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Author Topic: "All Churches in the Arabian Peninsula Must Be Destroyed" -Saudi Grand Mufti  (Read 3562 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 19, 2012, 07:42:44 PM »

Quote from: RT News
"The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia has said that all churches in the Arabian Peninsula must be destroyed. The statement prompted anger and dismay from Christians throughout the Middle East. Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah made the controversial statement in a response to a question from a Kuwaiti NGO delegation.

A Kuwaiti parliamentarian had called for a ban on the construction of new churches in February, but so far the initiative has not been passed into law. The NGO, called the Society of the Revival of Islamic Heritage, asked the Sheikh to clarify what Islamic law says on the matter.

The Grand Mufti, who is the highest official of religious law in Saudi Arabia, as well as the head of the Supreme Council of Islamic Scholars, cited the Prophet Mohammed, who said the Arabian Peninsula is to exist under only one religion."

http://rt.com/news/peninsula-saudi-grand-mufti-701/
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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2012, 10:06:27 PM »

how lovely...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2012, 10:40:45 PM »


He doesn't look lovely....he looks mean.




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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2012, 10:41:01 PM »

I heard about this from my father today, and had forgot about it until just now. Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2012, 10:48:34 PM »

"The gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2012, 02:38:34 AM »

LOL. Islamic Protestantism at it's best.
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2012, 11:08:35 AM »

LOL. Islamic Protestantism at it's best.

as in Cromwell's Puritans?
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2012, 11:17:47 AM »

Now now, this is the religion of peace. Roll Eyes

PP
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2012, 02:08:55 PM »

Some interesting comments from the Washington Times:

"If the pope called for the destruction of all the mosques in Europe, the uproar would be cataclysmic. Pundits would lambaste the church, the White House would rush out a statement of deep concern, and rioters in the Middle East would kill each other in their grief. But when the most influential leader in the Muslim world issues a fatwa to destroy Christian churches, the silence is deafening...

Churches have always been banned in Saudi Arabia, and until recently Jews were not even allowed in the country. Those wishing to worship in the manner of their choosing must do so hidden away in private, and even then the morality police have been known to show up unexpectedly and halt proceedings. This is not a small-time radical imam trying to stir up his followers with fiery hate speech. This was a considered, deliberate and specific ruling from one of the most important leaders in the Muslim world. It does not just create a religious obligation for those over whom the mufti has direct authority; it is also a signal to others in the Muslim world that destroying churches is not only permitted but mandatory."

Complete (brief) article here.

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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2012, 02:18:33 PM »

LOL. Islamic Protestantism at it's best.

as in Cromwell's Puritans?

As in all who think to reform their religion into it's original state by neglecting tradition.
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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2012, 02:29:37 PM »

What would yia-yia do?
-I just noticed that under your avatar...



(and now back to your regularly scheduled thread)
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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2012, 03:45:48 PM »

No surprises there.  Just wait till it happens in America.  Islam is the fasted growing religion and the White House and the media bend over backwards to placate them.  This is no 'Chicken Little' running from an imaginary bogeyman.  I was a Muslim for ten years.  I heard this type of rhetoric at every Friday prayer meeting.  And that was in America just twelve years ago.  I just hope those of you with jobs have opened up a Dhimmi savings account so you can pay your taxes.   
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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2012, 08:35:32 PM »

St.  Isaac the Syrian, pray for us.
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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2012, 09:01:06 PM »

I'm sure this guy's statement was just taken out of context.
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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2012, 10:20:13 PM »

This is the teaching of Islam!

Finally.
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« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2012, 11:09:58 PM »

No surprises there.  Just wait till it happens in America.  Islam is the fasted growing religion and the White House and the media bend over backwards to placate them.  This is no 'Chicken Little' running from an imaginary bogeyman.  I was a Muslim for ten years.  I heard this type of rhetoric at every Friday prayer meeting.  And that was in America just twelve years ago.  I just hope those of you with jobs have opened up a Dhimmi savings account so you can pay your taxes.   

wow...scary! Shocked
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2012, 01:21:47 AM »

This is the teaching of Islam!

Finally.

This is A teaching of Islam, not THE teaching of Islam. I'm fairly sure that there are loads of Muslim scholars who would allow churches in Arabian Peninsula and could argue their opinions by the Koran, Hadiths and tradition.
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« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2012, 01:25:43 AM »

This is the teaching of Islam!

Finally.

Well, it is the teaching of Islam that no churches should exist in the Arabian peninsula, not that no churches should exist anywhere, as some seem to imply.
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« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2012, 01:36:24 AM »

To clarify, there was a troll who used to write "This is not the teaching of Islam!" in response to a bunch of posts.

My post was a play on that.

Well, it is the teaching of Islam that no churches should exist in the Arabian peninsula, not that no churches should exist anywhere, as some seem to imply.
Right.

I'm fairly sure that there are loads of Muslim scholars who would allow churches in Arabian Peninsula and could argue their opinions by the Koran, Hadiths and tradition.

Right, but there are loads of Christian scholars who would allow things contrary to Christianity and what was intended.  The justification for this teaching comes from the Koran, and more specifically Hadiths and tradition.
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« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2012, 04:16:18 AM »

Right, but there are loads of Christian scholars who would allow things contrary to Christianity and what was intended.

That's like comparing apples to oranges. There's probably Islamic versions of John Spong but I wasn't refering to that kind of people but rather to traditional Islam. Koran, Hadiths and tradition can be interpreted in many ways and IIRC there aren't exact agreement among Muslims about which Hadiths are authentic and which aren't.
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« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2012, 04:29:22 AM »

From Saudi Arabia, it's not surprising.

Violences are to come, as this kind of speech always did.

I think it's time for the Muslims to stop advocating peace, or talks between religions ; this is lie ; we all know the fate of the non muslim.


May the Lord have mercy on us   Sad
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« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2012, 04:39:31 AM »

the teaching of Islam

There is no the teaching of Islam.  There is no central authority, no magestrum to give an official stamp on doctrine within Islam.  A lot of people here are imposing their own religious bias (i.e that in Orthodoxy or Catholicism there is an official structure) on Islam. 
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« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2012, 06:22:53 AM »

There is no the teaching of Islam.  There is no central authority, no magestrum to give an official stamp on doctrine within Islam.  A lot of people here are imposing their own religious bias (i.e that in Orthodoxy or Catholicism there is an official structure) on Islam. 

Not of Islam as a whole, much like there is no "teaching of Christianity" in the sense that Catholics, Orthodox, and the myriad of Protestant groups differ on many things.

However, the primary strands of Sunni Islam do have an official and accepted corpus of hadith and certain interpretative text which do make it possible to speak of, if not 'the teaching of Islam', at least 'the teaching of Sunni Islam'. Of course, this does not mean universal agreement on every issue, variant traditions and theologoumena exist. Nonetheless, on the vast majority of issues that do not pertain to uniquely modern problems, I think it is possible to speak of the teaching of Islam.
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2012, 02:48:23 PM »

Now now, this is the religion of peace. Roll Eyes

PP

Indeed, it is. When the whole world is Islamic, under one form of Islam, there will be peace.
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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2012, 04:27:53 PM »

Now now, this is the religion of peace. Roll Eyes

PP

Indeed, it is. When the whole world is Islamic, under one form of Islam, there will be peace.

yes, literally Islam or death. Not in the martyric sense though... Sad
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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2012, 04:30:32 PM »

the teaching of Islam

There is no the teaching of Islam.  There is no central authority, no magestrum to give an official stamp on doctrine within Islam.  A lot of people here are imposing their own religious bias (i.e that in Orthodoxy or Catholicism there is an official structure) on Islam. 

does islam even have doctrine, other than there is one God allah and his prophet muhammad?
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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2012, 10:03:37 PM »

the teaching of Islam

There is no the teaching of Islam.  There is no central authority, no magestrum to give an official stamp on doctrine within Islam.  A lot of people here are imposing their own religious bias (i.e that in Orthodoxy or Catholicism there is an official structure) on Islam. 

does islam even have doctrine, other than there is one God allah and his prophet muhammad?

I think Orthodox11's explanation is quite accurate.
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« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2012, 03:52:44 AM »

the teaching of Islam

There is no the teaching of Islam.  There is no central authority, no magestrum to give an official stamp on doctrine within Islam.  A lot of people here are imposing their own religious bias (i.e that in Orthodoxy or Catholicism there is an official structure) on Islam. 
oh, there is an official structure, like we have the Orthodox episcopacy and the Vatican has its supreme pontiff.  That most schools/sects use lawyers for their clerics doesn't change that.

And case in point, this is the official statement of the central authority which has most of the Arabian Peninsula in its control, which it is extending outside of Saudi Arabia.
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« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2012, 03:52:44 AM »

I'm sure this guy's statement was just taken out of context.
I'm afraid not.
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« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2012, 01:43:06 PM »

And case in point, this is the official statement of the central authority which has most of the Arabian Peninsula in its control, which it is extending outside of Saudi Arabia.

State-sponsored central authority which doesn't any papal-like theological pregoratives. I wonder how seriously ordinary Muslims take these state-sponsored scholars of the Middle East?
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« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2012, 04:53:45 PM »

Quote
There is no the teaching of Islam.  There is no central authority, no magestrum to give an official stamp on doctrine within Islam.  A lot of people here are imposing their own religious bias (i.e that in Orthodoxy or Catholicism there is an official structure) on Islam.  
There is at the very least a relative framework of official structure within Islam insofar as Muslims acknowledge the authority of (1) Koran, (2) important early Muslim commentators, (3) the Hadith, and (4) Sharia law, and well beyond that as Isa has pointed out, diversity notwithstanding.

Here someone may well say "all Muslims are not radicalized." That is surely true. But consider, if there are 1.57 billion Muslims worldwide, and -more optimistic than is surely reasonable- suppose 1% radicalized: we have 15.7 million radical Islamists. If closer to 10%, we have 157 million radical Islamists. It is not reasonable not to take this problem seriously. One should always keep what kind of critical mass has resulted in major problems historically and in our own century in mind.

The practical issue we face deals not with "True Islam" (True with a capital "T" -perhaps such a thing does not even exist, so what?) but Islam as we are with some statistically meaningful probability likely to find it in the world. So whether "Islam teaches" that Muslims should behead the Christians in my village is, I think, a distinction without much of a difference if Muslims who think so are beheading Christians in my village.

Quote from: Ibn Warraq
We might distinguish three Islams: Islam 1, Islam 2, and Islam 3. Islam 1 is what the Prophet taught, that is, his teachings as contained in the Koran. Islam 2 is the religion as expounded, interpreted, and developed by the theologians through the traditions (Hadith); it includes the sharia and Islamic law. Islam 3 is what Muslims actually did do and achieved, that is to say, Islamic civilization. If any general thesis emerges in this book it is that Islam 3, Islamic civilization, often reached magnificent heights despite Islam 1 and Islam 2, and not because of them...

...The treatment of women, non-Muslims, unbelievers, heretics, and slaves (male and female) was appalling both in theory and practice. In other words, Islam 1, Islam 2, and Islam 3 all stand condemned. The horrendous behavior toward women, non-Muslims, heretics, and slaves manifested in Islamic civilization was a direct consequence of the principles laid down in the Koran and developed by the Islamic jurists. Islamic law is a totalitarian theoretical construct, intended to control every aspect of an individual's life from birth to death. Happily, the law has not always been applied to the letter—Islamic civilization would scarcely have emerged otherwise.  -Ibn Warraq, Why I Am Not a Musim (Promethius Books); download the whole book for free by Googling ibn-warraq-why-i-am-not-muslim.pdf

State-sponsored central authority which doesn't any papal-like theological pregoratives. I wonder how seriously ordinary Muslims take these state-sponsored scholars of the Middle East?
How seriously? As the Washington Times article cited above suggests, seriously enough to be a troubling and problematic:

"This is not a small-time radical imam trying to stir up his followers with fiery hate speech. This was a considered, deliberate and specific ruling from one of the most important leaders in the Muslim world. It does not just create a religious obligation for those over whom the mufti has direct authority; it is also a signal to others in the Muslim world that destroying churches is not only permitted but mandatory" (Washington Times, op cit).

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« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2012, 05:06:31 PM »

Have any prominent Muslims (perhaps other Imam's or clerics) come out publicly to denounce the words of this man??
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« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2012, 05:16:10 PM »

This is the teaching of Islam!

Finally.

This is A teaching of Islam, not THE teaching of Islam. I'm fairly sure that there are loads of Muslim scholars who would allow churches in Arabian Peninsula and could argue their opinions by the Koran, Hadiths and tradition.

Until these Muslim scholars are killed by the ignorant barbarians.
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« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2012, 07:40:39 PM »

I think it really hinges on how the prophet Mehmet (PBUH)  defined the geographical boundaries of the Arabian penninsula. Wink
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« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2012, 08:57:04 PM »

the teaching of Islam

There is no the teaching of Islam.  There is no central authority, no magestrum to give an official stamp on doctrine within Islam.  A lot of people here are imposing their own religious bias (i.e that in Orthodoxy or Catholicism there is an official structure) on Islam.

Speaking of imposing one's own bias.  You may not be giving some us enough credit.  You are right, there is no central authority (other than the Qur'an, which of course can be interpreted differently), no magistereum, etc, but that does not mean that there are no teachings.  Perhaps you believe that without those elements a faith may not have doctine?  Mujtahids may make doctrinal pronouncements, which are supposed to be followed.  The Saudi Grand Mufti is most certainly a mujtahid.

Again, my "this is the teaching of Islam" comment was a joke reference.  That said, there are teachings in Islam, and it has been traditionally understood that there are to be no other religions in Arabia. 

Yes, there are plenty of Muslims, some authorities included, who may argue that this should no longer be enforced, or that it was not meant to be as stringently applied, but this pronouncement is not new and did not come from nowhere.  It's been an established teaching within Islam.
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« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2012, 02:08:22 AM »

This is the teaching of Islam!

Finally.

This is A teaching of Islam, not THE teaching of Islam. I'm fairly sure that there are loads of Muslim scholars who would allow churches in Arabian Peninsula and could argue their opinions by the Koran, Hadiths and tradition.

Until these Muslim scholars are killed by the ignorant barbarians.

Not really. There's certain "Live and let live" attitude among traditional Islam pertaining to some issues. Different schools of thought (Madh'hab) have lived side by side for centuries.

That said, there are teachings in Islam, and it has been traditionally understood that there are to be no other religions in Arabia. 

Source? I'm not saying this isn't true though. Just haven't heard about it.
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« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2012, 03:14:51 AM »

Not really. There's certain "Live and let live" attitude among traditional Islam pertaining to some issues. Different schools of thought (Madh'hab) have lived side by side for centuries.

Too bad they've never extended that "live and let live" attitude to non-Muslims in the lands they took over.

That said, there are teachings in Islam, and it has been traditionally understood that there are to be no other religions in Arabia.  

Quote
Source? I'm not saying this isn't true though. Just haven't heard about it.

It is recorded in the concerning Muhammad's expelling the Jews of Arabia, apparently found in Malik's Muwatta (I haven't found it there because the only electronic resource I can find of this is organized thematically, and I have no idea where it would go, but even Islamic sites list that saying as being from that book).
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« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2012, 05:21:57 AM »

It is recorded in the concerning Muhammad's expelling the Jews of Arabia, apparently found in Malik's Muwatta (I haven't found it there because the only electronic resource I can find of this is organized thematically, and I have no idea where it would go, but even Islamic sites list that saying as being from that book).

Thanks. I don't know how trustworthy various internet sites are but at least it seems widely held belief. Internesting. I've always thought that non-Muslims weren't allowed only in Mecca itself.
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« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2012, 08:00:33 AM »

It is recorded in the concerning Muhammad's expelling the Jews of Arabia, apparently found in Malik's Muwatta (I haven't found it there because the only electronic resource I can find of this is organized thematically, and I have no idea where it would go, but even Islamic sites list that saying as being from that book).

Thanks. I don't know how trustworthy various internet sites are but at least it seems widely held belief. Internesting. I've always thought that non-Muslims weren't allowed only in Mecca itself.

Well, I don't know that the idea that there should be no religion other than Islam within Arabia has necessarily been understood to mean that NO non-Muslims may step foot in Arabia, just that there should be no houses of worship and perhaps that they should not live there.  However, with Mecca, it is the idea that no non-Muslims should step foot there.
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« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2012, 11:54:30 AM »

Thanks. I don't know how trustworthy various internet sites are but at least it seems widely held belief. Internesting. I've always thought that non-Muslims weren't allowed only in Mecca itself.

Well, I don't know that the idea that there should be no religion other than Islam within Arabia has necessarily been understood to mean that NO non-Muslims may step foot in Arabia, just that there should be no houses of worship and perhaps that they should not live there.  However, with Mecca, it is the idea that no non-Muslims should step foot there.

My understanding as well. No ban on other religions in Arabia itself, but on hurches, synagogues, etc.  I'm away from my collection of Hadith, but I'll try to track it down at some point.
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« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2012, 09:51:06 PM »

Mohammed specifically gave a written promise to Sinai that it was NOT included in his definition of the Arabian peninsula and that they had the right to exist as a Christian community.  This certainly indicates that boundaries were defined by the "prophet." 

Let me ask you something.  If you told a Lutheran "I dare you to kill me because I don't like Lutheranism..." or let's go outside of Christianity, you say to a Buddhist or a rabbinic Jew "I dare you to kill me because I don't like..."  You probably would not fear for your life like you would if you said to a Muslim the same thing.   If you said to a community of Muslims "I dare you to kill me because you spread falsehood," you would wind up dead.  Not so for the Christian, the Buddhist, the Jewish or any other communities.  The one exception may be some Hindus as we know already from recent history (not just in India, but Orthodox priests in Russia who wound up dead at the hands of Hindus--I think we have some old posts here).   We can sugar-coat this all we want.  There are some religions that are simply more dangerous than others, and Islam, Atheism, and at a remote third Hinduism among the major followings are in the category of the more worrisome. 

But I already know what some clowns are going to say:  "we shouldn't be daring people to kill us."  Not kidding Sherlock.  That doesn't negate that some religious followings will take up the dare and others will not.  No one should have to fear for their life for free speech.  No one. 
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« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2012, 11:15:47 PM »

Tell him we will comply only when all Mosque's are destroyed in Europe!  Tired of phony, one sidedness when it comes to deling with Islam and its extremist.  We Christians have been more then tolerant to them, especially the Saudi's, yet no tolerance is given in return (The only thing that the Christian west does get is plenty of terrorism from Muslim adherent's, like what recently occurred in France).
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« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2012, 11:22:14 PM »

Mohammed specifically gave a written promise to Sinai that it was NOT included in his definition of the Arabian peninsula and that they had the right to exist as a Christian community.

If only this would apply to the whole of Egypt...maybe then the followers of Muhammad would think twice before burning down churches and destroying monasteries, as they now do with impunity.

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« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2012, 07:17:44 AM »

Tell him we will comply only when all Mosque's are destroyed in Europe!  Tired of phony, one sidedness when it comes to deling with Islam and its extremist.  We Christians have been more then tolerant to them, especially the Saudi's, yet no tolerance is given in return.

So if Moslems are barbarians we should be too?
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« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2012, 09:15:14 AM »

A group of Roman Catholic and Orthodox bishops in Europe have spoken out, in separate statements, against a 'fatwa' by a leading Saudi Arabian cleric. The mufti's statement called for the destruction of all churches on the Arabian peninsula.

From the article:
Quote
In separate statements on Friday, the Roman Catholic bishops in Germany and Austria slammed the ruling by Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdulaziz Al al-Shaikh as an unacceptable denial of human rights to millions of foreign workers in the Gulf region.

Archbishop Mark of Yegoryevsk, head of the Russian Orthodox department for churches abroad, called the fatwa "alarming" in a statement on Tuesday. Such blunt criticism from mainstream Christian leaders of their Muslim counterparts is very rare.
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