Do People Convert to Protestantism Because of Emotion?

[Ortho_cat]

let alone one which exhibits all the outward signs of being on fire for the Lord.

Which would those signs be?

I thought those were obvious...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khN3e4yH65Q

(Hot pentecostal service)

[Andrew Crook]

Something I've wondered a bit. I have never met too many former Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox Christians who have converted to Protestantism. In fact, I do not think I have ever met an Orthodox Christian who did other than a few of the people on here who left the faith. But, judging from the people who have converted to it from RC or EO, does it seem that the only reason they have converted is because of emotion? I have never met a single person who converted to Protestantism who can give me theological or intellectual reasons for their conversion, but when questioned about it, they just give answers from despair. Maybe they married a Protestant and wanted to make life easier for their kids, maybe someone close to them died so they begin to reject the structure of the Church and go to Protestantism because it is very simple and watered down, or they just feel like they've had it in life and begin to doubt everything they learned from the Church and try to seek God through Protestantism as an individualist influenced by their emotions. Some of the most common excuses I have heard from people who converted to Protestantism were 'Well, the Church history and doctrine is just so confusing, there is more to it...etc..and I just can't understand it...' or '...Well this [bad event] happened to me and reason or structure doesn't matter anymore...emotion matters...etc..existentialism' What do the folks here think? My theory is that Protestantism satisfies that desire for spiritual laziness inside of us; that desire to think that we can be reconciled to God with a single confession of faith and never have to let it transform us or lead a life of improvement. Whereas, Orthodoxy reminds us that living the Christian life is not just going to be some stroll in the park and focuses on spiritual development and maturity rather than oral confessions and emotionally satisfying sermons.

I think you raise a lot of good points.  Protestantism is tempting because there's usually no fasting, not any prayer rules, nothing.  You just get to pick and choose which parts of the Bible you like, and which parts you don't.  Not that most of us don't do that anyways...

I have definitely learned in my little bit of time being Orthodox, that it's not an emotional faith in the sense which you describe.  It is challenging, and it can be difficult, as we try to rise above our passions or pathos.. to reach a more pure state, better reflecting God's image. 

[JamesR]

However, my 16 years in the Orthodox Church have caused me to reflect on the passage "you will know them by their fruits", and wonder why many Protestant Churchs live more like the Church of the book of Acts than the Orthodox Church.  Obviously, a good number of cradles have started to ask the same questions.

I would have to respectfully disagree. What exact standard do you use to judge whether the fruit is good or bad? Just because Protestant Churches may seem more happy, joyful and public with their faith on the exterior, that does not necessarily mean that their fruit is the good fruit. The book of Romans also teaches us to be wary of false speakers who deceive people through flattery and smooth talk. Just because we in the Orthodox Church may be more contemplative, quiet and somewhat depressive with our faith does not necessarily mean that our fruit is bad. We've faced a lot of persecution in our time and Orthodoxy is very old; it is only natural that the beginning, joyful stage of conversion would not last forever but would mature into something more developed. What really matters is our doctrine and what is in our heart. Do we have good hearts dedicated to God? If we do, then it honestly does not matter if we are as verbal and public as Protestants are. Remember, Protestantism is relatively new, especially mainline Protestantism which has only been around for like 100 years. They are still in the happy, conversion 'honeymoon' stage of their religious development. Likewise, remember Jesus' parable about the seeds. The weeds who spring up in the beginning and are very happy at conversion, but the moment persecution comes along, they fall away and wither. Have Protestants really faced any problems like this so far? No they have not. And I bet you that a startling number of Evangelical mainline Protestants who are always cheerful would fall away from their faith if they had to endure the same persecution that Orthodox Christians have. On the other hand, Orthodox Christians have faced years of hardships and persecution, and although many of us have fallen away, many of us have also still remained true to the faith even though we are not as cheerful and vocal about it. Honestly, do you expect us to remain in the 'honeymoon' stage after our history? I personally find it beautiful how we have exceeded the honeymoon stage and can now worship God even despite the fact that we have endured so much suffering.

[Cavaradossi]

let alone one which exhibits all the outward signs of being on fire for the Lord.

Which would those signs be?

Fire, smoke, and the cessation of life.

[augustin717]

I thought the lord changed his mind about holocausts a while ago

[Jetavan]

I thought the lord changed his mind about holocausts a while ago

Nope. Now it's internal, rather than external.

[Andrew21091]

people tend to convert for silly, stupid reasons. period. whatever way it goes. an orthodox able to spew out quotes from the Philokalia is at least as annoying if not more so than an evangelical and his bible.

very odd post... 

Not really. I understand what he means. There are some over zealous converts who come into Orthodoxy and without being a year into the faith, are already reading the Philokalia and attempting to see the uncreated light by dressing like Russian peasants and wrapping a 300 knot prayer rope around their wrist. There is a reason why that book is mainly read by monastics. Specifically, experienced monastics.

[Azul]

No the main reason is the dying of a patriarchal, peasant pre-modern  world, where religion, pretty much like everything else was just a given, people didn't even gave much thought to.

so are you saying that the logical conclusion of this is that people convert to protestantism??

(now that the patriarchal, pre-modern world is dying, and religion is no longer a "given", with people giving more thought to it?  )

It' just one outcome. Other outcomes can be atheism, Buddhism, UFO you have it. But in the not so distant past religion wasn't as subject to personal choice as it is now and arguably, will be as time goes by.

Yes.And in the Orthodox Romania things were much better(spiritually).

[Justin Kissel]

people tend to convert for silly, stupid reasons. period. whatever way it goes. an orthodox able to spew out quotes from the Philokalia is at least as annoying if not more so than an evangelical and his bible.

very odd post...  

Not really. I understand what he means. There are some over zealous converts who come into Orthodoxy and without being a year into the faith, are already reading the Philokalia and attempting to see the uncreated light by dressing like Russian peasants and wrapping a 300 knot prayer rope around their wrist. There is a reason why that book is mainly read by monastics. Specifically, experienced monastics.

IMO the Sayings of the Desert Fathers is a more dangerous text for the .01% of the Orthodox population you are talking about. Though I agree with what you're saying. I was such a person (and I did see light!  but I think it was caused by hitting my head on the floor from too many prostrations   )

[Punch]

JamesR, your last post is so full of c*** that I am not going to bother to quote it.  "Mainline" Protestant denominations have been around for far more than 100 years.  Lutherans, Anglicans, and many Reformed have been here since Luther, Calvin and Zwingli started the Reformation (more than 500 years ago).  They have also had their share of persecutions.  The Communists did not discriminate when it came to sending Christians to the Gulags, and a lot of Baptists and other Protestants ended up there right next to the Orthodox.  Only thing is, they did not make deals with the Communists like Sergius and other "Orthodox" Bishops.  I don't even want to take the time to count the number of Protestant missionaries murdered trying to spread the Gospel.  Also, not all of Protestantism is a "do nothing, feel good" religion.  My father was a pastor in the LCMS and I was an elder in the WELS, and I have heard just as many "hellfire and brimstone" sermons (as well as preaching them myself) as I have heard in any Orthodox Church.  I have also heard, and preached myself, that Faith without Works is dead.  I find that many that condemn the three "Solas" of the Lutheran Church have absolutely NO idea of what they mean.  It is funny that in my town of Omaha, there are six Orthodox Churches and not one Orthodox school.  There are four WELS churches, two of which have schools.  None of the WELS churches are as large (member wise) as the largest Orthodox Churches, yet their own members support the Churches AND schools without bingo and ethnic festivals and the like.  The general view of the WELS (and LCMS) Churches that I have attended is "if our faith is so cold that we cannot even support our own pastors and workers, we do not deserve to exist".  If the Orthodox adopted this idea of Stewardship, we would likely only have one parish left in Omaha.  Interestingly, Greeks have been in Omaha nearly as long as anyone else, yet there was a Lutheran Hospital, a Methodist Hospital, and a Roman Catholic Hospital.  Is there even an Orthodox Hospital in the whole of the United States?  Our shelters are run by Protestants and Roman Catholics.  Six Orthodox Churches and no visible sign of outreach whatsoever.  THIS is what I am talking about when it comes to fruits.  You can talk about your “correct faith” all you want, but if your only expression of it is to come to Church once a week (and late at that), perform your rituals and go home, you have no faith that I am interested in.

To be clear, not all Orthodox are as mentioned above, nor are all Protestants.  There is plenty of good and bad in both.  But it does strike me as odd that the one truly self-supporting Orthodox Church in the area, one that has its people volunteer in the Protestant run shelters and who has no shortage of people to serve in the Church, and the one that is even having other Orthodox start attending (including half of our Russians) is headed by a convert priest and now has a church board that is fully comprised of converts.

And what is the point?  Simply this:  it is getting harder for me to believe that the Orthodox Church is the ONLY true Church when I see more of Christ outside of it than in.  Maybe we as Orthodox Christians need to stop making excuses and start living our Faith instead of talking about it, as the Patriarch of Moscow recently urged.  Maybe instead of trash talking the Protestants, we should be ashamed that so many of them practice what we preach.

[Andrew21091]

JamesR, your last post is so full of c*** that I am not going to bother to quote it.  "Mainline" Protestant denominations have been around for far more than 100 years.  Lutherans, Anglicans, and many Reformed have been here since Luther, Calvin and Zwingli started the Reformation (more than 500 years ago).  They have also had their share of persecutions.  The Communists did not discriminate when it came to sending Christians to the Gulags, and a lot of Baptists and other Protestants ended up there right next to the Orthodox.  Only thing is, they did not make deals with the Communists like Sergius and other "Orthodox" Bishops.  I don't even want to take the time to count the number of Protestant missionaries murdered trying to spread the Gospel.  Also, not all of Protestantism is a "do nothing, feel good" religion.  My father was a pastor in the LCMS and I was an elder in the WELS, and I have heard just as many "hellfire and brimstone" sermons (as well as preaching them myself) as I have heard in any Orthodox Church.  I have also heard, and preached myself, that Faith without Works is dead.  I find that many that condemn the three "Solas" of the Lutheran Church have absolutely NO idea of what they mean.  It is funny that in my town of Omaha, there are six Orthodox Churches and not one Orthodox school.  There are four WELS churches, two of which have schools.  None of the WELS churches are as large (member wise) as the largest Orthodox Churches, yet their own members support the Churches AND schools without bingo and ethnic festivals and the like.  The general view of the WELS (and LCMS) Churches that I have attended is "if our faith is so cold that we cannot even support our own pastors and workers, we do not deserve to exist".  If the Orthodox adopted this idea of Stewardship, we would likely only have one parish left in Omaha.  Interestingly, Greeks have been in Omaha nearly as long as anyone else, yet there was a Lutheran Hospital, a Methodist Hospital, and a Roman Catholic Hospital.  Is there even an Orthodox Hospital in the whole of the United States?  Our shelters are run by Protestants and Roman Catholics.  Six Orthodox Churches and no visible sign of outreach whatsoever.  THIS is what I am talking about when it comes to fruits.  You can talk about your “correct faith” all you want, but if your only expression of it is to come to Church once a week (and late at that), perform your rituals and go home, you have no faith that I am interested in.

To be clear, not all Orthodox are as mentioned above, nor are all Protestants.  There is plenty of good and bad in both.  But it does strike me as odd that the one truly self-supporting Orthodox Church in the area, one that has its people volunteer in the Protestant run shelters and who has no shortage of people to serve in the Church, and the one that is even having other Orthodox start attending (including half of our Russians) is headed by a convert priest and now has a church board that is fully comprised of converts.

And what is the point?  Simply this:  it is getting harder for me to believe that the Orthodox Church is the ONLY true Church when I see more of Christ outside of it than in.  Maybe we as Orthodox Christians need to stop making excuses and start living our Faith instead of talking about it, as the Patriarch of Moscow recently urged.  Maybe instead of trash talking the Protestants, we should be ashamed that so many of them practice what we preach.

Wow, if I didn't know better, I would have thought I wrote that. I agree with you 100%. The Orthodox Christians in this country need to do a far more better job at living a truly Christian life. I know what you mean when you say it is difficult to see more of Christ outside of the Orthodox Church than in it. I've struggled with the same thing. I volunteer every month at a soup kitchen run by the Catholic Church. There are Protestant groups that run shelters and rehab facilities in my city as well. I can't really say much more that you haven't said.

[primuspilus]

Wow, if I didn't know better, I would have thought I wrote that. I agree with you 100%. The Orthodox Christians in this country need to do a far more better job at living a truly Christian life. I know what you mean when you say it is difficult to see more of Christ outside of the Orthodox Church than in it. I've struggled with the same thing. I volunteer every month at a soup kitchen run by the Catholic Church. There are Protestant groups that run shelters and rehab facilities in my city as well. I can't really say much more that you haven't said

Flip every instance of "Orthodox" and "Protestant" and that is the same exact thing protestants say about us and RC's.

The truth of the matter is, Christians of all stripes need to do better. The reason is, Satan is tapdancing in our Churches, families, our lives, and what we do.

Its not an Orthodox thing, or a Protestant thing. Thinking it is, is simply foolish.

There are wonderful Protestant, Romans, and Orthodox. There are also terrible ones all the same.

If you see "Protestants" being more of the Church of Christ than Orthodox or Roman Catholics, you'll be sorely disappointed when you look deeper. You'll see yourself looking back at you because they do the same.

Satan wants us all to fail. He does not care about labels as we do.

PP

[Ortho_cat]

I am very fortunate and proud to say that my city can easily be considered a national hub for Orthodoxy. We have a AOCA cathedral, another AOCA parish , and a western rite. We have 2 missions operations that were founded and are run by Orthodox (a DUI victim center, and a center for helping mother's in crisis (Treehouse).

We have 8th day books, one of the most well known Orthodox book stores in the country. Associated with that we have the 8th day institute, which holds regular lectures and conferences from major speakers around the country. Also we have the publisher and founder of "Dynamis" devotional readings/materials (which are sent all across the country as well as to many of those in prisons). We are starting a K-5 classical based school out of the cathedral next year, and are working on planning to build a monastery within the next several years.

We have strong missions work currently going on in India (built a girls orphanage), Romania, starting in Thailand (training and educating laymen and clergy), and other places.

Even with all this, I feel that we have the potential to do so much more, and are just getting started in many ways.

[JamesR]

By mainline Protestant I am referring to Baptists, Southern Baptists, Evangelicals and the like. Basically American Protestantism. I am entirely aware that Lutheranism and more traditional forms of Protestantism have been around for a longer time, however, even in these Churches I have not seen what you are talking about. The only place where I actually do see this zeal and being 'on fire for Christ' is in the American Evangelical/Southern Baptist type Churches. And my point is that these Churches have barely been around for a century (maybe a little longer) so they are still in the honeymoon stage of their faith. You say that they also suffered persecution under the communists, but how many of them? Only a few missionaries and small communities? None of them ever suffered on the scale we did. Imagine if communists took over America, the capital of Evangelicism/Baptists. I would bet that many of them would either fall away, or they would become less cheerful and more subtle like we are. I too come from a Protestant background so do not try to act as if I'm clueless or just picking on Protestantism for no reason. Perhaps I did exaggerate, and I apologize for that. But I still disagree with you on many things. You complain that the Orthodox are not socially involved enough in the community? We are the ones distributing the Mysteries to them and saving their souls. Sure, all of these Protestant acts of kindness and helping the community are nice and all, but they are not going to save the souls of the people. This is one of the problems I had as a Protestant. I felt that they focused too much on social issues than on actual doctrine, salvation and theology.

[JamesRottnek]

JamesR, your last post is so full of c*** that I am not going to bother to quote it.  "Mainline" Protestant denominations have been around for far more than 100 years.  Lutherans, Anglicans, and many Reformed have been here since Luther, Calvin and Zwingli started the Reformation (more than 500 years ago).  They have also had their share of persecutions.  The Communists did not discriminate when it came to sending Christians to the Gulags, and a lot of Baptists and other Protestants ended up there right next to the Orthodox.  Only thing is, they did not make deals with the Communists like Sergius and other "Orthodox" Bishops.  I don't even want to take the time to count the number of Protestant missionaries murdered trying to spread the Gospel.  Also, not all of Protestantism is a "do nothing, feel good" religion.  My father was a pastor in the LCMS and I was an elder in the WELS, and I have heard just as many "hellfire and brimstone" sermons (as well as preaching them myself) as I have heard in any Orthodox Church.  I have also heard, and preached myself, that Faith without Works is dead.  I find that many that condemn the three "Solas" of the Lutheran Church have absolutely NO idea of what they mean.  It is funny that in my town of Omaha, there are six Orthodox Churches and not one Orthodox school.  There are four WELS churches, two of which have schools.  None of the WELS churches are as large (member wise) as the largest Orthodox Churches, yet their own members support the Churches AND schools without bingo and ethnic festivals and the like.  The general view of the WELS (and LCMS) Churches that I have attended is "if our faith is so cold that we cannot even support our own pastors and workers, we do not deserve to exist".  If the Orthodox adopted this idea of Stewardship, we would likely only have one parish left in Omaha.  Interestingly, Greeks have been in Omaha nearly as long as anyone else, yet there was a Lutheran Hospital, a Methodist Hospital, and a Roman Catholic Hospital.  Is there even an Orthodox Hospital in the whole of the United States?  Our shelters are run by Protestants and Roman Catholics.  Six Orthodox Churches and no visible sign of outreach whatsoever.  THIS is what I am talking about when it comes to fruits.  You can talk about your “correct faith” all you want, but if your only expression of it is to come to Church once a week (and late at that), perform your rituals and go home, you have no faith that I am interested in.

To be clear, not all Orthodox are as mentioned above, nor are all Protestants.  There is plenty of good and bad in both.  But it does strike me as odd that the one truly self-supporting Orthodox Church in the area, one that has its people volunteer in the Protestant run shelters and who has no shortage of people to serve in the Church, and the one that is even having other Orthodox start attending (including half of our Russians) is headed by a convert priest and now has a church board that is fully comprised of converts.

And what is the point?  Simply this:  it is getting harder for me to believe that the Orthodox Church is the ONLY true Church when I see more of Christ outside of it than in.  Maybe we as Orthodox Christians need to stop making excuses and start living our Faith instead of talking about it, as the Patriarch of Moscow recently urged.  Maybe instead of trash talking the Protestants, we should be ashamed that so many of them practice what we preach.

I was actually just discussing this issue with The Mathematician a couple of days ago.  For most of the time I was a Protestant, I attended a non-denominational church in Arizona.  It had, probably, 500 regular attendees, most of whom were firmly in the middle class (with some on the lower end of it and some on the upper end).  At that church, we had the Senior Pastor, an Associate Pastor, a Music Pastor, a Children's Pastor, a High School Pastor, a College Pastor, a Jr. High School Pastor, a Director in charge of the pre-elementary school programs, several office staff, a preschool, Bible studies for adults and children on a couple of days out of the week, Wednesday night activities for the different youth groups (Elementary, Jr. High, and High School), a variety of groups that acted as out-reach to different types of people (e.g., a group for divorcees, which was quite instrumental in helping my mom right after we moved to Arizona, when my dad had left, a group for the sons of single mothers, with several adult males from the church leading it, which helped me quite a bit for several years), supported probably seven missionaries in foreign countries, held regular food drives and other charitable activities, and was contributing to the salaries of a few different pastors at new churches in the East Valley.  It certainly was far from teaching "faith without works is dead," yet the Greek parish I was attending when I was at ASU had probably just as many people, and was having to hold a second Greek festival - shortly after I started attending - to raise funds.  Most Orthodox parishes barely pay their priests, and it seems that few larger parishes ever contribute to mission priests within America.  This last Saturday, Fr. Chad Hatfield held a Lenten retreat at one of the OCA parishes in the Valley, and I had the chance to go.  While there, he made the comment that when he worked with OCMC, they had a goal - which they still have - of supporting just 25 missionaries in the foreign missions field.  They have never reached that goal.  Right now, they are supporting seven missionaries and six missionary families.  If a Protestant church - a heterodox church - with 500 people can support seven missionaries (not to mention contribute to multiple salaries of pastors at newly planted churches), then why can a Church - the Church - with over three-quarters of a million people in America, not support 25 missionaries?

[Maximum Bob]

These last several post seem to going to the same place I was in my earlier attempt to somewhat defend Protestantism. Not that I don't think they have things doctrinally wrong but, I don't see the Protestant Church as just being shallow and emotional. There may be some that are that way. My best friend in our previous Charismatic church, when we explained personally where we were going and why after we left that church, warned me that I was using reason and that would scare most charismatics. But, by and large these kind of active involved Churches is what I came out of. They were promoting outreach not just come get your fire insurance, but also some real meet peoples needs kind of stuff. In addition to this they also promoted prayer and Bible Study, they didn't have much about the Fathers, though that same friend had done a guest sermon or two on early Church history. But what they did know they wanted you to know not just hear.

Now I may be lucky the Orthodox Church I'm in now, has outreach working with the homeless and the poor, has a Church school class for adults as well as for kids, and is a vibrant and growing church. I haven't been to many other Orthodox churches but they way I hear many of them described here I would imagine that for people who don't have the knowledge of why they are going to the Church that has the history and the doctrine right, the rest of that could like pretty good.

[Justin Kissel]

Some of the more recent posts reminds me of a passage in St. Gregory the Theologian: "This we concede to you in whom we do find something of vital truth, who are sound as to the Son.  We admire your life, but we do not altogether approve your doctrine.  Ye who have the things of the Spirit, receive Himself in addition, that ye may not only strive, but strive lawfully, which is the condition of your crown." (Oration 41.8)   Admitting to divisions doesn't mean you can't also acknowledge when someone has something right, or when their conduct is praiseworthy.

[Maximum Bob]

Some of the more recent posts reminds me of a passage in St. Gregory the Theologian: "This we concede to you in whom we do find something of vital truth, who are sound as to the Son.  We admire your life, but we do not altogether approve your doctrine.  Ye who have the things of the Spirit, receive Himself in addition, that ye may not only strive, but strive lawfully, which is the condition of your crown." (Oration 41.   Admitting to divisions doesn't mean you can't also acknowledge when someone has something right, or when their conduct is praiseworthy.

I like that, thanks.

[Ortho_cat]

JamesR, your last post is so full of c*** that I am not going to bother to quote it.  "Mainline" Protestant denominations have been around for far more than 100 years.  Lutherans, Anglicans, and many Reformed have been here since Luther, Calvin and Zwingli started the Reformation (more than 500 years ago).  They have also had their share of persecutions.  The Communists did not discriminate when it came to sending Christians to the Gulags, and a lot of Baptists and other Protestants ended up there right next to the Orthodox.  Only thing is, they did not make deals with the Communists like Sergius and other "Orthodox" Bishops.  I don't even want to take the time to count the number of Protestant missionaries murdered trying to spread the Gospel.  Also, not all of Protestantism is a "do nothing, feel good" religion.  My father was a pastor in the LCMS and I was an elder in the WELS, and I have heard just as many "hellfire and brimstone" sermons (as well as preaching them myself) as I have heard in any Orthodox Church.  I have also heard, and preached myself, that Faith without Works is dead.  I find that many that condemn the three "Solas" of the Lutheran Church have absolutely NO idea of what they mean.  It is funny that in my town of Omaha, there are six Orthodox Churches and not one Orthodox school.  There are four WELS churches, two of which have schools.  None of the WELS churches are as large (member wise) as the largest Orthodox Churches, yet their own members support the Churches AND schools without bingo and ethnic festivals and the like.  The general view of the WELS (and LCMS) Churches that I have attended is "if our faith is so cold that we cannot even support our own pastors and workers, we do not deserve to exist".  If the Orthodox adopted this idea of Stewardship, we would likely only have one parish left in Omaha.  Interestingly, Greeks have been in Omaha nearly as long as anyone else, yet there was a Lutheran Hospital, a Methodist Hospital, and a Roman Catholic Hospital.  Is there even an Orthodox Hospital in the whole of the United States?  Our shelters are run by Protestants and Roman Catholics.  Six Orthodox Churches and no visible sign of outreach whatsoever.  THIS is what I am talking about when it comes to fruits.  You can talk about your “correct faith” all you want, but if your only expression of it is to come to Church once a week (and late at that), perform your rituals and go home, you have no faith that I am interested in.

To be clear, not all Orthodox are as mentioned above, nor are all Protestants.  There is plenty of good and bad in both.  But it does strike me as odd that the one truly self-supporting Orthodox Church in the area, one that has its people volunteer in the Protestant run shelters and who has no shortage of people to serve in the Church, and the one that is even having other Orthodox start attending (including half of our Russians) is headed by a convert priest and now has a church board that is fully comprised of converts.

And what is the point?  Simply this:  it is getting harder for me to believe that the Orthodox Church is the ONLY true Church when I see more of Christ outside of it than in.  Maybe we as Orthodox Christians need to stop making excuses and start living our Faith instead of talking about it, as the Patriarch of Moscow recently urged.  Maybe instead of trash talking the Protestants, we should be ashamed that so many of them practice what we preach.

I was actually just discussing this issue with The Mathematician a couple of days ago.  For most of the time I was a Protestant, I attended a non-denominational church in Arizona.  It had, probably, 500 regular attendees, most of whom were firmly in the middle class (with some on the lower end of it and some on the upper end).  At that church, we had the Senior Pastor, an Associate Pastor, a Music Pastor, a Children's Pastor, a High School Pastor, a College Pastor, a Jr. High School Pastor, a Director in charge of the pre-elementary school programs, several office staff, a preschool, Bible studies for adults and children on a couple of days out of the week, Wednesday night activities for the different youth groups (Elementary, Jr. High, and High School), a variety of groups that acted as out-reach to different types of people (e.g., a group for divorcees, which was quite instrumental in helping my mom right after we moved to Arizona, when my dad had left, a group for the sons of single mothers, with several adult males from the church leading it, which helped me quite a bit for several years), supported probably seven missionaries in foreign countries, held regular food drives and other charitable activities, and was contributing to the salaries of a few different pastors at new churches in the East Valley.  It certainly was far from teaching "faith without works is dead," yet the Greek parish I was attending when I was at ASU had probably just as many people, and was having to hold a second Greek festival - shortly after I started attending - to raise funds.  Most Orthodox parishes barely pay their priests, and it seems that few larger parishes ever contribute to mission priests within America.  This last Saturday, Fr. Chad Hatfield held a Lenten retreat at one of the OCA parishes in the Valley, and I had the chance to go.  While there, he made the comment that when he worked with OCMC, they had a goal - which they still have - of supporting just 25 missionaries in the foreign missions field.  They have never reached that goal.  Right now, they are supporting seven missionaries and six missionary families.  If a Protestant church - a heterodox church - with 500 people can support seven missionaries (not to mention contribute to multiple salaries of pastors at newly planted churches), then why can a Church - the Church - with over three-quarters of a million people in America, not support 25 missionaries?

many of our parishes are brimming over with "high rollers" as well...unfortunately there are no easy answers with this dilemma.

[David Young]

let's have delicious ethnic food regularly and invite non-orthodox friends and neighbours

I haven't got reasons for conversion to add to the discussion as it has progressed so far, but I like the idea in this quote!
 

[alanscott]

Wow, if I didn't know better, I would have thought I wrote that. I agree with you 100%. The Orthodox Christians in this country need to do a far more better job at living a truly Christian life. I know what you mean when you say it is difficult to see more of Christ outside of the Orthodox Church than in it. I've struggled with the same thing. I volunteer every month at a soup kitchen run by the Catholic Church. There are Protestant groups that run shelters and rehab facilities in my city as well. I can't really say much more that you haven't said

Flip every instance of "Orthodox" and "Protestant" and that is the same exact thing protestants say about us and RC's.

The truth of the matter is, Christians of all stripes need to do better. The reason is, Satan is tapdancing in our Churches, families, our lives, and what we do.

Its not an Orthodox thing, or a Protestant thing. Thinking it is, is simply foolish.

There are wonderful Protestant, Romans, and Orthodox. There are also terrible ones all the same.

If you see "Protestants" being more of the Church of Christ than Orthodox or Roman Catholics, you'll be sorely disappointed when you look deeper. You'll see yourself looking back at you because they do the same.

Satan wants us all to fail. He does not care about labels as we do.

PP

If I may ‘evolve’ your statement (as in I basically agree) to reflect my fears as I think there has been a lot mentioned here we can learn from.

What if satan does care about labels? You know, with that evil gleam in his eye. We all would agree he attacks us as individuals because individuals make up families and Churches that comprise God's Kingdom, and the devils goal is to bring down just that no?

 Yes, we all have significant theological differences that by all means should not be overlooked. Yet, does not our agreement and belief in the Love of our Lord Jesus Christ far out way any theological differences? I ask if satan may indeed care about labels, as these labels seem to be a great way for him to use confusion, being judgmental, anger, fear, distrust, resentment, etc. etc. etc. to divide us. Divide and conquer; the oldest trick in the book from the oldest trickster?

Again, I am not suggesting differences of theology or practice should be overlooked or down played. I certainly am not suggesting unifying Christianity. I do fear these differences are used against us though, by the evil one, to distract us from our Lord Christ and expose our humanity in destructive forms of judgment, self righteousness, resentment, anger, and sadly in some cases even hate. That I would think we all agree accomplishes satan’s goal not our Lords.

Then again, I am a repenting sinner and fool, so what do I know about it anyway?

Peace & Grace!

[alanscott]

**correct the above to 'far out weigh' not 'far out way'** lol

[David Young]

I have known a good number of people from an Orthodox cultural or family background who have become Evangelical. I did not know them beforehand, but I think they would say they did not previously enjoy an inward, personal faith. I have come across only one seriously committed Orthodox who became Evangelical - a Romanian priest, whose biography has been published in English. I read it some time ago, and regrettably I forget both the title and the author. I do not own the book myself.

In both these types of conversion, the conversions were based on new personal convictions, and I have no reason to believe that they excluded emotion; but I believe that underlying whatever mental or emotional level there was, there was also a level of of the spirit.

[Ortho_cat]

I have known a good number of people from an Orthodox cultural or family background who have become Evangelical. I did not know them beforehand, but I think they would say they did not previously enjoy an inward, personal faith. I have come across only one seriously committed Orthodox who became Evangelical - a Romanian priest, whose biography has been published in English. I read it some time ago, and regrettably I forget both the title and the author. I do not own the book myself.

In both these types of conversion, the conversions were based on new personal convictions, and I have no reason to believe that they excluded emotion; but I believe that underlying whatever mental or emotional level there was, there was also a level of of the spirit.

let us know if you ever find the name of that book

[akimori makoto]

I thought the lord changed his mind about holocausts a while ago

Nope. Now it's internal, rather than external.

Indeed, our whole bodies and our spirits are oblations to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

[David Young]

let us know if you ever find the name of that book

I shall attempt to track it down. It was on the shelves of the Mission's office where I worked till retirement, but the office has moved to the other side of the country now. I do recall that the book, which is a hardback, was published by GBV in Germany. GBV stands for Gute Botschaft Verlag (or it may be Gute Bücher Verlag; I seem to recall that it is in Dillenburg.

There was one other book I recall, not about a conversion as such, but certainly about a serious Orthodox being attracted to Protestant belief and practice: "Protestant Patriarch", about one of the patriarchs at Constantinople about the time of the Reformation. But doubtless you know all about him anyway. If not, I could try to find out the author and publisher.

[Azul]

I think some of them are doing it for financial purposes.Essp former priests or deacons.As I said in a previous post.Doing it for various  benefits.You can include here all categories : poors/homeless ; clerics ; city hall employers ; etc.For example in my city Arad there are full of sects.The Pentecostal cult was inserted into this country throught this city.Anyway the former mayor here was a secter himself.Many sectars here have good social position , own firms and etc.Apparently they have that small minority mentality among them.. They help one another in dirty things and one hand washes the other.. Many people got converted to sectarism for a better social structure, better job , a better influence, more money, etc.. And I presume that priests become pastors because this sectars are gullable and mounthly give a lot of their paycheck to their "church".And homeless or poor people simply do it for a meal, a place to start , etc.. I have met gypsies who were sectars.The guy was a singer he try to sell me some of his cds .Anyway all this examples are about the benjamins and about greed.

[David Young]

I think some of them are doing it for financial purposes.

I can speak only of Albania. It is true that many people attend, or have attended, Evangelical and Pentecostal meetings for the sake of the contact with Westerners, with a view to finding a visa to the West, or employment in the church's superstructure, or simply hand-outs. But they are usually easy to recognise as "rice Christians" and no-one accepts them as genuine converts to Evangelicalism (or to anything else), except perhaps those who hold that odd doctrine you Orthodox keep referring to, which must be held by some American Baptists and others, whereby a simple prayer once offered secures eternal salvation, regardless of the need for fruit worthy of repentance, a changed life, and a beginning in sanctification and good works.

People such as the Romanian priest I mentioned (and there are plenty such people moving between the Roman, Eastern and Protestant churches from time to time, in all three directions - and indeed from Islam to Christianity) often do so at great personal cost emotionally, socially and financially.

I suspect the discussion is really about this latter class of person, not about the "rice Christians" we all know about.

[FountainPen]

whereby a simple prayer once offered secures eternal salvation, regardless of the need for fruit worthy of repentance, a changed life, and a beginning in sanctification and good works.

David, sorry for the slight side note but didn't this very same issue come up in the form of infant baptism into the Orthodox church for someone who shows no interest in the church as they grow into adulthood? I am left wondering, what is the difference?

[David Young]

didn't this very same issue come up in the form of infant baptism into the Orthodox church for someone who shows no interest in the church as they grow into adulthood?

I hadn't noticed the link, or similarity, but I think you are right. In fact it seems to come up in most threads at some time or other! The idea that any one-off form of words, rite or act can secure an eternal benefit regardless of what follows is indeed the point at issue in such discussions. Of course we believe in death-bed repentance, which secures salvation, for I have little doubt that many are sincere: think of the thief on the cross beside our Lord. But where time and opportunity are extended, the genuineness of the words/act will become apparent - as will its nature when it is phoney. The subsequent growth in grace, into the image of Christ, does not earn salvation, which is an unmerited gift, but it shows that the gift has been genuinely accepted as what it is: the first step in a life and indeed an eternity of growing in the knowledge of God.

[Punch]

These last several post seem to going to the same place I was in my earlier attempt to somewhat defend Protestantism. Not that I don't think they have things doctrinally wrong but, I don't see the Protestant Church as just being shallow and emotional. There may be some that are that way. My best friend in our previous Charismatic church, when we explained personally where we were going and why after we left that church, warned me that I was using reason and that would scare most charismatics. But, by and large these kind of active involved Churches is what I came out of. They were promoting outreach not just come get your fire insurance, but also some real meet peoples needs kind of stuff. In addition to this they also promoted prayer and Bible Study, they didn't have much about the Fathers, though that same friend had done a guest sermon or two on early Church history. But what they did know they wanted you to know not just hear.

Now I may be lucky the Orthodox Church I'm in now, has outreach working with the homeless and the poor, has a Church school class for adults as well as for kids, and is a vibrant and growing church. I haven't been to many other Orthodox churches but they way I hear many of them described here I would imagine that for people who don't have the knowledge of why they are going to the Church that has the history and the doctrine right, the rest of that could like pretty good.

God be praised.  We need more parishes like yours!

[Maximum Bob]

These last several post seem to going to the same place I was in my earlier attempt to somewhat defend Protestantism. Not that I don't think they have things doctrinally wrong but, I don't see the Protestant Church as just being shallow and emotional. There may be some that are that way. My best friend in our previous Charismatic church, when we explained personally where we were going and why after we left that church, warned me that I was using reason and that would scare most charismatics. But, by and large these kind of active involved Churches is what I came out of. They were promoting outreach not just come get your fire insurance, but also some real meet peoples needs kind of stuff. In addition to this they also promoted prayer and Bible Study, they didn't have much about the Fathers, though that same friend had done a guest sermon or two on early Church history. But what they did know they wanted you to know not just hear.

Now I may be lucky the Orthodox Church I'm in now, has outreach working with the homeless and the poor, has a Church school class for adults as well as for kids, and is a vibrant and growing church. I haven't been to many other Orthodox churches but they way I hear many of them described here I would imagine that for people who don't have the knowledge of why they are going to the Church that has the history and the doctrine right, the rest of that could like pretty good.

God be praised.  We need more parishes like yours!

God be praised indeed, I see him doing a good work in our Church, and praise Him still further that we are not alone.

I am very fortunate and proud to say that my city can easily be considered a national hub for Orthodoxy. We have a AOCA cathedral, another AOCA parish , and a western rite. We have 2 missions operations that were founded and are run by Orthodox (a DUI victim center, and a center for helping mother's in crisis (Treehouse).

We have 8th day books, one of the most well known Orthodox book stores in the country. Associated with that we have the 8th day institute, which holds regular lectures and conferences from major speakers around the country. Also we have the publisher and founder of "Dynamis" devotional readings/materials (which are sent all across the country as well as to many of those in prisons). We are starting a K-5 classical based school out of the cathedral next year, and are working on planning to build a monastery within the next several years.

We have strong missions work currently going on in India (built a girls orphanage), Romania, starting in Thailand (training and educating laymen and clergy), and other places.

Even with all this, I feel that we have the potential to do so much more, and are just getting started in many ways.

I don't know, I hope it's not too much like "marketing", but while there is always room for improvement might there be some benefit also in sharing among ourselves success stories? Might we derive from that encouragement or inspiration? Modern day "testimonies", we called them in the Protestant church, of the small miracles that God is doing throughout his Church even now. Perhaps this is too Protestant of me or perhaps it's already happening and I don't know it, but for what it's worth....

[Fotina02]

These last several post seem to going to the same place I was in my earlier attempt to somewhat defend Protestantism. Not that I don't think they have things doctrinally wrong but, I don't see the Protestant Church as just being shallow and emotional. There may be some that are that way. My best friend in our previous Charismatic church, when we explained personally where we were going and why after we left that church, warned me that I was using reason and that would scare most charismatics. But, by and large these kind of active involved Churches is what I came out of. They were promoting outreach not just come get your fire insurance, but also some real meet peoples needs kind of stuff. In addition to this they also promoted prayer and Bible Study, they didn't have much about the Fathers, though that same friend had done a guest sermon or two on early Church history. But what they did know they wanted you to know not just hear.

Now I may be lucky the Orthodox Church I'm in now, has outreach working with the homeless and the poor, has a Church school class for adults as well as for kids, and is a vibrant and growing church. I haven't been to many other Orthodox churches but they way I hear many of them described here I would imagine that for people who don't have the knowledge of why they are going to the Church that has the history and the doctrine right, the rest of that could like pretty good.

God be praised.  We need more parishes like yours!

God be praised indeed, I see him doing a good work in our Church, and praise Him still further that we are not alone.

I am very fortunate and proud to say that my city can easily be considered a national hub for Orthodoxy. We have a AOCA cathedral, another AOCA parish , and a western rite. We have 2 missions operations that were founded and are run by Orthodox (a DUI victim center, and a center for helping mother's in crisis (Treehouse).

We have 8th day books, one of the most well known Orthodox book stores in the country. Associated with that we have the 8th day institute, which holds regular lectures and conferences from major speakers around the country. Also we have the publisher and founder of "Dynamis" devotional readings/materials (which are sent all across the country as well as to many of those in prisons). We are starting a K-5 classical based school out of the cathedral next year, and are working on planning to build a monastery within the next several years.

We have strong missions work currently going on in India (built a girls orphanage), Romania, starting in Thailand (training and educating laymen and clergy), and other places.

Even with all this, I feel that we have the potential to do so much more, and are just getting started in many ways.

I don't know, I hope it's not too much like "marketing", but while there is always room for improvement might there be some benefit also in sharing among ourselves success stories? Might we derive from that encouragement or inspiration? Modern day "testimonies", we called them in the Protestant church, of the small miracles that God is doing throughout his Church even now. Perhaps this is too Protestant of me or perhaps it's already happening and I don't know it, but for what it's worth....

Holy Orthodoxy has the Lives of the Saints. Saint Mary of Egypt was commemorated yesterday, a former prostitue who is model of repentance. She spent 47 years in the desert alone, not "helping" anybody, yet she has a Sunday of Lent in her memory. Personal repentance and transformation has high priority seems to be the message.

[Ortho_cat]

These last several post seem to going to the same place I was in my earlier attempt to somewhat defend Protestantism. Not that I don't think they have things doctrinally wrong but, I don't see the Protestant Church as just being shallow and emotional. There may be some that are that way. My best friend in our previous Charismatic church, when we explained personally where we were going and why after we left that church, warned me that I was using reason and that would scare most charismatics. But, by and large these kind of active involved Churches is what I came out of. They were promoting outreach not just come get your fire insurance, but also some real meet peoples needs kind of stuff. In addition to this they also promoted prayer and Bible Study, they didn't have much about the Fathers, though that same friend had done a guest sermon or two on early Church history. But what they did know they wanted you to know not just hear.

Now I may be lucky the Orthodox Church I'm in now, has outreach working with the homeless and the poor, has a Church school class for adults as well as for kids, and is a vibrant and growing church. I haven't been to many other Orthodox churches but they way I hear many of them described here I would imagine that for people who don't have the knowledge of why they are going to the Church that has the history and the doctrine right, the rest of that could like pretty good.

God be praised.  We need more parishes like yours!

God be praised indeed, I see him doing a good work in our Church, and praise Him still further that we are not alone.

I am very fortunate and proud to say that my city can easily be considered a national hub for Orthodoxy. We have a AOCA cathedral, another AOCA parish , and a western rite. We have 2 missions operations that were founded and are run by Orthodox (a DUI victim center, and a center for helping mother's in crisis (Treehouse).

We have 8th day books, one of the most well known Orthodox book stores in the country. Associated with that we have the 8th day institute, which holds regular lectures and conferences from major speakers around the country. Also we have the publisher and founder of "Dynamis" devotional readings/materials (which are sent all across the country as well as to many of those in prisons). We are starting a K-5 classical based school out of the cathedral next year, and are working on planning to build a monastery within the next several years.

We have strong missions work currently going on in India (built a girls orphanage), Romania, starting in Thailand (training and educating laymen and clergy), and other places.

Even with all this, I feel that we have the potential to do so much more, and are just getting started in many ways.

I don't know, I hope it's not too much like "marketing", but while there is always room for improvement might there be some benefit also in sharing among ourselves success stories? Might we derive from that encouragement or inspiration? Modern day "testimonies", we called them in the Protestant church, of the small miracles that God is doing throughout his Church even now. Perhaps this is too Protestant of me or perhaps it's already happening and I don't know it, but for what it's worth....

Oh I don't consider it marketing, just living out and expressing our faith as it's intended to be

[David Young]

let us know if you ever find the name of that book

"From Darkness to Light: the story of the former Orthodox priest Teodor Popescu"
by Horia Azimioara
publisher: GBV, Dillenburg, Germany (2003)

Teodor Popescu lived 1887-1963.

[augustin717]

Teodor Popescu formed a small church; they differ from other evangelicals in so far as they still baptize infants, though.

[primuspilus]

Teodor Popescu formed a small church; they differ from other evangelicals in so far as they still baptize infants, though.

Which over here, Evangelicals in my neck of the woods would call that heresy and begin figuring out how Satan infiltrated his church.

PP

[Ortho_cat]

let us know if you ever find the name of that book

"From Darkness to Light: the story of the former Orthodox priest Teodor Popescu"
by Horia Azimioara
publisher: GBV, Dillenburg, Germany (2003)

Teodor Popescu lived 1887-1963.

cool, thanks!  The title is rather ominous i have to say...lol

[Ortho_cat]

here is a book review:

http://www.believersmagazine.com/bm.php?i=20090104

"Teodor’s father was a priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church, while his mother Elena was a very capable woman who cared for her children. Teodor was the third oldest son, and was followed by six girls and one final boy.

As a young child, Teodor would watch his father moving slowly behind clouds of pungent incense. To Teodor, God was "as distant and intimidating as the thunder rolling off the Carpathian Mountains".

After graduating from Bucharest university, Teodor soon won the love and respect of the parishioners at the Stork’s Nest Church which he pastored. Commenting on this period in his life, Teodor later wrote, "I used to preach even before I had come to know the Lord Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour, but what was I preaching?" He relates how he tried to "get people to clean up their lives and keep God’s laws" but there was something missing.

Around this time his precious wife Athena took ill in the prime of life. Would she live or die? Turning to the Scriptures, Teodor personally discovered that salvation was by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. As he preached the gospel, souls were saved at the Stork’s Nest. The high clergy were not amused. He wrote, "I was constrained to violate the tradition. I could not do otherwise".

Excommunicated from the Orthodox Church and with nowhere to live, Teodor trusted in God and tirelessly reached out to remote areas with the gospel. After fifteen years, over two hundred assemblies had begun, though Teodor did not take credit for all of them. During the post-war communist era, Teodor kept preaching. He also translated an article by JN Darby against the error of universalism that began to creep in among the believers.

There is much to learn from this "humble and gentle man" who did not aspire to greatness in the eyes of men but sought to please the Lord."

[David Young]

here is a book review

Teodor trusted in God and tirelessly reached out to remote areas with the gospel. After fifteen years, over two hundred assemblies had begun, though Teodor did not take credit for all of them. During the post-war communist era, Teodor kept preaching. He also translated an article by JN Darby against the error of universalism that began to creep in among the believers.

There is much to learn from this "humble and gentle man" who did not aspire to greatness in the eyes of men but sought to please the Lord.

I'd say Amen to that.

[Ortho_cat]

here is a book review

Teodor trusted in God and tirelessly reached out to remote areas with the gospel. After fifteen years, over two hundred assemblies had begun, though Teodor did not take credit for all of them. During the post-war communist era, Teodor kept preaching. He also translated an article by JN Darby against the error of universalism that began to creep in among the believers.

There is much to learn from this "humble and gentle man" who did not aspire to greatness in the eyes of men but sought to please the Lord.

I'd say Amen to that.

Did you say that you read it? IF so, what were your impressions of it knowing what you know about us now? Was it a fair treatment of Orthodoxy?

edit: i think it must be out of print, amazon only has used copies starting at 35$

[David Young]

what were your impressions of it knowing what you know about us now? Was it a fair treatment of Orthodoxy?

i think it must be out of print, amazon only has used copies starting at 35$

I bought a new copy in Britain recently (last year, I think), though it had to be ordered especially from somewhere in the South of England, where perhaps they had unused copies left.

Impressions? One must remember that it was dealing with Romanian Orthodoxy in the period of Popescu's life. I have never been to Romania, but I have read a good deal about the treatment of Evangelicals by the Orthodox clergy in Greece (especially in the area near Thebes), in Sicily (among the Arbëresh), and in Albania (in Korçë), in all of which places an Evangelical movement broke out at about the same time, led by local men, not foreign missionaries, in the first two (Catrisiosis, Petta), and in Albania carried on by local people after the missionaries left because of the War, and the book seemed fairly in accord with them.

With "what I know about you now"? Well, you vary a lot among yourselves: some of you seem to have as passionate a love for Christ as one meets in any Baptist church, others seem... hmmm, I hardly know what to say: shall I say a little less "seasoned with salt"? I find Orthodox books, with the vivid exception of Peter Botsis, gentle, thoughful, deep and often nourishing, with a surprisingly large overlap of belief and aspiration with us. But most Orthodox seem less eager to propagate their faith than we do: I found nothing to attempt to draw me to Orthodoxy at the monasteries at Graçanica (pace those who like a little v atop the c!) or Preveli, even though both were open to the public and had shops for visitors.

Those are just a few immediate thoughts by way of reply.

[Gorazd]

augustin717,

Do you have any details about the man's excommunication from the Orthodox Church?

[Ortho_cat]

here is a book review:

http://www.believersmagazine.com/bm.php?i=20090104

"Teodor’s father was a priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church, while his mother Elena was a very capable woman who cared for her children. Teodor was the third oldest son, and was followed by six girls and one final boy.

As a young child, Teodor would watch his father moving slowly behind clouds of pungent incense. To Teodor, God was "as distant and intimidating as the thunder rolling off the Carpathian Mountains".

After graduating from Bucharest university, Teodor soon won the love and respect of the parishioners at the Stork’s Nest Church which he pastored. Commenting on this period in his life, Teodor later wrote, "I used to preach even before I had come to know the Lord Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour, but what was I preaching?" He relates how he tried to "get people to clean up their lives and keep God’s laws" but there was something missing.

Around this time his precious wife Athena took ill in the prime of life. Would she live or die? Turning to the Scriptures, Teodor personally discovered that salvation was by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. As he preached the gospel, souls were saved at the Stork’s Nest. The high clergy were not amused. He wrote, "I was constrained to violate the tradition. I could not do otherwise".

Excommunicated from the Orthodox Church and with nowhere to live, Teodor trusted in God and tirelessly reached out to remote areas with the gospel. After fifteen years, over two hundred assemblies had begun, though Teodor did not take credit for all of them. During the post-war communist era, Teodor kept preaching. He also translated an article by JN Darby against the error of universalism that began to creep in among the believers.

There is much to learn from this "humble and gentle man" who did not aspire to greatness in the eyes of men but sought to please the Lord."

I hate to say it, but judging by the bolded quote above, it is quite clear to me that this man knew little about Orthodoxy. If anything, Orthodoxy virtually shouts by her architecture, her liturgy, her theology, and her sacred mysteries, that "God is with us". It says that he had that impression as a child, but if he continued to believe such even while he was an active priest, that is very unfortunate indeed.

[augustin717]

augustin717,

Do you have any details about the man's excommunication from the Orthodox Church?

I remember that one of the reasons was that he skipped the "Most Holy Theotokos have mercy on us/save us" response .

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