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Author Topic: Why Aren't We Allowed to Marry Jews?  (Read 8568 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: March 26, 2012, 10:45:05 PM »

Here is a very good article about St. John's Homilies against the Jews;

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.asp

St. John was never bishop of Antioch, so that article's reliability was called into suspicion like two seconds into it for me.

Read for content. The article does not identify him as the Bishop.

"He was bishop of Antioch at the time of these sermons"
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« Reply #136 on: March 27, 2012, 12:36:47 AM »

Out of curiousity, do we have any notable Orthodox Saints who came from a Jewish background after the apostolic era?
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« Reply #137 on: March 27, 2012, 12:39:34 AM »

True story, I've never met a Jewish girl in my age group.
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« Reply #138 on: March 27, 2012, 01:02:06 AM »

Here is a very good article about St. John's Homilies against the Jews;

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.asp

Again, I really don't care what non-Orthodox have to say about him or it. I only accept sources that are Orthodox.
So everything Jaroslav Pelikan wrote before he became Orthodox is to be discarded as untrustworthy, even though we can see it now as part of his process of becoming Orthodox?
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« Reply #139 on: March 27, 2012, 01:06:59 AM »

Here is a very good article about St. John's Homilies against the Jews;

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.asp

Again, I really don't care what non-Orthodox have to say about him or it. I only accept sources that are Orthodox.
So everything Jaroslav Pelikan wrote before he became Orthodox is to be discarded as untrustworthy, even though we can see it now as part of his process of becoming Orthodox?

No, I regard writings from such men like Jaroslav, NT Wright, CS Lewis and GK Chesterton as being venerable and respectable. But they still are not on the same level as Orthodox writings, and are prone to more error because they are still written outside of the context of the Orthodox Church.

Also, the scholarly world is dominated by un-Christian, anti-Christian people, especially those under the influences of idiots like Bart Ehrman, or blasphemous and un-Christian (and anti-Christian) groups like the Jesus Seminar. You also have so-called "scholarly" people who reject the Church, and therefore they are unreliable.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 01:08:40 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #140 on: March 27, 2012, 01:13:04 AM »

Here is a very good article about St. John's Homilies against the Jews;

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.asp

Again, I really don't care what non-Orthodox have to say about him or it. I only accept sources that are Orthodox.
So everything Jaroslav Pelikan wrote before he became Orthodox is to be discarded as untrustworthy, even though we can see it now as part of his process of becoming Orthodox?

No, I regard writings from such men like Jaroslav, NT Wright, CS Lewis and GK Chesterton as being venerable and respectable. But they still are not on the same level as Orthodox writings, and are prone to more error because they are still written outside of the context of the Orthodox Church.

Also, the scholarly world is dominated by un-Christian, anti-Christian people, especially those under the influences of idiots like Bart Ehrman, or blasphemous and un-Christian (and anti-Christian) groups like the Jesus Seminar. You also have so-called "scholarly" people who reject the Church, and therefore they are unreliable.
So you admit to backtracking from your earlier insistence that we are to reject scholarly claims regarding St. John Chrysostom for no other reason than the fact that they're not Orthodox? After all, you just stated that there's really more to scholarly reliability than just one's religious persuasion.
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« Reply #141 on: March 27, 2012, 01:43:02 AM »

No, I'm not backtracking, those men were very close to being Orthodox, of they had more time and our Church pursued them in an honest manner, I have little doubt they would have become Orthodox like Jaroslav.

They are the rare exception to the rule.
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« Reply #142 on: March 27, 2012, 02:03:35 AM »

No, I'm not backtracking, those men were very close to being Orthodox, of they had more time and our Church pursued them in an honest manner, I have little doubt they would have become Orthodox like Jaroslav.

They are the rare exception to the rule.
Did you not counsel us to reject non-Orthodox scholarship for the sole reason that it's not Orthodox? Now you're telling us that it's okay to accept the scholarship of those whom you deem "close to Orthodox". You're either engaging in the special pleading fallacy or you're just backtracking from your earlier absolute claim. Now which is it?
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« Reply #143 on: March 27, 2012, 09:37:54 AM »

Here is a very good article about St. John's Homilies against the Jews;

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.asp

St. John was never bishop of Antioch, so that article's reliability was called into suspicion like two seconds into it for me.

Read for content. The article does not identify him as the Bishop.

"He was bishop of Antioch at the time of these sermons"

Actually, I read he was just a Reader when he delivered those sermons.

They are like an Internet fight, not a catechism. The rhetorical style was to hurl as many insults at your opponent as you could These are not meant to be sound doctrinal statements that you would teach to your children. He was trying to scare off his flock from attending Jewish Festivals.

They are not considered his best moment.

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« Reply #144 on: March 27, 2012, 10:31:02 AM »

Here is a very good article about St. John's Homilies against the Jews;

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.asp

St. John was never bishop of Antioch, so that article's reliability was called into suspicion like two seconds into it for me.

Read for content. The article does not identify him as the Bishop.

"He was bishop of Antioch at the time of these sermons"
They are not considered his best moment.
So says the one who loves Judaism...
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« Reply #145 on: March 27, 2012, 11:28:11 AM »

Here is a very good article about St. John's Homilies against the Jews;

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.asp

St. John was never bishop of Antioch, so that article's reliability was called into suspicion like two seconds into it for me.

Read for content. The article does not identify him as the Bishop.

"He was bishop of Antioch at the time of these sermons"
They are not considered his best moment.
So says the one who loves Judaism...
Everybody loves Judaism.
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« Reply #146 on: March 27, 2012, 11:47:20 AM »

Here is a very good article about St. John's Homilies against the Jews;

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.asp

St. John was never bishop of Antioch, so that article's reliability was called into suspicion like two seconds into it for me.

Read for content. The article does not identify him as the Bishop.

"He was bishop of Antioch at the time of these sermons"
They are not considered his best moment.
So says the one who loves Judaism...
Everybody loves Judaism.


You shouldn't , heed the words of not just St John Chrysostom but also St Augustine...
"Hate the sin, love the dinner..."

Jesus was a true Jew, unlike the modern day Satanic corruption...

Flee from Judaizing my friend, it's a vile and disgusting heresy.
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« Reply #147 on: March 27, 2012, 11:50:21 AM »

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What's the one thing the is unique about Judaism from all the other faiths in the world today
That their priesthood was destroyed but they refuse to accept it.

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« Reply #148 on: March 27, 2012, 12:02:14 PM »

You've missed my point, I believe, Punch.  My goal was not to attack non-Orthodox or assert that one must believe 100% the same in order to be worshiping God.  Rather, I was saying it is ludicrous to claim that the Jews worship a God other than ours while Baptists and Methodists and Anglicans worship our God.

Your thesis fails in that I would be willing to bet that I could take 100 Orthodox Christians out of 10 different parishes and 99 of them would be unable to fully explain the Creed in an Orthodox manner.  I would further bet that at least 60 of them could not tell you who Nestorius was or what he believed.  I would further bet that you would find that close to 50 of them would agree with the OO on the natures of Christ.  Being a member of an Orthodox parish does not make you any more Orthodox than standing in a hangar makes you an airplane.

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Judaism isn't Christian, and I would venture to say that they don't even worship the same God that we do. This is not Marcionism, which says that the Old Testament God was different than the New Testament God. What I'm saying, is that our God, is the God of both the Old and New Testaments, the Holy Trinity, God incarnate. But the modern Jews worship a different God, and reject(ed) the true God of the Covenant, they now worship a false idol because they reject Christ, who is God himself.

Therefore, would you rather marry someone worshipping a false God and who rejects God himself and who sides with those who killed him? Or would you marry someone who believes Jesus Christ is God and recognizes and worships the one, true God even if they have some doctrinal differences from us?

I would much sooner marry a Protestant (more sooner a Catholic) than I would someone who was a Muslim or Jewish... One household can only serve one God, not two.

One could just as easily say that any "Christian" who doesn't have perfectly accurate views of Christ and the Trinity (and, by extension, the Church as it is the Body of Christ) worships a false God and rejects the True God.  If you reject Jews for worshiping a false God, you must also reject Calvinists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Catholics, Old Catholics, Methodists, etc.

Not really, because most of those groups worship God as set forth in the Nicene Creed, and accept the Creed. They are pretty much all Trinitarian as well. So you're point kind of fails.

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Christian groups, they worship a different God than we do. They are the same status as Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc...
But heretics and heterodox are not the same as non-Christians.

You clearly don't pay attention to anything the vast majority of Protestants think if you believe they believe the Creed.  They may accept it (though a significant number have no idea of its contents), but then again the Nestorians did as well, but understand it in a quite different way.

So I guess the divinity of Christ means nothing to you then?

Jesus Christ is God... anyone who doesn't recognize that, is not Christian. That includes Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc...

How can you not see that there is a big difference between a heretic and a non-Christian?

Ghandi, Mohammed, Buddha, Confucius, the Dalai Lama and even the most prominent Jewish leaders do not worship the same God as the Christians. They don't worship the Holy Trinity, and they don't recognize Jesus Christ as God. Therefore, they don't worship the same God that we do. End of story, can't you see that?

As I said, there is a big difference between a heretic and a non-Christian. Heretics still worship God, the same God as the Orthodox. They have a somewhat twisted view of him, but they still worship him. However the non-Christian does not worship the same God we do.

We did NOT come "from" Judaism (modern Judaism)... They split off from us! They completely separated themselves from the covenant and from God when they outright rejected God and began to worship the false idols. They refused to worship the God of the Old and New Testaments. By rejecting Jesus Christ, who is God, they rejected belief in God himself!

The Judaism of today is a twisted form of the faith that Christ and his Apostles practiced. We are the true Jews, we are the people of the covenant, not them. God had the Romans destroy their Temple for a reason, yet they still didn't repent and return to worshiping him. They have absolutely no excuse now that God revealed himself to them and they deliberately rejected him and had the Romans crucify him...

From St. John Chrysostom's homilies against the Jews:
"But at any rate the Jews say that they, too, adore God. God forbid that I say that. No Jew adores God! Who say so? The Son of God say so. For he said: "If you were to know my Father, you would also know me. But you neither know me nor do you know my Father". Could I produce a witness more trustworthy than the Son of God? If, then, the Jews fail to know the Father, if they crucified the Son, if they thrust off the help of the Spirit, who should not make bold to declare plainly that the synagogue is a dwelling of demons? God is not worshipped there. Heaven forbid! From now on it remains a place of idolatry. But still some people pay it honor as a holy place."
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6-homily1.asp

So who do you trust? Your own witness, or the witness of a great Saint like St. John Chrysostom?

Well I guess Christ's Body means nothing to you. 
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« Reply #149 on: March 27, 2012, 12:02:14 PM »

Here is a very good article about St. John's Homilies against the Jews;

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.asp

Again, I really don't care what non-Orthodox have to say about him or it. I only accept sources that are Orthodox.
So everything Jaroslav Pelikan wrote before he became Orthodox is to be discarded as untrustworthy, even though we can see it now as part of his process of becoming Orthodox?

No, I regard writings from such men like Jaroslav, NT Wright, CS Lewis and GK Chesterton as being venerable and respectable. But they still are not on the same level as Orthodox writings, and are prone to more error because they are still written outside of the context of the Orthodox Church.

So being within the Orthodox Church makes one correct?
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« Reply #150 on: March 27, 2012, 12:10:15 PM »

Here is a very good article about St. John's Homilies against the Jews;

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.asp

St. John was never bishop of Antioch, so that article's reliability was called into suspicion like two seconds into it for me.

Read for content. The article does not identify him as the Bishop.

"He was bishop of Antioch at the time of these sermons"
They are not considered his best moment.
So says the one who loves Judaism...
Everybody loves Judaism.


You shouldn't , heed the words of not just St John Chrysostom but also St Augustine...
"Hate the sin, love the dinner..."
1. He likely never said that, considering that he fasted a lot.
2. I love dinner, especially when it's fried chicken and mashed potatoes. Yum! Grin
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 12:10:56 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #151 on: March 27, 2012, 12:54:10 PM »

Here is a very good article about St. John's Homilies against the Jews;

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.asp

St. John was never bishop of Antioch, so that article's reliability was called into suspicion like two seconds into it for me.

Read for content. The article does not identify him as the Bishop.

"He was bishop of Antioch at the time of these sermons"
They are not considered his best moment.
So says the one who loves Judaism...
Everybody loves Judaism.

No.
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« Reply #152 on: March 27, 2012, 01:30:22 PM »

I love bagels, does that count?
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« Reply #153 on: March 27, 2012, 01:46:30 PM »

I love bagels, does that count?

The litmus test is whether you like this song or not...
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« Reply #154 on: March 27, 2012, 02:33:51 PM »

Eh, Adam Sandler is not funny. Mel Brooks, on the other hand...
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« Reply #155 on: March 27, 2012, 02:40:25 PM »

Eh, Adam Sandler is not funny. Mel Brooks, on the other hand...

Anyone can say they like Mel Brooks. Even the most deluded antisemite would have to admit that Mel Brooks is the man. But to say that you're ok with Adam Sandler? That's a real test!
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« Reply #156 on: March 27, 2012, 02:52:30 PM »

Eh, Adam Sandler is not funny. Mel Brooks, on the other hand...

Anyone can say they like Mel Brooks. Even the most deluded antisemite would have to admit that Mel Brooks is the man. But to say that you're ok with Adam Sandler? That's a real test!
Happy Gilmore back, yes. Afterwards, a jar of hemorrhoid cream is funnier.

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« Reply #157 on: March 27, 2012, 02:55:01 PM »

I can only go up to a certain point with Sandler, because I stopped following him after a while. However, as a teenager in the 90's I thought his obnoxious schtick was good fun.
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« Reply #158 on: March 27, 2012, 03:11:19 PM »

I was a teenager in the 90s, too. I guess I never really got it, though I do remember enjoying seeing him get beat up by Bob Barker in "Happy Gilmore".
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« Reply #159 on: March 27, 2012, 03:15:31 PM »

Out of curiousity, do we have any notable Orthodox Saints who came from a Jewish background after the apostolic era?

Quite a few, actually. The majority of Christians in Syria were of Hebrew origin until the 8th century, I read somewhere. Anyway, there are several saints throughout history of Jewish origin. One, St. Alexander Jacobson, was a convert who was martyred by the Communists in the 1920s. Another well-known writer, Fr. Alexander Men', was a very prolific church writer.
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« Reply #160 on: March 27, 2012, 04:47:32 PM »

Eh, Adam Sandler is not funny. Mel Brooks, on the other hand...

Anyone can say they like Mel Brooks. Even the most deluded antisemite would have to admit that Mel Brooks is the man. But to say that you're ok with Adam Sandler? That's a real test!
Happy Gilmore back, yes. Afterwards, a jar of hemorrhoid cream is funnier.

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After the '90's, he started to decline.  A lot.  I'm certain he just quit trying, because he already had so much money he didn't care.
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« Reply #161 on: March 27, 2012, 06:07:34 PM »

Here is a very good article about St. John's Homilies against the Jews;

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.asp

St. John was never bishop of Antioch, so that article's reliability was called into suspicion like two seconds into it for me.

Read for content. The article does not identify him as the Bishop.

"He was bishop of Antioch at the time of these sermons"
They are not considered his best moment.
So says the one who loves Judaism...

Wow.... er   You really don't know what youre talking about laugh
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« Reply #162 on: November 30, 2012, 03:40:31 PM »

this is hopeless. However, there is another option. Civil marriage at the city hall.
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« Reply #163 on: November 30, 2012, 04:43:16 PM »

this is hopeless. However, there is another option. Civil marriage at the city hall.

Not if you want to stay in the Church...
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« Reply #164 on: November 30, 2012, 07:06:57 PM »

this is hopeless. However, there is another option. Civil marriage at the city hall.

Not if you want to stay in the Church...


Then what do you suggest for someone who is a muslim and does not want to convert to something they don't believe in, and for a christian who doesn't want to become muslim?
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« Reply #165 on: November 30, 2012, 08:29:28 PM »

this is hopeless. However, there is another option. Civil marriage at the city hall.

Not if you want to stay in the Church...


Then what do you suggest for someone who is a muslim and does not want to convert to something they don't believe in, and for a christian who doesn't want to become muslim?

Sounds harsh but it's the best advice: break up sooner rather than later.
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« Reply #166 on: November 30, 2012, 08:47:51 PM »

this is hopeless. However, there is another option. Civil marriage at the city hall.

Not if you want to stay in the Church...


Then what do you suggest for someone who is a muslim and does not want to convert to something they don't believe in, and for a christian who doesn't want to become muslim?

Sounds harsh but it's the best advice: break up sooner rather than later.

Now. Why would I break up with someone I love?
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« Reply #167 on: November 30, 2012, 09:36:56 PM »

this is hopeless. However, there is another option. Civil marriage at the city hall.

Not if you want to stay in the Church...


Then what do you suggest for someone who is a muslim and does not want to convert to something they don't believe in, and for a christian who doesn't want to become muslim?

Sounds harsh but it's the best advice: break up sooner rather than later.

Now. Why would I break up with someone I love?

Were you together before becoming Orthodox?  If married or 'civilly bound' before, the Apostle Paul says what to do: stay with him/her unless the other party wants to leave, then send them on their way.

If you were Orthodox when you started dating the Moslem then you should have known better.  Note that I am not stating this flippantly but as having done this...and we broke up later rather than sooner.
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« Reply #168 on: November 30, 2012, 09:47:46 PM »

this is hopeless. However, there is another option. Civil marriage at the city hall.

Not if you want to stay in the Church...


Then what do you suggest for someone who is a muslim and does not want to convert to something they don't believe in, and for a christian who doesn't want to become muslim?

Sounds harsh but it's the best advice: break up sooner rather than later.

Now. Why would I break up with someone I love?

Were you together before becoming Orthodox?  If married or 'civilly bound' before, the Apostle Paul says what to do: stay with him/her unless the other party wants to leave, then send them on their way.

If you were Orthodox when you started dating the Moslem then you should have known better.  Note that I am not stating this flippantly but as having done this...and we broke up later rather than sooner.




I am not in a relationship like that. In fact I am not in a relationship at all. I prefer to keep my virginity. But I wouldn't let religion or anything ruin my relationship. You see. No proof about the existence of God.
However the existence of a person we love, can easily be proven.
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« Reply #169 on: November 30, 2012, 09:57:14 PM »

tweety, can you and every other Greek who has zero grasp of Orthodoxy please stop calling yourselves Orthodox Christians?
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« Reply #170 on: November 30, 2012, 10:15:59 PM »

tweety, can you and every other Greek who has zero grasp of Orthodoxy please stop calling yourselves Orthodox Christians?

Give the man a cigar!!  laugh laugh
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« Reply #171 on: November 30, 2012, 10:24:16 PM »

tweety, can you and every other Greek who has zero grasp of Orthodoxy please stop calling yourselves Orthodox Christians?

Give the man a cigar!!  laugh laugh

You would offer him the devil's incense? I'll be sending you a Stalin iconogram. Smiley
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« Reply #172 on: November 30, 2012, 11:17:03 PM »

tweety, can you and every other Greek who has zero grasp of Orthodoxy please stop calling yourselves Orthodox Christians?

Give the man a cigar!!  laugh laugh

You would offer him the devil's incense? I'll be sending you a Stalin iconogram. Smiley

Touche! I dips me lid t' yer, Sir.  laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #173 on: December 01, 2012, 01:19:59 AM »

Akimori's posts  make so much sense that I'm starting doubt that he's not a real Greek after all.
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« Reply #174 on: December 01, 2012, 03:11:08 AM »

this is hopeless. However, there is another option. Civil marriage at the city hall.

Not if you want to stay in the Church...


Then what do you suggest for someone who is a muslim and does not want to convert to something they don't believe in, and for a christian who doesn't want to become muslim?

Sounds harsh but it's the best advice: break up sooner rather than later.

Now. Why would I break up with someone I love?
The inevitable result.
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« Reply #175 on: December 01, 2012, 06:05:56 PM »

I am going through exactly this problem at the moment. All I can say is, if you're also going through this difficulty of falling in love with someone outside the Church, first of all, don't hide this problem from your spiritual father. He can't help you if he doesn't know what's going on in your life. Secondly, while the rules are very strict (no marriage outside the Church), it's dangerous for those who are not spiritual fathers to throw the book at people in this situation and say "it's either the True Church or your true love". That is just as likely to drive the person away from the faith entirely as it is to persuade him to dump his sweetheart. It's better to marry inside the Church than outside it, but surely it's better to keep the faith and struggle to live an Orthodox life to the best of one's ability, even if one is barred from Communion, than to compound the uncanonical marriage by abandoning Orthodoxy entirely.

EDIT: Fr David Moser over at monachos had a very good post on this topic. Would I be allowed to reprint it here?
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« Reply #176 on: December 02, 2012, 08:19:07 AM »

Akimori's posts  make so much sense that I'm starting doubt that he's not a real Greek after all.

Sadly, I share the blood which they continue to heap shame upon.
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« Reply #177 on: December 02, 2012, 06:07:14 PM »

I have to say this is one of the reasons we should really emphasize to our kids that they have to marry Orthodox. Don't let them get in the habit of even getting crushes on non-Orthodox. Yes there are countless stories of people who converted their spouse and now they're a happily devout Orthodox family. There are also many of the opposite. I'm not saying when they're older you should still be restricting who they date and who they can marry, but if you get them in the habit of thinking "my spouse must be Orthodox" then when they start searching they'll stop a crush who they know won't convert from growing into something more, and be upfront about this obligation to potential spouse converts.

It protects their hearts from a lot of pain someday, pain that we know we can spare them.
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« Reply #178 on: December 02, 2012, 07:32:58 PM »

Here is a very good article about St. John's Homilies against the Jews;

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.asp

Again, I really don't care what non-Orthodox have to say about him or it. I only accept sources that are Orthodox.
So everything Jaroslav Pelikan wrote before he became Orthodox is to be discarded as untrustworthy, even though we can see it now as part of his process of becoming Orthodox?

No, I regard writings from such men like Jaroslav, NT Wright, CS Lewis and GK Chesterton as being venerable and respectable. But they still are not on the same level as Orthodox writings, and are prone to more error because they are still written outside of the context of the Orthodox Church.

So being within the Orthodox Church makes one correct?



I am wondering about that too.
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« Reply #179 on: December 02, 2012, 07:35:45 PM »

I am going through exactly this problem at the moment. All I can say is, if you're also going through this difficulty of falling in love with someone outside the Church, first of all, don't hide this problem from your spiritual father. He can't help you if he doesn't know what's going on in your life. Secondly, while the rules are very strict (no marriage outside the Church), it's dangerous for those who are not spiritual fathers to throw the book at people in this situation and say "it's either the True Church or your true love". That is just as likely to drive the person away from the faith entirely as it is to persuade him to dump his sweetheart. It's better to marry inside the Church than outside it, but surely it's better to keep the faith and struggle to live an Orthodox life to the best of one's ability, even if one is barred from Communion, than to compound the uncanonical marriage by abandoning Orthodoxy entirely.

EDIT: Fr David Moser over at monachos had a very good post on this topic. Would I be allowed to reprint it here?


If I have to choose between A church and my true love. I choose my true love.
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