Author Topic: Ukraine: Orthodox Church torn between its autonomy and its loyalty to Moscow  (Read 2858 times)

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Offline Peter J

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I don't have a comment so much as a question. This article was recently mentioned,

Quote
Ukraine: Orthodox Church torn between its autonomy and its loyalty to Moscow

Coup d’etat, putsch, schism. In the Ukraine, no one - or hardly anyone - is trying to paint a rosier picture when describing what is happening in the local Church which follows the Russian Orthodox rite.
 
The Church, which run by Metropolitan Vladimir since 1992, is the largest, in terms of followers, places of worship and priests, of the three Orthodox Churches that coexist in the Ukraine (we ought to add the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, linked to the Vatican) as a result of its tormented political history in the last century, which saw the country constantly torn between a frail autonomy and its ties to the cumbersome Russian neighbour.
 
...

 but I'm not too sure what to think of it. Can anyone read it and comment?
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline podkarpatska

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I wouldn't discount this because of the origin of this article. From my following of current political and religious trends in that region,  it is fairly accurate and reflects the political and nationalisitic divides within Ukraine, the machinations of the Russian (err Soviet-wannabe state) and the panslavist factions within the MP. Trouble may be brewing.

Offline Monk Vasyl

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Metropolitan Volodyrmr (Vladimir) is much loved by his clergy and the people, if they were to remove him that could be enough to cause a rift within the church in Ukraine.
The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl

Offline Gorazd

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Why cant we have an Estonian solution? Russian nationalists directly under the MP;
 normal and reasonable people of the MP would get a substantial autonomy under Constantinople (like Finland) and reunite with the schismatics, + Philaret would resign.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 05:12:04 PM by serb1389 »

Offline podkarpatska

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Why cant we have an Estonian solution? Russian nationalists directly under the MP;
 normal and reasonable people of the MP would get a substantial autonomy under Constantinople (like Finland) and reunite with the schismatics, + Philaret would resign.

Because it is rational and makes sense. That's why. ::)
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 05:12:37 PM by serb1389 »

Offline Cavaradossi

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Why cant we have an Estonian solution? Russian nationalists directly under the MP;
 normal and reasonable people of the MP would get a substantial autonomy under Constantinople (like Finland) and reunite with the schismatics, + Philaret would resign.

Because it is rational and makes sense. That's why. ::)

Do we really need to leave more overlapping jurisdictions for future generations to fix?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 05:12:49 PM by serb1389 »
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline Gorazd

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Why cant we have an Estonian solution? Russian nationalists directly under the MP;
 normal and reasonable people of the MP would get a substantial autonomy under Constantinople (like Finland) and reunite with the schismatics, + Philaret would resign.

Because it is rational and makes sense. That's why. ::)

Do we really need to leave more overlapping jurisdictions for future generations to fix?

An overlapping jurisdiction would be a minor evil, as opposed to schism. We already have two uncanonical churches in Ukraine, and it looks like there is a danger of one more schism. So, out of ikonomia, it would be good to have 2 canonical jurisdictions for now, as opposed to 1 canonical (but increasingly infested by heretical phyletism) and 2 or possibly soon 3 uncanonical.

As soon as the 2 canonical jurisdictions are established, things can cool down and normalise. In Estonia, it has gotten much better already. The two jurisdictions there now not only talk to each other, but concelebrate and share Holy Pascha.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 05:13:00 PM by serb1389 »

Offline ialmisry

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I don't have a comment so much as a question. This article was recently mentioned,

Quote
Ukraine: Orthodox Church torn between its autonomy and its loyalty to Moscow

Coup d’etat, putsch, schism. In the Ukraine, no one - or hardly anyone - is trying to paint a rosier picture when describing what is happening in the local Church which follows the Russian Orthodox rite.
 
The Church, which run by Metropolitan Vladimir since 1992, is the largest, in terms of followers, places of worship and priests, of the three Orthodox Churches that coexist in the Ukraine (we ought to add the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, linked to the Vatican) as a result of its tormented political history in the last century, which saw the country constantly torn between a frail autonomy and its ties to the cumbersome Russian neighbour.
 
...

 but I'm not too sure what to think of it. Can anyone read it and comment?

From "the Vatican Insider." Does more need to be said?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Metropolitan Volodyrmr (Vladimir) is much loved by his clergy and the people, if they were to remove him that could be enough to cause a rift within the church in Ukraine.
Unfortunately, it seems He might remove him.  Yes, it is going to be a problem.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Why cant we have an Estonian solution? Russian nationalists directly under the MP;
 normal and reasonable people of the MP would get a substantial autonomy under Constantinople (like Finland) and reunite with the schismatics, + Philaret would resign.
Why not an OCA solution?  Russian nationalists would have a Patriarchal Vicar, and the rest would get autocephaly.  The schismatics could reunite hopefully, and the deposed Met. Filaret and self proclaimed Patriarch could show whether he cares for Ukraine or himself.

I'm not sure the "Estonian solution" solved anything. Least of all in Estonia.

What does Constantinople have to do with any of it?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 05:13:27 PM by serb1389 »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Gorazd

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Why not an OCA solution?  Russian nationalists would have a Patriarchal Vicar, and the rest would get autocephaly.  

Ok, why not?

Offline Peter J

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From "the Vatican Insider." Does more need to be said?

I wouldn't discount this because of the origin of this article.

We seem to have entered some kind of temporal anomaly.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline ialmisry

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Why not an OCA solution?  Russian nationalists would have a Patriarchal Vicar, and the rest would get autocephaly.  

Ok, why not?
I got nothing.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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From "the Vatican Insider." Does more need to be said?

I wouldn't discount this because of the origin of this article.

We seem to have entered some kind of temporal anomaly.
No, a difference of opinion.

Though perhaps not so different.  My issue with the source is the glee that the Vatican and its supporters greet news of factionalism in the Ukraine.  The opposition of the Eparchy of Mukachevo, for instance, to incorporation into the UGCC seems to escape their detection.  Podkaparska focused more on the existence of our own problems as being a problem for us, not an opportunity for the Vatican.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Orest

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Why cant we have an Estonian solution? Russian nationalists directly under the MP;
 normal and reasonable people of the MP would get a substantial autonomy under Constantinople (like Finland) and reunite with the schismatics, + Philaret would resign.
Sounds good to me but I don't live in Ukraine.  The problem always goes back to Patriarch Filaret: why won't he resign?  The UAOC will not unite with the UOC-KP unless Patriarch Filaret resigns.  
Patriarch because of his past will never have credibility in the Orthodox world.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 05:16:22 PM by serb1389 »

Offline Peter J

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We seem to have entered some kind of temporal anomaly.
No, a difference of opinion.

No I mean like a time-travel situation:

From "the Vatican Insider." Does more need to be said?

I wouldn't discount this because of the origin of this article.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline ThePilgrim

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Why cant we have an Estonian solution? Russian nationalists directly under the MP;
 normal and reasonable people of the MP would get a substantial autonomy under Constantinople (like Finland) and reunite with the schismatics, + Philaret would resign.

I would object strongly to the characterization that everyone within the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church is a Russian nationalist.

The priest in the village where I lived spoke better Ukrainian than most people who lived there (who general spoke a highly Russified surzhyk).  From my experience, that wasn't at all uncommon.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 05:16:48 PM by serb1389 »

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Why cant we have an Estonian solution? Russian nationalists directly under the MP;
 normal and reasonable people of the MP would get a substantial autonomy under Constantinople (like Finland) and reunite with the schismatics, Philaret would resign.

I would object strongly to the characterization that everyone within the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church is a Russian nationalist.

The priest in the village where I lived spoke better Ukrainian than most people who lived there (who general spoke a highly Russified surzhyk).  From my experience, that wasn't at all uncommon.

In general, I agree with you.  More of this tends to be geographical.  Where I live the UOC-MP completely dominates, so it is more representative of the general population.   

Offline Gorazd

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I would object strongly to the characterization that everyone within the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church is a Russian nationalist.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I did not mean to characterise the UOC-MP that way at all. I would rather sa that the UOC-MP has two wings: One is Russian nationalist, the other one is what I would call pragmatic. They try to focus on spirituality, not politics. Politically, they would be either moderately pro-Ukrainian, moderately pro-Russian or completely unpolitical. Bishop Alexander represents that wing of the UOC-MP.

Offline Νεκτάριος

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I would object strongly to the characterization that everyone within the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church is a Russian nationalist.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I did not mean to characterise the UOC-MP that way at all. I would rather sa that the UOC-MP has two wings: One is Russian nationalist, the other one is what I would call pragmatic. They try to focus on spirituality, not politics. Politically, they would be either moderately pro-Ukrainian, moderately pro-Russian or completely unpolitical. Bishop Alexander represents that wing of the UOC-MP.

This is my experience as well.  In the East of the country, the MP is the Church so there isn't the exodus of normal people to other Orthodox Churches.  In Central Ukraine (outside of Kyiv) and Western Ukraine, the demographics of the UOC-MP tend to be much more Russian rather than representative of the local population. 

Offline podkarpatska

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From "the Vatican Insider." Does more need to be said?

I wouldn't discount this because of the origin of this article.

We seem to have entered some kind of temporal anomaly.
No, a difference of opinion.

Though perhaps not so different.  My issue with the source is the glee that the Vatican and its supporters greet news of factionalism in the Ukraine.  The opposition of the Eparchy of Mukachevo, for instance, to incorporation into the UGCC seems to escape their detection.  Podkaparska focused more on the existence of our own problems as being a problem for us, not an opportunity for the Vatican.
w\

It really is just looking at the same thing from a somewhat different point of emphasis. I agree that there are many in the Vatican who do seem to greet Ukrainian factionalism with delight - although it is somewhat ironic that there are probably just as many in Moscow who view such factionalism with their own delight.  And the Muchachevo situation is certainly one that Rome doesn't want to touch with a ten foot pole for a whole variety of reasons. Sort of a 'special vicariate' in reverse. Rome probably remembers the disaster in the US a century ago when they tried to merge the immigrants who originated from lands historically controlled by Mukachevo with members having ties to the UGCC.

Offline mike

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Rome probably remembers the disaster in the US a century ago when they tried to merge the immigrants who originated from lands historically controlled by Mukachevo with members having ties to the UGCC.

Could you give more details?

Offline podkarpatska

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Rome probably remembers the disaster in the US a century ago when they tried to merge the immigrants who originated from lands historically controlled by Mukachevo with members having ties to the UGCC.

Could you give more details?

The first Greek Catholic Bishop sent to the United States was Bishop Sotor Ortynsky, a Gallician, who was sent to administer all of the Austro-Hungarian Greek Catholics in 1907, including the Ruthenians(Rusyns now the BCC and ACROD and OCA) and the Gallicians (now self identified as UGCC and some of what is now the UOCUSA). While by all accounts he was a good man, he was rejected by the Ruthenian communities because he was not 'one of them'  and he was recalled to Europe either during or at the outbreak of the first war. A good deal of mistrust and dissension occurred within the Ruthenian community which resulted with some parishes splitting and following the late St. Alexis into Orthodoxy and the seed were planted for the second and third rounds of problems which followed  during the early 1920's and later, in the 1930's- leading to the establishment of the ACROD jurisdiction in 1938. Within Transcarpathia, which was annexed from Czechoslovakia to Ukraine following Potsdam at the end of WW2, the nationalist issues still swirl about with the Rusyn Identity movement at odds with the Ukrainian nationalists. The Rusyns there are more prominent within the Orthodox factions (ironically it is said that they are politically supported by Moscow politicians for their own reasons and the leader of the movement, Fr. Dymytry Sydor of the Holy Cross UOC-MP Cathedral in Uzhorod (the main Rusyn Orthodox center) is a leader of the local Rusyns and has been criminally prosecuted by provincial Ukrainian authorities for anti-state activities in recent years) but beneath the surface within the Greek Catholic community of the Eparchy of Muchachevo the Rusyns have a good deal of support as well. A situation better left alone from Rome's point of view - at least for now.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 10:52:33 AM by podkarpatska »

Offline mike

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Thanks.