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Author Topic: Orthodox and Catholic Canon of Scripture  (Read 3109 times) Average Rating: 0
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Brigid of Kildare
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« on: January 06, 2003, 05:34:34 AM »

In a link I followed from the ROCOR Cafe Site to some pages called 'Scripture Meeting Tradition', my attention was caught by point 7 of the list of differences between Orthodox and Latin Catholics:

7. Latin Catholicism defined their canon (finally) at Trent, basing it mostly on the early councils of Hippo and Carthage in the fourth and fifth centuries, and also on Jerome's scholarship (e.g., the Vulgate). Orthodoxy has never spoken finally and authoritatively on the canon of scripture, leaving the doctrine of the canon open to intepretation. [2] This is not to say that every Orthodox Christian can choose what he wants regarding the canon, but there is certainly much more flexibility in the Orthodox Church on this issue. It should also be noted that many Orthodox accept more (Old Testament) books than are in the Catholic canon as established at Trent.
http://www.geocities.com/stainlesskings888/latinorthodoxdifferences.html

Could someone explain what these additional OT books are?

Brigid
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2003, 10:02:17 AM »

Brigid, sister in Christ: Joy of the Feast to you!

I'm preparing to leave for church, so one quick answer before I do.

The Orthodox Church includes David's 151st Psalm in its OT canon of Scripture, even though the 151st Psalm is not used liturgically.  THe 151st Psalm is generally printed in Orthodox Psalters.  The Latins generally ignore this Psalm altogether.

The Septuagint version of the OT, which is the official version used by the Orthodox Church, does include more than the Latin Vulgate, which was originally based on the Septuagint, but seems to have been somehow influenced by the NT Hebrew version since the time of Blessed Jerome, if I'm not mistaken, and is somewhat shorter.

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Mexican
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2003, 07:26:33 PM »

I've noticed that St Jerome's Vulgate has all the Books of the Orthodox Bible, but the modern Catholic Bibles lack the Prayer of Manases, the Esdras III (the history of Filopator) and Machabees III. Why??
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TonyS
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2003, 08:47:43 PM »

Brigid, sister in Christ: Joy of the Feast to you!

I'm preparing to leave for church, so one quick answer before I do.

The Orthodox Church includes David's 151st Psalm in its OT canon of Scripture, even though the 151st Psalm is not used liturgically.  THe 151st Psalm is generally printed in Orthodox Psalters.  The Latins generally ignore this Psalm altogether.

The Septuagint version of the OT, which is the official version used by the Orthodox Church, does include more than the Latin Vulgate, which was originally based on the Septuagint, but seems to have been somehow influenced by the NT Hebrew version since the time of Blessed Jerome, if I'm not mistaken, and is somewhat shorter.

Hypo-Ortho

Friends,

The NT does not exist in an ancient Hebrew version, the NT was written in Greek with a tiny amount of Aramaic.  So, the NT did not influence the OT in this scenario.

Blessed Jerome allegedly worked from Hebrew texts for the OT.  Where Hebrew texts were not available he relegate those books for which he could not find a Hebrew version to an appendix.  

This appears to be a good site for infomation about this:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/vul/

Note the remark "it includes several of the Apocrypha" not all.  

Tony
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2003, 08:53:53 PM »

Regarding the differences between canons, the graphic at this page is helpful: http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/otbooks.html

The additional books accepted by some Orthodox include Psalm 151, 3 Maccabees, 1 Esdras (I think Catholics would call this 3 Esdras), and a few other texts here and there (e.g., I think there are a couple endings to Job floating around).

The Vulgate did indeed contain more texts than modern Catholic Bible's now contain (one reason I said in the original text quoted from my page that the Catholics didn't finally establish their canon definately until Trent). Jerome did not really want to use these additional books, but was sort of "pushed" into it. Jerome, after having had numerous discussions with many Jews at the time, became (very falsely) convinced that the Hebrew text was superior. In the end, the additional books of the so-called OT apocrypha (or deuterocanon) got in anyway. Some of these books continued to be in the Catholic Bible translations up through the 16th century, though at Trent what came to be known as the modern Catholic canon was formally accepted.
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2003, 10:26:53 PM »

Tony<<The NT does not exist in an ancient Hebrew version, the NT was written in Greek with a tiny amount of Aramaic.  So, the NT did not influence the OT in this scenario.>>

Agreed, Tony.  I was in a hurry and worded my response to Brigid poorly.  I was referring to the Hebrew version of the OT to which Blessed Jerome had access.

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nilus
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« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2003, 04:23:15 AM »

We include all of the Anglican Apocrypha and 3 and 4 Maccabees and Psalm 151.
Nilus
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« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2003, 05:56:51 AM »

4 Macc. is always an appendix, and is usually associated with the (ethnically) Greek Church(es).
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SamB
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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2003, 01:48:02 AM »

7. Latin Catholicism defined their canon (finally) at Trent

Upon obtaining some information, I thought I'd pull this thread back to the top for a moment.

I have it on the authority of a very sharp mind that the Tridentine canon is not necessarily permanently closed.  Conceivably, one day the entire Anaginoskomena from both Vulgate and Septuagint could be introduced, perhaps even the Ethiopian books.

Speaking of which, Aklie, what's the story from one of your books concerning the offspring of giants and angels?  Did the X-Files producers actually rummage through the Ethiopian canon to create their episode on the nephelym?  Grin

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« Last Edit: January 26, 2003, 01:51:15 AM by SamB » Logged
Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2003, 02:47:58 AM »

SamB<<I have it on the authority of a very sharp mind that the Tridentine canon is not necessarily permanently closed.>>

So you've spoken with John Paul II, have you?   Wink
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SamB
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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2003, 02:06:41 PM »

Jean Cretien actually.

Heh, heh.

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