Topic: Do People Convert to Protestantism Because of Emotion?

[JamesR]

Something I've wondered a bit. I have never met too many former Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox Christians who have converted to Protestantism. In fact, I do not think I have ever met an Orthodox Christian who did other than a few of the people on here who left the faith. But, judging from the people who have converted to it from RC or EO, does it seem that the only reason they have converted is because of emotion? I have never met a single person who converted to Protestantism who can give me theological or intellectual reasons for their conversion, but when questioned about it, they just give answers from despair. Maybe they married a Protestant and wanted to make life easier for their kids, maybe someone close to them died so they begin to reject the structure of the Church and go to Protestantism because it is very simple and watered down, or they just feel like they've had it in life and begin to doubt everything they learned from the Church and try to seek God through Protestantism as an individualist influenced by their emotions. Some of the most common excuses I have heard from people who converted to Protestantism were 'Well, the Church history and doctrine is just so confusing, there is more to it...etc..and I just can't understand it...' or '...Well this [bad event] happened to me and reason or structure doesn't matter anymore...emotion matters...etc..existentialism' What do the folks here think? My theory is that Protestantism satisfies that desire for spiritual laziness inside of us; that desire to think that we can be reconciled to God with a single confession of faith and never have to let it transform us or lead a life of improvement. Whereas, Orthodoxy reminds us that living the Christian life is not just going to be some stroll in the park and focuses on spiritual development and maturity rather than oral confessions and emotionally satisfying sermons.

[Punch]

I have know some who have coverted to Protestantism from Orthodoxy.  Your ideas had nothing to do with it.  Most were so poorly taught their Orthodox Faith that they could see no difference in what Orthodoxy taught and what Lutheranism taught.  Others found a Church that lived what it taught rather than a culture club.  Thankfully the Orthodox Church that I first joined was predominately Protestant converts (including the priest), or I probably would not have converted.

[JamesR]

I have know some who have coverted to Protestantism from Orthodoxy.  Your ideas had nothing to do with it.  Most were so poorly taught their Orthodox Faith that they could see no difference in what Orthodoxy taught and what Lutheranism taught.  Others found a Church that lived what it taught rather than a culture club.  Thankfully the Orthodox Church that I first joined was predominately Protestant converts (including the priest), or I probably would not have converted.

Interesting. I converted to Orthodoxy from Protestantism because of history. At the moment of discovering our Apostolic roots I knew that I would be converting no matter what was thrown at me. I had always been a history buff so I think that the history was more important to me than it is to most people.

[Alveus Lacuna]

Others found a Church that lived what it taught rather than a culture club.

There's a lot of truth to this, although those Protestant churches that live it out are becoming as rare as anything else these days.

[augustin717]

people tend to convert for silly, stupid reasons. period. whatever way it goes. an orthodox able to spew out quotes from the Philokalia is at least as annoying if not more so than an evangelical and his bible.

[JamesRottnek]

Nobody acts, in any way, completely devoid of emotion, unless they are seriously mentally disturbed.

[Ortho_cat]

people tend to convert for silly, stupid reasons. period. whatever way it goes. an orthodox able to spew out quotes from the Philokalia is at least as annoying if not more so than an evangelical and his bible.

very odd post... 

[Punch]

Others found a Church that lived what it taught rather than a culture club.

There's a lot of truth to this, although those Protestant churches that live it out are becoming as rare as anything else these days.

It is indeed rare in ALL denominations.

[Jason.Wike]

people tend to convert for silly, stupid reasons. period. whatever way it goes. an orthodox able to spew out quotes from the Philokalia is at least as annoying if not more so than an evangelical and his bible.

Have you ever actually met either?

[augustin717]

Those that convert because of the GTKTO campaign are the silliest IMO 

[Justin Kissel]

Those that convert because of the GTKTO campaign are the silliest IMO 

What is a GTKTO campaign?

[JamesR]

Others found a Church that lived what it taught rather than a culture club.

There's a lot of truth to this, although those Protestant churches that live it out are becoming as rare as anything else these days.

It is indeed rare in ALL denominations.

Good think Orthodoxy is not a denomination considering that we are the original and only undistorted form of Christianity whereas the term 'denomination' implies variation or change from the original, and the original is Orthodoxy itself.

[augustin717]

Those that convert because of the GTKTO campaign are the silliest IMO 

What is a GTKTO campaign?

Get to know the original

[Papist]

I have met some people who convert from Catholicism to Protestantism over more than emotions. These are the people who ususally only know a little of their faith, such that when the Protestant asks, "Where in the Bible does is say...?" the potential convert has no proper response.

[augustin717]

"Where in the Bible does is say...?" the potential convert has no proper response.

I heard the proper response actually given a few times  back home : "Go to your mother's &^%$ you and your Bible, the devil's "repenter" (the derisory name given to Baptist types  there, because of their insistence on repentance". Uttered by highly intoxicated Orthodox men.

[Justin Kissel]

I'm pretty sure most people are in the religious group they're in because of emotion, comfort, etc.  If going to a Protestant religion gives such people more comfort, then it's perfectly natural for them to go.

[Papist]

I'm pretty sure most people are in the religious group they're in because of emotion, comfort, etc.  If going to a Protestant religion gives such people more comfort, then it's perfectly natural for them to go.

In the case of many, you are probably right. Though, beyond that, there may be genuine experience of God that keeps them there as well.

[JamesR]

"Where in the Bible does is say...?" the potential convert has no proper response.

I heard the proper response actually given a few times  back home : "Go to your mother's &^%$ you and your Bible, the devil's "repenter" (the derisory name given to Baptist types  there, because of their insistence on repentance". Uttered by highly intoxicated Orthodox men.

That's one good response...I'm going to start using that one.

[That person]

I've been to highly emotional Protestant events, and I've seen people go down to devote their lives to Christ in tears. So I think it's safe to say that emotion factors into some conversions, but people adopt all sorts of ideas for all sorts of reasons. It's a tad unfair to stereotype.

[Maximum Bob]

Well my wife left the Roman Catholic church because she started asking questions and her priest told her she could stop with the questions or leave. Contrast that with the Inquirers class we go to now where the priest sits with a group of us for an hour and a half and says ask anything you want.

On the flip side of this discussion though.

All of the Protestant Churches, schools, camps and conferences I have attended encouraged people to live out their Christianity and promoted a pursuit of an ever deepening relationship with God. I didn't leave the Protestant church because it was overly emotional or lazy but rather because it was doctrinally incorrect and historically incomplete.

[William]

"Where in the Bible does is say...?" the potential convert has no proper response.

I heard the proper response actually given a few times  back home : "Go to your mother's &^%$ you and your Bible, the devil's "repenter" (the derisory name given to Baptist types  there, because of their insistence on repentance". Uttered by highly intoxicated Orthodox men.

That's one good response...I'm going to start using that one.

Well if you really want to imitate old country methods of repelling foreign proselytizers, you have permission from several elders to beat JWs. Have fun! 

[William]

I converted

I am converting

Fixed.

[JamesRottnek]

Others found a Church that lived what it taught rather than a culture club.

There's a lot of truth to this, although those Protestant churches that live it out are becoming as rare as anything else these days.

It is indeed rare in ALL denominations.

Good think Orthodoxy is not a denomination considering that we are the original and only undistorted form of Christianity whereas the term 'denomination' implies variation or change from the original, and the original is Orthodoxy itself.

All 'denomination' implies is that there are other groups claiming to be of the same religion.  That is all it means.

[Alveus Lacuna]

"Where in the Bible does is say...?" the potential convert has no proper response.

I heard the proper response actually given a few times  back home : "Go to your mother's &^%$ you and your Bible, the devil's "repenter" (the derisory name given to Baptist types  there, because of their insistence on repentance". Uttered by highly intoxicated Orthodox men.

That's one good response...I'm going to start using that one.

Uh-oh augustin717, a young Amerikan convertsky likes your anecdotes...are you going to cave-in on yourself now?

[PeterTheAleut]

I have know some who have coverted to Protestantism from Orthodoxy.  Your ideas had nothing to do with it.  Most were so poorly taught their Orthodox Faith that they could see no difference in what Orthodoxy taught and what Lutheranism taught.

This is kinda similar to a reason I heard once for why someone who grew up Orthodox ended up converting to Protestantism. The Orthodox churches she knew (in Communist Ukraine) did such a poor job teaching biblical Christianity that she joined a Protestant church because they actually taught the Bible.

[Ortho_cat]

I have know some who have coverted to Protestantism from Orthodoxy.  Your ideas had nothing to do with it.  Most were so poorly taught their Orthodox Faith that they could see no difference in what Orthodoxy taught and what Lutheranism taught.

This is kinda similar to a reason I heard once for why someone who grew up Orthodox ended up converting to Protestantism. The Orthodox churches she knew (in Communist Ukraine) did such a poor job teaching biblical Christianity that she joined a Protestant church because they actually taught the Bible.

such a thing is rampant in the old countries from what i've heard, so it's hard to blame them

[augustin717]

I have know some who have coverted to Protestantism from Orthodoxy.  Your ideas had nothing to do with it.  Most were so poorly taught their Orthodox Faith that they could see no difference in what Orthodoxy taught and what Lutheranism taught.

This is kinda similar to a reason I heard once for why someone who grew up Orthodox ended up converting to Protestantism. The Orthodox churches she knew (in Communist Ukraine) did such a poor job teaching biblical Christianity that she joined a Protestant church because they actually taught the Bible.

such a thing is rampant in the old countries from what i've heard, so it's hard to blame them

yeah, nobody there would get wth "biblical Christianity" means from my experience. I don't quite get it either, although I suspect it's some right wing Dobsonista sort of a thing

[Gorazd]

I have met a few converts from norminal Orthodoxy, both EO and OO, to Protestantism.
None of them really knew Orthodox theology, and their arguments in favour of Protestanism were not theological.

Usually, it was something like being warmly welcomed in Protestant communities, considering them to be "cool" and "western", enjoying the music, and having received help from members of the Protestant community they joined in difficult situations, such as loneliness, poverty and alcoholism.

Can we learn something from that experience?

Of course, we cannot present ourselves as "Western". But we can use our cultural difference in the West. For example, let's have delicious ethnic food regularly and invite non-orthodox friends and neighbours to the parish on such occasions.

As for modern music: I think, we should not in services, who should keep their heavenly and eternal character. But in youth meetings held in addition to services, it might be possible. The Coptic Church and, to a smaller degree, the MP do use modern music with Orthodox texts in youth meetings and seem to have to have some success with it.

The other two points are the most important: We must be welcoming and be ready to help people in difficulties. I just visited and EO monastery in Sweden who is doing just that. It is a wonderful place.

[PeterTheAleut]

I have know some who have coverted to Protestantism from Orthodoxy.  Your ideas had nothing to do with it.  Most were so poorly taught their Orthodox Faith that they could see no difference in what Orthodoxy taught and what Lutheranism taught.

This is kinda similar to a reason I heard once for why someone who grew up Orthodox ended up converting to Protestantism. The Orthodox churches she knew (in Communist Ukraine) did such a poor job teaching biblical Christianity that she joined a Protestant church because they actually taught the Bible.

such a thing is rampant in the old countries from what i've heard, so it's hard to blame them

yeah, nobody there would get wth "biblical Christianity" means from my experience. I don't quite get it either, although I suspect it's some right wing Dobsonista sort of a thing

Of course you would think that. However, anyone who reads his Bible daily can recognize easily that Orthodox Christianity is actually quite biblical.

[FountainPen]

I have know some who have coverted to Protestantism from Orthodoxy.  Your ideas had nothing to do with it.  Most were so poorly taught their Orthodox Faith that they could see no difference in what Orthodoxy taught and what Lutheranism taught.

This is kinda similar to a reason I heard once for why someone who grew up Orthodox ended up converting to Protestantism. The Orthodox churches she knew (in Communist Ukraine) did such a poor job teaching biblical Christianity that she joined a Protestant church because they actually taught the Bible.

Wouldn't a lot of scripture be in the liturgy that's sung in church throughout the year?

[primuspilus]

I have know some who have coverted to Protestantism from Orthodoxy.  Your ideas had nothing to do with it.  Most were so poorly taught their Orthodox Faith that they could see no difference in what Orthodoxy taught and what Lutheranism taught.

This is kinda similar to a reason I heard once for why someone who grew up Orthodox ended up converting to Protestantism. The Orthodox churches she knew (in Communist Ukraine) did such a poor job teaching biblical Christianity that she joined a Protestant church because they actually taught the Bible.

Wouldn't a lot of scripture be in the liturgy that's sung in church throughout the year?

Well FP, liturgy is saturated in scripture. I think in our liturgy (of St. Tikhon) there's something like 30+ references to scripture (most are direct quotes), but I think what Peter is refering to is being "grounded" in scripture. When I was in Russia doing the missionary thing, Orthodox that converted said that to them, it was all a show, and that they crossed themselves, venerated the icons, celebrated the eucharist, but it was "hollow". I think alot of the problem stems from doing things, and saying things, but not understanding WHY such things or done, or what it truly represents.

Me, who studied Orthodoxy in detail, albeit not a good job of it, prior to ever stepping foot in one, sees the scripture in the liturgy, and in the worship, and I know what is being referenced. However, growing up in the Church, one learns what to do and often times doesnt seek out why. its just like someone brought up in any church. There are things that are done that folks might not know truly, why. Ask a Lutheran who grew up in the Church and ask them, "why do you fold your hands during prayer", or ask a Baptist "why do you say In Jesus' Name" to end a prayer) and I would say 7 out of 10 could not tell you truly, why.

PP

[Punch]

Virtually every word of the Liturgy comes from Scripture.  However, there is a difference between hearing the same chants week after week, and actually reading the Scriptures and studying them.  As PtA wrote, a study of the Bible will prove the scriptural basis of Orthodoxy.  However, it is the study part that I find lacking in the Orthodox Church.  As we see in the New Testament, the Ethiopian asked Phillip how one could understand the Scriptures if there was nobody to explain them.  Perhaps this would not be such a problem IF we had a full cycle of services every day with all of the verses of the canons and the like.  However, unless you are in a monastery, you probably attend services once a week.  Protestant, and I believe the RC Church (at least according to the Roman Missal that I use at home), have adapted to this by going to a three year lectionary.  Orthodox are still on a one year lectionary, meaning that if you attend all of the services NORMALLY available to a layman, you will never hear vast portions of the Scriptures in Church.  However, even the three year lectionary is not a substitute for Bible study and reading from the Fathers.

I have know some who have coverted to Protestantism from Orthodoxy.  Your ideas had nothing to do with it.  Most were so poorly taught their Orthodox Faith that they could see no difference in what Orthodoxy taught and what Lutheranism taught.

This is kinda similar to a reason I heard once for why someone who grew up Orthodox ended up converting to Protestantism. The Orthodox churches she knew (in Communist Ukraine) did such a poor job teaching biblical Christianity that she joined a Protestant church because they actually taught the Bible.

Wouldn't a lot of scripture be in the liturgy that's sung in church throughout the year?

[Azul]

Something I've wondered a bit. I have never met too many former Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox Christians who have converted to Protestantism. In fact, I do not think I have ever met an Orthodox Christian who did other than a few of the people on here who left the faith. But, judging from the people who have converted to it from RC or EO, does it seem that the only reason they have converted is because of emotion? I have never met a single person who converted to Protestantism who can give me theological or intellectual reasons for their conversion, but when questioned about it, they just give answers from despair. Maybe they married a Protestant and wanted to make life easier for their kids, maybe someone close to them died so they begin to reject the structure of the Church and go to Protestantism because it is very simple and watered down, or they just feel like they've had it in life and begin to doubt everything they learned from the Church and try to seek God through Protestantism as an individualist influenced by their emotions. Some of the most common excuses I have heard from people who converted to Protestantism were 'Well, the Church history and doctrine is just so confusing, there is more to it...etc..and I just can't understand it...' or '...Well this [bad event] happened to me and reason or structure doesn't matter anymore...emotion matters...etc..existentialism' What do the folks here think? My theory is that Protestantism satisfies that desire for spiritual laziness inside of us; that desire to think that we can be reconciled to God with a single confession of faith and never have to let it transform us or lead a life of improvement. Whereas, Orthodoxy reminds us that living the Christian life is not just going to be some stroll in the park and focuses on spiritual development and maturity rather than oral confessions and emotionally satisfying sermons.

There are plenty of those here in Romania.The main reasons are ignorance , vulnerability and profiteering.

[augustin717]

No the main reason is the dying of a patriarchal, peasant pre-modern  world, where religion, pretty much like everything else was just a given, people didn't even gave much thought to.

[Azul]

No the main reason is the dying of a patriarchal, peasant pre-modern  world, where religion, pretty much like everything else was just a given, people didn't even gave much thought to.

What do you mean "religion was just a given' ?

[Ortho_cat]

No the main reason is the dying of a patriarchal, peasant pre-modern  world, where religion, pretty much like everything else was just a given, people didn't even gave much thought to.

so are you saying that the logical conclusion of this is that people convert to protestantism??

(now that the patriarchal, pre-modern world is dying, and religion is no longer a "given", with people giving more thought to it?  )

[Ortho_cat]

I have know some who have coverted to Protestantism from Orthodoxy.  Your ideas had nothing to do with it.  Most were so poorly taught their Orthodox Faith that they could see no difference in what Orthodoxy taught and what Lutheranism taught.

This is kinda similar to a reason I heard once for why someone who grew up Orthodox ended up converting to Protestantism. The Orthodox churches she knew (in Communist Ukraine) did such a poor job teaching biblical Christianity that she joined a Protestant church because they actually taught the Bible.

Wouldn't a lot of scripture be in the liturgy that's sung in church throughout the year?

you should attend a liturgy (or better yet, a cycle or weekly services) and see how much scripture is imbedded within it

[JamesRottnek]

No the main reason is the dying of a patriarchal, peasant pre-modern  world, where religion, pretty much like everything else was just a given, people didn't even gave much thought to.

so are you saying that the logical conclusion of this is that people convert to protestantism??

(now that the patriarchal, pre-modern world is dying, and religion is no longer a "given", with people giving more thought to it?  )

I think what he is saying is that people, when they have an option as to what religion to be, and are educated, stand a decent chance of changing it.  For instance, the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health and the General Social Surveys show a rise in atheism in line with a rise in intellect amongst adolescents and adults.  However, not long ago, I read a study that showed higher intelligence, in Asia, is correlated to higher rates of conversion to Christianity.

[augustin717]

No the main reason is the dying of a patriarchal, peasant pre-modern  world, where religion, pretty much like everything else was just a given, people didn't even gave much thought to.

so are you saying that the logical conclusion of this is that people convert to protestantism??

(now that the patriarchal, pre-modern world is dying, and religion is no longer a "given", with people giving more thought to it?  )

It' just one outcome. Other outcomes can be atheism, Buddhism, UFO you have it. But in the not so distant past religion wasn't as subject to personal choice as it is now and arguably, will be as time goes by.

[neon_knights]

Many people in the Slavic countries convert to evangelicalism because they find that Orthodoxy is mostly nominal there, and that most Orthodox (when in comparison to the first time they see Protestants, being "on fire" for God)do not really practice their faith. When they deeper examine Protestantism, they see Orthodoxy as legalistic in comparison.

[Punch]

Many people in the Slavic countries convert to evangelicalism because they find that Orthodoxy is mostly nominal there, and that most Orthodox (when in comparison to the first time they see Protestants, being "on fire" for God)do not really practice their faith. When they deeper examine Protestantism, they see Orthodoxy as legalistic in comparison.

There is that tendency. This is perhaps one of the things that causes me the greatest difficulty since my conversion.  My readings and studies caused me to believe that Orthodoxy was the Truth.  However, my 16 years in the Orthodox Church have caused me to reflect on the passage "you will know them by their fruits", and wonder why many Protestant Churchs live more like the Church of the book of Acts than the Orthodox Church.  Obviously, a good number of cradles have started to ask the same questions.

[Ortho_cat]

Many people in the Slavic countries convert to evangelicalism because they find that Orthodoxy is mostly nominal there, and that most Orthodox (when in comparison to the first time they see Protestants, being "on fire" for God)do not really practice their faith. When they deeper examine Protestantism, they see Orthodoxy as legalistic in comparison.

There is that tendency. This is perhaps one of the things that causes me the greatest difficulty since my conversion.  My readings and studies caused me to believe that Orthodoxy was the Truth.  However, my 16 years in the Orthodox Church have caused me to reflect on the passage "you will know them by their fruits", and wonder why many Protestant Churchs live more like the Church of the book of Acts than the Orthodox Church.  Obviously, a good number of cradles have started to ask the same questions.

it is an interesting phenomenon. what do you think are some of the reasons that we see this? Is it just cyclical thing? cause there are plenty of "nominal" evangelicals in the US...and there are plenty of people "on fire" for orthodoxy as well...

[akimori makoto]

Many people in the Slavic countries convert to evangelicalism because they find that Orthodoxy is mostly nominal there, and that most Orthodox (when in comparison to the first time they see Protestants, being "on fire" for God)do not really practice their faith. When they deeper examine Protestantism, they see Orthodoxy as legalistic in comparison.

There is that tendency. This is perhaps one of the things that causes me the greatest difficulty since my conversion.  My readings and studies caused me to believe that Orthodoxy was the Truth.  However, my 16 years in the Orthodox Church have caused me to reflect on the passage "you will know them by their fruits", and wonder why many Protestant Churchs live more like the Church of the book of Acts than the Orthodox Church.  Obviously, a good number of cradles have started to ask the same questions.

I think things are getting better, as much as I routinely despair of all the same matters.

You dudes in America are way ahead of we Australians. I am not even aware of an English-language parish in Eastern Sydney, let alone one which exhibits all the outward signs of being on fire for the Lord.

[Ortho_cat]

Many people in the Slavic countries convert to evangelicalism because they find that Orthodoxy is mostly nominal there, and that most Orthodox (when in comparison to the first time they see Protestants, being "on fire" for God)do not really practice their faith. When they deeper examine Protestantism, they see Orthodoxy as legalistic in comparison.

There is that tendency. This is perhaps one of the things that causes me the greatest difficulty since my conversion.  My readings and studies caused me to believe that Orthodoxy was the Truth.  However, my 16 years in the Orthodox Church have caused me to reflect on the passage "you will know them by their fruits", and wonder why many Protestant Churchs live more like the Church of the book of Acts than the Orthodox Church.  Obviously, a good number of cradles have started to ask the same questions.

I think things are getting better, as much as I routinely despair of all the same matters.

You dudes in America are way ahead of we Australians. I am not even aware of an English-language parish in Eastern Sydney, let alone one which exhibits all the outward signs of being on fire for the Lord.

aha...well like they say u need a spark to start a fire ...

[augustin717]

let alone one which exhibits all the outward signs of being on fire for the Lord.

Which would those signs be?