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Author Topic: Link builds between weather extremes and warming  (Read 3525 times) Average Rating: 0
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2012, 01:56:33 AM »

Regarding New Orleans: Whose bright idea was it to build a city on a river delta in a hurricane zone, anyway? Roll Eyes

I ask the same question about the river towns along the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers... At least in Missouri the French did a good job of locating their trading posts and forts on the cliffs, who the heck decided to build towns in the flood plain? lol

Of course, you could ask a similar question about Venice, which is gonna sink in the next few centuries, or Mexico City which is also sinking...
Mexico City? Huh Dude, that city has an altitude of over one mile above sea level! Shocked It may be sinking due to seismic forces, but it's hardly in danger of inundation by sea water any time soon.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 01:57:25 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
88Devin12
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« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2012, 02:11:30 AM »

Regarding New Orleans: Whose bright idea was it to build a city on a river delta in a hurricane zone, anyway? Roll Eyes

I ask the same question about the river towns along the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers... At least in Missouri the French did a good job of locating their trading posts and forts on the cliffs, who the heck decided to build towns in the flood plain? lol

Of course, you could ask a similar question about Venice, which is gonna sink in the next few centuries, or Mexico City which is also sinking...
Mexico City? Huh Dude, that city has an altitude of over one mile above sea level! Shocked It may be sinking due to seismic forces, but it's hardly in danger of inundation by sea water any time soon.

Its sinking because its built almost entirely on land which was once the lake bed for a major lake. It was Tenochtitlan, capital of the Aztec Empire, which was built on an island, and they subsequently built outwards from that island over the lake, today the lake is no longer there, but the ground isn't stable and so a lot of the city is sinking slowly into the lake bed.

Artists rendering of Tenochtitlan:




Basically the areas with the canals around them are the pieces of land the Aztecs "built" over the lake so they could inhabit and farm more land around the protected island.

Today Mexico City encompasses pretty much what was once that entire lake.

This map shows a blue line where the lake once was:
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age234
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« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2012, 08:34:42 AM »

Just like concern over temperature, concern over sea level ignores history. 450 MYA the level was as much as 400m (a quarter mile!) higher than it is now.



What is this concern over a few inches or feet? The sea level is historically low in our times and there is no reasonable thought that the present level is either normal or static.

And of course, many factors drive sea level besides climate.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 08:36:13 AM by age234 » Logged
88Devin12
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« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2012, 11:20:12 AM »

Just like concern over temperature, concern over sea level ignores history. 450 MYA the level was as much as 400m (a quarter mile!) higher than it is now.



What is this concern over a few inches or feet? The sea level is historically low in our times and there is no reasonable thought that the present level is either normal or static.

And of course, many factors drive sea level besides climate.

You don't realize that it takes millions of years for major sea level changes to happen. Mere feet concerns us because it has immediate consequences.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2012, 01:11:03 PM »

Just like concern over temperature, concern over sea level ignores history. 450 MYA the level was as much as 400m (a quarter mile!) higher than it is now.



What is this concern over a few inches or feet? The sea level is historically low in our times and there is no reasonable thought that the present level is either normal or static.

And of course, many factors drive sea level besides climate.

You don't realize that it takes millions of years for major sea level changes to happen. Mere feet concerns us because it has immediate consequences.
So move inland.
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88Devin12
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« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2012, 03:32:35 PM »

Just like concern over temperature, concern over sea level ignores history. 450 MYA the level was as much as 400m (a quarter mile!) higher than it is now.



What is this concern over a few inches or feet? The sea level is historically low in our times and there is no reasonable thought that the present level is either normal or static.

And of course, many factors drive sea level besides climate.

You don't realize that it takes millions of years for major sea level changes to happen. Mere feet concerns us because it has immediate consequences.
So move inland.

I'm as inland as you can get... The point is that we are going to lose billions of dollars of investment on our shores. It might be due to global warming, it may be due to human pollution, who knows... But we are making the problem worse.

You have to understand that with environmental problems, we can't have a "just deal with it" attitude. Besides, that is very irresponsible. (though very American, sadly)
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2012, 05:55:19 PM »

Regarding New Orleans: Whose bright idea was it to build a city on a river delta in a hurricane zone, anyway? Roll Eyes

White people. They're crazy nuts.
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« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2012, 05:57:25 PM »

Just like concern over temperature, concern over sea level ignores history. 450 MYA the level was as much as 400m (a quarter mile!) higher than it is now.



What is this concern over a few inches or feet? The sea level is historically low in our times and there is no reasonable thought that the present level is either normal or static.

And of course, many factors drive sea level besides climate.

You don't realize that it takes millions of years for major sea level changes to happen. Mere feet concerns us because it has immediate consequences.

LOL. Recalculate your years. And read more ancient history. Several ancient cities like Ephesus and Troy were on the water. Sea levels were higher mere thousands of years ago.
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« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2012, 06:11:24 PM »

You don't realize that it takes millions of years for major sea level changes to happen. Mere feet concerns us because it has immediate consequences.

Ah, not so!



After the last ice age, sea levels rose over 100m in just 10,000 years.

So I ask: whereas sea levels have risen and fallen drastically (and not drastically) all throughout history, and whereas we are presently at a historic low point of sea levels, why should we be surprised that it's rising?

It's a little like having a freak winter that goes down to -50º for three weeks, then panicking when it rises to -47º.

And, aside from the fact that we build cities on coastlines, why does it matter? We build cities in risky places, and we should accept that eventually nature will do what it wants.

I mean, does anyone honestly think that, without manmade greenhouse gases, the seas would stay at their current levels forever and ever?

You have to understand that with environmental problems, we can't have a "just deal with it" attitude. Besides, that is very irresponsible. (though very American, sadly)

It's not the American way, it's nature's way. We are a tiny part of a much larger system. So like all organisms, we "just deal with it" (i.e. adapt). Or we can refuse to adapt and chase ghosts and transient theories about why nature is changing, just live on the coasts and drown as we curse the inevitable rising water, but that's not good for the species.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 06:15:40 PM by age234 » Logged
88Devin12
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« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2012, 12:40:35 AM »

You don't realize that it takes millions of years for major sea level changes to happen. Mere feet concerns us because it has immediate consequences.

Ah, not so!



After the last ice age, sea levels rose over 100m in just 10,000 years.

So I ask: whereas sea levels have risen and fallen drastically (and not drastically) all throughout history, and whereas we are presently at a historic low point of sea levels, why should we be surprised that it's rising?

It's a little like having a freak winter that goes down to -50º for three weeks, then panicking when it rises to -47º.

And, aside from the fact that we build cities on coastlines, why does it matter? We build cities in risky places, and we should accept that eventually nature will do what it wants.

I mean, does anyone honestly think that, without manmade greenhouse gases, the seas would stay at their current levels forever and ever?

You have to understand that with environmental problems, we can't have a "just deal with it" attitude. Besides, that is very irresponsible. (though very American, sadly)

It's not the American way, it's nature's way. We are a tiny part of a much larger system. So like all organisms, we "just deal with it" (i.e. adapt). Or we can refuse to adapt and chase ghosts and transient theories about why nature is changing, just live on the coasts and drown as we curse the inevitable rising water, but that's not good for the species.

You do realize that tens of thousands of years is still a long time right? 10,000 is only how long civilization (as we know it) has existed. Prior to that we were Pre-Historic living in caves and like nomads.

So are you saying mankind has jack to do with the rising temperatures? Explain the ozone hole to me (which is now patching up thankfully)...
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2012, 02:00:09 AM »

You don't realize that it takes millions of years for major sea level changes to happen. Mere feet concerns us because it has immediate consequences.

Ah, not so!



After the last ice age, sea levels rose over 100m in just 10,000 years.

So I ask: whereas sea levels have risen and fallen drastically (and not drastically) all throughout history, and whereas we are presently at a historic low point of sea levels, why should we be surprised that it's rising?

It's a little like having a freak winter that goes down to -50º for three weeks, then panicking when it rises to -47º.

And, aside from the fact that we build cities on coastlines, why does it matter? We build cities in risky places, and we should accept that eventually nature will do what it wants.

I mean, does anyone honestly think that, without manmade greenhouse gases, the seas would stay at their current levels forever and ever?

You have to understand that with environmental problems, we can't have a "just deal with it" attitude. Besides, that is very irresponsible. (though very American, sadly)

It's not the American way, it's nature's way. We are a tiny part of a much larger system. So like all organisms, we "just deal with it" (i.e. adapt). Or we can refuse to adapt and chase ghosts and transient theories about why nature is changing, just live on the coasts and drown as we curse the inevitable rising water, but that's not good for the species.

You do realize that tens of thousands of years is still a long time right? 10,000 is only how long civilization (as we know it) has existed. Prior to that we were Pre-Historic living in caves and like nomads.

So are you saying mankind has jack to do with the rising temperatures?
I don't think he's saying that. I think what he's saying is that the climate change we're causing or helping cause (assuming we have any influence on climate at all) pales in comparison to the changes in climate we've seen in the historic record and that you therefore need to grasp a much larger historical perspective than just the last 50-100 years.
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age234
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« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2012, 10:06:43 AM »

You do realize that tens of thousands of years is still a long time right? 10,000 is only how long civilization (as we know it) has existed. Prior to that we were Pre-Historic living in caves and like nomads.

But if you look at an average rate, 100m in 10,000 years is 1cm per year. Compared to the last century or so:



Which says 2mm/year on average. We are freaking out about sea levels rising at 20% the rate they have in geologically recent times. (and with zero pollution to boot)

What I'm saying is that the modern warming, whatever the cause, is insignificant considering the changes humans have survived and thrived under. So again, why is this bad?

And I still would like to know why we define an artificial ideal at X temperature and Y sea level, when climate and sea levels change all the time, and drastically at that. Who are we to say what it should be, aside from the normal human dislike of change?

Quote
So are you saying mankind has jack to do with the rising temperatures? Explain the ozone hole to me (which is now patching up thankfully)...

I would say, as Peter accurately surmised, that it makes no difference. People need to acknowledge there are larger forces at work (such as the sun, whose output is not constant either, and probably many things we do not understand). Any impact we may have is insignificant among all these other systems.

As GiC said earlier, would enacting all these countermeasures do more harm than good? Probably, because we do not know if it will do any good. If the sun is going through a hot phase, or of sea floor building is raising ocean levels, we could go back to the caveman days and the earth would still be changing.

I don't know enough about the ozone layer to comment.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 10:12:29 AM by age234 » Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2012, 12:51:15 PM »

I really do not understand by folks are using facts in this pointless debate with Devin. He has made up his mind and nothing that anybody says will disturb his adolescent certitudes. I hasten to point out that I am referring to his age (23) that falls scientifically in the adolescence age group. I am not in any way suggesting that his views are juvenile, childish or sophomoric.
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« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2012, 12:57:37 PM »

I really do not understand by folks are using facts in this pointless debate with Devin. He has made up his mind and nothing that anybody says will disturb his adolescent certitudes. I hasten to point out that I am referring to his age (23) that falls scientifically in the adolescence age group. I am not in any way suggesting that his views are juvenile, childish or sophomoric.

I would honestly like to know how many of you have actually taken college courses on the subject. I'm not saying I'm an expert by any means. I know far more about the built environment and harms it causes when done poorly than I do about the environment. But I would much rather trust my professor (who worked for NASA and was almost part of the group that went with the Columbia) than I would most of you.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2012, 01:16:42 PM »

I really do not understand by folks are using facts in this pointless debate with Devin. He has made up his mind and nothing that anybody says will disturb his adolescent certitudes. I hasten to point out that I am referring to his age (23) that falls scientifically in the adolescence age group. I am not in any way suggesting that his views are juvenile, childish or sophomoric.

I would honestly like to know how many of you have actually taken college courses on the subject. I'm not saying I'm an expert by any means. I know far more about the built environment and harms it causes when done poorly than I do about the environment. But I would much rather trust my professor (who worked for NASA and was almost part of the group that went with the Columbia) than I would most of you.
Okay. Undecided  Maybe you should go back to the college that gave you your degree and ask for a complete refund, for it seems they didn't teach you how to think for yourself.
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« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2012, 01:29:35 PM »

I really do not understand by folks are using facts in this pointless debate with Devin. He has made up his mind and nothing that anybody says will disturb his adolescent certitudes. I hasten to point out that I am referring to his age (23) that falls scientifically in the adolescence age group. I am not in any way suggesting that his views are juvenile, childish or sophomoric.

I would honestly like to know how many of you have actually taken college courses on the subject. I'm not saying I'm an expert by any means. I know far more about the built environment and harms it causes when done poorly than I do about the environment. But I would much rather trust my professor (who worked for NASA and was almost part of the group that went with the Columbia) than I would most of you.

Sounds like the problem here is not your professor but you. There are many respectable scientists who would not agree with your professor and yet you seem to have bought only one side of the argument. Let me be more specific, you argue less like a student and more like a zealous member of a religious cult. I think you have been brainwashed but I think you welcomed it. So much for the scientific approach and temperament.
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« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2012, 03:11:27 PM »

I really do not understand by folks are using facts in this pointless debate with Devin. He has made up his mind and nothing that anybody says will disturb his adolescent certitudes. I hasten to point out that I am referring to his age (23) that falls scientifically in the adolescence age group. I am not in any way suggesting that his views are juvenile, childish or sophomoric.

I would honestly like to know how many of you have actually taken college courses on the subject. I'm not saying I'm an expert by any means. I know far more about the built environment and harms it causes when done poorly than I do about the environment. But I would much rather trust my professor (who worked for NASA and was almost part of the group that went with the Columbia) than I would most of you.
Okay. Undecided  Maybe you should go back to the college that gave you your degree and ask for a complete refund, for it seems they didn't teach you how to think for yourself.

Why do I need to think for myself? I have the Church to tell me what to believe on most important things. I have the Fathers to tell me and guide me on everything else. I have scholars, intellectuals and professionals to tell me the facts we know.
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« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2012, 03:15:19 PM »

Why do I need to think for myself?

Oh, wow.


Wow.
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« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2012, 03:21:13 PM »

Why do I need to think for myself?

Oh, wow.


Wow.

At least I'm not buying into the bull that a bunch of godless deists and atheists decided to conjure up in the so-called "Enlightenment". That is the worst era to ever occur on the face of this earth. I don't buy into the new-age "enlightenment" style "Free-Thinking".

The 'Enlightenment" era was full of evil ideas and godless people, especially once we reached the creation of the United States and the godless deists that created it like Franklin and Jefferson.

We were far better off when the government and the church would burn the books and writings of heretics and exile them outside of the nations, banning them from ever returning to mislead people.
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« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2012, 03:32:23 PM »

Why do I need to think for myself?

Oh, wow.


Wow.

At least I'm not buying into the bull that a bunch of godless deists and atheists decided to conjure up in the so-called "Enlightenment". That is the worst era to ever occur on the face of this earth. I don't buy into the new-age "enlightenment" style "Free-Thinking".

The 'Enlightenment" era was full of evil ideas and godless people, especially once we reached the creation of the United States and the godless deists that created it like Franklin and Jefferson.

We were far better off when the government and the church would burn the books and writings of heretics and exile them outside of the nations, banning them from ever returning to mislead people.

Are you high?

Like right now. High. There is something funny smelling about your clothes.
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« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2012, 03:39:13 PM »

Why do I need to think for myself?

Oh, wow.


Wow.

At least I'm not buying into the bull that a bunch of godless deists and atheists decided to conjure up in the so-called "Enlightenment". That is the worst era to ever occur on the face of this earth. I don't buy into the new-age "enlightenment" style "Free-Thinking".

The 'Enlightenment" era was full of evil ideas and godless people, especially once we reached the creation of the United States and the godless deists that created it like Franklin and Jefferson.

We were far better off when the government and the church would burn the books and writings of heretics and exile them outside of the nations, banning them from ever returning to mislead people.

Are you high?

Like right now. High. There is something funny smelling about your clothes.

Certainly not, I'm thinking clearly.
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stanley123
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« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2012, 03:44:03 PM »

It's junk science.
Does anyone doubt that carbon dioxide emissions have been growing?
See: "Carbon Emissions Show Biggest Jump Ever Recorded."
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/05/science/earth/record-jump-in-emissions-in-2010-study-finds.html
http://earth.rice.edu/mtpe/atmo/atmosphere/hot/anom_99/co2_in2.html
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« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2012, 03:49:27 PM »

We were far better off when the government and the church would burn the books and writings of heretics and exile them outside of the nations, banning them from ever returning to mislead people.
Who will decide which books to burn? Perhaps we could put Rick Santorum in charge, or would Nancy Pelosi be better?
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« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2012, 03:51:46 PM »

We were far better off when the government and the church would burn the books and writings of heretics and exile them outside of the nations, banning them from ever returning to mislead people.
Who will decide which books to burn? Perhaps we could put Rick Santorum in charge, or would Nancy Pelosi be better?

A democracy isn't a Christian-style of government. A Christian style of government requires a top-down administration, that means that it needs to have an Emperor, a King, a Queen or some other Monarch.
The Church would be the one to burn the books, and the state would be the one to exile the heretic.
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« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2012, 03:55:49 PM »

A democracy isn't a Christian-style of government. A Christian style of government requires a top-down administration, that means that it needs to have an Emperor, a King, a Queen or some other Monarch.
Is this written down somewhere in the Bible or in a Church council, that this is the only Christian style of government?
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« Reply #70 on: March 31, 2012, 03:57:39 PM »

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« Reply #71 on: March 31, 2012, 03:59:53 PM »


The Church would be the one to burn the books, and the state would be the one to exile the heretic.
Would the Church burn the books of Confucius? Or the Koran or the Bhagavad-Gita?
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« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2012, 04:00:11 PM »

You don't realize that it takes millions of years for major sea level changes to happen. Mere feet concerns us because it has immediate consequences.

Ah, not so!



After the last ice age, sea levels rose over 100m in just 10,000 years.

So I ask: whereas sea levels have risen and fallen drastically (and not drastically) all throughout history, and whereas we are presently at a historic low point of sea levels, why should we be surprised that it's rising?

It's a little like having a freak winter that goes down to -50º for three weeks, then panicking when it rises to -47º.

And, aside from the fact that we build cities on coastlines, why does it matter? We build cities in risky places, and we should accept that eventually nature will do what it wants.

I mean, does anyone honestly think that, without manmade greenhouse gases, the seas would stay at their current levels forever and ever?

You have to understand that with environmental problems, we can't have a "just deal with it" attitude. Besides, that is very irresponsible. (though very American, sadly)

It's not the American way, it's nature's way. We are a tiny part of a much larger system. So like all organisms, we "just deal with it" (i.e. adapt). Or we can refuse to adapt and chase ghosts and transient theories about why nature is changing, just live on the coasts and drown as we curse the inevitable rising water, but that's not good for the species.

You do realize that tens of thousands of years is still a long time right? 10,000 is only how long civilization (as we know it) has existed. Prior to that we were Pre-Historic living in caves and like nomads.

So are you saying mankind has jack to do with the rising temperatures? Explain the ozone hole to me (which is now patching up thankfully)...

I think one point is that if primitive man could find a way to adapt to the weather (which was more due to migration than climate change...but still...), shouldn't we be able to with all our fancy toys and modern know-how? I mean, if someone with nothing but a spear and animal skins can manage to thrive above the article circle, why couldn't we figure out how to live in a different environment. And the climatologists keep saying that no matter what we do, it won't be enough, much of the damage is already done...so why focus on stopping something we can't stop? Why not just work on dealing with the implications.

And getting to the implications, what exactly do you think the implications will be. First you were staying that we would have to contend with rising sea levels, then you said that the polar regions would get colder and it would only warm around the equator. Wouldn't that mean more ice on the poles and receding sea levels? And why have I continuously heard that the effect is going to be magnified in the polar regions, that's supposedly why all the ice caps are going to melt? Either we get new warm locations at northern latitudes to build cities and agriculture along with the opening of the northwest passage, or we get receding sea levels, the draining of swamps, more land area, and more coast line... sadly we can't have both, but which one do we get? And everyone's always talking about carbon causing global warming, but here you're asking about the hole in the ozone, so which one's the problem?
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« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2012, 04:01:09 PM »

A democracy isn't a Christian-style of government. A Christian style of government requires a top-down administration, that means that it needs to have an Emperor, a King, a Queen or some other Monarch.
Is this written down somewhere in the Bible or in a Church council, that this is the only Christian style of government?

We don't believe in Sola Scriptura nor Sola Concilium...

But the only style of government in the Bible ordained by God is/was a monarchy. The only Orthodox nations were monarchies/empires.

Democracy, at least American democracy, comes from deists and non-Christians. It cannot be "Christian"...
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« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2012, 04:02:26 PM »

You don't realize that it takes millions of years for major sea level changes to happen. Mere feet concerns us because it has immediate consequences.

Ah, not so!



After the last ice age, sea levels rose over 100m in just 10,000 years.

So I ask: whereas sea levels have risen and fallen drastically (and not drastically) all throughout history, and whereas we are presently at a historic low point of sea levels, why should we be surprised that it's rising?

It's a little like having a freak winter that goes down to -50º for three weeks, then panicking when it rises to -47º.

And, aside from the fact that we build cities on coastlines, why does it matter? We build cities in risky places, and we should accept that eventually nature will do what it wants.

I mean, does anyone honestly think that, without manmade greenhouse gases, the seas would stay at their current levels forever and ever?

You have to understand that with environmental problems, we can't have a "just deal with it" attitude. Besides, that is very irresponsible. (though very American, sadly)

It's not the American way, it's nature's way. We are a tiny part of a much larger system. So like all organisms, we "just deal with it" (i.e. adapt). Or we can refuse to adapt and chase ghosts and transient theories about why nature is changing, just live on the coasts and drown as we curse the inevitable rising water, but that's not good for the species.

You do realize that tens of thousands of years is still a long time right? 10,000 is only how long civilization (as we know it) has existed. Prior to that we were Pre-Historic living in caves and like nomads.

So are you saying mankind has jack to do with the rising temperatures? Explain the ozone hole to me (which is now patching up thankfully)...

I think one point is that if primitive man could find a way to adapt to the weather (which was more due to migration than climate change...but still...), shouldn't we be able to with all our fancy toys and modern know-how? I mean, if someone with nothing but a spear and animal skins can manage to thrive above the article circle, why couldn't we figure out how to live in a different environment. And the climatologists keep saying that no matter what we do, it won't be enough, much of the damage is already done...so why focus on stopping something we can't stop? Why not just work on dealing with the implications.

And getting to the implications, what exactly do you think the implications will be. First you were staying that we would have to contend with rising sea levels, then you said that the polar regions would get colder and it would only warm around the equator. Wouldn't that mean more ice on the poles and receding sea levels? And why have I continuously heard that the effect is going to be magnified in the polar regions, that's supposedly why all the ice caps are going to melt? Either we get new warm locations at northern latitudes to build cities and agriculture along with the opening of the northwest passage, or we get receding sea levels, the draining of swamps, more land area, and more coast line... sadly we can't have both, but which one do we get? And everyone's always talking about carbon causing global warming, but here you're asking about the hole in the ozone, so which one's the problem?

Where did I say that? All I mentioned was the disruption of the Gulf Stream in the Atlantic which would cause a cooling of Western and Northern Europe.


That bulge up in Europe is due to the Gulf Stream from the Gulf of Mexico. If that is disrupted from the glacial melting, then Europe will cool.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 04:03:47 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #75 on: March 31, 2012, 04:03:07 PM »

The only Orthodox nations were monarchies/empires.
Romania is an Orthodox nation and it is a democracy.
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« Reply #76 on: March 31, 2012, 04:05:28 PM »

The only Orthodox nations were monarchies/empires.
Romania is an Orthodox nation and it is a democracy.

According to its constitution, it's secular. To be Orthodox, Orthodoxy needs to be the official state religion and the only religion supported by the state. The Church and the State also need to work together in tandem.
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« Reply #77 on: March 31, 2012, 04:07:12 PM »

I really do not understand by folks are using facts in this pointless debate with Devin. He has made up his mind and nothing that anybody says will disturb his adolescent certitudes. I hasten to point out that I am referring to his age (23) that falls scientifically in the adolescence age group. I am not in any way suggesting that his views are juvenile, childish or sophomoric.

Really? I didn't realize he was even close to being that old. That makes his argument about this being important to his generation even more absurd. I was starting to feel bad for picking on him, but not anymore. Wink
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« Reply #78 on: March 31, 2012, 04:10:30 PM »

But the only style of government in the Bible

What types of governments were available at the time?
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« Reply #79 on: March 31, 2012, 04:11:03 PM »

Why do I need to think for myself?

Ah, I think we've gotten to the heart of the problem here. Don't worry, it's the first step to recovery. Let's start with this, next time your professor makes an unsubstantiated point, ask him for the data, ask him to walk you guys through the model. I know in math and physicists, professors quite appreciate questions like this, it demonstrates that the student is starting to grasp the subject and is thinking about it properly. They also know it's a fair question, since it would be absurd for you to accept something just because they said it. I wonder if your professor would respond as favorably as mine did?
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« Reply #80 on: March 31, 2012, 04:31:27 PM »

The only Orthodox nations were monarchies/empires.
Romania is an Orthodox nation and it is a democracy.

According to its constitution, it's secular. To be Orthodox, Orthodoxy needs to be the official state religion and the only religion supported by the state. The Church and the State also need to work together in tandem.
Are you then saying that Romania is not an Orthodox country? Other sources say differently, for example:
1. Wiki answers lists Romania as an Eastern Orthodox country:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_all_of_the_Eastern_Orthodox_countries
2. The title of the following youtube video is:
Romania Orthodox Country
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoiaksDei5k
3. And according to the NY Times,  Romania is an Orthodox country.
For First Time, a Pope Visits an Orthodox Country
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/08/world/for-first-time-a-pope-visits-an-orthodox-country.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

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« Reply #81 on: March 31, 2012, 04:34:22 PM »

The only Orthodox nations were monarchies/empires.
Romania is an Orthodox nation and it is a democracy.

According to its constitution, it's secular. To be Orthodox, Orthodoxy needs to be the official state religion and the only religion supported by the state. The Church and the State also need to work together in tandem.
Are you then saying that Romania is not an Orthodox country? Other sources say differently, for example:
1. Wiki answers lists Romania as an Eastern Orthodox country:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_all_of_the_Eastern_Orthodox_countries
2. The title of the following youtube video is:
Romania Orthodox Country
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoiaksDei5k
3. And according to the NY Times,  Romania is an Orthodox country.
For First Time, a Pope Visits an Orthodox Country
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/08/world/for-first-time-a-pope-visits-an-orthodox-country.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm



The people certainly are, the government is not. Same for Greece and Russia.

If you want to know what an Orthodox govt looks like, look to the Roman and Russian Empires.
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« Reply #82 on: March 31, 2012, 04:55:47 PM »

I really do not understand by folks are using facts in this pointless debate with Devin. He has made up his mind and nothing that anybody says will disturb his adolescent certitudes. I hasten to point out that I am referring to his age (23) that falls scientifically in the adolescence age group. I am not in any way suggesting that his views are juvenile, childish or sophomoric.

I would honestly like to know how many of you have actually taken college courses on the subject. I'm not saying I'm an expert by any means. I know far more about the built environment and harms it causes when done poorly than I do about the environment. But I would much rather trust my professor (who worked for NASA and was almost part of the group that went with the Columbia) than I would most of you.

Was he the one who told you Mexico City was sinking due to rising sea levels?
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« Reply #83 on: March 31, 2012, 04:56:10 PM »

The only Orthodox nations were monarchies/empires.
Romania is an Orthodox nation and it is a democracy.

According to its constitution, it's secular. To be Orthodox, Orthodoxy needs to be the official state religion and the only religion supported by the state. The Church and the State also need to work together in tandem.
Are you then saying that Romania is not an Orthodox country? Other sources say differently, for example:
1. Wiki answers lists Romania as an Eastern Orthodox country:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_all_of_the_Eastern_Orthodox_countries
2. The title of the following youtube video is:
Romania Orthodox Country
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoiaksDei5k
3. And according to the NY Times,  Romania is an Orthodox country.
For First Time, a Pope Visits an Orthodox Country
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/08/world/for-first-time-a-pope-visits-an-orthodox-country.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm



The people certainly are, the government is not. Same for Greece and Russia.

If you want to know what an Orthodox govt looks like, look to the Roman and Russian Empires.

sometimes when noone is home i enjoy seperating m&m's into colour groups and pretending they're little villages of people with their own economic and social problems, and then i try to fix them through free trade agreements and other diplomatic measures
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« Reply #84 on: March 31, 2012, 04:57:14 PM »

I really do not understand by folks are using facts in this pointless debate with Devin. He has made up his mind and nothing that anybody says will disturb his adolescent certitudes. I hasten to point out that I am referring to his age (23) that falls scientifically in the adolescence age group. I am not in any way suggesting that his views are juvenile, childish or sophomoric.

I would honestly like to know how many of you have actually taken college courses on the subject. I'm not saying I'm an expert by any means. I know far more about the built environment and harms it causes when done poorly than I do about the environment. But I would much rather trust my professor (who worked for NASA and was almost part of the group that went with the Columbia) than I would most of you.
Okay. Undecided  Maybe you should go back to the college that gave you your degree and ask for a complete refund, for it seems they didn't teach you how to think for yourself.

Why do I need to think for myself? I have the Church to tell me what to believe on most important things. I have the Fathers to tell me and guide me on everything else. I have scholars, intellectuals and professionals to tell me the facts we know.

Then ask God to take back the gift of reason he gave you. It was really quite silly of Him to give it to you.
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« Reply #85 on: March 31, 2012, 04:58:08 PM »

Why do I need to think for myself?

Oh, wow.


Wow.

At least I'm not buying into the bull that a bunch of godless deists and atheists decided to conjure up in the so-called "Enlightenment". That is the worst era to ever occur on the face of this earth. I don't buy into the new-age "enlightenment" style "Free-Thinking".

The 'Enlightenment" era was full of evil ideas and godless people, especially once we reached the creation of the United States and the godless deists that created it like Franklin and Jefferson.

We were far better off when the government and the church would burn the books and writings of heretics and exile them outside of the nations, banning them from ever returning to mislead people.

Thought did not begin in the Enlightenment. The Holy Fathers were actually quite great thinkers.
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« Reply #86 on: March 31, 2012, 04:58:50 PM »

Why do I need to think for myself?

Oh, wow.


Wow.

At least I'm not buying into the bull that a bunch of godless deists and atheists decided to conjure up in the so-called "Enlightenment". That is the worst era to ever occur on the face of this earth. I don't buy into the new-age "enlightenment" style "Free-Thinking".

The 'Enlightenment" era was full of evil ideas and godless people, especially once we reached the creation of the United States and the godless deists that created it like Franklin and Jefferson.

We were far better off when the government and the church would burn the books and writings of heretics and exile them outside of the nations, banning them from ever returning to mislead people.

Are you high?

Like right now. High. There is something funny smelling about your clothes.

Certainly not, I'm thinking clearly.

But you just said it wasn't necessary for you to think at all.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #87 on: March 31, 2012, 05:08:27 PM »

I really do not understand by folks are using facts in this pointless debate with Devin. He has made up his mind and nothing that anybody says will disturb his adolescent certitudes. I hasten to point out that I am referring to his age (23) that falls scientifically in the adolescence age group. I am not in any way suggesting that his views are juvenile, childish or sophomoric.

I would honestly like to know how many of you have actually taken college courses on the subject. I'm not saying I'm an expert by any means. I know far more about the built environment and harms it causes when done poorly than I do about the environment. But I would much rather trust my professor (who worked for NASA and was almost part of the group that went with the Columbia) than I would most of you.

Was he the one who told you Mexico City was sinking due to rising sea levels?

I swear you don't read a thing I say... If you don't read what I say then don't reply!
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« Reply #88 on: March 31, 2012, 05:13:15 PM »

I really do not understand by folks are using facts in this pointless debate with Devin. He has made up his mind and nothing that anybody says will disturb his adolescent certitudes. I hasten to point out that I am referring to his age (23) that falls scientifically in the adolescence age group. I am not in any way suggesting that his views are juvenile, childish or sophomoric.

I would honestly like to know how many of you have actually taken college courses on the subject. I'm not saying I'm an expert by any means. I know far more about the built environment and harms it causes when done poorly than I do about the environment. But I would much rather trust my professor (who worked for NASA and was almost part of the group that went with the Columbia) than I would most of you.

Was he the one who told you Mexico City was sinking due to rising sea levels?

I swear you don't read a thing I say... If you don't read what I say then don't reply!

I have read what you wrote. I wonder why you write it.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #89 on: March 31, 2012, 06:30:13 PM »

In the news:
"Scientists warn of 'emergency on global scale'"
"In a "State of the Planet" declaration issued after a four-day conference, the scientists said Earth was now facing unprecedented challenges, from water stress, pollution and species loss to spiralling demands for food."
http://news.yahoo.com/scientists-warn-emergency-global-scale-185118563.html
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