Author Topic: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday  (Read 1574 times)

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Offline Papist

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Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« on: March 24, 2012, 09:58:47 AM »
I attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy for the first time. A few observations
1. The Liturgy was entirely in Arabic, so apart from the Creed, the Our Father, and the Consecration, I had no idea what was going on.  :D
2. People were surprised that I didn't speak Arabic, so all I can conclude is that Hispanics from New Mexico appear Arab.  :D
3. A friend of mine there informed me that Chaldeans and Christians from the ACoE have a formal agreement of intercommunion, so that many of the people at Liturgy could have been ACoE.
4. A friend's Greek Orthodox friend was there and I had a good conversation with him. He was very kind and respectful, making the sign of the cross whenever it was called for in the liturgy.
5. I had one of those "we need to fix all these stupid schisms" moments. There at that Liturgy were Roman Catholics, Chaldean Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, Christians of the ACoE, and a Greek Orthodox Christian, all worshiping Christ together. I know that there are still serious problems to be worked about between the Churches that are not in communion because of differences in faith on certain matters. However, sometimes, because of how close we are in faith, and in many cases, how close we are in praxis, the schisms just seem patently absurd.
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Offline biro

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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2012, 10:23:06 AM »
Glad you went there and that it was a positive experience.  :angel:

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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2012, 02:14:03 PM »
Disclaimer: This is not to suggest that our real differences are not significant.
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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2012, 02:19:42 PM »
I attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy for the first time. A few observations
1. The Liturgy was entirely in Arabic, so apart from the Creed, the Our Father, and the Consecration, I had no idea what was going on.  :D
2. People were surprised that I didn't speak Arabic, so all I can conclude is that Hispanics from New Mexico appear Arab.  :D
3. A friend of mine there informed me that Chaldeans and Christians from the ACoE have a formal agreement of intercommunion, so that many of the people at Liturgy could have been ACoE.
4. A friend's Greek Orthodox friend was there and I had a good conversation with him. He was very kind and respectful, making the sign of the cross whenever it was called for in the liturgy.
5. I had one of those "we need to fix all these stupid schisms" moments. There at that Liturgy were Roman Catholics, Chaldean Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, Christians of the ACoE, and a Greek Orthodox Christian, all worshiping Christ together. I know that there are still serious problems to be worked about between the Churches that are not in communion because of differences in faith on certain matters. However, sometimes, because of how close we are in faith, and in many cases, how close we are in praxis, the schisms just seem patently absurd.

Sounds like you had a great experience!  Good for you!!

As for the schisms---not only *are* they patently absurd, but sinful, too.  Just my *opinion*.  ;)
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2012, 02:20:52 PM »
I know the first time I heard "Allah" in a Christian context it was a bit surprising  ;)

Offline Peter J

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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2012, 08:59:05 AM »
I attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy for the first time. A few observations
1. The Liturgy was entirely in Arabic, so apart from the Creed, the Our Father, and the Consecration, I had no idea what was going on.  :D
2. People were surprised that I didn't speak Arabic, so all I can conclude is that Hispanics from New Mexico appear Arab.  :D
3. A friend of mine there informed me that Chaldeans and Christians from the ACoE have a formal agreement of intercommunion, so that many of the people at Liturgy could have been ACoE.
4. A friend's Greek Orthodox friend was there and I had a good conversation with him. He was very kind and respectful, making the sign of the cross whenever it was called for in the liturgy.
5. I had one of those "we need to fix all these stupid schisms" moments. There at that Liturgy were Roman Catholics, Chaldean Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, Christians of the ACoE, and a Greek Orthodox Christian, all worshiping Christ together. I know that there are still serious problems to be worked about between the Churches that are not in communion because of differences in faith on certain matters. However, sometimes, because of how close we are in faith, and in many cases, how close we are in praxis, the schisms just seem patently absurd.

Very interesting post. How far did you have to drive to get to that parish?
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2012, 11:43:39 AM »
2. People were surprised that I didn't speak Arabic, so all I can conclude is that Hispanics from New Mexico appear Arab.  :D

Are Assyrians Arabs or is it just that most of the members of that parish happen to be Arabs?

3. A friend of mine there informed me that Chaldeans and Christians from the ACoE have a formal agreement of intercommunion, so that many of the people at Liturgy could have been ACoE.

Huh? How is that possible that some local church can have an agreement on intercommunion with a heterodox church whereas some other local church from the same church can't?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 11:46:55 AM by Alpo »
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Offline biro

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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2012, 01:37:41 PM »
Did the local bishop give permission?

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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2012, 02:02:31 PM »
2. People were surprised that I didn't speak Arabic, so all I can conclude is that Hispanics from New Mexico appear Arab.  :D

Are Assyrians Arabs or is it just that most of the members of that parish happen to be Arabs?


As far as I can tell, the label "Arab" seems to have mostly to do with language/ culture, and could just as well be "Arabic-speaking." Many peoples who are not strictly Arabs in an ethnic sense (e.g. Syrians, Egyptians) are considered Arabs. People who spend a lot of time in the middle east start to notice the differences in general appearance between Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians, Egyptians, etc.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2012, 02:19:18 PM »
3. A friend of mine there informed me that Chaldeans and Christians from the ACoE have a formal agreement of intercommunion, so that many of the people at Liturgy could have been ACoE.

Oddly enough, this morning before seeing this thread, I started one on that topic:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=658876

Quote
1. When necessity requires, Assyrian faithful are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in a Chaldean celebration of the Holy Eucharist; in the same way, Chaldean faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist.

2. In both cases, Assyrian and Chaldean ministers celebrate the Holy Eucharist according to the liturgical prescriptions and customs of their own tradition.

3. When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East.

4. The above considerations on the use of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari and the present guidelines for admission to the Eucharist, are intended exclusively in relation to the Eucharistic celebration and admission to the Eucharist of the faithful from the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, in view of the pastoral necessity and ecumenical context mentioned above.

- Guidelines for admission to the Eucharist between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East (July 20, 2001)
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 02:20:46 PM by Peter J »
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2012, 02:22:01 PM »
2. People were surprised that I didn't speak Arabic, so all I can conclude is that Hispanics from New Mexico appear Arab.  :D

Are Assyrians Arabs or is it just that most of the members of that parish happen to be Arabs?

3. A friend of mine there informed me that Chaldeans and Christians from the ACoE have a formal agreement of intercommunion, so that many of the people at Liturgy could have been ACoE.

Huh? How is that possible that some local church can have an agreement on intercommunion with a heterodox church whereas some other local church from the same church can't?

To quote Violet Biggs, what's wrong with that?
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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2012, 02:28:15 PM »
2. People were surprised that I didn't speak Arabic, so all I can conclude is that Hispanics from New Mexico appear Arab.  :D

Are Assyrians Arabs or is it just that most of the members of that parish happen to be Arabs?

3. A friend of mine there informed me that Chaldeans and Christians from the ACoE have a formal agreement of intercommunion, so that many of the people at Liturgy could have been ACoE.

Huh? How is that possible that some local church can have an agreement on intercommunion with a heterodox church whereas some other local church from the same church can't?

To quote Violet Biggs, what's wrong with that?

And this is why the Episcopal Church can have an atheist bishop without any disciplinary action taken.

Offline biro

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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2012, 02:30:06 PM »
A what?

(rubs eyes)

Atheist bishop? Wow.  :o ???

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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2012, 02:35:42 PM »
Papist, are you sure it was entirely in Arabic? Since you don't speak Arabic, I'm assuming that Arabic and Assyrian Neo-Aramaic or Syriac probably sound pretty similar to you. I only speak a little Arabic, but I can tell when something is in some dialect of (Neo- or Classical/Syriac) Aramaic and when it is in Arabic.

Check out this Yemenite Shema in Aramaic and Arabic for a good general illustration of how different they sound. I'm not sure how well the East Syrian pronunciation of Classical Syriac corresponds to this, but this is the best I could find for side-by-side comparison.

I would be surprised (and very sad) to find that it was entirely in Arabic, as I used to watch the broadcasts from St. Peter's in San Diego on Kaldu TV (they stream it live on the internet, if anyone's interested), and they definitely maintained their native language as primary, though I do seem to remember a few more modern Arabic hymns sneaking in here and there (the core liturgical texts, and the sermon[!], were all in Syriac or the modern language). Though of course every place is different, and it's certainly easier to get along by melting into the general Arabic-speaking population wherever you are than to have to to explain to everyone what "Assyrian" or "Chaldean" is all the time. Alqosh proper (the sort of "first city" of the Chaldean uniat, in Iraq) now has a majority Arabic-speaking population, though Assyrians/Chaldeans/Syriacs are not Arab.

"Chaldean Anthem" in 'Chaldean' Neo-Aramaic

« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 02:39:52 PM by dzheremi »

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2012, 04:03:22 PM »
2. People were surprised that I didn't speak Arabic, so all I can conclude is that Hispanics from New Mexico appear Arab.  :D

Are Assyrians Arabs or is it just that most of the members of that parish happen to be Arabs?

3. A friend of mine there informed me that Chaldeans and Christians from the ACoE have a formal agreement of intercommunion, so that many of the people at Liturgy could have been ACoE.

Huh? How is that possible that some local church can have an agreement on intercommunion with a heterodox church whereas some other local church from the same church can't?

Any Roman Catholic can attend an Assyrian parish and commune, and vice-versa.
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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2012, 05:34:45 PM »
And this is why the Episcopal Church can have an atheist bishop without any disciplinary action taken.

I don't what bishop you're referring to, but I agree that's a pretty sad situation overall. The Church of England really should break off communion with the ECUSA, or at least declare some sort of "impaired communion", but they seem to be dead-set against any such action.
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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2012, 09:15:04 PM »
As for the schisms---not only *are* they patently absurd, but sinful, too.  Just my *opinion*.  ;)

Yes, it is patently absurd to defend the truth as it has been delivered to the saints once and for all for all time.  Let's just go ahead and inter-commune so we don't appear absurd to anyone.  Just my opinion, too, I suppose.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2012, 09:57:48 PM »
Let's just go ahead and inter-commune so we don't appear absurd to anyone. 

It sounds like you consider yourself a schismatic. :scratches chin:
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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2012, 10:12:35 PM »
2. People were surprised that I didn't speak Arabic, so all I can conclude is that Hispanics from New Mexico appear Arab.  :D

Are Assyrians Arabs or is it just that most of the members of that parish happen to be Arabs?


As far as I can tell, the label "Arab" seems to have mostly to do with language/ culture, and could just as well be "Arabic-speaking." Many peoples who are not strictly Arabs in an ethnic sense (e.g. Syrians, Egyptians) are considered Arabs. People who spend a lot of time in the middle east start to notice the differences in general appearance between Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians, Egyptians, etc.

Correct...however, Assyrians/Syriac people are not Arab and they are not Syrian. Their mother language is not Arabic (though most of them do speak Arabic). They are a semitic Middle Eastern people who speak various dialects of Syriac/Aramaic.

Yes, there are quiet a few differences in the culture, appearance, ethnicity, and dialect of Arabic spoken in the Arab countries. The Arabs have mixed with so many people and cultures that the results are distinct nationalities/ethnicities of the Arab people.
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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2012, 10:12:51 PM »
Papist, are you sure it was entirely in Arabic? Since you don't speak Arabic, I'm assuming that Arabic and Assyrian Neo-Aramaic or Syriac probably sound pretty similar to you. I only speak a little Arabic, but I can tell when something is in some dialect of (Neo- or Classical/Syriac) Aramaic and when it is in Arabic.

Check out this Yemenite Shema in Aramaic and Arabic for a good general illustration of how different they sound. I'm not sure how well the East Syrian pronunciation of Classical Syriac corresponds to this, but this is the best I could find for side-by-side comparison.

I would be surprised (and very sad) to find that it was entirely in Arabic, as I used to watch the broadcasts from St. Peter's in San Diego on Kaldu TV (they stream it live on the internet, if anyone's interested), and they definitely maintained their native language as primary, though I do seem to remember a few more modern Arabic hymns sneaking in here and there (the core liturgical texts, and the sermon[!], were all in Syriac or the modern language). Though of course every place is different, and it's certainly easier to get along by melting into the general Arabic-speaking population wherever you are than to have to to explain to everyone what "Assyrian" or "Chaldean" is all the time. Alqosh proper (the sort of "first city" of the Chaldean uniat, in Iraq) now has a majority Arabic-speaking population, though Assyrians/Chaldeans/Syriacs are not Arab.

"Chaldean Anthem" in 'Chaldean' Neo-Aramaic


There was definitely some Syriac or Neo-Assyrian. I recognized it because of its similarity to the Maronite Liturgy.

The most disturbing parts were the female altar servers (only female altar servers - no males), the priest celebrating on the tetrapod instead of the altar so he could face backwards, and the use of hosts. Yay bad Latinizations.

Them doing Stations of the Cross and praying the rosary after were weird too.

There were also a couple Maronites there too, I believe. Just adding to the diversity of Christians.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2012, 11:05:51 PM »
The most disturbing parts were the female altar servers (only female altar servers - no males), the priest celebrating on the tetrapod instead of the altar so he could face backwards, and the use of hosts. Yay bad Latinizations.

I always hear that the Byzantine-Rite EC Churches are the least latinized (or most de-latinized) of the EC Churches. What you're saying seems to fit with that.

I don't suppose you know what Creed they said?
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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2012, 06:18:50 AM »
To quote Violet Biggs, what's wrong with that?

Illogical Ecclesiology. I realize that there may have been similar situation among the Orthodox churches but I don't understand that either. I don't say though that it is wrong but I don't understand that.

2. People were surprised that I didn't speak Arabic, so all I can conclude is that Hispanics from New Mexico appear Arab.  :D

Are Assyrians Arabs or is it just that most of the members of that parish happen to be Arabs?

3. A friend of mine there informed me that Chaldeans and Christians from the ACoE have a formal agreement of intercommunion, so that many of the people at Liturgy could have been ACoE.

Huh? How is that possible that some local church can have an agreement on intercommunion with a heterodox church whereas some other local church from the same church can't?

Any Roman Catholic can attend an Assyrian parish and commune, and vice-versa.

Has Holy See approved that or is it just the Assyrian policy?
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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2012, 07:13:48 AM »
The most disturbing parts were the female altar servers (only female altar servers - no males), the priest celebrating on the tetrapod instead of the altar so he could face backwards, and the use of hosts. Yay bad Latinizations.

I always hear that the Byzantine-Rite EC Churches are the least latinized (or most de-latinized) of the EC Churches. What you're saying seems to fit with that.

Maybe this is because Orientals in general doesn't seem to be worried about latinizations or other loans from other rites as Byzantines seem to be? Among ECs and EOs this topic is somewhat controversial whereas Copts seem to be fairly happy with their Byzantine episcopal mitres and Armenians with their Latin loans.
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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2012, 08:24:00 AM »
Has Holy See approved that

Yes, it has.
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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2012, 10:19:43 AM »
To quote Violet Biggs, what's wrong with that?

In case anyone was wondering, that from It's a Wonderful Life.

Quote
Any Roman Catholic can attend an Assyrian parish and commune, and vice-versa.

Has Holy See approved that or is it just the Assyrian policy?

Well, that document says Chaldean Catholics specifically

Quote
1. When necessity requires, Assyrian faithful are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in a Chaldean celebration of the Holy Eucharist; in the same way, Chaldean faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist.

- Guidelines for admission to the Eucharist between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East (July 20, 2001)

But, in general, Catholics may request the sacraments from a non-Catholic minister if these conditions are met:
   a. necessity or genuine spiritual advantage
   b. when the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided
   c. it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister
   d. a church which has valid sacraments

The only difference I can see is that the Guidelines for admission to the Eucharist between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East doesn't mention the condition that there is "necessity or genuine spiritual advantage and when the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided". (Plus, it also says "[may] receive" rather than "[may] request" but that's just because it is understood that a priest of the ACoE won't object.)
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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2012, 12:09:04 PM »
I attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy for the first time. A few observations
1. The Liturgy was entirely in Arabic, so apart from the Creed, the Our Father, and the Consecration, I had no idea what was going on.  :D
2. People were surprised that I didn't speak Arabic, so all I can conclude is that Hispanics from New Mexico appear Arab.  :D
3. A friend of mine there informed me that Chaldeans and Christians from the ACoE have a formal agreement of intercommunion, so that many of the people at Liturgy could have been ACoE.
4. A friend's Greek Orthodox friend was there and I had a good conversation with him. He was very kind and respectful, making the sign of the cross whenever it was called for in the liturgy.
5. I had one of those "we need to fix all these stupid schisms" moments. There at that Liturgy were Roman Catholics, Chaldean Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, Christians of the ACoE, and a Greek Orthodox Christian, all worshiping Christ together. I know that there are still serious problems to be worked about between the Churches that are not in communion because of differences in faith on certain matters. However, sometimes, because of how close we are in faith, and in many cases, how close we are in praxis, the schisms just seem patently absurd.

Very interesting post. How far did you have to drive to get to that parish?
About 20 minutes. The liturgy was celebrated at our local Byzantine Catholic parish.
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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2012, 12:13:45 PM »
Papist, are you sure it was entirely in Arabic? Since you don't speak Arabic, I'm assuming that Arabic and Assyrian Neo-Aramaic or Syriac probably sound pretty similar to you. I only speak a little Arabic, but I can tell when something is in some dialect of (Neo- or Classical/Syriac) Aramaic and when it is in Arabic.

Check out this Yemenite Shema in Aramaic and Arabic for a good general illustration of how different they sound. I'm not sure how well the East Syrian pronunciation of Classical Syriac corresponds to this, but this is the best I could find for side-by-side comparison.

I would be surprised (and very sad) to find that it was entirely in Arabic, as I used to watch the broadcasts from St. Peter's in San Diego on Kaldu TV (they stream it live on the internet, if anyone's interested), and they definitely maintained their native language as primary, though I do seem to remember a few more modern Arabic hymns sneaking in here and there (the core liturgical texts, and the sermon[!], were all in Syriac or the modern language). Though of course every place is different, and it's certainly easier to get along by melting into the general Arabic-speaking population wherever you are than to have to to explain to everyone what "Assyrian" or "Chaldean" is all the time. Alqosh proper (the sort of "first city" of the Chaldean uniat, in Iraq) now has a majority Arabic-speaking population, though Assyrians/Chaldeans/Syriacs are not Arab.

"Chaldean Anthem" in 'Chaldean' Neo-Aramaic


There was definitely some Syriac or Neo-Assyrian. I recognized it because of its similarity to the Maronite Liturgy.

The most disturbing parts were the female altar servers (only female altar servers - no males), the priest celebrating on the tetrapod instead of the altar so he could face backwards, and the use of hosts. Yay bad Latinizations.

Them doing Stations of the Cross and praying the rosary after were weird too.

There were also a couple Maronites there too, I believe. Just adding to the diversity of Christians.
Yes, when I saw the female alter servers I feared for your blood pressure.  :D That being said, I was disturbed by this as well. I also felt that the tetrapod issue was strange as well, though I'm not certain that I would call that a latinization. I think they are just liturgical abuses.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Attended a Chaldean Catholic Liturgy Yesterday
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2012, 12:14:51 PM »
Papist, are you sure it was entirely in Arabic? Since you don't speak Arabic, I'm assuming that Arabic and Assyrian Neo-Aramaic or Syriac probably sound pretty similar to you. I only speak a little Arabic, but I can tell when something is in some dialect of (Neo- or Classical/Syriac) Aramaic and when it is in Arabic.

Check out this Yemenite Shema in Aramaic and Arabic for a good general illustration of how different they sound. I'm not sure how well the East Syrian pronunciation of Classical Syriac corresponds to this, but this is the best I could find for side-by-side comparison.

I would be surprised (and very sad) to find that it was entirely in Arabic, as I used to watch the broadcasts from St. Peter's in San Diego on Kaldu TV (they stream it live on the internet, if anyone's interested), and they definitely maintained their native language as primary, though I do seem to remember a few more modern Arabic hymns sneaking in here and there (the core liturgical texts, and the sermon[!], were all in Syriac or the modern language). Though of course every place is different, and it's certainly easier to get along by melting into the general Arabic-speaking population wherever you are than to have to to explain to everyone what "Assyrian" or "Chaldean" is all the time. Alqosh proper (the sort of "first city" of the Chaldean uniat, in Iraq) now has a majority Arabic-speaking population, though Assyrians/Chaldeans/Syriacs are not Arab.

"Chaldean Anthem" in 'Chaldean' Neo-Aramaic


The people I talked to told me that it was in Arabic, but as some Wetcatechumen points out, there were other languages.
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