Visiting a Estern Catholic church

[katherineofdixie]

"Would you prefer a screen separating the nave from the altar which bears only an icon of Christ?"
Ultimately by biggest complaint about the icons in question is when they are given such a prominent position, that they can compete with the Lord for attention. Such is the case of the saint icon outside one of the churches I go to.

This is probably not a proper spirit to display during Lent, so I ask your pardon in advance, but in addition to being nonsense, this misunderstanding of icons and their place in our faith is dangerous to your spiritual health. The inside of St. John the Wonderworker is literally crammed with icons (if I can say it that way) - none of which compete with the Lord for attention.

[sprtslvr1973]

"Would you prefer a screen separating the nave from the altar which bears only an icon of Christ?"
Ultimately by biggest complaint about the icons in question is when they are given such a prominent position, that they can compete with the Lord for attention. Such is the case of the saint icon outside one of the churches I go to.

This is probably not a proper spirit to display during Lent, so I ask your pardon in advance, but in addition to being nonsense, this misunderstanding of icons and their place in our faith is dangerous to your spiritual health. The inside of St. John the Wonderworker is literally crammed with icons (if I can say it that way) - none of which compete with the Lord for attention.

I beg to differ. The one right outside our church can be replaced by an icon of the Lord, his birth, preaching, crucifixion, or Resurrection. That would be much more Christo-centric and Christian. Yes this is a reason I am absent from that parish.

Ian

[Michał Kalina]

The one right outside our church can be replaced by an icon of the Lord, his birth, preaching, crucifixion, or Resurrection. That would be much more Christo-centric and Christian.

Says who? John Calvin?

[sprtslvr1973]

The one right outside our church can be replaced by an icon of the Lord, his birth, preaching, crucifixion, or Resurrection. That would be much more Christo-centric and Christian.

Says who? John Calvin?

You bring up Calvin a fair bit. To answer your question, maybe he would agree. Good for him if he did.

[Michał Kalina]

That would make him a target of the VII Council anathemas.

[sprtslvr1973]

Answer: No, because every icon of the Theotokos that I have seen is in fact has her literally pointing or directing us to the Lord.

The one of her Nativity too? Or the Eleusa type? Or the Oranta type?

but would that be bad?

It would be against the VII Ecumenical Council.

Answer: Every Festal Icon I have seen includes the Lord at the center. This includes icons of Pentecost; while His person is not seen, His spirit is. The same can be said icons based on parables (Prodigal Son)

What about the icon of the Nativity of the Theotokos, Annunciation, Entrance of the Theotokos to the Temple, Exaltation of the Cross...?

If John the Wonder-worker was truly as devout as some will tell you, then he himself would hate to see a picture of himself alone for reverence or adoration.

I doubt he was a Calvinist.

In this case I was referring to Christian humility,  not iconoclasm.

[sprtslvr1973]

As I understand it, Iconoclasts are against depictions of Christ. My whole complaint is that there are not enough of them

[Michał Kalina]

In this case I was referring to Christian humility,  not iconoclasm.

Icons cannot be made of those, who are alive.

As I understand it, Iconoclasts are against depictions of Christ.

We decree with full precision and care that, like the figure of the honoured and life-giving cross, the revered and holy images, whether painted or made of mosaic or of other suitable material, are to be exposed in the holy churches of God, on sacred instruments and vestments, on walls and panels, in houses and by public ways, these are the images of our Lord, God and saviour, Jesus Christ, and of our Lady without blemish, the holy God-bearer, and of the revered angels and of any of the saintly holy men.

[katherineofdixie]

"Would you prefer a screen separating the nave from the altar which bears only an icon of Christ?"
Ultimately by biggest complaint about the icons in question is when they are given such a prominent position, that they can compete with the Lord for attention. Such is the case of the saint icon outside one of the churches I go to.

This is probably not a proper spirit to display during Lent, so I ask your pardon in advance, but in addition to being nonsense, this misunderstanding of icons and their place in our faith is dangerous to your spiritual health. The inside of St. John the Wonderworker is literally crammed with icons (if I can say it that way) - none of which compete with the Lord for attention.

I beg to differ. The one right outside our church can be replaced by an icon of the Lord, his birth, preaching, crucifixion, or Resurrection. That would be much more Christo-centric and Christian. Yes this is a reason I am absent from that parish.

Ian

Again, with humility, persisting in this arrogance and misunderstanding, is dangerous for your soul. May God help you.

[Wyatt]

As I understand it, Iconoclasts are against depictions of Christ. My whole complaint is that there are not enough of them

Saints in no way take away from Christ. They point towards Him. After all, the only reason they are even Saints is because of Him.

[Peter J]

Prepare to make loud noises during Filioque.

 

I think Alpo was making a little joke. However, this reminds me of a post on byzcath: the poster related how, at a certain EC parish, a small number of LCs (who apparently didn't like the omission of the filioque) regularly attended and would loudly add "and the Son" after everyone had said "who proceeds from the Father". (I think he said that those LCs are traditionalist -- but needless to say, not all of us traditionalists are like that.)

[Alpo]

Prepare to make loud noises during Filioque.

 

I think Alpo was making a little joke.

Touché. Although I wouldn't be so suprised if there was some people who actually do that.

[stanley123]

Went there today; kind of a flop. First, I got times confused. I thought it started at 9:30, as it turns out it started at 9:00. During coffee hour I tried to 'talk catechism' with a couple of guys, but they did not seem to know what their church believed.

Some people are into discussing theology while others are not. I think it is the same in the Orthodox Churches, no?

[Peter J]

Went there today; kind of a flop. First, I got times confused. I thought it started at 9:30, as it turns out it started at 9:00. During coffee hour I tried to 'talk catechism' with a couple of guys, but they did not seem to know what their church believed.

Some people are into discussing theology while others are not. I think it is the same in the Orthodox Churches, no?

I should certainly think so. I know it's just as true in LC parishes as in EC parishes.

[sprtslvr1973]

Went there today; kind of a flop. First, I got times confused. I thought it started at 9:30, as it turns out it started at 9:00. During coffee hour I tried to 'talk catechism' with a couple of guys, but they did not seem to know what their church believed.

Some people are into discussing theology while others are not. I think it is the same in the Orthodox Churches, no?

And in many Protestant/Evangelical churches I have been to. But still...

[J Michael]

Prepare to make loud noises during Filioque.

 

I think Alpo was making a little joke. However, this reminds me of a post on byzcath: the poster related how, at a certain EC parish, a small number of LCs (who apparently didn't like the omission of the filioque) regularly attended and would loudly add "and the Son" after everyone had said "who proceeds from the Father". (I think he said that those LCs are traditionalist -- but needless to say, not all of us traditionalists are like that.)

Ohh...Sometimes on this board when people make "jokes" without the benefit of an accompanying emoticon the "joke" they are making could get wildly misinterpreted--especially by someone as old and colossally ignorant as I am  .

[J Michael]

Prepare to make loud noises during Filioque.

 

I think Alpo was making a little joke.

Touché. Although I wouldn't be so suprised if there was some people who actually do that.

I would not only be surprised, I would be appalled and stunned if someone did that, or if someone did as PeterJ related about the Latin Catholics in the Byzantine Catholic Church!  Totally disrespectful and reprehensible, imho!  And I have to admit, I'm surprised that you *wouldn't* be surprised  .  But, that's just me....

[Peter J]

Well, I won't try to say whether people should be surprised or not, but I've found the post I mentioned earlier. The thread started with this question:

My question is this....I have noticed that in many of the pew books and prayer books, the filioque is inserted in parenthesis. Could a Traditional minded Western Catholic join the East and be allowed to follow his conscience by reciting the filioque during the Creed?

and one of the replies said:

There are many problems with the Tridentines at my home parish. They have caused much upheavel and distress on the liturgical and social life of the parish.

We welcome all guests to worship with us at Liturgy, however, a malicious intent to cause spiritual havoc by attempting to change parts of our Liturgy, and even liturgical items inside of the church, is most unwelcomed.

Back home, when ever the Creed is chanted in English, the Tridentines in unison shoutout, "and the Son!" Not only is that disrespectful to others in the church praying, but to God because at Liturgy we worship Him; we do not go to force our grievances upon others.

Just my take on the issue. Welcome them to partake in our Liturgy as we do, not to come just as a refugee.

-uc

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/50342/1

[Papist]

Well, I won't try to say whether people should be surprised or not, but I've found the post I mentioned earlier. The thread started with this question:

My question is this....I have noticed that in many of the pew books and prayer books, the filioque is inserted in parenthesis. Could a Traditional minded Western Catholic join the East and be allowed to follow his conscience by reciting the filioque during the Creed?

and one of the replies said:

There are many problems with the Tridentines at my home parish. They have caused much upheavel and distress on the liturgical and social life of the parish.

We welcome all guests to worship with us at Liturgy, however, a malicious intent to cause spiritual havoc by attempting to change parts of our Liturgy, and even liturgical items inside of the church, is most unwelcomed.

Back home, when ever the Creed is chanted in English, the Tridentines in unison shoutout, "and the Son!" Not only is that disrespectful to others in the church praying, but to God because at Liturgy we worship Him; we do not go to force our grievances upon others.

Just my take on the issue. Welcome them to partake in our Liturgy as we do, not to come just as a refugee.

-uc

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/50342/1

This is absolutely terrible. I would hope that the Byzatine priests could tell these "traditionalists" (I use quotes because reall traditionalists would respect the Apostolic traditions of the Byzantine Churches) that they need to cut it our, or they can simply leave. Can't the priest appeal to the Bishop to deal with these disrespectful latins?

[Adela]

Yes, this is incredibly rude. They are guests and they are deliberately being disruptive?  Too bad there aren't any old-time Traditional Nuns there to smack their hands with rulers everytime they disrupt the Liturgy.....

[Papist]

I would have a difficult time not telling these "tratitionalists" to take a hike. 

[Peter J]

Well, I won't try to say whether people should be surprised or not, but I've found the post I mentioned earlier. The thread started with this question:

My question is this....I have noticed that in many of the pew books and prayer books, the filioque is inserted in parenthesis. Could a Traditional minded Western Catholic join the East and be allowed to follow his conscience by reciting the filioque during the Creed?

and one of the replies said:

There are many problems with the Tridentines at my home parish. They have caused much upheavel and distress on the liturgical and social life of the parish.

We welcome all guests to worship with us at Liturgy, however, a malicious intent to cause spiritual havoc by attempting to change parts of our Liturgy, and even liturgical items inside of the church, is most unwelcomed.

Back home, when ever the Creed is chanted in English, the Tridentines in unison shoutout, "and the Son!" Not only is that disrespectful to others in the church praying, but to God because at Liturgy we worship Him; we do not go to force our grievances upon others.

Just my take on the issue. Welcome them to partake in our Liturgy as we do, not to come just as a refugee.

-uc

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/50342/1

This is absolutely terrible. I would hope that the Byzatine priests could tell these "traditionalists" (I use quotes because reall traditionalists would respect the Apostolic traditions of the Byzantine Churches)

Yeah, some people have weird ideas about what "traditionalists" means. I recall a discussion on a traditional Catholic forum about order of sacraments, in which a small (fortunately) number of posters absolutely insisted that baptism-eucharist-confirmation was the "traditional" order. (Of course, now I'm getting ever further off-topic.)

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

"Would you prefer a screen separating the nave from the altar which bears only an icon of Christ?"
Ultimately by biggest complaint about the icons in question is when they are given such a prominent position, that they can compete with the Lord for attention. Such is the case of the saint icon outside one of the churches I go to.

This is probably not a proper spirit to display during Lent, so I ask your pardon in advance, but in addition to being nonsense, this misunderstanding of icons and their place in our faith is dangerous to your spiritual health. The inside of St. John the Wonderworker is literally crammed with icons (if I can say it that way) - none of which compete with the Lord for attention.

I beg to differ. The one right outside our church can be replaced by an icon of the Lord, his birth, preaching, crucifixion, or Resurrection. That would be much more Christo-centric and Christian. Yes this is a reason I am absent from that parish.

Ian

I can understand that an icon of our Lord would be more of an outreach to the heterodox who might be passing by--you would be saying that we are a Christian church, come and check us out. On the other hand, it seems to me that outreach can be handled in a variety of ways, only one of which is the sort of icon that is displayed outside the church. In my church, we have an icon of the Holy Apostles displayed--very logical as we are the Holy Apostles Orthodox Church. Thus, the icon of our patron saints helps to solidify our recognition by the community. Same perhaps with the Orthodox church on Cherokee Avenue, which claims that "Saint John the Wonderworker Parish is the first church in the world named after Saint John (Maximovitch) of Shanghai and San Francisco....Over the years the parish has been able to gather several items that this beloved saint wore, including a thigh shield and two of his robes. More recently the Church was given a bone relic from his foot, the only part of his body that was not found to be incorrupt." So, in this i9nstane, we have a church that has particularly strong devotion to her patron saint. This is quite normal and has happened many times and many places. I would think that the veneration of Saint John does not detract from the worship due our Lord. I do not think that what the parish intends. However, you may be more comfortable with another local Orthodox Church. I can only vouch for one--St. Mary of Egypt in Norcross; the rector, Father Peter Smith is a wonderful priest.

ADDED: I checked out St John the Wonderworker's web site. While what I saw is merely an impression, it seems to me that this parish is quite serious about her calling. Why, they even highlight of serving the poor and the hungry--folks who look poor and hungry to boot. I take back my recommendation to go visit St Mary of Egypt; stay and grow where you are as I don't think that you realize how blessed you are.

[Alpo]

Prepare to make loud noises during Filioque.

 

I think Alpo was making a little joke.

Touché. Although I wouldn't be so suprised if there was some people who actually do that.

I would not only be surprised, I would be appalled and stunned if someone did that, or if someone did as PeterJ related about the Latin Catholics in the Byzantine Catholic Church!  Totally disrespectful and reprehensible, imho!  And I have to admit, I'm surprised that you *wouldn't* be surprised  .  But, that's just me....

I agree that it would be totally disrespectful and reprehensible. But then again people many religious people tend to occasionally be totally disrespectful and reprehensible.

[Ortho_cat]

I heard stories once of a Marian cult who would visit RC services and substitute Mary's name in for God (and do so loudly) during certain parts of the service. Although they could have been trolling Protestants just the same I suppose... 

[Papist]

I heard stories once of a Marian cult who would visit RC services and substitute Mary's name in for God (and do so loudly) during certain parts of the service. Although they could have been trolling Protestants just the same I suppose... 

ewwwwww

[J Michael]

I heard stories once of a Marian cult who would visit RC services and substitute Mary's name in for God (and do so loudly) during certain parts of the service. Although they could have been trolling Protestants just the same I suppose... 

Were these stories someone's great-grandmother told you while smoking her pipe on the porch, rocking away in her chair?  (You know--"Tales From Pyotr's Siberian Babushka")

Or something verifiable about real people  ?

[podkarpatska]

I heard stories once of a Marian cult who would visit RC services and substitute Mary's name in for God (and do so loudly) during certain parts of the service. Although they could have been trolling Protestants just the same I suppose... 

Were these stories someone's great-grandmother told you while smoking her pipe on the porch, rocking away in her chair?  (You know--"Tales From Pyotr's Siberian Babushka")

Or something verifiable about real people  ?

ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!! We need a Snopes.com for debunking or supporting outrageous religious anecdotes.

[biro]

ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!! We need a Snopes.com for debunking or supporting outrageous religious anecdotes.

I second that.

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