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Author Topic: Head of UOC-KP doubts UGCC ready to become part of Unified Ukrainian Church  (Read 1348 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« on: March 27, 2012, 10:08:25 AM »

Quote
Patriarch Filaret of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate (UOC-KP) spoke about the relations between the UOC-KP and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in an interview to NG Religions...Unification with them will be possible when the Ukrainian Orthodox community is united in one church recognized by the world’s Orthodoxy. The thing is that the Greek Catholic Church appeared in the 16th century when Ukraine, which had lost its independence, became part of the Polish kingdom and the Orthodox bishops were put in an unequal position with the Catholic bishops. Now, we have our own state. There are grounds for unification as the cause of the divide has been liquidated. But I do not think that the whole UGCC is ready to unite in one Orthodox Church. Even if this unification happens, part of the Uniate clergy will simply join the Roman Catholic Church,” said the head of the UOC-KP.
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/47464/
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2012, 10:31:54 AM »

He also said in the same article: “We had complicated relations with the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in the beginning of 1990s, during the time of the struggle for church buildings. Now, when hundreds and, perhaps, even thousands of church buildings have been built in Galicia and each parish has its own church building, our relations have become normal. We have many things in common.  Both churches hold state positions and support the protection of morality in the society. We have this in common not only with Greek Catholics but also with the Roman Catholics and Protestants."

I do agree that were to Rome to ever accept an agreement between the UGCC and the Orthodox that the resolution of the Eastern Catholic problem in Ukraine was to direct the Ukrainian Greek Catholics to join a unified, autochephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church that not only would many clergy prefer to join the Roman rite, a fair number of the faithful would follow them. The Russophile faction within Ukraine would likely not accept such a unified UOC and would seek the establishmen of a ROCOR type exarchate or a Moscow Patriarchal Church  in Ukraine as well.(sounds like the good old USA - this 'solution' has worked out 'great' here, hasn't it?)

Old habits and teachings are tough to break. If this were to happen, I would support recognizing the right of those people to make such choices, but this is really only hypothetical as I don't see this happening anytime soon!
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 10:34:52 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
IreneOlinyk
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2012, 11:41:35 AM »

The whole interview from March 21. 2012 can be found here:
http://religion.ng.ru/events/2012-03-21/1_kiev.html

Better to read it all to get the context of the comments republished on RISU.
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2012, 11:50:53 AM »

The whole interview from March 21. 2012 can be found here:
http://religion.ng.ru/events/2012-03-21/1_kiev.html

Better to read it all to get the context of the comments republished on RISU.

Thank you for posting the entire interview.

While the Google translation was 'shaky' I was able to piece it together enough to understand it. Very interesting, Met. Philaret is much vilified by many of us in the Orthodox world - after reading the interview, I am not sure where I stand on him - but he revealed a keen mind which is grounded in reality. Probably a left-over from the old days, but none the less, a realism that sadly is often is missing Church affairs.

Like the old Rolling Stone himself, Mick Jagger observed all those years ago, You can't always get you want and you don't always want what you get in this life. (paraphrased...)
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2012, 11:57:46 AM »

"...Even if this unification happens, part of the Uniate clergy will simply join the Roman Catholic Church,”

Hmm,, if you have accepted the precepts of the RCC and are under the Pope of Rome, you are in the Roman Catholic Church.

But, dont worry I wont tell anyone.

JoeS
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2012, 11:18:21 PM »

"...Even if this unification happens, part of the Uniate clergy will simply join the Roman Catholic Church,”

Hmm,, if you have accepted the precepts of the RCC and are under the Pope of Rome, you are in the Roman Catholic Church.

But, dont worry I wont tell anyone.

JoeS

Your statement is typical of Orthodox who don't attempt to understand the rather convoluted and complex relationship between the Latin Rite of the Church of Rome and the various 'sui juris' Eastern Churches who are allied with the Church of Rome. There is no question that Eastern Catholics united with Rome are part of the Church of Rome and in theory accept the teaching of Rome regarding the institution of the papacy, but it is inaccurate to refer to them as Roman Catholics. Melkite Greek Catholics, for instance, will go to great lengths to attempt to explain their historic understanding of their union with Rome which would not be the same as the understanding of say the American Byzantine Catholic Church or with that of the UGCC.
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2012, 11:26:28 PM »

Quote
Patriarch Filaret of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate (UOC-KP) spoke about the relations between the UOC-KP and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in an interview to NG Religions...Unification with them will be possible when the Ukrainian Orthodox community is united in one church recognized by the world’s Orthodoxy. The thing is that the Greek Catholic Church appeared in the 16th century when Ukraine, which had lost its independence, became part of the Polish kingdom and the Orthodox bishops were put in an unequal position with the Catholic bishops. Now, we have our own state. There are grounds for unification as the cause of the divide has been liquidated. But I do not think that the whole UGCC is ready to unite in one Orthodox Church. Even if this unification happens, part of the Uniate clergy will simply join the Roman Catholic Church,” said the head of the UOC-KP.
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/47464/

This analysis stinks of nationalism.

I know it is a historical fact that one's religion was often dictated by the religion of the nobleman to whom one paid taxes, but one would hope that it is issues of doctrine which now keep the so-called "Ukrainian Greek Catholics" separated from the Church of Christ, rather than where the borders of the Ukrainian state are drawn.

If any part of the so-called Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church wishes to rejoin the Church of Christ, acknowledging it as being such, that part should do so immediately, not at some indefinite future point when certain diplomatic niceties are sorted out.

Am I misunderstanding?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 11:26:45 PM by akimori makoto » Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2012, 09:50:51 AM »

Quote
Patriarch Filaret of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate (UOC-KP) spoke about the relations between the UOC-KP and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in an interview to NG Religions...Unification with them will be possible when the Ukrainian Orthodox community is united in one church recognized by the world’s Orthodoxy. The thing is that the Greek Catholic Church appeared in the 16th century when Ukraine, which had lost its independence, became part of the Polish kingdom and the Orthodox bishops were put in an unequal position with the Catholic bishops. Now, we have our own state. There are grounds for unification as the cause of the divide has been liquidated. But I do not think that the whole UGCC is ready to unite in one Orthodox Church. Even if this unification happens, part of the Uniate clergy will simply join the Roman Catholic Church,” said the head of the UOC-KP.
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/47464/

This analysis stinks of nationalism.

I know it is a historical fact that one's religion was often dictated by the religion of the nobleman to whom one paid taxes, but one would hope that it is issues of doctrine which now keep the so-called "Ukrainian Greek Catholics" separated from the Church of Christ, rather than where the borders of the Ukrainian state are drawn.

If any part of the so-called Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church wishes to rejoin the Church of Christ, acknowledging it as being such, that part should do so immediately, not at some indefinite future point when certain diplomatic niceties are sorted out.

Am I misunderstanding?

For better or worse, it certainly is related to nationalism and the rise of national identities as such gained acceleration across Europe starting in the mid 19th century and continuing through the present day.

One can not discuss Ukrainian religious issues, secular issues, national identity or nationanl security issues without remembering that there is always a proverbial 'elephant' in the room, i.e. Russia and the panslavists. Orthodoxy has had to contend with the intertwining of national aspirations and ethnic identity with the Faith since the establishment of the Eastern Empire some 1700 years or so ago. The remaining influence of, and competition between and among the adherents of various forms of Panhellenism and Panslavism continue to vex us and remain powerful talismans to many.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2012, 01:30:39 PM »

Quote
Patriarch Filaret of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate (UOC-KP) spoke about the relations between the UOC-KP and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in an interview to NG Religions...Unification with them will be possible when the Ukrainian Orthodox community is united in one church recognized by the world’s Orthodoxy. The thing is that the Greek Catholic Church appeared in the 16th century when Ukraine, which had lost its independence, became part of the Polish kingdom and the Orthodox bishops were put in an unequal position with the Catholic bishops. Now, we have our own state. There are grounds for unification as the cause of the divide has been liquidated. But I do not think that the whole UGCC is ready to unite in one Orthodox Church. Even if this unification happens, part of the Uniate clergy will simply join the Roman Catholic Church,” said the head of the UOC-KP.
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/47464/

This analysis stinks of nationalism.

I know it is a historical fact that one's religion was often dictated by the religion of the nobleman to whom one paid taxes, but one would hope that it is issues of doctrine which now keep the so-called "Ukrainian Greek Catholics" separated from the Church of Christ, rather than where the borders of the Ukrainian state are drawn.

If any part of the so-called Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church wishes to rejoin the Church of Christ, acknowledging it as being such, that part should do so immediately, not at some indefinite future point when certain diplomatic niceties are sorted out.

Am I misunderstanding?
No, but the UGCC myth has it Orthodox Russia prevented the Ukrainian Orthodox from flocking en mass to the Vatican, so they assUme that now that Russia is across the border, Kiev will march west.  Case in point the memoires of Lototsky, Ukrainian minister of religious affairs in the short lived Hetmanate, among other things:
Quote
Another matter in which Lototsky achieved success was the return from exile of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Metropolitan Andrei Sheptytsky. Following the arrest of the metropolitan in 1915, Lototsky had begun looking for ways to secure his freedom or ease his exile. Working with two Greek Catholic priests in the capital, Lototsky attempted to write about Sheptytsky in the Petrograd press, but found editors generally reluctant to permit such an appeal. Aleksandr Kerensky, who was then justice minister, issued instructions in March 1917 to free the metropolitan in response to appeals made by Lototsky in his capacity as president of the Ukrainian National Council. The council prepared to greet Sheptytsky on his return from exile on 18 March. Lototsky not only welcomed the metropolitan, but was also the first non-cleric officially to greet him in Petrograd. In his remarks, Lototsky praised. Sheptytsky for his devotion to his flock, the Ukrainian people, for whom he had been a good shepherd willing to give up his life. On 24 April, Sheptytsky left Petrograd for Kyiv and later Lviv to to enthusiastic greetings in both cities.

In his memoirs, Lototsky provides some important details about the life, arrest, exile, and return of Metropolitan Sheptytsky. For Lototsky, the arrest of the metropolitan violated international standards of conduct. An Orthodox Christian, Lototsky considered the exile of Metropolitan Sheptytsky an injustice against the entire Ukrainian nation, and not one committed against a particular Ukrainian church. Thus, the enthusiasm for the return of the metropolitan on the part of all Ukrainians, according to Lototsky, was not motivated by particular confessional concerns but by national and human ones. After his release, Sheptytsky was a guest at the Lototsky home...Lototsky was not without his personal views concerning the Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine. Father Stepan luryk, a close associate of Metropolitan Sheptytsky, had remarked to Lototsky that now, after the fall of the Russian Empire,there remained no further obstacle to establishing the Greek Catholic Church as the national church of the Ukrainian people. Lototsky notes in his memoirs that he tried to persuade the priest otherwise, stating that his desire to see Metropolitan Sheptytsky free should not be interpreted as an invitation to the Greek Catholic Church to attempt to convert Ukrainian Orthodox Christians to Catholicism. Lototsky rejected any attempt to challenge what he termed the ancestral Orthodox faith of the Ukrainian people. Such attempts, he believed, would change the nature of the feelings Orthodox Ukrainians had for Sheptytsky and his church, renewing "the ugly scenes already experienced in our medieval history."

Between Kyiv and Constantinople: Oleksander Lototsky and the quest for Ukrainian Autocephaly By André Partykevich
http://books.google.com/books?id=SEXsJ1CzdvEC&pg=PA22&dq=%22Another+matter+in+which+Lototsky%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aGBxT42iIKTX0QHhu-WyAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Another%20matter%20in%20which%20Lototsky%22&f=false
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« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2012, 02:27:59 PM »


No, but the UGCC myth has it Orthodox Russia prevented the Ukrainian Orthodox from flocking en mass to the Vatican, so they assUme that now that Russia is across the border, Kiev will march west.  Case in point the memoires of Lototsky, Ukrainian minister of religious affairs in the short lived Hetmanate, among other things:


But Isa's point sort of begs the question, IMHO. Sort of a chicken and the egg. Was the 'myth' that the Orthodox would flock to the protection of the Greek Catholics really nothing more than an expression of naive, nascient nationalism being expressed in the only form that was really possible at the time rather than some positive affirmation of papal supremacy and Roman universality? Growing up when I did, I certainly remember enough old timers from the old country saying something akin to , "Oh Yes we were 'Greek Catholic' but we were really not 'under' the Pope. He sort of protected us from (fill in the blank) but we really weren't 'under' him like the 'Rimsky Katlics' next door." I suspect that is where the fiction of 'Orthodox, but 'united' with Rome' comes from - a sort of double-edged denial.  One thing that they knew at that point in time was that the 'Rimsky's' were 'different' than were the 'Grik Katlics.' This sentiment would be heard out of the mouths of the most angry supports of the Unia in American parishes and from the mounths of their most angry neighbors or brothers who left the Unia to join the Orthodox.

This whole mess is inextricably tied into the problem of national self-identity and its shadows still extend across the Atlantic.

Indeed, I should note that this entire issue goes beyond current affairs in modern Ukraine. Many Orthodox in America,  particularly those converts or married into to the Slavic churches such as the  OCA, ROCOR, ACROD and even the UOC have little real knowledge of the foundations of their respective jurisdictions.

The overwhelming majority of the parishes which formed the foundations of these jurisdictions (along with the BCC and UGCC in America) came from the realm of the former Austria-Hungary and to a far lesser extent, Tsarist Russia.

It has been said that the prime cause of the 'split' ethnic identities and religious allegiances of these immigrants orginating from Austria-Hungary and Tsarist Russia (and their political successors both  post ww1 and ww2 in North America) is tied to just  WHEN those immigrants came to the new world. The current perceptions of  the grandchildren of those folks who now inhabit our modern day OCA, ROCOR, UOC, ACROD, BCC  and UGCC parishes and communities across this continent often have a flawed understanding of the complexities underlying their roots and origins.

It can not be denied that there was a strain of panslavism and Russophilism in what is now west Ukraine, south Poland and east Slovakia during the latter years of Magyar rule beginning in the mid-19th century. Men such as the much revered, even to this day in Europe, Fr. Alexander Duchnovyc, father of the Rusyn National Awakening following 1848, did hold admiration for certain things now considered to be 'Russian.' The awakening of Ukrainian and other national identities were certainly suppressed under both the Magyar or the Russian empires and one's 'ethnic' sub-identity was dependent upon the sympathies of the ruling class governing one's ancestral location. Retaining Greek Catholicism was a key way in which cultural and religious identity was preserved against either unwarranted Roman Catholic, Magyar or Russian pressures.

World War one and the Russian Revolution let the proverbial genie out of the bottle and the impacts of centuries of repression are still being played out across the realms of the two defunct Empires - Tsarist Russia and that of the Hapsburg monarchies.

For that matter, the detritus of those long dead empires has much to do with the alphabet soup that is now American Orthodoxy and the continuing identity issues within the BCC church in the USA. Indeed, census records and scholarly publications indicate that at the height of immigration to America some one million individuals came here self-identifying as Ruthenians, Lemkos, Galicians etc.(Immigration records from prior to the 1920's show that few self identified as either Ukrainian or Russian. For that matter -'Hungrish' (i.e. Austro-Hungarian) and even 'Slavish', whatever that meant, appear on row upon row of immigration records.) If you combine the numbers of Orthodox north and eastern Slavs and Slavic Eastern Catholics in America today you come nowhere near that number - especially when you consider probable population growth progressions of such a number over  the course of a century! That probably accounts for the inflation of membership numbers across the board in these jurisdictions through the 1980.s

The constant bickering, fighting and schisms caused by the lack of a coherent sense of self no doubt is to blame for this reality.

I recall the fanciful anecdote about the elderly Baba living outside of Muchachevo, who when interviewed by an American reporter following the collapse of communism in the early 1990's, observed that during her lifetime she had lived in five different countries. The young lady conducting the interview followed up that comment by observing that the Baba must have seen the world in her lifetime.

The old woman smiled and said she had never ventured outside of her village. How could that be, the reporter asked?

The Baba answered that when she was born, Austria-Hungary was her nation. Following the end of World War One, she was a citizen of Czechoslovakia, for a few days in 1938 she resided in the 'independent' republic of Carpatho-Ruthenia, following the Second World War she was a citizen of the USSR and in her old age she resided in Ukraine.

Her sister, on the other hand, only lived in four countries as she had moved to Medzilaborce after getting married in 1921 and now was a Slovak!

All of us and our respective jurisdictions have to move beyond the weight of the past as it recedes far into the recesses of collective memories. If not, only myth will remain and myth is the enemy of real Faith.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 02:31:52 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2012, 04:08:42 PM »

I recall the fanciful anecdote about the elderly Baba living outside of Muchachevo, who when interviewed by an American reporter following the collapse of communism in the early 1990's, observed that during her lifetime she had lived in five different countries. The young lady conducting the interview followed up that comment by observing that the Baba must have seen the world in her lifetime.

The old woman smiled and said she had never ventured outside of her village. How could that be, the reporter asked?

The Baba answered that when she was born, Austria-Hungary was her nation. Following the end of World War One, she was a citizen of Czechoslovakia, for a few days in 1938 she resided in the 'independent' republic of Carpatho-Ruthenia, following the Second World War she was a citizen of the USSR and in her old age she resided in Ukraine.

Her sister, on the other hand, only lived in four countries as she had moved to Medzilaborce after getting married in 1921 and now was a Slovak!

Don't you have schools in America?
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« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2012, 04:16:10 PM »

I recall the fanciful anecdote about the elderly Baba living outside of Muchachevo, who when interviewed by an American reporter following the collapse of communism in the early 1990's, observed that during her lifetime she had lived in five different countries. The young lady conducting the interview followed up that comment by observing that the Baba must have seen the world in her lifetime.

The old woman smiled and said she had never ventured outside of her village. How could that be, the reporter asked?

The Baba answered that when she was born, Austria-Hungary was her nation. Following the end of World War One, she was a citizen of Czechoslovakia, for a few days in 1938 she resided in the 'independent' republic of Carpatho-Ruthenia, following the Second World War she was a citizen of the USSR and in her old age she resided in Ukraine.

Her sister, on the other hand, only lived in four countries as she had moved to Medzilaborce after getting married in 1921 and now was a Slovak!

Don't you have schools in America?

Yeah, and most Americans think that Ukraine begins with the letter 'T', as the 'The' Ukraine!  Wink

Seriously, the story is most likely apocryphal, but it points out the 'messiness' of history and how it is intertwined with culture, faith, politics etc....
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« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2012, 04:18:32 PM »

Yeah, and most Americans think that Ukraine begins with the letter 'T', as the 'The' Ukraine!  Wink

I was taught this way too.

Quote
Seriously, the story is most likely apocryphal, but it points out the 'messiness' of history and how it is intertwined with culture, faith, politics etc....

In mean that journalist's ignorance about the topic he was making material about.
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« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2012, 04:47:33 PM »

Yeah, and most Americans think that Ukraine begins with the letter 'T', as the 'The' Ukraine!  Wink

I was taught this way too.

Quote
Seriously, the story is most likely apocryphal, but it points out the 'messiness' of history and how it is intertwined with culture, faith, politics etc....

In mean that journalist's ignorance about the topic he was making material about.

I understand that, but the reality of the Cold War and how it was understood by Americans usually began and ended at Berlin and the Wall. The rest of the Iron Curtain and the impacts of Potsdam upon the native peoples of the region were not well known by the typical American unless, like me, they had roots or relatives in those countries.
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« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2012, 10:15:45 PM »

Hmm,, if you have accepted the precepts of the RCC and are under the Pope of Rome, you are in the Roman Catholic Church.

Don't you mean " ... you are in the Roman Communion"?
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« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2012, 10:17:57 PM »

The whole interview from March 21. 2012 can be found here:
http://religion.ng.ru/events/2012-03-21/1_kiev.html

Better to read it all to get the context of the comments republished on RISU.

Anything in particular?
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« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2012, 10:43:24 PM »

Hmm,, if you have accepted the precepts of the RCC and are under the Pope of Rome, you are in the Roman Catholic Church.

Don't you mean " ... you are in the Roman Communion"?

I think that they would refer to it as being in the Catholic Church, which of course would incorporate the Roman Church, the Greek Melkite Church, etc.
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« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2012, 11:49:22 PM »

I recall the fanciful anecdote about the elderly Baba living outside of Muchachevo, who when interviewed by an American reporter following the collapse of communism in the early 1990's, observed that during her lifetime she had lived in five different countries. The young lady conducting the interview followed up that comment by observing that the Baba must have seen the world in her lifetime.

The old woman smiled and said she had never ventured outside of her village. How could that be, the reporter asked?

The Baba answered that when she was born, Austria-Hungary was her nation. Following the end of World War One, she was a citizen of Czechoslovakia, for a few days in 1938 she resided in the 'independent' republic of Carpatho-Ruthenia, following the Second World War she was a citizen of the USSR and in her old age she resided in Ukraine.

Her sister, on the other hand, only lived in four countries as she had moved to Medzilaborce after getting married in 1921 and now was a Slovak!

Don't you have schools in America?
I would have to answer in politics.
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« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2012, 07:25:40 AM »

Hmm,, if you have accepted the precepts of the RCC and are under the Pope of Rome, you are in the Roman Catholic Church.

Don't you mean " ... you are in the Roman Communion"?

I think that they would refer to it as being in the Catholic Church, which of course would incorporate the Roman Church, the Greek Melkite Church, etc.

Well yes, except JoeS2 is Orthodox so I presume he considers the Orthodox Church to be "the Catholic Church". But it doesn't follow that the Roman Communion should be called "the Roman Catholic Church", which some consider offensive.
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« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2012, 08:37:06 AM »

Hmm,, if you have accepted the precepts of the RCC and are under the Pope of Rome, you are in the Roman Catholic Church.

Don't you mean " ... you are in the Roman Communion"?

I think that they would refer to it as being in the Catholic Church, which of course would incorporate the Roman Church, the Greek Melkite Church, etc.

Well yes, except JoeS2 is Orthodox so I presume he considers the Orthodox Church to be "the Catholic Church". But it doesn't follow that the Roman Communion should be called "the Roman Catholic Church", which some consider offensive.
Yes, some people have trouble handling the Truth.

How the UGCC was treated under the Vatican-Warsaw Concordat of 1925 and its implementation showed the reality of the situation.

The UOC, being real Catholics and in communion with the real Romans (i.e. the Romanians and the Roum), Roman Catholic is incorrect.  "Ultramontanist" would be truth in advertising in referring to the UGCC.  If Ukraine had a Sobor to unite, and they offered Mjr. Abp. Shevchuk the cathedra of Kiev if he break communion from the Vatican, is there any doubt what his answer would be, if he were honest?
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« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2012, 09:23:59 AM »

Hmm,, if you have accepted the precepts of the RCC and are under the Pope of Rome, you are in the Roman Catholic Church.

Don't you mean " ... you are in the Roman Communion"?

I think that they would refer to it as being in the Catholic Church, which of course would incorporate the Roman Church, the Greek Melkite Church, etc.

Well yes, except JoeS2 is Orthodox so I presume he considers the Orthodox Church to be "the Catholic Church". But it doesn't follow that the Roman Communion should be called "the Roman Catholic Church", which some consider offensive.
Yes, some people have trouble handling the Truth.

Yes, but I try to be patient with you. Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2012, 09:49:57 AM »

Hmm,, if you have accepted the precepts of the RCC and are under the Pope of Rome, you are in the Roman Catholic Church.

Don't you mean " ... you are in the Roman Communion"?

I think that they would refer to it as being in the Catholic Church, which of course would incorporate the Roman Church, the Greek Melkite Church, etc.

Well yes, except JoeS2 is Orthodox so I presume he considers the Orthodox Church to be "the Catholic Church". But it doesn't follow that the Roman Communion should be called "the Roman Catholic Church", which some consider offensive.
Yes, some people have trouble handling the Truth.

How the UGCC was treated under the Vatican-Warsaw Concordat of 1925 and its implementation showed the reality of the situation.

The UOC, being real Catholics and in communion with the real Romans (i.e. the Romanians and the Roum), Roman Catholic is incorrect.  "Ultramontanist" would be truth in advertising in referring to the UGCC.  If Ukraine had a Sobor to unite, and they offered Mjr. Abp. Shevchuk the cathedra of Kiev if he break communion from the Vatican, is there any doubt what his answer would be, if he were honest?

You do pose an interesting question and I suspect that you and I agree on what the Archbishop's answer would be.

I will say that from personal experience over the years there is a significant faction within the UGCC which could rightly be called 'ultramontanist' - the Basilian Fathers come to mind. Yet - and when dealing with Ukraine and her surrounding regions  there is always a 'yet' - I am not sure that one may accuse the entirety of the UGCC of sharing that approach with equal zeal. They do have their own LeFebvrist 'wanna-be's' and even a small schismatic group or two who fashion themselves as 'sede vacante-brand ultarmontanists'. However, the passions run so deep there and the significant differences in world-view between the east and west of Ukraine (deeper in many ways than the cultural differences in the USA between the 'old' South and North which persist to the present day) make any 'unity' really unlikely - at least as I see it as a non-Ukrainian 'neighbor'.

In Canada for example, I am sure that Fr. Roman of the large UGCC parish in Brampton, Ont. would give you a hearty argument about being accused of 'ultramontanism.'  Wink
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« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2012, 05:11:25 PM »

If Ukraine had a Sobor to unite, and they offered Mjr. Abp. Shevchuk the cathedra of Kiev if he break communion from the Vatican, is there any doubt what his answer would be, if he were honest?

There is no doubt.  He would decline it jst as his predecessor the Servant of God Metropolitan Andrey did. 
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« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2012, 05:27:14 PM »




Well yes, except JoeS2 is Orthodox so I presume he considers the Orthodox Church to be "the Catholic Church". But it doesn't follow that the Roman Communion should be called "the Roman Catholic Church", which some consider offensive.
[/quote]

Not to be off topic here but, there are at least 5 Roman Catholic churches in my area, ie explicitely Titled "Roman" at least thats what is printed on their Church signs.  So, this "offensive" title is not as universal as a lot of RC's would have us believe.
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« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2012, 05:29:46 PM »

If Ukraine had a Sobor to unite, and they offered Mjr. Abp. Shevchuk the cathedra of Kiev if he break communion from the Vatican, is there any doubt what his answer would be, if he were honest?

There is no doubt.  He would decline it jst as his predecessor the Servant of God Metropolitan Andrey did. 
My point exactly.
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« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2012, 05:46:57 PM »

Quote
Well yes, except JoeS2 is Orthodox so I presume he considers the Orthodox Church to be "the Catholic Church". But it doesn't follow that the Roman Communion should be called "the Roman Catholic Church", which some consider offensive.

Not to be off topic here but, there are at least 5 Roman Catholic churches in my area, ie explicitely Titled "Roman" at least thats what is printed on their Church signs.  So, this "offensive" title is not as universal as a lot of RC's would have us believe.

Yes, well as I said some consider it offensive.
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« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2012, 05:48:44 PM »

If Ukraine had a Sobor to unite, and they offered Mjr. Abp. Shevchuk the cathedra of Kiev if he break communion from the Vatican, is there any doubt what his answer would be, if he were honest?

There is no doubt.  He would decline it jst as his predecessor the Servant of God Metropolitan Andrey did. 
My point exactly.

No offense, but I don't really see the point of your "point".
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« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2012, 05:56:41 PM »

If Ukraine had a Sobor to unite, and they offered Mjr. Abp. Shevchuk the cathedra of Kiev if he break communion from the Vatican, is there any doubt what his answer would be, if he were honest?

There is no doubt.  He would decline it jst as his predecessor the Servant of God Metropolitan Andrey did. 
My point exactly.
It seemed you were implying the opposite.
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« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2012, 06:00:54 PM »

If Ukraine had a Sobor to unite, and they offered Mjr. Abp. Shevchuk the cathedra of Kiev if he break communion from the Vatican, is there any doubt what his answer would be, if he were honest?

There is no doubt.  He would decline it jst as his predecessor the Servant of God Metropolitan Andrey did. 
My point exactly.
It seemed you were implying the opposite.

So thought I.
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« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2012, 06:03:10 PM »

Not to be off topic here but, there are at least 5 Roman Catholic churches in my area, ie explicitely Titled "Roman" at least thats what is printed on their Church signs.  So, this "offensive" title is not as universal as a lot of RC's would have us believe.

It is only offensive when you tell Eastern Catholics they are Roman Catholics.  Both are in communion with the Pope of Rome, but they are seperate Churches.  Like if a call you Greek Orthodox when you are in the OCA.
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« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2012, 06:30:25 PM »

Not to be off topic here but, there are at least 5 Roman Catholic churches in my area, ie explicitely Titled "Roman" at least thats what is printed on their Church signs.  So, this "offensive" title is not as universal as a lot of RC's would have us believe.

It is only offensive when you tell Eastern Catholics they are Roman Catholics.  Both are in communion with the Pope of Rome, but they are seperate Churches.  Like if a call you Greek Orthodox when you are in the OCA.
I was in the OCA, was called Greek Orthodox, and never was offended.  I don't know of anyone who ever was (it does happen commonly).

Define "separate."
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« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2012, 09:38:44 PM »

Wikipedia calls the Roman Communion both "the Roman Catholic Church" (which is problematic for reasons already discussed) and "the Catholic Church" (which is problematic if they don't actually accept it's claim to be the Catholic Church).
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« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2012, 09:43:05 PM »

Not to be off topic here but, there are at least 5 Roman Catholic churches in my area, ie explicitely Titled "Roman" at least thats what is printed on their Church signs.  So, this "offensive" title is not as universal as a lot of RC's would have us believe.

It is only offensive when you tell Eastern Catholics they are Roman Catholics.  Both are in communion with the Pope of Rome, but they are seperate Churches.  Like if a call you Greek Orthodox when you are in the OCA.
I was in the OCA, was called Greek Orthodox, and never was offended.  I don't know of anyone who ever was (it does happen commonly).


OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion > Orthodox-Catholic Discussion (Moderator: username!)
Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

(emphasis added)
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« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2012, 10:20:42 PM »

Not to be off topic here but, there are at least 5 Roman Catholic churches in my area, ie explicitely Titled "Roman" at least thats what is printed on their Church signs.  So, this "offensive" title is not as universal as a lot of RC's would have us believe.

It is only offensive when you tell Eastern Catholics they are Roman Catholics.  Both are in communion with the Pope of Rome, but they are seperate Churches.  Like if a call you Greek Orthodox when you are in the OCA.
I was in the OCA, was called Greek Orthodox, and never was offended.  I don't know of anyone who ever was (it does happen commonly).


OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion > Orthodox-Catholic Discussion (Moderator: username!)
Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

(emphasis added)
And? 
It doesn't make a distinction, btw, between the "Roman", i.e. Vatican, from the "Eastern Catholic churches."  In fact, many (most? It is certainly the majority population wise) of the languages besides the official Latin used by the Vatican ecclesiastical community use a term for "Catholic" that means "Vatican," separate from the word used for "Catholic" in "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."  In the case at bar, almost half of all the "sui juris," the term is католицька (i.e. "Vatican") in "UGCC," not Соборна.
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« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2012, 10:21:28 PM »

Wikipedia calls the Roman Communion both "the Roman Catholic Church" (which is problematic for reasons already discussed) and "the Catholic Church" (which is problematic if they don't actually accept it's claim to be the Catholic Church).
but does it call it infallibly  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2012, 11:07:53 PM »

Not to be off topic here but, there are at least 5 Roman Catholic churches in my area, ie explicitely Titled "Roman" at least thats what is printed on their Church signs.  So, this "offensive" title is not as universal as a lot of RC's would have us believe.

It is only offensive when you tell Eastern Catholics they are Roman Catholics.  Both are in communion with the Pope of Rome, but they are seperate Churches.  Like if a call you Greek Orthodox when you are in the OCA.
I was in the OCA, was called Greek Orthodox, and never was offended.  I don't know of anyone who ever was (it does happen commonly).


OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion > Orthodox-Catholic Discussion (Moderator: username!)
Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

(emphasis added)
And? 
It doesn't make a distinction, btw, between the "Roman", i.e. Vatican, from the "Eastern Catholic churches." 

Perhaps not explicitly, but it certainly sounds to me like it's identifying the term "Roman Catholic Church" with the Latin Catholic Church, not the entire Roman Communion.
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« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2012, 11:32:04 PM »

Not to be off topic here but, there are at least 5 Roman Catholic churches in my area, ie explicitely Titled "Roman" at least thats what is printed on their Church signs.  So, this "offensive" title is not as universal as a lot of RC's would have us believe.

It is only offensive when you tell Eastern Catholics they are Roman Catholics.  Both are in communion with the Pope of Rome, but they are seperate Churches.  Like if a call you Greek Orthodox when you are in the OCA.
I was in the OCA, was called Greek Orthodox, and never was offended.  I don't know of anyone who ever was (it does happen commonly).


OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion > Orthodox-Catholic Discussion (Moderator: username!)
Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

(emphasis added)
And?  
It doesn't make a distinction, btw, between the "Roman", i.e. Vatican, from the "Eastern Catholic churches."

Perhaps not explicitly, but it certainly sounds to me like it's identifying the term "Roman Catholic Church" with the Latin Catholic Church, not the entire Roman Communion.
And?

It's a message board.

The primate of the largest Church, i.e. out in reality, just issued a statement on that.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43783.0.html
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« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2012, 07:51:49 AM »

Not to be off topic here but, there are at least 5 Roman Catholic churches in my area, ie explicitely Titled "Roman" at least thats what is printed on their Church signs.  So, this "offensive" title is not as universal as a lot of RC's would have us believe.

It is only offensive when you tell Eastern Catholics they are Roman Catholics.  Both are in communion with the Pope of Rome, but they are seperate Churches.  Like if a call you Greek Orthodox when you are in the OCA.
I was in the OCA, was called Greek Orthodox, and never was offended.  I don't know of anyone who ever was (it does happen commonly).


OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion > Orthodox-Catholic Discussion (Moderator: username!)
Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

(emphasis added)
And?  
It doesn't make a distinction, btw, between the "Roman", i.e. Vatican, from the "Eastern Catholic churches."

Perhaps not explicitly, but it certainly sounds to me like it's identifying the term "Roman Catholic Church" with the Latin Catholic Church, not the entire Roman Communion.
And?

 Huh You haven't quite mastered the use of conjunctions, have you?  Cheesy
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« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2012, 07:47:40 PM »

Not to be off topic here but, there are at least 5 Roman Catholic churches in my area, ie explicitely Titled "Roman" at least thats what is printed on their Church signs.  So, this "offensive" title is not as universal as a lot of RC's would have us believe.

It is only offensive when you tell Eastern Catholics they are Roman Catholics.  Both are in communion with the Pope of Rome, but they are seperate Churches.  Like if a call you Greek Orthodox when you are in the OCA.
I was in the OCA, was called Greek Orthodox, and never was offended.  I don't know of anyone who ever was (it does happen commonly).


OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion > Orthodox-Catholic Discussion (Moderator: username!)
Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

(emphasis added)
And?  
It doesn't make a distinction, btw, between the "Roman", i.e. Vatican, from the "Eastern Catholic churches."

Perhaps not explicitly, but it certainly sounds to me like it's identifying the term "Roman Catholic Church" with the Latin Catholic Church, not the entire Roman Communion.
And?

 Huh You haven't quite mastered the use of conjunctions, have you?  Cheesy
I've quite mastered the use of the Socratic method to call out a spade as a spade.   police laugh
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« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2012, 08:00:41 PM »

Wikipedia calls the Roman Communion both "the Roman Catholic Church" (which is problematic for reasons already discussed) and "the Catholic Church" (which is problematic if they don't actually accept it's claim to be the Catholic Church).

A certain Orthodox poster on CAF gets around this dilemma by calling it the 'Papal Catholic Church', but I doubt that this title is the droid you are looking for either. Wink
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« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2012, 01:15:33 AM »

If Ukraine had a Sobor to unite, and they offered Mjr. Abp. Shevchuk the cathedra of Kiev if he break communion from the Vatican, is there any doubt what his answer would be, if he were honest?

There is no doubt.  He would decline it jst as his predecessor the Servant of God Metropolitan Andrey did. 
My point exactly.
It seemed you were implying the opposite.
Not at all.  Met. Andrej specified he would accept if it were adopted unanimously, i.e. if the whole Sobor of Orthodox Ukrainians submitted to the Vatican freely this time as they had been forced to at Brest.  IOW, union of the Ukrainians=submission to the Vatican.  No dealings with the UGCC doesn't have that precondition.
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« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2012, 08:23:20 AM »

Wikipedia calls the Roman Communion both "the Roman Catholic Church" (which is problematic for reasons already discussed) and "the Catholic Church" (which is problematic if they don't actually accept it's claim to be the Catholic Church).

A certain Orthodox poster on CAF gets around this dilemma by calling it the 'Papal Catholic Church', but I doubt that this title is the droid you are looking for either. Wink

Yeah, I doubt that's very popular among Catholics.  Smiley

Practically speaking, given that "Roman Communion" isn't even in many people's vocabulary, I very often just say "Catholicism".
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