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Author Topic: More on the 'Why We Left' study of dissaffected Catholics  (Read 1226 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jetavan
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« on: March 27, 2012, 11:25:50 AM »

Quote
    “It is no secret that increasing numbers of baptized Catholics in the United States never or rarely attend Sunday Mass. In the late fall of 2011, we asked some of them a simple question: Why? At the request of Bishop David M. O’Connell, C.M., of Trenton, N.J., we surveyed nearly 300 nonchurchgoing Catholics in his diocese.”

Thus begins an article scheduled for the April 30, 2012, issue of America magazine by Jesuit William J. Byron and Charles Zech.
....
In the America article, the researchers, Zech and Byron, get a chance to speak for themselves about the data they collected. Two things struck me as I read the article:

1) The pain evident in comments from women:

    “I didn’t understand certain things and found no mentors within the church. I just stopped going because my community of friends and family were no longer in the church.” [23-year-old female]
....
    “Young mothers like me need help. Have women, as well as men, as greeters at Mass; make childcare available; encourage the formation of mothers’ groups; have the homilies speak to me.” [married white female, 29, now attending a Baptist church]

2) For the most part, the issues the exit surveys raise are not doctrinal issues. They are pastoral issues, or as Zech and Byron write, basic “customer relations.”
....
    “As much as I wanted to get involved and expand my faith, there were no clear avenues to do that. So it was just a place to attend Mass. … I was always alone in a crowd.”
    “No one misses the fact that we stopped going. No one has called from the parish even though we were regular attendees and envelope users!”
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2012, 03:10:13 PM »

Wait for the unreasonable criticisms of reasonable complaints.

And you wonder why the mega churches are mega?

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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2012, 03:25:54 PM »

Pastoral issues are serious. In my time in the RCC, I was blessed to have pastoral care that was probably better than most (being in small parishes with younger, less-jaded clergy probably helps), yet I still left. I'm not saying that more responsive pastoral care wouldn't address a lot of these issues, but I have noticed among the RCC this feeling that "if we let them have X, they'll stay" (e.g., "youth masses", inclusive language, etc.), which is a bit like putting a band-aid on a shark bite, in a lot of cases. Interviewing Catholics-turned-Baptists or gone completely inactive/secular/areligious probably steers the responses to certain territory that you would not find as relevant if you interviewed Catholics-turned-Orthodox, Catholics-turned-Muslim, Catholics-turned-Atheist, etc.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 03:26:16 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2012, 03:50:40 PM »

Much of the same criticism could be leveled against many Odox churches...
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2012, 03:52:34 PM »

Much of the same criticism could be leveled against many Odox churches...

From what I hear unfortunately.
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2012, 04:08:01 PM »

Much of the same criticism could be leveled against many Odox churches...

From what I hear unfortunately.

And, despite it all, the Catholic Church in this country, and worldwide, is actually growing in numbers.  At least according to the data here: http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2012, 04:16:09 PM »

With some Protestants there is this phobia of anything appearing "too Catholic". Unfortunately with some more traditional groups there is a phobia of things appearing "too Protestant". Don't want to get lumped in with the "seeker sensitive" or mega-church crowd...
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2012, 04:23:53 PM »

Much of the same criticism could be leveled against many Odox churches...

From what I hear unfortunately.

And, despite it all, the Catholic Church in this country, and worldwide, is actually growing in numbers.  At least according to the data here: http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html
Yes, but I think the growth in this country (USA) is due to the large Hispanic immigration adding to the Catholic population.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 04:24:06 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2012, 04:33:34 PM »

Much of the same criticism could be leveled against many Odox churches...

From what I hear unfortunately.

And, despite it all, the Catholic Church in this country, and worldwide, is actually growing in numbers.  At least according to the data here: http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html

I find it interesting that the number of priests in the US has fallen sharply, but the number of priests worldwide has remained fairly steady. I would guess (??) the issue in the US is a horrible cycle of not enough people becoming priests, which in turn means that there are less priests (=man hours) to devote to ministering to the flock, which results in some of the flock feeling neglected, which leads to more people leaving, which then leaves less people to be priests, which then... etc. etc.
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2012, 04:34:37 PM »

Much of the same criticism could be leveled against many Odox churches...

From what I hear unfortunately.

And, despite it all, the Catholic Church in this country, and worldwide, is actually growing in numbers.  At least according to the data here: http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html
Yes, but I think the growth in this country (USA) is due to the large Hispanic immigration adding to the Catholic population.

That's coming to a halt soon with the evos killing the RCs in LA.

The LAs are coming here already evoed out. I work with more than a few.
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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2012, 04:42:18 PM »

Much of the same criticism could be leveled against many Odox churches...

From what I hear unfortunately.

And, despite it all, the Catholic Church in this country, and worldwide, is actually growing in numbers.  At least according to the data here: http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html
Yes, but I think the growth in this country (USA) is due to the large Hispanic immigration adding to the Catholic population.

Even if you're correct (and you may well be),............so what?  Does the ethnicity matter somehow?

And how do you explain the worldwide increase?  Oh yeah...all those Hispanics  Grin Roll Eyes!
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« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2012, 04:44:39 PM »

Much of the same criticism could be leveled against many Odox churches...

From what I hear unfortunately.

And, despite it all, the Catholic Church in this country, and worldwide, is actually growing in numbers.  At least according to the data here: http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html
Yes, but I think the growth in this country (USA) is due to the large Hispanic immigration adding to the Catholic population.

That's coming to a halt soon with the evos killing the RCs in LA.

The LAs are coming here already evoed out. I work with more than a few.

"Evos"??  "LAs"??  "Evoed out"??  What language is all *that*??  Care to translate, please, for this old guy Wink?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 04:53:14 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2012, 11:43:22 AM »

Yes, but I think the growth in this country (USA) is due to the large Hispanic immigration adding to the Catholic population.

Even if you're correct (and you may well be),............so what?  Does the ethnicity matter somehow?

Maybe Jetavan has some hidden, evil agenda.  Shocked  Wink

And how do you explain the worldwide increase?

I don't know how to explain that. According to georgetown.edu, 18% of the world was Catholic in 1970, whereas 17% was in 2008. (It could have something to do with the fact that 17 is a prime number.)
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« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2012, 12:06:48 PM »

And how do you explain the worldwide increase?

I don't know how to explain that. According to georgetown.edu, 18% of the world was Catholic in 1970, whereas 17% was in 2008. (It could have something to do with the fact that 17 is a prime number.)

Correction: I mean decrease, not increase.
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« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2012, 12:54:24 PM »

Much of the same criticism could be leveled against many Odox churches...

From what I hear unfortunately.

And, despite it all, the Catholic Church in this country, and worldwide, is actually growing in numbers.  At least according to the data here: http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html
Yes, but I think the growth in this country (USA) is due to the large Hispanic immigration adding to the Catholic population.

Even if you're correct (and you may well be),............so what?  Does the ethnicity matter somehow?

And how do you explain the worldwide increase?  Oh yeah...all those Hispanics  Grin Roll Eyes!
I'm simply making a sociological observation about the how the Catholic Church functions in society -- with this function being a separate issue from the question of the Truth value of the Catholic Church.

In developing nations, such as much of Latin America, the Catholic Church is one of the best ways to get an education, healthcare, and become part of a worldwide community that provides various opportunities for social mobility.

In the U.S., the Catholic Church does not have the same level of power and significance, and there are many other ways to get educated and become socially mobile. Thus, a decrease in Catholic membership would be expected in the U.S., or at least it would not be surprising.

However, the large numbers of immigrants from developing nations (not simply Latin America, but also Africa and Asia) offsets the decrease in Catholic population among non-immigrants, such that the Catholic population in the U.S. is actually growing by a small percentage.
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« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2012, 01:18:32 PM »

Much of the same criticism could be leveled against many Odox churches...

From what I hear unfortunately.

And, despite it all, the Catholic Church in this country, and worldwide, is actually growing in numbers.  At least according to the data here: http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html
Yes, but I think the growth in this country (USA) is due to the large Hispanic immigration adding to the Catholic population.

Even if you're correct (and you may well be),............so what?  Does the ethnicity matter somehow?

And how do you explain the worldwide increase?  Oh yeah...all those Hispanics  Grin Roll Eyes!
I'm simply making a sociological observation about the how the Catholic Church functions in society -- with this function being a separate issue from the question of the Truth value of the Catholic Church.

In developing nations, such as much of Latin America, the Catholic Church is one of the best ways to get an education, healthcare, and become part of a worldwide community that provides various opportunities for social mobility.

In the U.S., the Catholic Church does not have the same level of power and significance, and there are many other ways to get educated and become socially mobile. Thus, a decrease in Catholic membership would be expected in the U.S., or at least it would not be surprising.

However, the large numbers of immigrants from developing nations (not simply Latin America, but also Africa and Asia) offsets the decrease in Catholic population among non-immigrants, such that the Catholic population in the U.S. is actually growing by a small percentage.

Which is a good thing!  But that's just my opinion.  Wink

As for your other points, you'll get no argument from me.
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« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2012, 01:31:32 PM »

Much of the same criticism could be leveled against many Odox churches...

From what I hear unfortunately.

And, despite it all, the Catholic Church in this country, and worldwide, is actually growing in numbers.  At least according to the data here: http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html
Yes, but I think the growth in this country (USA) is due to the large Hispanic immigration adding to the Catholic population.

Even if you're correct (and you may well be),............so what?  Does the ethnicity matter somehow?

And how do you explain the worldwide increase?  Oh yeah...all those Hispanics  Grin Roll Eyes!
I'm simply making a sociological observation about the how the Catholic Church functions in society -- with this function being a separate issue from the question of the Truth value of the Catholic Church.

In developing nations, such as much of Latin America, the Catholic Church is one of the best ways to get an education, healthcare, and become part of a worldwide community that provides various opportunities for social mobility.

In the U.S., the Catholic Church does not have the same level of power and significance, and there are many other ways to get educated and become socially mobile. Thus, a decrease in Catholic membership would be expected in the U.S., or at least it would not be surprising.

However, the large numbers of immigrants from developing nations (not simply Latin America, but also Africa and Asia) offsets the decrease in Catholic population among non-immigrants, such that the Catholic population in the U.S. is actually growing by a small percentage.

Cynic!!... Smiley

I fear the same goes for Orthodox missions as well.

However...I have been to Africa and I know that the faithful remnant there is much larger than that which is here in the U.S. and there's no amount of 'splainin' that away....

M.
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« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2012, 04:35:00 PM »

Quote
Cynic!!...

I fear the same goes for Orthodox missions as well.

However...I have been to Africa and I know that the faithful remnant there is much larger than that which is here in the U.S. and there's no amount of 'splainin' that away....

M.
See, I've been reading that folks are leaving alot of protestant churches and converting to the Roman Catholic Church and orthodoxy (also 7th day adventists as well). I know immigrants are helping the numbers, but I think alot more folks are coming in, than leaving.

PP
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« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2012, 04:44:06 PM »

Quote
Cynic!!...

I fear the same goes for Orthodox missions as well.

However...I have been to Africa and I know that the faithful remnant there is much larger than that which is here in the U.S. and there's no amount of 'splainin' that away....

M.
See, I've been reading that folks are leaving alot of protestant churches and converting to the Roman Catholic Church and orthodoxy (also 7th day adventists as well). I know immigrants are helping the numbers, but I think alot more folks are coming in, than leaving.

PP

Serious question:  What do you, you personally PP, think is served by counting noses?  Do numbers tell the story or does it keep us from looking at something else that we should be attending to but do not because we are distracted by nose counting and all that entails?

M.
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« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2012, 04:55:09 PM »

No, Im not trying to count noses, I was reading an article about it (2 actually). I wasnt trying to say "numbers mean success" or anything like that.

Sorry if thats what it sounded like.

PP
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« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2012, 05:02:49 PM »

No, Im not trying to count noses, I was reading an article about it (2 actually). I wasnt trying to say "numbers mean success" or anything like that.

Sorry if thats what it sounded like.

PP

No...no...slow down.  I don't have an answer to my own question either, not precisely, but I am curious as to what we think we gain by counting noses.  I wonder if it is to cover up for something that we are not inclined to look at in reality.  I only asked you because I think you often have fresh perspectives on old questions!!

M.
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« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2012, 08:10:49 PM »

Quote
Cynic!!...

I fear the same goes for Orthodox missions as well.

However...I have been to Africa and I know that the faithful remnant there is much larger than that which is here in the U.S. and there's no amount of 'splainin' that away....

M.
See, I've been reading that folks are leaving alot of protestant churches and converting to the Roman Catholic Church and orthodoxy (also 7th day adventists as well). I know immigrants are helping the numbers, but I think alot more folks are coming in, than leaving.

PP

I would think it's about the same. As mentioned before, according to georgetown.edu, 18% of the world was Catholic in 1970, whereas 17% was in 2008. That's a small decrease in 38 years.
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« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2012, 08:50:07 PM »

It is a decrease of 68,405,070 people (using 2010 world population data) over a span in which the world population grew about by 2.9 billion.

No it isn't. No it freaking isn't.
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« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2012, 09:03:40 PM »

It is a decrease of 68,405,070 people

 Huh
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« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2012, 09:04:29 PM »

Yeah, I don't know. I shouldn't have posted that. I don't know math. That's not how that works. Gah, shut up, me.
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« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2012, 09:58:48 PM »

Yes. The RCC is a smaller percentage of the world now than it was in 1970, but actual numbers of RCs have increased. (Perhaps this is what  J Michael and Jetavan  were talking about earlier:

And how do you explain the worldwide increase? 
)
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