OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 20, 2014, 01:16:19 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Calvinism is Christianity!  (Read 1822 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
sprtslvr1973
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA; Jurisdiaction of Dallas and the South
Posts: 680


"Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20


« on: March 30, 2012, 11:28:18 PM »

Has anyone else come across this slogan? It seems to have become popular in certain Calvinist circles, and is professed quite heartily by some.
Do we know that Calvin's doctrines are not indeed preservation?
Logged

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,637


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2012, 11:30:35 PM »

Has anyone else come across this slogan? It seems to have become popular in certain Calvinist circles, and is professed quite heartily by some.
Do we know that Calvin's doctrines are not indeed preservation?
Preservation of what?
Logged
Tgebar
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 84


This is the edge now, it's all we're living for.


« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2012, 02:26:09 AM »

Calvinism is a resurgence of gnosticism.

http://robinphillips.blogspot.com/2011/03/are-calvinists-also-among-gnostics.html
Logged

Smiley
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,737


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2012, 02:26:30 AM »

I was expecting a fun debate where ialmisry would absolutely demolish some poor Calvinist but instead we get this Sad
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
jah777
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,934


« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2012, 06:06:22 AM »

Looking at the Evangelical Protestant world, I have found it very interesting to see a division into apparently two primary camps - the charismatic or semi-charismatic, fuzzy wuzzy, all you need is Jesus, "seeker-friendly", doctrine is dead, celebrity preacher, self-esteem boosting, fast and loose with the Scriptures, "we care about getting people in the door more than growing the people we have", "everyone is a prophet they just don't know it yet" types on the one hand; and then on the other hand it seems that everyone who speaks against this first camp, who emphasize the importance of doctrine, discernment, the cross of Christ, repentance, sobriety, etc. are all card-carrying and proud Calvinists.  Such a strange juxtaposition.

Of course, Calvinism was condemned as heretical by the 1672 Council of Jerusalem, and John Calvin himself declared to be a heresiearch by the same Council.  Is that the best that Protestants can do?   

http://books.google.com/books?id=m4kXAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=1672+council+jerusalem&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fdd2T5iMJMW_tge0odTdDg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=1672%20council%20jerusalem&f=false 
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,094


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2012, 06:18:14 AM »

Looking at the Evangelical Protestant world, I have found it very interesting to see a division into apparently two primary camps - the charismatic or semi-charismatic, fuzzy wuzzy, all you need is Jesus, "seeker-friendly", doctrine is dead, celebrity preacher, self-esteem boosting, fast and loose with the Scriptures, "we care about getting people in the door more than growing the people we have", "everyone is a prophet they just don't know it yet" types on the one hand; and then on the other hand it seems that everyone who speaks against this first camp, who emphasize the importance of doctrine, discernment, the cross of Christ, repentance, sobriety, etc. are all card-carrying and proud Calvinists.  Such a strange juxtaposition.

The Wesleyan holiness group I was a part of didn't fit into either category.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,847



« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2012, 06:57:55 AM »

Looking at the Evangelical Protestant world, I have found it very interesting to see a division into apparently two primary camps - the charismatic or semi-charismatic, fuzzy wuzzy, all you need is Jesus, "seeker-friendly", doctrine is dead, celebrity preacher, self-esteem boosting, fast and loose with the Scriptures, "we care about getting people in the door more than growing the people we have", "everyone is a prophet they just don't know it yet" types on the one hand; and then on the other hand it seems that everyone who speaks against this first camp, who emphasize the importance of doctrine, discernment, the cross of Christ, repentance, sobriety, etc. are all card-carrying and proud Calvinists.  Such a strange juxtaposition.

The Wesleyan holiness group I was a part of didn't fit into either category.

Nor Charismatic Episcopal Church.
Logged

sprtslvr1973
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA; Jurisdiaction of Dallas and the South
Posts: 680


"Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20


« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2012, 07:36:32 AM »

I was expecting a fun debate where ialmisry would absolutely demolish some poor Calvinist but instead we get this Sad

Give it time. Maybe some righteous Orthodox Christian will show their true Christian love with insult and verbal attack
Logged

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
alanscott
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant
Jurisdiction: Wesleyan
Posts: 309



« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2012, 07:11:53 PM »

Looking at the Evangelical Protestant world, I have found it very interesting to see a division into apparently two primary camps - the charismatic or semi-charismatic, fuzzy wuzzy, all you need is Jesus, "seeker-friendly", doctrine is dead, celebrity preacher, self-esteem boosting, fast and loose with the Scriptures, "we care about getting people in the door more than growing the people we have", "everyone is a prophet they just don't know it yet" types on the one hand; and then on the other hand it seems that everyone who speaks against this first camp, who emphasize the importance of doctrine, discernment, the cross of Christ, repentance, sobriety, etc. are all card-carrying and proud Calvinists.  Such a strange juxtaposition.

The Wesleyan holiness group I was a part of didn't fit into either category.

Nor Charismatic Episcopal Church.

True, the Wesleyan Doctrine wouldn't leave much room for either of those categories, and I believe neither would Episcopalian.

I'm not sure what denominations jah777 is including in the eveangelical Protestant world though? The statement very well may be more applicable when addressing Pentecostal and The Church of God for example.
Though I'm not sure they would fully accept category one exactly as its phrased here. Wink

sprtslvr1973; do you mean 'preservation' as in Kingdom of God? If so I'm wondering does Orthodoxy believe heresy results in absolute condemnation?

I have no authority but trying to think of how the Church I pray at would respond; We reject Calvinism considering it a false teaching and theology. False teachings have the danger of resulting in being misled away from God. We believe salvation comes only by the Grace of God, and that His Grace alone is sufficient, and given freely to all who seek and live in our Lord Jesus. We must cooperate fully with the Grace of Truth and Understanding as has been revealed to us, delivering that word to others as God commands, remaining mindful that we are but humble servants and that God alone will ultimately judge.
 
I'm simply trying through the struggle to live Truth as revealed to myself thus far. Praise God.

  
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 07:17:05 PM by alanscott » Logged

There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2012, 07:19:14 PM »

Looking at the Evangelical Protestant world, I have found it very interesting to see a division into apparently two primary camps - the charismatic or semi-charismatic, fuzzy wuzzy, all you need is Jesus, "seeker-friendly", doctrine is dead, celebrity preacher, self-esteem boosting, fast and loose with the Scriptures, "we care about getting people in the door more than growing the people we have", "everyone is a prophet they just don't know it yet" types on the one hand; and then on the other hand it seems that everyone who speaks against this first camp, who emphasize the importance of doctrine, discernment, the cross of Christ, repentance, sobriety, etc. are all card-carrying and proud Calvinists.  Such a strange juxtaposition.

The Wesleyan holiness group I was a part of didn't fit into either category.

Nor Charismatic Episcopal Church.

True, the Wesleyan Doctrine wouldn't leave much room for either of those categories, and I believe neither would Episcopalian.

I'm not sure what denominations jah777 is including in the eveangelical Protestant world though? The statement very well may be more applicable when addressing Pentecostal and The Church of God for example.
Though I'm not sure they would fully accept category one exactly as its phrased here. Wink

sprtslvr1973; do you mean 'preservation' as in Kingdom of God? If so I'm wondering does Orthodoxy believe heresy results in absolute condemnation?

I have no authority but trying to think of how the Church I pray at would respond; We reject Calvinism considering it a false teaching and theology. False teachings have the danger of resulting in being misled away from God. We believe salvation comes only by the Grace of God, and that His Grace alone is sufficient, and given freely to all who seek and live in our Lord Jesus. We must cooperate fully with the Grace of Truth and Understanding as has been revealed to us, delivering that word to others as God commands, remaining mindful that we are but humble servants and that God alone will ultimately judge.
 
I'm simply trying through the struggle to live Truth as revealed to myself thus far. Praise God.

  

I give this statement the official Ortho_cat imprimatur! Smiley
Logged
alanscott
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant
Jurisdiction: Wesleyan
Posts: 309



« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2012, 07:58:40 PM »

Looking at the Evangelical Protestant world, I have found it very interesting to see a division into apparently two primary camps - the charismatic or semi-charismatic, fuzzy wuzzy, all you need is Jesus, "seeker-friendly", doctrine is dead, celebrity preacher, self-esteem boosting, fast and loose with the Scriptures, "we care about getting people in the door more than growing the people we have", "everyone is a prophet they just don't know it yet" types on the one hand; and then on the other hand it seems that everyone who speaks against this first camp, who emphasize the importance of doctrine, discernment, the cross of Christ, repentance, sobriety, etc. are all card-carrying and proud Calvinists.  Such a strange juxtaposition.

The Wesleyan holiness group I was a part of didn't fit into either category.

Nor Charismatic Episcopal Church.

True, the Wesleyan Doctrine wouldn't leave much room for either of those categories, and I believe neither would Episcopalian.

I'm not sure what denominations jah777 is including in the eveangelical Protestant world though? The statement very well may be more applicable when addressing Pentecostal and The Church of God for example.
Though I'm not sure they would fully accept category one exactly as its phrased here. Wink

sprtslvr1973; do you mean 'preservation' as in Kingdom of God? If so I'm wondering does Orthodoxy believe heresy results in absolute condemnation?

I have no authority but trying to think of how the Church I pray at would respond; We reject Calvinism considering it a false teaching and theology. False teachings have the danger of resulting in being misled away from God. We believe salvation comes only by the Grace of God, and that His Grace alone is sufficient, and given freely to all who seek and live in our Lord Jesus. We must cooperate fully with the Grace of Truth and Understanding as has been revealed to us, delivering that word to others as God commands, remaining mindful that we are but humble servants and that God alone will ultimately judge.
 
I'm simply trying through the struggle to live Truth as revealed to myself thus far. Praise God.

  

I give this statement the official Ortho_cat imprimatur! Smiley

Now that I have looked the word up and considering my exposure to the 'Ortho_cat' thus far, I am humbled to have it!  laugh

On a side note Ortho my daughter and wife shared the link on Christian Mysticism with my daughters friend, brethren, and neighbor. I think they have only listened to Part 1 but all three definitely enjoyed it. Ty! 
Logged

There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,916



« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2012, 08:10:09 PM »

Calvinism is a resurgence of gnosticism.

Gnosticism is a resurgence of Straw Man.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 08:16:58 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
Posts: 2,352



« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2012, 10:23:01 PM »

Has anyone else come across this slogan? It seems to have become popular in certain Calvinist circles, and is professed quite heartily by some.
Do we know that Calvin's doctrines are not indeed preservation?
I have heard many a person say, "Calvinism is the Gospel." IIRC, the phrase originated with Charles Spurgeon.
Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2012, 10:32:29 PM »

Looking at the Evangelical Protestant world, I have found it very interesting to see a division into apparently two primary camps - the charismatic or semi-charismatic, fuzzy wuzzy, all you need is Jesus, "seeker-friendly", doctrine is dead, celebrity preacher, self-esteem boosting, fast and loose with the Scriptures, "we care about getting people in the door more than growing the people we have", "everyone is a prophet they just don't know it yet" types on the one hand; and then on the other hand it seems that everyone who speaks against this first camp, who emphasize the importance of doctrine, discernment, the cross of Christ, repentance, sobriety, etc. are all card-carrying and proud Calvinists.  Such a strange juxtaposition.

The Wesleyan holiness group I was a part of didn't fit into either category.

Nor Charismatic Episcopal Church.

True, the Wesleyan Doctrine wouldn't leave much room for either of those categories, and I believe neither would Episcopalian.

I'm not sure what denominations jah777 is including in the eveangelical Protestant world though? The statement very well may be more applicable when addressing Pentecostal and The Church of God for example.
Though I'm not sure they would fully accept category one exactly as its phrased here. Wink

sprtslvr1973; do you mean 'preservation' as in Kingdom of God? If so I'm wondering does Orthodoxy believe heresy results in absolute condemnation?

I have no authority but trying to think of how the Church I pray at would respond; We reject Calvinism considering it a false teaching and theology. False teachings have the danger of resulting in being misled away from God. We believe salvation comes only by the Grace of God, and that His Grace alone is sufficient, and given freely to all who seek and live in our Lord Jesus. We must cooperate fully with the Grace of Truth and Understanding as has been revealed to us, delivering that word to others as God commands, remaining mindful that we are but humble servants and that God alone will ultimately judge.
 
I'm simply trying through the struggle to live Truth as revealed to myself thus far. Praise God.

  

I give this statement the official Ortho_cat imprimatur! Smiley

Now that I have looked the word up and considering my exposure to the 'Ortho_cat' thus far, I am humbled to have it!  laugh

On a side note Ortho my daughter and wife shared the link on Christian Mysticism with my daughters friend, brethren, and neighbor. I think they have only listened to Part 1 but all three definitely enjoyed it. Ty!  

aw shucks...thanks!  Kiss

I'm so glad to hear that they enjoyed that podcast! It is really a great one, and clears up a lot of common misconceptions for sure. AFR is a veritable gold mine!  Smiley
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 10:33:27 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,618



« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2012, 10:46:24 PM »

I think Calvinism is Christianity, in a similar manner to how Mormonism is Christianity.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,994


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2012, 11:07:04 PM »

And parts is parts.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,127



« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2012, 11:15:03 PM »

I thought, from the title of this thread, that this was maybe an April Fools prank!
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,094


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2012, 11:16:10 PM »

An important question that hasn't been brought up yet: can we say that Greek is Christian if Greek is Christian is no longer Christian?
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Doubting Thomas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 874

Anglican (but not Episcopagan)


« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2012, 11:37:28 AM »

Has anyone else come across this slogan? It seems to have become popular in certain Calvinist circles, and is professed quite heartily by some.
Do we know that Calvin's doctrines are not indeed preservation?
I have heard many a person say, "Calvinism is the Gospel." IIRC, the phrase originated with Charles Spurgeon.

I was going to mention the same thing, but you beat me to it.

Statements like this are common among the Calvinistas.  It is amusingly ironic, however, to read statements from them decrying Armininians as 'heterodox', 'heretical', or 'barely Christian', when something like Arminianism is more in line with the consensus patri of the first several centuries, while TULIP is the doctrinal novelty.
Logged

"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
Doubting Thomas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 874

Anglican (but not Episcopagan)


« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2012, 11:41:31 AM »

Looking at the Evangelical Protestant world, I have found it very interesting to see a division into apparently two primary camps - the charismatic or semi-charismatic, fuzzy wuzzy, all you need is Jesus, "seeker-friendly", doctrine is dead, celebrity preacher, self-esteem boosting, fast and loose with the Scriptures, "we care about getting people in the door more than growing the people we have", "everyone is a prophet they just don't know it yet" types on the one hand; and then on the other hand it seems that everyone who speaks against this first camp, who emphasize the importance of doctrine, discernment, the cross of Christ, repentance, sobriety, etc. are all card-carrying and proud Calvinists.  Such a strange juxtaposition.

The Wesleyan holiness group I was a part of didn't fit into either category.

Neither do the Lutherans.
Logged

"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2012, 11:49:16 AM »

I think Calvinism is Christianity, in a similar manner to how Mormonism is Christianity.
+1 for sure.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,840


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2012, 03:29:28 AM »

Quote
Calvinism is Christianity

It may seem a somewhat wry answer, but it depends what you mean by "is". Now, before you think I am becoming impossibly abstruse, let me explain what I mean.

If we take the five TULIP doctrines as the essence of Calvinism, it would be very easy indeed to teach and preach the first two and the last two from scripture. The middle one - limited atonement - takes a bit (perhaps rather a lot) more wrestling with scripture, but it can be based on the Bible, if not extracted easily from it. (I think this is called eisegesis, as opposed to exegesis.) However, it can be done; and it does follow logically from the other four. That is my first point.

My second point is that many if not most of the great revivals of religion in the 18th and 19th centuries were led and spread by staunch Calvinists. Think of Jonathan Edwards in the States, George Whitefield in the States and Britain, more or less all the non-Wesleyan side of the revival in 18th century Britain, and then on into the 1858-1860 awakening in many parts of Britain. Whatever one makes of the distinctives of Calvinism, it is hard to deny that there enough truth in it for God to bless and use it in bringing many sinners to repentance and to faith in Christ alone for salvation.

Therefore, I think one can truly say that "Calvinism is Christianity." But that does not necessarily mean that "Calvinism is the whole of Christianity." Following the same two lines of argument, one can easily derive the Four Alls of Methodism from scripture; and one needs spiritual blindness not to perceive the blessing of God upon Methodism in many lands and many times. Again, multitudes of corrupt sinners, and of self-righteous persons too, have been brought to deep repentance and to trust in Christ as Saviour, Lord and Son of God. So one could equally well say that "Methodism is Christianity" - but it is not the whole of Christianity.

Indeed, over many years I have met, and known at length, a good number of convinced Calvinists, and convinced Arminians, who live lives of deep commitment to our Lord - indisputably truly Christian.

Charles Simeon was a great and influential Anglican minister in 19th century England. I believe one of his comments on this debate was that the truth does not lie somewhere between the two extremes, but in both extremes. The scriptures do seem to teach both, if one takes their plain meaning. Logically they cannot both be true. We must therefore relinquish either the plain meaning of some scriptures, or the use of human logic in fathoming the truth of God's thoughts and work. Is there mystery in God and God's ways which our minds cannot penetrate? Or is all divine truth reducible to a philosophical system of dogmas with no loose ends?
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,917


« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2012, 08:06:26 AM »

Personally I find there is much that seems good and practicle in the Arminian theology and living in faith. If there was acknowledgement of the Theotokos, prayers for the departed, the sacrament of infant baptism etc., I wonder if there could be greater potential for western Orthodoxy in which some of us in the west probably desire to be free from excesses that choke it off here like cults of autocrats, ritualism concrning the sign of the cross with 2 or 3 fingers etc.
Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,501



« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2012, 10:56:03 AM »


Indeed, over many years I have met, and known at length, a good number of convinced Calvinists, and convinced Arminians, who live lives of deep commitment to our Lord - indisputably truly Christian.

As indeed have I. If not for the faith in which I was raised (Wesleyan/holiness/Arminian), I would never have learned to love Christ and find the desire to know and worship Him more fully.

So, for the sake of discussion (if it seems rather argument, it's only to delve more deeply into the matter for the question that follows is not intended to reflect my position): are these people "indisputably truly Christian" because of or in spite of Calvinism and Arminianism?
Logged
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,840


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2012, 11:43:06 AM »

are these people "indisputably truly Christian" because of or in spite of Calvinism and Arminianism?

Neither: they are Christian because they believe in "the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me", and consonant with that belief have turned from their sin and begun to follow Christ. They are Christian because the Holy Spirit has "begotten them again to a living hope."

This is of course the same reason why some Orthodox, some Baptists, some Pentecostals, and so on, are truly Christian, whilst others have been through church rites and bear the name, but have never been united to Christ with a living faith. Like the people in Sardis who "have a name of being alive, but are dead."
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,501



« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2012, 01:36:38 PM »

are these people "indisputably truly Christian" because of or in spite of Calvinism and Arminianism?

Neither: they are Christian because they believe in "the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me", and consonant with that belief have turned from their sin and begun to follow Christ. They are Christian because the Holy Spirit has "begotten them again to a living hope."

This is of course the same reason why some Orthodox, some Baptists, some Pentecostals, and so on, are truly Christian, whilst others have been through church rites and bear the name, but have never been united to Christ with a living faith. Like the people in Sardis who "have a name of being alive, but are dead."
You're doing a pretty good job of agreeing with me  Wink.

It is the "isms" that tend to divide even the Protestants amongst themselves. Of course I say that with a bit of caveat that this applies only to English since Christianity in French, is "christianisme" and in Spanish "cristianismo".

And you, David, know too, that I have found Christ revealed more clearly in Orthodoxy than elsewhere - but that's for another discussion, much of which we've already had.

As a former Arminian Protestant, I would have heard "Calvinism is Christianity!" as sounding like a battle cry. For the most part now, I'm quite happy letting the Protestants sort this out on their own. If invited into discussion, then fine, but it's not an issue I would raise. It now strikes me as important as my discussing US politics with you. You and I each have our opinions, but the discussion would be pretty much in the abstract and be valuable only insofar as US politics affect our respective countries.
Logged
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,840


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2012, 02:39:49 PM »

If invited into discussion, then fine, but it's not an issue I would raise.

My sentiment precisely - unless with a very good friend who, I knew, would not mind at all if we disagreed.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Tgebar
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 84


This is the edge now, it's all we're living for.


« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2012, 02:31:38 PM »

Calvinism is a resurgence of gnosticism.

Gnosticism is a resurgence of Straw Man.

Come on man, I thought you may at least find the article interesting!  Tongue
Logged

Smiley
Fr Spyridon
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 99


FrSpyridon
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2012, 09:05:49 AM »

Calvinism is heresy. Calvin developed Roman heretical beliefs. The sad thing about the Reformation is that the heart of Roman heresy was never really dealt with; only built upon.
Calvin took the Augustinian idea of the fall as being truth. The Church believes that though we are fallen we retain enough of the image and likeness of God to be able to make free and real decisions about God. We are corrupted but not to the extent Clavin taught. he rejected the idea that we can make truly free choices and so developed his theory of double predestination.
For those of you who are not familiar with Orthodox doctrine, we have a much more positive understanding of humankind than do the Roman or protestant groups. The Church does not accept original guilt, it does not believe babies that die unbaptised go to hell, it does not see God as a wrathful monster who legalistically judges in the way those groups have led people to believe.
God is infinate love and forgiveness. The Church is the Body of Christ on earth whose members are being healed back to perfection. We are being called back to be by grace what God is by nature.
I therefore repeat: Calvinism is heresy.
Logged
sprtslvr1973
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA; Jurisdiaction of Dallas and the South
Posts: 680


"Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20


« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2012, 05:10:32 PM »

It does seem like there are quite a few Scripture verses that some believe vindicate total depravity Father Syripon
Logged

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,847



« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2012, 05:46:22 PM »

Calvin took the Augustinian idea of the fall as being truth.

No, he didn't. St. Augustine didn't believe in Total Depravity.
Logged

David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,840


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2012, 04:17:31 AM »

Calvin took the Augustinian idea of the fall as being truth.

No, he didn't. St. Augustine didn't believe in Total Depravity.

Hmmm... Without commenting either way on whether Augustine and Calvin were right or wrong on this matter, I thought that Father Spyridon was correct in saying that a straight line runs from Augustine's theology of original sin and total depravity to Calvin's, and thence to modern-day Calvinism. Can you, Alpo, validate your statement with references or quotations to Augustine's teachings?
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,847



« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2012, 04:34:55 AM »

Calvin took the Augustinian idea of the fall as being truth.

No, he didn't. St. Augustine didn't believe in Total Depravity.

Hmmm... Without commenting either way on whether Augustine and Calvin were right or wrong on this matter, I thought that Father Spyridon was correct in saying that a straight line runs from Augustine's theology of original sin and total depravity to Calvin's, and thence to modern-day Calvinism. Can you, Alpo, validate your statement with references or quotations to Augustine's teachings?

You ask from an Orthodox Christian on an Orthodox forum to provide proofs that an Orthodox Holy Father did believe in Orthodox doctrine? laugh

All I was saying was that St. Augustine didn't believe that fallen people are not icons of God anymore. However, if by "Augustinian" he was refering to not exclusively to Augustine but longer Augustinian theological tradition which started from Augustine but which might have differing viewpoints from Augustine I agree with him.
Logged

David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,840


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2012, 04:45:13 AM »

You ask from an Orthodox Christian on an Orthodox forum to provide proofs that an Orthodox Holy Father did believe in Orthodox doctrine?

No, I asked you to substantiate your assertion with references and/or quotations from Augustine.

Quote
St. Augustine didn't believe that fallen people are not icons of God anymore.

That's hardly uniquely Augustinian, unless I misunderstand you. Do we not all believe that man still retains the image of God, though marred by the Fall?
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,847



« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2012, 05:15:45 AM »

Do we not all believe that man still retains the image of God, though marred by the Fall?

Nope. IIRC the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity includes an idea that image of God was destroyed due to the Fall. I'm not a specialist of differences between Calvin and Calvinism so I basically assumed that Calvin held that view. Augustine might have held a rather strong emphasis on the Fall but I don't think I've ever heard anyone to claim that he believed that fallen people are not icons of God anymore.

Of course I haven't read his entire massive corpus of writings and books but only a small part of it so I might be wrong.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 05:24:18 AM by Alpo » Logged

Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.136 seconds with 64 queries.