Poll

Guilty or Innocent?

I think Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey are both guilty.
0 (0%)
I think Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey are both innocent.
3 (100%)
I think Steven Avery is innocent but Brendan Dassey is guilty.
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Author Topic: "Making A Murderer"  (Read 1710 times)

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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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"Making A Murderer"
« on: January 27, 2016, 12:47:45 AM »
Thought this documentary series was worth it's own thread.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39406.msg1374966.html#msg1374966

I confess that I'm no legal expert, and that's why stuff like this frustrates me so much. I'm basically forced to choose which I trust more: the legal system or the media. It's a coin toss. But this documentary sure does lead me to believe that these guys are innocent. Three drops of blood found in a car is evidence that a lady was raped, tortured, and then had her throat slit? What am I missing here?

(I tried to add a poll but accidentally pressed "save" before I could include the other options in the poll. Couldn't figure out how to modify the poll. Sorry about that.)

Selam
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 12:57:15 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: "Making A Murderer"
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2016, 10:32:48 PM »
Haven't had Netflix for a while, but I started (binge) watching this tonight. 3 episodes finished so far. I don't know if he did the post-release rape and killing (and not sure if this becomes more clear as the series goes on), but whatever the case, and whatever the docudrama is leaving out or spinning, the police involved seem either corrupt or shockingly incompetent or incomprehensibly vindictive.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 10:34:03 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: "Making A Murderer"
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2016, 11:50:12 PM »
Haven't had Netflix for a while, but I started (binge) watching this tonight. 3 episodes finished so far. I don't know if he did the post-release rape and killing (and not sure if this becomes more clear as the series goes on), but whatever the case, and whatever the docudrama is leaving out or spinning, the police involved seem either corrupt or shockingly incompetent or incomprehensibly vindictive.

Yeah. I won't spoil it for you though.

Selam
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Offline Aram

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Re: "Making A Murderer"
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2016, 01:51:57 AM »
After watching the series, reading a great deal about the case, and thinking about it...

I'm unsure about Steven Avery. I really have no idea. I want to feel that he's innocent, and I certainly think that whatever actually happened, that the police doctored the evidence to make sure he didn't beat the charges. That being said, this is a man who was already clearly victimized by the system once, and it's easy to see how it could have occurred again.

I am 100% positive that Brendan Dassey did not have the mental capacity to have committed the crimes for which he has been convicted. It's unconscionable that the prosecution against Dassey went forward at all, given the glaring issues with his confession, the unbelievable actions of his original attorney, and his capacity to understand the situation he was facing. They basically made one case against Steven Avery, and then turned around and made a completely different case against Brendan Dassey--regardless of the glaring factual issues at hand. The story Dassey was systematically coerced into presenting had no basis in any physical evidence found in the Avery trailer. The taped conversations with his family once he was in prison showed he had no grasp of what was happening to him. (The fact that he continually thought that telling the police what they wanted to hear would allow him to go home, and heck, the whole thing about asking his mom to tape Wrestlemania for him, shows that he was completely clueless as to what was happening.) The testimony did not match. The evidence that was presented didn't add up, and his defense team did little to combat it. And the fact that the prosecution had already gone public with explicit, purported details of the case that were, in fact, complete fabrications didn't do him any favors. He didn't have a chance.

In the end, if there's anything we can take from both this case and the case of Adnan Syed (of the NPR podcast Serial), it's that all of us should thank God every night that we're not facing prosecution in the American legal system--especially those of us who may be at an economic, social, or mental disadvantage. The pressure for prosecutors to procure convictions will always win over any reasonable defense an innocent and disadvantaged person may present. And that's scary.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 01:55:53 AM by Aram »

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: "Making A Murderer"
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2016, 02:04:46 AM »
After watching the series, reading a great deal about the case, and thinking about it...

I'm unsure about Steven Avery. I really have no idea. I want to feel that he's innocent, and I certainly think that whatever actually happened, that the police doctored the evidence to make sure he didn't beat the charges. That being said, this is a man who was already clearly victimized by the system once, and it's easy to see how it could have occurred again.

I am 100% positive that Brendan Dassey did not have the mental capacity to have committed the crimes for which he has been convicted. It's unconscionable that the prosecution against Dassey went forward at all, given the glaring issues with his confession, the unbelievable actions of his original attorney, and his capacity to understand the situation he was facing. They basically made one case against Steven Avery, and then turned around and made a completely different case against Brendan Dassey--regardless of the glaring factual issues at hand. The story Dassey was systematically coerced into presenting had no basis in any physical evidence found in the Avery trailer. The taped conversations with his family once he was in prison showed he had no grasp of what was happening to him. (The fact that he continually thought that telling the police what they wanted to hear would allow him to go home, and heck, the whole thing about asking his mom to tape Wrestlemania for him, shows that he was completely clueless as to what was happening.) The testimony did not match. The evidence that was presented didn't add up, and his defense team did little to combat it. And the fact that the prosecution had already gone public with explicit, purported details of the case that were, in fact, complete fabrications didn't do him any favors. He didn't have a chance.

In the end, if there's anything we can take from both this case and the case of Adnan Syed (of the NPR podcast Serial), it's that all of us should thank God every night that we're not facing prosecution in the American legal system--especially those of us who may be at an economic, social, or mental disadvantage. The pressure for prosecutors to procure convictions will always win over any reasonable defense an innocent and disadvantaged person may present. And that's scary.

+1

I'm a very simple man. I don't understand much. But I do understand that a murder committed in the manner that was described would certainly result in more evidence than two drops of blood found in a car. And I was frustrated that the defense didn't hammer that point home repeatedly.

Selam
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: "Making A Murderer"
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2016, 10:59:55 AM »
Finally watched the last episode last night. I really don't think Brendan was involved at all. The videos of his interrogations seem to clearly show a kid with limited capacity telling investigators what they want to hear to end the interminable grilling. That he did not receive a retrial is unbelievable - assuming the documentary is fair about what evidence has been presented.

As for Steven Avery, I don't know. I don't know if he did it or not. My gut leans that he did not, but the documentary is slanted in that direction. Again, assuming the evidence portrayed in the documentary reflects what was seen in the courtroom (10 hour documentary versus 200+ hours of in-court testimony), I have questions about whether he did it or not, but I do not think his guilt was really established. The media coverage poisoned the well against him before the trial even started, and the cops and prosecution were beyond questionable. He started the trial without the presumption of innocence. Of course, if he didn't do it, there's the really big "then who did?" out there. On the other hand, if he is supposed to have cut Ms. Halbach's throat on his bed, where in the world is the blood? Avery is not the sharpest guy in the world and yet apparently performed a world-class clean up of his room - and then left her car key in his bedroom.

If nothing else, the series puts the limitations of criminal justice on display...
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: "Making A Murderer"
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2016, 09:22:44 PM »
Finished watching. I need to look up all the stuff that was let out, because my God I don't see how they came to the decisions they did (or he--since the one judge made most of them). Just the thing with how competent Brendan was blows my mind. When his 'lawyer' Len sent that investigator to see Brendan, and he wanted him to fill out the paper, I literally paused it and just sat there in... well shock is too strong a word, but I couldn't believe what I was seeing. You hear about loaded questions, like "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" for which either a yes or no makes you look bad. That's exactly what this was, only much worse considering who was doing it and who it was being done to. Brendan's choices were: "Yes, I'm sorry for what I did: [raping and murdering that girl]," or "No, I'm not sorry for what I did, [I don't care that I raped and murdered that girl]." It's not even that Brendan didn't know how to respond in the situation--he didn't even know he was in that situation.

The poor way that law enforcement and the legal system (or at least some important people involved) had acted during that whole time--including the BS claim of the Sheriff's office doing what they could to avoid even the appearance of impropriety--seemed to be exposed a number of times. For me the quintessential moment was a rather minor one in the grand scheme of things, but it was when Brendan was being escorted back to the court house before the verdict was read... and one of the two officers escorting him was Colborn. Seriously? I'm surprised they didn't put Lenk on the other side just to give the middle finger with the other hand.

Having said that, even with the obvious bias, I still noticed Avery's defense lawyers twisting things several times, so all that 'we just want the truth' posturing got a bit grating. The response to the bullet fragment analyst testimony and the response to the 'if we wanted him gone we could have just killed him' bit come to mind; but then again I didn't see everything, so maybe they weren't so off after all... just hard to tell. One thing that kinda confused me at the time, and still confuses me, is why they left Brendan hanging out there with crap defenders. Later on he got better ones, but considering how important a part it seemed like he would play (especially before some of that was dismissed from being used in the Avery case), I'd have thought Avery and his lawyers would have been bending over backwards to try to make sure he was represented well. Is that something to do with rules because they were both charged and being tried? Like there can't be any involvement across certain lines for fear of intimidation or collusion or something? Either way, I felt horrible for the guy.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: "Making A Murderer"
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2016, 09:31:23 PM »
Quote
I think Steven Avery is innocent but Brendan Dassey is guilty.

Wouldn't the third option be the inverse of this? I don't think anyone argued that Dassey was guilty but Avery innocent, did they? Now the step-father and Brendan's brother... not mentioned at the trial or series (as we saw it), but I did wonder about that, as it seemed like either or both would have had the opportunity, little chance of being caught/seen (less than avery), weapons at the ready, etc., and as much or more motive as Steven. I'm not trying to work up some theory, just saying that it didn't seem mentioned/covered in the trial/docu (though obviously such suspicions wouldn't have went over too well with the defendants and their families).
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 09:31:57 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: "Making A Murderer"
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2016, 10:26:31 PM »
And then it turns out that the self-righteous prosecutor is a pretty sleazy guy. Not that his character has any bearing on whether or not the defendants are guilty or innocent, but it just goes to show you what you're up against if you're a poor person on the wrong end of the legal system.

Selam
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: "Making A Murderer"
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2016, 09:17:43 AM »
'Making a Murderer': Brendan Dassey conviction overturned

The conviction of Brendan Dassey, a Wisconsin man who appeared in the documentary "Making a Murderer," has been overturned by a federal judge in Milwaukee, according to court documents obtained by CNN.

Dassey was convicted in 2007 of the murder of photographer Teresa Halbach. In overturning the conviction, the judge cited the manner in which a confession was obtained from Dassey, who according to court documents has a low IQ.

Prosecutors have 90 days to bring Dassey, now 26, to trial again or he will be released...

Offline byhisgrace

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Re: "Making A Murderer"
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2016, 11:45:47 AM »
'Making a Murderer': Brendan Dassey conviction overturned

The conviction of Brendan Dassey, a Wisconsin man who appeared in the documentary "Making a Murderer," has been overturned by a federal judge in Milwaukee, according to court documents obtained by CNN.

Dassey was convicted in 2007 of the murder of photographer Teresa Halbach. In overturning the conviction, the judge cited the manner in which a confession was obtained from Dassey, who according to court documents has a low IQ.

Prosecutors have 90 days to bring Dassey, now 26, to trial again or he will be released...
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