We Cannot Be Sure Where the Church Is Not

[Asteriktos]

I was reading The Non-Orthodox by Patrick Barnes the other day, and got to thinking more about this topic. I believe it was Met. Kallistos who coined the phrase: "We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not." (The Orthodox Church, p. 308) But how far back does this teaching go, and what Church writers supported this notion? I know there is Khomiakov:

"The Church visible, or upon earth, lives in complete communion and unity with the whole body of the Church, of which Christ is the Head. She has abiding within her Christ and the grace of the Holy Spirit in all their living fullness, but not in the fullness of their manifestation, for she acts and knows not fully, but only so far as it pleases God. Inasmuch as the earthly and visible Church is not the fullness and completeness of the whole Church which the Lord has appointed to appear at the final judgment of all creation, she acts and knows only within her own limits; and (according to the words of Paul the Apostle, to the Corinthians, 1 Cor. 5. 12) does not judge the rest of mankind, and only looks upon those as excluded, that is to say, not belonging to her, who exclude themselves. The rest of mankind, whether alien from the Church, or united to her by ties which God has not willed to reveal to her, she leaves to the judgment of the great day." - Alexei Khomiakov, The Church is One, p. 11

Who else uses similar language? Which other church writers support the idea that the Church extends invisibly to people outside the visible walls?

Something else that I'm curious about, this one for the people who take the more rigorist approach. If you affirm that there is no salvation outside the Church, and you also say that the Church walls do not extend invisibly to people outside the Church, then how can people who are not Orthodox be saved?

[recent convert]

I think there is more contentment in mystery rejecting both universalism and reassurance in relation to the last judgement in Matthew 25:31-46. Since most people are non Orthodox Christians having hope for as many as possible is how I see the challenge of trying to be an Orthodox Christian in relation to such intellectually simple commands of Christ to love God & neighbor as self, the 10 commandments, the Beatitudes etc. which are most sublime ( & humbling). Just my 2 cents.

[Anastasios]

No Father that I know of taught that "we can't where the Church is not."  The Fathers very often defined the boundaries of the Church.

However, we know that the Holy Spirit is everywhere, and in that sense grace is everywhere; some coin this "charismatic grace" although some people do not like the distinction between "charismatic" and "sacramental" grace (although I think it is a natural distinction; nothing could be alive without grace, but we know that for instance the mysteries of heretics are not grace-bearing, so there must be a distinction).

No salvation outside the Church is a normative statement, but Christ can save whom he wills. We know that Christ is just, and it would not be just if say, you were condemned to hell just because you lived in N America before 1492 (or actually whenever the first Orthodox came here!)

While it is highly unlikely that those who are not baptized can be saved, at the same time, given that charismatic grace is everywhere, and given that Christ can save whom he wills, perhaps the people who truly follow him although in ignorance who have not had a chance to encounter the visible Church are given a chance to accept it through the truth written on their conscience. This would of course be an exception, an economy, which does not do away with the standard. If through charismatic grace someone is somehow grafted in to Christ, it is still not sacramental grace, and they still cannot attain deification in this life.

[JosephM]

It depends on your definition of Church and the walls that contain it.

Jhn 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 "God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Strange language for a Church with walls.........

Grace and Peace, Joseph

[Αριστοκλής]

It depends on your definition of Church and the walls that contain it.

Jhn 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 "God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Strange language for a Church with walls.........

Grace and Peace, Joseph

Quote seems to make a distinction between nominal Christians and those "born from above".

[JosephM]

It depends on your definition of Church and the walls that contain it.

Jhn 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 "God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Strange language for a Church with walls.........

Grace and Peace, Joseph

Quote seems to make a distinction between nominal Christians and those "born from above".

Yes, it does. I think the passage has more to do with the diaspora (the hot topic of the day) and the ability of God's people to worship wherever they are, instead of within a particular temple or jurisdiction. Jesus seems to be talking about a Church without walls, that ,never the less, must worship "the Father in spirit and truth". There is much to be said about orthodox worship (the Eucharist, etc.) that transcends self-imposed jurisdictional and ecclesiastical boundaries. In other words, the Eucharist (to continue the example) binds Christians together above and beyond any positional bond. To my knowledge, I have never been in the same building as you, but I have worshipped with you many times. The Spirit is the ultimate example of this unity. Just as the Gentiles received the Spirit prior to their Baptism, we must, like Peter, acknowledge the validity of other faithful believers who worship in Spirit and Truth, even if they did not come from among us or share our heritage and experiences. That's my take anyway.

Grace and Peace, Joseph

[Asteriktos]

No salvation outside the Church is a normative statement, but Christ can save whom he wills.

This seems like a paradox (in the positive sense). A place for mystery, as recent convert said.

[Anastasios]

No salvation outside the Church is a normative statement, but Christ can save whom he wills.

This seems like a paradox (in the positive sense). A place for mystery, as recent convert said.

I am not so sure it is--it is against the law to kill someone, but you don't go to jail if it is in self-defense. It's still killing though. One is a normative statement, and the other is the exception.

[Asteriktos]

Ahh, I see, good point.

[ozgeorge]

This seems like a paradox (in the positive sense). A place for mystery, as recent convert said.

Even before the Gentiles came into the Church, Christ referred to them as "His sheep":
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." (John 10:16).
So if the Gentiles were "His sheep" before the Church had even conceived of receiving them, couldn't some of "His sheep" still be outside of the visible Church, but still "His sheep"?

[Asteriktos]

Even before the Gentiles came into the Church, Christ referred to them as "His sheep":
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." (John 10:16).
So if the Gentiles were "His sheep" before the Church had even conceived of receiving them, couldn't some of "His sheep" still be outside of the visible Church, but still "His sheep"?

Sure, I wouldn't deny that some of His sheep are still outside the visible walls of the Church. However, I think this can be phrased/thought of in more ways than one, and doesn't necessarily endorse the "we don't know where the Church is not" idea.

[ozgeorge]

Sure, I wouldn't deny that some of His sheep are still outside the visible walls of the Church. However, I think this can be phrased/thought of in more ways than one, and doesn't necessarily endorse the "we don't know where the Church is not" idea.

I guess what we should establish first is:
what do we understand the phrase "we don't know where the Church is not" to mean?

[LBK]

Even before the Gentiles came into the Church, Christ referred to them as "His sheep":
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." (John 10:16).
So if the Gentiles were "His sheep" before the Church had even conceived of receiving them, couldn't some of "His sheep" still be outside of the visible Church, but still "His sheep"?

This passage refers to the Gentiles "who are not of this fold", i.e. of the Hebrew people of Israel. "One fold, one shepherd" means all believers, in a UNITY of faith, not a spectrum of faiths. Of course, it is God's prerogative, and His alone, to judge whether those outside of Orthodoxy will be saved. But for those of us in this world, our responsibility is to live the true faith, and proclaim the true faith, which is Orthodoxy, as best we can, according to the testimony of Christ, the Apostles, and the Fathers of the Church.

[ozgeorge]

This passage refers to the Gentiles "who are not of this fold", i.e. of the Hebrew people of Israel.

If that's true, then Christ is saying we have to be Hebrew.

[Myrrh23]

While it is highly unlikely that those who are not baptized can be saved, at the same time, given that charismatic grace is everywhere, and given that Christ can save whom he wills, perhaps the people who truly follow him although in ignorance who have not had a chance to encounter the visible Church are given a chance to accept it through the truth written on their conscience.

Especially in these last days, when many people have fallen away from the Church to seek their own wisdom and "Truth" or are apathetic on their journey towards God (I count myself somewhat in the latter group ). These same individuals who don't take too much stock in the Church often take their children with them (you know, the whole "I'm not going to raise my kids in any religion, but will let them choose" BS). I could not believe that Christ would condemn the children for the Parents' mistake of either not introducing Truth to them or presenting it in such a way that it scares them from further exploring the Truth.

[Asteriktos]

Ozgeorge,

I guess what we should establish first is:
what do we understand the phrase "we don't know where the Church is not" to mean?

In my understanding, it could have a range of meanings, depending on who you are talking to. To one person it might mean that we cannot exclude any groups/individuals outside of Orthodoxy, because we just don't know for sure; while to another person it might mean that we can exclude certain groups/individuals, but cannot exclude all groups/individuals from the Church.

Then there is the alternative theory that we should exclude all groups (though not necessarily all individuals) which are outside of Orthodoxy--taking literally the phrase "there is no salvation outside the Church". In that case, we can definitely say where the Church is not. The Church is not with the Jehovah Witnesses, it is not with the Mormons, and so forth. In essence, it is not with any group who are not part of the Orthodox communion.

To me the important part is that the Church keep her ability to protect her flock from those who would lead us astray. As I said in the other thread, excluding from the Church seems to me to be partly what the Councils were doing when they anathematized individuals and condemned teachings. They were giving a warning to stay away from certain people, and to avoid groups who hold to certain doctrines. If this is so, while the Church does not judge those who are outside her walls (1 Cor. 5:12-13), she still decides where her walls are.

[ozgeorge]

Ozgeorge,

I guess what we should establish first is:
what do we understand the phrase "we don't know where the Church is not" to mean?

In my understanding, it could have a range of meanings, depending on who you are talking to. To one person it might mean that we cannot exclude any groups/individuals outside of Orthodoxy, because we just don't know for sure; while to another person it might mean that we can exclude certain groups/individuals, but cannot exclude all groups/individuals from the Church.

Then there is the alternative theory that we should exclude all groups (though not necessarily all individuals) which are outside of Orthodoxy--taking literally the phrase "there is no salvation outside the Church". In that case, we can definitely say where the Church is not. The Church is not with the Jehovah Witnesses, it is not with the Mormons, and so forth. In essence, it is not with any group who are not part of the Orthodox communion.

To me the important part is that the Church keep her ability to protect her flock from those who would lead us astray. As I said in the other thread, excluding from the Church seems to me to be partly what the Councils were doing when they anathematized individuals and condemned teachings. They were giving a warning to stay away from certain people, and to avoid groups who hold to certain doctrines. If this is so, while the Church does not judge those who are outside her walls (1 Cor. 5:12-13), she still decides where her walls are.

Excellent answer! In fact Post of the Month nomination!

[LBK]

This passage refers to the Gentiles "who are not of this fold", i.e. of the Hebrew people of Israel.

If that's true, then Christ is saying we have to be Hebrew.

Nonsense. He is saying that all who follow Him, in spirit and in truth, be they Jew or Gentile, can attain the kingdom of heaven. Really, ozgeorge, it's obvious you don't like me, but it's really quite unnecessary for you to distort scripture just to try to get up my nose. 

[ozgeorge]

This passage refers to the Gentiles "who are not of this fold", i.e. of the Hebrew people of Israel.

If that's true, then Christ is saying we have to be Hebrew.

Nonsense. He is saying that all who follow Him, in spirit and in truth, be they Jew or Gentile, can attain the kingdom of heaven.

I guess I was confused by this:

This passage refers to the Gentiles "who are not of this fold", i.e. of the Hebrew people of Israel.

I still don't think "his fold" is "the Hebrew people of Israel".
Not all (in fact the minority) of the Hebrew people of Israel accepted Him as their Shepherd.
I think the "fold" is the Church (which at that stage had only Jewish members).

Really, ozgeorge, it's obvious you don't like me, but it's really quite unnecessary for you to distort scripture just to try to get up my nose. 

I really wish people would get over the idea that disagreeing with someone means you don't like them.

[GabrieltheCelt]

Then there is the alternative theory that we should exclude all groups (though not necessarily all individuals) which are outside of Orthodoxy--taking literally the phrase "there is no salvation outside the Church". In that case, we can definitely say where the Church is not. The Church is not with the Jehovah Witnesses, it is not with the Mormons, and so forth. In essence, it is not with any group who are not part of the Orthodox communion.

This is the understanding that I've been imparted with.  Of course, I could be wrong and I don't want anyone to get the impression that I condemn anyone (or group) to hell.

[JosephM]

Nonsense. He is saying that all who follow Him, in spirit and in truth, be they Jew or Gentile, can attain the kingdom of heaven.

Exactly. Jesus was talking to a halfbreed woman who belonged to a group that was despised by the Jews and considered irredeemable by most. This group that separated from the "orthodox Judaism" of the day could never the less find salvation in Jesus. Jesus moved the focal point of the faith from the temple to Himself. I don't think it is wise to try to move it back to a temple. If a group is faithful to Christ, their pedigree shouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately, pedigree has become the issue that is dividing the Church to this day. The only way to find unity is to rally around Jesus and worship God in Spirit and in Truth. As long as we keep setting up walls around us, we are no better that the Jews and Samaritans who were yet in their sins. We end up being like the judiazers of the first century, trying to get folks from different backgrounds to conform to our idea of what they should look like. Like Peter said, 'What God has cleansed you must not call common.'

Grace and Peace, Joe

[Asteriktos]

The walls of the Church are like fences that keep Orthodox Christians from falling off cliffs. They protect and guide Orthodox Christians, keeping them in the right faith. A wall is like saying "do not follow Arius, do not follow Nestorius." As the Scripture says: "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." (1 Tim. 4:16)

[AMM]

There is no definition of what the church is, which is why Metropolitan Kallistos is in effect right.

[JosephM]

The walls of the Church are like fences that keep Orthodox Christians from falling off cliffs. They protect and guide Orthodox Christians, keeping them in the right faith. A wall is like saying "do not follow Arius, do not follow Nestorius." As the Scripture says: "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." (1 Tim. 4:16)

There is a big difference between theological boundaries and jurisdictional barriers. We know from history that some of the venerated were heretical, and some of the chastised and rejected were righteous. I don't know about you, but I don't think the any of the Orthodox groups (which is a good rabbit to chase) are currently without fault. Sometimes the redemptive/corrective voices are outside of the walls of the Orthodox Church and are therefore never heard. 

If the walls are the definitive line, salvation becomes strictly a matter of membership and position while morality, faithfulness, godliness, holiness and purity become mere side issues. Membership in the Orthodox Church must either be the determining factor in our salvation or not the determining factor. If it is the determining factor, membership to a local Orthodox parish supercedes faithfulness and obedience.

Grace and Peace, Joseph

[LBK]

If the walls are the definitive line, salvation becomes strictly a matter of membership and position while morality, faithfulness, godliness, holiness and purity become mere side issues. Membership in the Orthodox Church must either be the determining factor in our salvation or not the determining factor. If it is the determining factor, membership to a local Orthodox parish supercedes faithfulness and obedience.

This is a gross misrepresentation and misunderstanding of what the Orthodox Church, and the Orthodox faith are all about.

[Anastasios]

There is no definition of what the church is, which is why Metropolitan Kallistos is in effect right.

That doesn't seem to be the case when reading such things as On the Unity of the Church by St Cyprian, various canons of the Church, etc.  The fathers had no problem defining who was outside the Church.

[JosephM]

If the walls are the definitive line, salvation becomes strictly a matter of membership and position while morality, faithfulness, godliness, holiness and purity become mere side issues. Membership in the Orthodox Church must either be the determining factor in our salvation or not the determining factor. If it is the determining factor, membership to a local Orthodox parish supercedes faithfulness and obedience.

This is a gross misrepresentation and misunderstanding of what the Orthodox Church, and the Orthodox faith are all about.

It is an either/or post. I haven't misrepresented anything. If you believe that membership is the determining factor, you can tell exactly where the Church is. If membership is not the determining factor, you cannot say where the Church is not. That is the topic of discussion, isn't it?

I personally believe the value of Orthodoxy is in its liturgy and theology, not it's membership. Perhaps this is why many have wisely refused to say were the Church is not.

Grace and Peace, Joseph

[JosephM]

There is no definition of what the church is, which is why Metropolitan Kallistos is in effect right.

That doesn't seem to be the case when reading such things as On the Unity of the Church by St Cyprian, various canons of the Church, etc.  The fathers had no problem defining who was outside the Church.

But we can all agree that Unity is a problem today, even in Orthodoxy. Metropolitan Kallistos knows that a mixed message is being sent, which is why he is trying to unite the various Orthodox groups. If we are yet united while being separate, the source of our unification must lie somewhere other than our affiliations. 

[tweety234]

Strange language for a Church with walls.........
Grace and Peace, Joseph

I may be wrong. But I totally agree with you. The true worship is the worship where you spend time taking care of someone else who needs you, rather than spending time praying only and taking care only of your soul.

I am guilty of that. Therefore, if I lose my salvation (God Forbid). It will be because of that. Not because I refuse to go to a specific building no matter how beautiful it may  be to worship.

I may be wrong but these are my 2 cents. No one has to agree or follow the same path.

[Ashman618]

Strange language for a Church with walls.........
Grace and Peace, Joseph

I may be wrong. But I totally agree with you. The true worship is the worship where you spend time taking care of someone else who needs you, rather than spending time praying only and taking care only of your soul.

I am guilty of that. Therefore, if I lose my salvation (God Forbid). It will be because of that. Not because I refuse to go to a specific building no matter how beautiful it may  be to worship.

I may be wrong but these are my 2 cents. No one has to agree or follow the same path.

My frind, I don't think that anyone is saying you have to go to a specific building, rather that one must worship in spirit and truth with a specific body of people.  When John wrote that passage in scripture I'm sure he had a specific idea of what worship in spirit and truth ment maybe you should research on how the apostle John worshiped. And for what it's worth this advice comes from someone outside the church walls.

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