Author Topic: Visiting a Estern Catholic church  (Read 3995 times)

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Offline sprtslvr1973

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Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« on: March 17, 2012, 07:12:25 PM »
I just found an Eastern Catholic (Melkite) church close to my house. I am a little intrigued, and may go tomorrow. I have to say I like RCism less as an Orthodox than I did when I was Protestant. Still, I am considering a visit.

Anything you'd like to share or advice I should have?
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2012, 07:39:49 PM »
I would approach the Church in a brotherly manner, with an open mind and an open heart. Remembering that while they share much of our patrimony of the Eastern Church, their relationship with the Church of Rome puts them apart from the Orthodox. I would act as I would in my own Church, but for not partaking of the Eucharist should you attend Liturgy. I think you will find the Melkites to be friendly and they will welcome you as a brother in Christ.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2012, 10:43:18 PM »
I just found an Eastern Catholic (Melkite) church close to my house. I am a little intrigued, and may go tomorrow. I have to say I like RCism less as an Orthodox than I did when I was Protestant. Still, I am considering a visit.

Anything you'd like to share or advice I should have?

i'd go during a weekly service and go to DL at your usual parish, especially since this is during lent.

Offline sprtslvr1973

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2012, 10:49:40 PM »
I do and don't have a regular parish. I am unfairly looking for perfect Orthodoxy, and of course will never find it
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2012, 11:10:08 PM »
I do and don't have a regular parish. I am unfairly looking for perfect Orthodoxy, and of course will never find it

No perfect orthodoxy doesn't exist, but i'd give preference to your local EO parish, wherever that may be, especially on a sunday during lent.

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2012, 10:47:20 AM »
I do and don't have a regular parish. I am unfairly looking for perfect Orthodoxy, and of course will never find it

The church is living and breathing.  It's not a museum or a theatrical performance.  The church wasn't better back "then" or will it be better if it suits individual needs.  To deny the church is less than your expectations is to say Christ lets you down.  The church is Christ.

I don't know what you are looking for but I'd say stick with the church you know people at and is closest to you.  After all that is the local Christian community and you are a part of it.  If everyone that drove by my church to go to another Orthodox church would just pull in my parking lot we'd have the community we once had again.  Now it's just 15 people.  We have a picture where there were 128 kids in the Sunday school picture. 

Offline sprtslvr1973

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2012, 11:13:58 AM »
Went there today; kind of a flop. First, I got times confused. I thought it started at 9:30, as it turns out it started at 9:00. During coffee hour I tried to 'talk catechism' with a couple of guys, but they did not seem to know what their church believed.
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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2012, 11:36:35 AM »
Went there today; kind of a flop. First, I got times confused. I thought it started at 9:30, as it turns out it started at 9:00. During coffee hour I tried to 'talk catechism' with a couple of guys, but they did not seem to know what their church believed.

Because people go to church because it's a part of them not because they are theologians.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2012, 11:43:04 AM »
Went there today; kind of a flop. First, I got times confused. I thought it started at 9:30, as it turns out it started at 9:00. During coffee hour I tried to 'talk catechism' with a couple of guys, but they did not seem to know what their church believed.

Because people go to church because it's a part of them not because they are theologians.

Don't make excuses for them...

Offline sprtslvr1973

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2012, 12:54:47 PM »
Went there today; kind of a flop. First, I got times confused. I thought it started at 9:30, as it turns out it started at 9:00. During coffee hour I tried to 'talk catechism' with a couple of guys, but they did not seem to know what their church believed.

Because people go to church because it's a part of them not because they are theologians.

Don't make excuses for them...


Exactly, if something is part of them they should know more about it. (1 Peter 3:15)
"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2012, 01:20:23 PM »
Went there today; kind of a flop. First, I got times confused. I thought it started at 9:30, as it turns out it started at 9:00. During coffee hour I tried to 'talk catechism' with a couple of guys, but they did not seem to know what their church believed.

Because people go to church because it's a part of them not because they are theologians.

Don't make excuses for them...


Exactly, if something is part of them they should know more about it. (1 Peter 3:15)

do u know if they did the procession of the cross today?

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2012, 01:38:09 PM »
Went there today; kind of a flop. First, I got times confused. I thought it started at 9:30, as it turns out it started at 9:00. During coffee hour I tried to 'talk catechism' with a couple of guys, but they did not seem to know what their church believed.

Because people go to church because it's a part of them not because they are theologians.

Don't make excuses for them...


Exactly, if something is part of them they should know more about it. (1 Peter 3:15)

do u know if they did the procession of the cross today?

That was last week for the Greek Catholics.

And people are not theologians - nor are most parish priests - at least the successful ones in my experience. (If they are theologians, the smart ones don't let on.)

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2012, 01:47:58 PM »
Went there today; kind of a flop. First, I got times confused. I thought it started at 9:30, as it turns out it started at 9:00. During coffee hour I tried to 'talk catechism' with a couple of guys, but they did not seem to know what their church believed.

Because people go to church because it's a part of them not because they are theologians.

Don't make excuses for them...


Exactly, if something is part of them they should know more about it. (1 Peter 3:15)

do u know if they did the procession of the cross today?

That was last week for the Greek Catholics.

And people are not theologians - nor are most parish priests - at least the successful ones in my experience. (If they are theologians, the smart ones don't let on.)

I don't think everyone should strive to be theologians, but I think everyone should be held responsible for obtaining at least a basic understanding of their faith.

Offline Melodist

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2012, 04:16:08 PM »
So what constitutes a "basic understanding" in addition to what is outlined in the creed?
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2012, 04:29:03 PM »
Went there today; kind of a flop. First, I got times confused. I thought it started at 9:30, as it turns out it started at 9:00. During coffee hour I tried to 'talk catechism' with a couple of guys, but they did not seem to know what their church believed.

Because people go to church because it's a part of them not because they are theologians.

Don't make excuses for them...


Exactly, if something is part of them they should know more about it. (1 Peter 3:15)

do u know if they did the procession of the cross today?

That was last week for the Greek Catholics.

And people are not theologians - nor are most parish priests - at least the successful ones in my experience. (If they are theologians, the smart ones don't let on.)

I don't think everyone should strive to be theologians, but I think everyone should be held responsible for obtaining at least a basic understanding of their faith.

Of course they should, the problem is that some will always think that one has to have a D.Th. or Ph.D. in order to be versed in the faith or that a knowledge level that deep is necessary in order to practice the Faith.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2012, 04:33:15 PM »
So what constitutes a "basic understanding" in addition to what is outlined in the creed?

Depends on the person...

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2012, 05:04:37 PM »
So what constitutes a "basic understanding" in addition to what is outlined in the creed?

stuff that a person would learn going through catechesis i think.

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2012, 05:14:19 PM »
So what constitutes a "basic understanding" in addition to what is outlined in the creed?

stuff that a person would learn going through catechesis i think.

And stuff that one would learn by keeping one's eyes and ears open during services. The bulk of what the Church teaches is in her hymnography and iconography.
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2012, 05:16:43 PM »
So what constitutes a "basic understanding" in addition to what is outlined in the creed?

stuff that a person would learn going through catechesis i think.

And stuff that one would learn by keeping one's eyes and ears open during services. The bulk of what the Church teaches is in her hymnography and iconography.

amen

Offline Melodist

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2012, 05:28:51 PM »
So what constitutes a "basic understanding" in addition to what is outlined in the creed?
stuff that a person would learn going through catechesis i think.

That can vary from person to person.

My catechesis was my priest asking me if I knew what the Church teaches about Mary and the saints and taking my word for it when I simply said "yes".
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Melodist

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2012, 05:29:46 PM »
And stuff that one would learn by keeping one's eyes and ears open during services. The bulk of what the Church teaches is in her hymnography and iconography.

I would agree with this.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2012, 05:30:59 PM »
So what constitutes a "basic understanding" in addition to what is outlined in the creed?
stuff that a person would learn going through catechesis i think.

That can vary from person to person.

My catechesis was my priest asking me if I knew what the Church teaches about Mary and the saints and taking my word for it when I simply said "yes".

interesting. he must have known that you know your stuff ;)

Offline Peter J

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2012, 05:36:00 PM »
About a decade ago (I was still in grad school at the time) an Orthodox friend of mine learned that I attended a Melkite parish and expressed an interest in coming. Next thing you knew, he was there every week.
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2012, 08:06:05 PM »
About a decade ago (I was still in grad school at the time) an Orthodox friend of mine learned that I attended a Melkite parish and expressed an interest in coming. Next thing you knew, he was there every week.

why were his reasons for switching?

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2012, 09:20:13 PM »
I do and don't have a regular parish. I am unfairly looking for perfect Orthodoxy, and of course will never find it

If you are an Orthodox Christian, you should not be shopping around outside of the Church.  Please discuss this with a priest or trusted guide.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2012, 09:25:34 PM »
About a decade ago (I was still in grad school at the time) an Orthodox friend of mine learned that I attended a Melkite parish and expressed an interest in coming. Next thing you knew, he was there every week.

why were his reasons for switching?

That's a perfectly good question, but not one I would answer on someone else's behalf.

One thing I want to clarify, since you said "switching", is that I didn't mean he swam the Tiber.
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Offline sprtslvr1973

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2012, 07:26:53 AM »
I do and don't have a regular parish. I am unfairly looking for perfect Orthodoxy, and of course will never find it

If you are an Orthodox Christian, you should not be shopping around outside of the Church.  Please discuss this with a priest or trusted guide.

I wasn't really looking to leave the Orthodox church. When I mentioned looking for 'Perfect Orthodoxy', I was looking at other Orthodox churches. I just happened to go to the Eastern Catholic church out of curiosity.

As far as looking for an Orthodox church, I love my long time priest and fellow congregants at St. John the Wonder-worker OCA Church in Atlanta. However I hate certain liturgical aspects of the church. Why does the most prominent outdoor icon have to be of a 20th century bishop??????? It should be of the Lord. All icons of saints, etc should be very secondary. Being an Orthodox Christian, I do understand the importance and place of icons, and to display an icon of a man more prominently than that of Jesus Christ, really does border on absolute idolatry. Sorry, it does. It is things like this that make me look at other parishes. The point of frustration, and why I acknowledged the likely non-existance of 'perfect orthodoxy' is that other parishes have their own problems. Neither the other local OCA parish, nor the Antiochian parish I have gone to, have the liturgical handbook that St. John's does.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2012, 07:46:38 AM »
Quote
Why does the most prominent outdoor icon have to be of a 20th century bishop?

Because he is the patron of the parish. It is an exceedingly common, widespread across all Orthodox lands, and centuries-old, custom for the icon of the parish's or monastery's patron saint or patronal feast to be placed above the entrance to the church.

Quote
All icons of saints, etc should be very secondary.

Why? We venerate all who are saints, these true imitators of Christ, who form the great cloud of witnesses who surround us and intercede for us. Do you object to the presence of the icon of the Mother of God high above the altar, and perhaps the most prominent icon within the walls of the church? Would you prefer a screen separating the nave from the altar which bears only an icon of Christ? And what of festal icons? Would you relegate feasts to a lower rank, or to abolish them altogether, so as not to draw attention away from Christ? What else would you like to do to reduce the emphasis of saints in Orthodox worship and devotion?
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2012, 09:19:15 AM »
I do and don't have a regular parish. I am unfairly looking for perfect Orthodoxy, and of course will never find it

If you are an Orthodox Christian, you should not be shopping around outside of the Church.  Please discuss this with a priest or trusted guide.

I wasn't really looking to leave the Orthodox church. When I mentioned looking for 'Perfect Orthodoxy', I was looking at other Orthodox churches. I just happened to go to the Eastern Catholic church out of curiosity.

As far as looking for an Orthodox church, I love my long time priest and fellow congregants at St. John the Wonder-worker OCA Church in Atlanta. However I hate certain liturgical aspects of the church. Why does the most prominent outdoor icon have to be of a 20th century bishop??????? It should be of the Lord. All icons of saints, etc should be very secondary. Being an Orthodox Christian, I do understand the importance and place of icons, and to display an icon of a man more prominently than that of Jesus Christ, really does border on absolute idolatry. Sorry, it does. It is things like this that make me look at other parishes. The point of frustration, and why I acknowledged the likely non-existance of 'perfect orthodoxy' is that other parishes have their own problems. Neither the other local OCA parish, nor the Antiochian parish I have gone to, have the liturgical handbook that St. John's does.


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Offline sprtslvr1973

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2012, 01:48:51 PM »
Quote
Why does the most prominent outdoor icon have to be of a 20th century bishop?

Because he is the patron of the parish. It is an exceedingly common, widespread across all Orthodox lands, and centuries-old, custom for the icon of the parish's or monastery's patron saint or patronal feast to be placed above the entrance to the church.

Quote
All icons of saints, etc should be very secondary.

Why? We venerate all who are saints, these true imitators of Christ, who form the great cloud of witnesses who surround us and intercede for us. Do you object to the presence of the icon of the Mother of God high above the altar, and perhaps the most prominent icon within the walls of the church? Would you prefer a screen separating the nave from the altar which bears only an icon of Christ? And what of festal icons? Would you relegate feasts to a lower rank, or to abolish them altogether, so as not to draw attention away from Christ? What else would you like to do to reduce the emphasis of saints in Orthodox worship and devotion?

"Do you object to the presence of the icon of the Mother of God high above the altar, and perhaps the most prominent icon within the walls of the church?"
Answer: No, because every icon of the Theotokos that I have seen is in fact has her literally pointing or directing us to the Lord.

"Would you prefer a screen separating the nave from the altar which bears only an icon of Christ?"
Answer: Not sure I was going that way, but would that be bad? Whose Body and Blood do we receive at Communion?

"And what of festal icons? Would you relegate feasts to a lower rank, or to abolish them altogether, so as not to draw attention away from Christ?"
Answer: Every Festal Icon I have seen includes the Lord at the center. This includes icons of Pentecost; while His person is not seen, His spirit is. The same can be said icons based on parables (Prodigal Son)

"...would you like to do to reduce the emphasis of saints in Orthodox worship and devotion?"
Answer: Referring to the way I have seen their importance overemphasized, yes I would. If John the Wonder-worker was truly as devout as some will tell you, then he himself would hate to see a picture of himself alone for reverence or adoration.

Ultimately by biggest complaint about the icons in question is when they are given such a prominent position, that they can compete with the Lord for attention. Such is the case of the saint icon outside one of the churches I go to.





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Offline mike

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2012, 01:53:22 PM »
Answer: No, because every icon of the Theotokos that I have seen is in fact has her literally pointing or directing us to the Lord.

The one of her Nativity too? Or the Eleusa type? Or the Oranta type?

Quote
but would that be bad?

It would be against the VII Ecumenical Council.

Quote
Answer: Every Festal Icon I have seen includes the Lord at the center. This includes icons of Pentecost; while His person is not seen, His spirit is. The same can be said icons based on parables (Prodigal Son)

What about the icon of the Nativity of the Theotokos, Annunciation, Entrance of the Theotokos to the Temple, Exaltation of the Cross...?

Quote
If John the Wonder-worker was truly as devout as some will tell you, then he himself would hate to see a picture of himself alone for reverence or adoration.

I doubt he was a Calvinist.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 01:53:47 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2012, 02:02:36 PM »
When they have a saint, the patron of the parish, prominently displayed, that is a sign that he is the protector of that church. Same reason they name the church after a particular saint. Note that in the OT God often sent out angels to carry out missions on earth (such as protecting people or areas), this is no different except that now it is the saints (along with angels) entrusted with such tasks.

God is glorified in his saints!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 02:03:03 PM by Ortho_cat »

Offline mike

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2012, 02:06:39 PM »
@sprtslvr1973 : Have you found iconoclasts in that Melkite Church?

Offline sprtslvr1973

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2012, 02:17:09 PM »
Answer: No, because every icon of the Theotokos that I have seen is in fact has her literally pointing or directing us to the Lord.

The one of her Nativity too? Or the Eleusa type? Or the Oranta type?

Quote
but would that be bad?

It would be against the VII Ecumenical Council.

Quote
Answer: Every Festal Icon I have seen includes the Lord at the center. This includes icons of Pentecost; while His person is not seen, His spirit is. The same can be said icons based on parables (Prodigal Son)

What about the icon of the Nativity of the Theotokos, Annunciation, Entrance of the Theotokos to the Temple, Exaltation of the Cross...?

Quote
If John the Wonder-worker was truly as devout as some will tell you, then he himself would hate to see a picture of himself alone for reverence or adoration.

I doubt he was a Calvinist.

Only Calvinists are humble??
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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2012, 02:22:57 PM »
Only Calvinists are humble??

Calvinists are iconoclastic.

Offline LBK

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2012, 02:33:47 PM »
Answer: No, because every icon of the Theotokos that I have seen is in fact has her literally pointing or directing us to the Lord.

The one of her Nativity too? Or the Eleusa type? Or the Oranta type?

Quote
but would that be bad?

It would be against the VII Ecumenical Council.

Quote
Answer: Every Festal Icon I have seen includes the Lord at the center. This includes icons of Pentecost; while His person is not seen, His spirit is. The same can be said icons based on parables (Prodigal Son)

What about the icon of the Nativity of the Theotokos, Annunciation, Entrance of the Theotokos to the Temple, Exaltation of the Cross...?

Quote
If John the Wonder-worker was truly as devout as some will tell you, then he himself would hate to see a picture of himself alone for reverence or adoration.

I doubt he was a Calvinist.

Only Calvinists are humble??

Calvinists are iconoclasts by definition. Iconoclasm has no place whatsoever in Orthodoxy. The Quinisext and Seventh Ecumenical Councils, as well as so many iconodule Fathers such as St John of Damascus, have much to say about this.

As for your comment of "If John the Wonder-worker was truly as devout as some will tell you, then he himself would hate to see a picture of himself alone for reverence or adoration.", this betrays a lack of understanding of what iconography is and stands for.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2012, 02:38:21 PM »
Excuse this Catholic for butting-in, but I thought saints' icons are secondary.  ???
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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2012, 02:39:55 PM »
Excuse this Catholic for butting-in, but I thought saints' icons are secondary.  ???

There is no difference between an icon of a Saint (who is an icon of Christ) than the icon of Christ.

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2012, 02:43:10 PM »
I have heard that one of the few differences in the EC way of doing the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is that the ECs include the Pope in the litany. Everything else is supposed to be very similar.

I think you'll enjoy your visit.  :)
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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2012, 02:44:02 PM »
Excuse this Catholic for butting-in, but I thought saints' icons are secondary.  ???

There is no difference between an icon of a Saint (who is an icon of Christ) than the icon of Christ.

You beat me to it.  :)
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2012, 02:48:51 PM »
There is no difference between an icon of a Saint (who is an icon of Christ) than the icon of Christ.

Thank you!

Saints are not making Christ secondary. For God's sake, they're those who have become christs! Gods by grace! They are the work of God in action through the ages.

You seem to have absolutely an incorrect understanding of what idolatry is.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2012, 03:01:35 PM »
... the ECs include the Pope in the litany.

Yes. See our "'imposed' latinizations" discussion here.
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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2012, 03:37:43 PM »
Prepare to make loud noises during Filioque.

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2012, 03:39:29 PM »
Prepare to make loud noises during Filioque.

 ???
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Offline sprtslvr1973

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2012, 03:40:56 PM »
There is no difference between an icon of a Saint (who is an icon of Christ) than the icon of Christ.

Thank you!

Saints are not making Christ secondary. For God's sake, they're those who have become christs! Gods by grace! They are the work of God in action through the ages.

You seem to have absolutely an incorrect understanding of what idolatry is.

I hope you mean the Image of Christ and are not talking apotheosis
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2012, 04:03:45 PM »
"Would you prefer a screen separating the nave from the altar which bears only an icon of Christ?"
Ultimately by biggest complaint about the icons in question is when they are given such a prominent position, that they can compete with the Lord for attention. Such is the case of the saint icon outside one of the churches I go to.


This is probably not a proper spirit to display during Lent, so I ask your pardon in advance, but in addition to being nonsense, this misunderstanding of icons and their place in our faith is dangerous to your spiritual health. The inside of St. John the Wonderworker is literally crammed with icons (if I can say it that way) - none of which compete with the Lord for attention.
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Offline sprtslvr1973

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2012, 04:10:56 PM »
"Would you prefer a screen separating the nave from the altar which bears only an icon of Christ?"
Ultimately by biggest complaint about the icons in question is when they are given such a prominent position, that they can compete with the Lord for attention. Such is the case of the saint icon outside one of the churches I go to.


This is probably not a proper spirit to display during Lent, so I ask your pardon in advance, but in addition to being nonsense, this misunderstanding of icons and their place in our faith is dangerous to your spiritual health. The inside of St. John the Wonderworker is literally crammed with icons (if I can say it that way) - none of which compete with the Lord for attention.

I beg to differ. The one right outside our church can be replaced by an icon of the Lord, his birth, preaching, crucifixion, or Resurrection. That would be much more Christo-centric and Christian. Yes this is a reason I am absent from that parish.

Ian
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Offline mike

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2012, 04:11:52 PM »
The one right outside our church can be replaced by an icon of the Lord, his birth, preaching, crucifixion, or Resurrection. That would be much more Christo-centric and Christian.

Says who? John Calvin?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 04:15:59 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline sprtslvr1973

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2012, 04:25:06 PM »
The one right outside our church can be replaced by an icon of the Lord, his birth, preaching, crucifixion, or Resurrection. That would be much more Christo-centric and Christian.

Says who? John Calvin?


You bring up Calvin a fair bit. To answer your question, maybe he would agree. Good for him if he did.
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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2012, 04:26:44 PM »
That would make him a target of the VII Council anathemas.

Offline sprtslvr1973

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2012, 04:34:30 PM »
Answer: No, because every icon of the Theotokos that I have seen is in fact has her literally pointing or directing us to the Lord.

The one of her Nativity too? Or the Eleusa type? Or the Oranta type?

Quote
but would that be bad?

It would be against the VII Ecumenical Council.

Quote
Answer: Every Festal Icon I have seen includes the Lord at the center. This includes icons of Pentecost; while His person is not seen, His spirit is. The same can be said icons based on parables (Prodigal Son)

What about the icon of the Nativity of the Theotokos, Annunciation, Entrance of the Theotokos to the Temple, Exaltation of the Cross...?

Quote
If John the Wonder-worker was truly as devout as some will tell you, then he himself would hate to see a picture of himself alone for reverence or adoration.

I doubt he was a Calvinist.

In this case I was referring to Christian humility,  not iconoclasm.
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Offline sprtslvr1973

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2012, 04:37:54 PM »
As I understand it, Iconoclasts are against depictions of Christ. My whole complaint is that there are not enough of them
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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2012, 04:49:37 PM »
In this case I was referring to Christian humility,  not iconoclasm.

Icons cannot be made of those, who are alive.

As I understand it, Iconoclasts are against depictions of Christ.

We decree with full precision and care that, like the figure of the honoured and life-giving cross, the revered and holy images, whether painted or made of mosaic or of other suitable material, are to be exposed in the holy churches of God, on sacred instruments and vestments, on walls and panels, in houses and by public ways, these are the images of our Lord, God and saviour, Jesus Christ, and of our Lady without blemish, the holy God-bearer, and of the revered angels and of any of the saintly holy men.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 04:52:52 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2012, 05:34:57 PM »
"Would you prefer a screen separating the nave from the altar which bears only an icon of Christ?"
Ultimately by biggest complaint about the icons in question is when they are given such a prominent position, that they can compete with the Lord for attention. Such is the case of the saint icon outside one of the churches I go to.


This is probably not a proper spirit to display during Lent, so I ask your pardon in advance, but in addition to being nonsense, this misunderstanding of icons and their place in our faith is dangerous to your spiritual health. The inside of St. John the Wonderworker is literally crammed with icons (if I can say it that way) - none of which compete with the Lord for attention.

I beg to differ. The one right outside our church can be replaced by an icon of the Lord, his birth, preaching, crucifixion, or Resurrection. That would be much more Christo-centric and Christian. Yes this is a reason I am absent from that parish.

Ian

Again, with humility, persisting in this arrogance and misunderstanding, is dangerous for your soul. May God help you.
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2012, 06:58:24 PM »
As I understand it, Iconoclasts are against depictions of Christ. My whole complaint is that there are not enough of them
Saints in no way take away from Christ. They point towards Him. After all, the only reason they are even Saints is because of Him.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2012, 07:13:58 PM »
Prepare to make loud noises during Filioque.

 ???

I think Alpo was making a little joke. However, this reminds me of a post on byzcath: the poster related how, at a certain EC parish, a small number of LCs (who apparently didn't like the omission of the filioque) regularly attended and would loudly add "and the Son" after everyone had said "who proceeds from the Father". (I think he said that those LCs are traditionalist -- but needless to say, not all of us traditionalists are like that.)
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2012, 02:41:06 AM »
Prepare to make loud noises during Filioque.

 ???

I think Alpo was making a little joke.

Touché. Although I wouldn't be so suprised if there was some people who actually do that.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 02:44:36 AM by Alpo »

Offline stanley123

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2012, 04:09:47 AM »
Went there today; kind of a flop. First, I got times confused. I thought it started at 9:30, as it turns out it started at 9:00. During coffee hour I tried to 'talk catechism' with a couple of guys, but they did not seem to know what their church believed.
Some people are into discussing theology while others are not. I think it is the same in the Orthodox Churches, no?

Offline Peter J

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2012, 08:11:37 AM »
Went there today; kind of a flop. First, I got times confused. I thought it started at 9:30, as it turns out it started at 9:00. During coffee hour I tried to 'talk catechism' with a couple of guys, but they did not seem to know what their church believed.
Some people are into discussing theology while others are not. I think it is the same in the Orthodox Churches, no?

I should certainly think so. I know it's just as true in LC parishes as in EC parishes.
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Offline sprtslvr1973

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2012, 08:42:57 AM »
Went there today; kind of a flop. First, I got times confused. I thought it started at 9:30, as it turns out it started at 9:00. During coffee hour I tried to 'talk catechism' with a couple of guys, but they did not seem to know what their church believed.
Some people are into discussing theology while others are not. I think it is the same in the Orthodox Churches, no?

And in many Protestant/Evangelical churches I have been to. But still...
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2012, 09:58:20 AM »
Prepare to make loud noises during Filioque.

 ???

I think Alpo was making a little joke. However, this reminds me of a post on byzcath: the poster related how, at a certain EC parish, a small number of LCs (who apparently didn't like the omission of the filioque) regularly attended and would loudly add "and the Son" after everyone had said "who proceeds from the Father". (I think he said that those LCs are traditionalist -- but needless to say, not all of us traditionalists are like that.)

Ohh...Sometimes on this board when people make "jokes" without the benefit of an accompanying emoticon the "joke" they are making could get wildly misinterpreted--especially by someone as old and colossally ignorant as I am  :laugh: :laugh:.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2012, 10:02:52 AM »
Prepare to make loud noises during Filioque.

 ???

I think Alpo was making a little joke.

Touché. Although I wouldn't be so suprised if there was some people who actually do that.

I would not only be surprised, I would be appalled and stunned if someone did that, or if someone did as PeterJ related about the Latin Catholics in the Byzantine Catholic Church!  Totally disrespectful and reprehensible, imho!  And I have to admit, I'm surprised that you *wouldn't* be surprised  ::).  But, that's just me....
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 10:03:12 AM by J Michael »
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2012, 02:48:31 PM »
Well, I won't try to say whether people should be surprised or not, but I've found the post I mentioned earlier. The thread started with this question:

Quote from: Altar Boy
My question is this....I have noticed that in many of the pew books and prayer books, the filioque is inserted in parenthesis. Could a Traditional minded Western Catholic join the East and be allowed to follow his conscience by reciting the filioque during the Creed?

and one of the replies said:

Quote from: ukrainiancatholic
There are many problems with the Tridentines at my home parish. They have caused much upheavel and distress on the liturgical and social life of the parish.

We welcome all guests to worship with us at Liturgy, however, a malicious intent to cause spiritual havoc by attempting to change parts of our Liturgy, and even liturgical items inside of the church, is most unwelcomed.

Back home, when ever the Creed is chanted in English, the Tridentines in unison shoutout, "and the Son!" Not only is that disrespectful to others in the church praying, but to God because at Liturgy we worship Him; we do not go to force our grievances upon others.

Just my take on the issue. Welcome them to partake in our Liturgy as we do, not to come just as a refugee.

-uc

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/50342/1
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 02:52:12 PM by Peter J »
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Offline Papist

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2012, 03:35:04 PM »
Well, I won't try to say whether people should be surprised or not, but I've found the post I mentioned earlier. The thread started with this question:

Quote from: Altar Boy
My question is this....I have noticed that in many of the pew books and prayer books, the filioque is inserted in parenthesis. Could a Traditional minded Western Catholic join the East and be allowed to follow his conscience by reciting the filioque during the Creed?

and one of the replies said:

Quote from: ukrainiancatholic
There are many problems with the Tridentines at my home parish. They have caused much upheavel and distress on the liturgical and social life of the parish.

We welcome all guests to worship with us at Liturgy, however, a malicious intent to cause spiritual havoc by attempting to change parts of our Liturgy, and even liturgical items inside of the church, is most unwelcomed.

Back home, when ever the Creed is chanted in English, the Tridentines in unison shoutout, "and the Son!" Not only is that disrespectful to others in the church praying, but to God because at Liturgy we worship Him; we do not go to force our grievances upon others.

Just my take on the issue. Welcome them to partake in our Liturgy as we do, not to come just as a refugee.

-uc

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/50342/1
This is absolutely terrible. I would hope that the Byzatine priests could tell these "traditionalists" (I use quotes because reall traditionalists would respect the Apostolic traditions of the Byzantine Churches) that they need to cut it our, or they can simply leave. Can't the priest appeal to the Bishop to deal with these disrespectful latins?
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Offline Adela

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2012, 03:40:25 PM »
Yes, this is incredibly rude. They are guests and they are deliberately being disruptive?  Too bad there aren't any old-time Traditional Nuns there to smack their hands with rulers everytime they disrupt the Liturgy..... >:(

Offline Papist

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2012, 03:43:03 PM »
I would have a difficult time not telling these "tratitionalists" to take a hike.  >:(
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 03:43:21 PM by Papist »
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2012, 05:37:11 PM »
Well, I won't try to say whether people should be surprised or not, but I've found the post I mentioned earlier. The thread started with this question:

Quote from: Altar Boy
My question is this....I have noticed that in many of the pew books and prayer books, the filioque is inserted in parenthesis. Could a Traditional minded Western Catholic join the East and be allowed to follow his conscience by reciting the filioque during the Creed?

and one of the replies said:

Quote from: ukrainiancatholic
There are many problems with the Tridentines at my home parish. They have caused much upheavel and distress on the liturgical and social life of the parish.

We welcome all guests to worship with us at Liturgy, however, a malicious intent to cause spiritual havoc by attempting to change parts of our Liturgy, and even liturgical items inside of the church, is most unwelcomed.

Back home, when ever the Creed is chanted in English, the Tridentines in unison shoutout, "and the Son!" Not only is that disrespectful to others in the church praying, but to God because at Liturgy we worship Him; we do not go to force our grievances upon others.

Just my take on the issue. Welcome them to partake in our Liturgy as we do, not to come just as a refugee.

-uc

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/50342/1
This is absolutely terrible. I would hope that the Byzatine priests could tell these "traditionalists" (I use quotes because reall traditionalists would respect the Apostolic traditions of the Byzantine Churches)

Yeah, some people have weird ideas about what "traditionalists" means. I recall a discussion on a traditional Catholic forum about order of sacraments, in which a small (fortunately) number of posters absolutely insisted that baptism-eucharist-confirmation was the "traditional" order. (Of course, now I'm getting ever further off-topic.)
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2012, 06:24:43 PM »
"Would you prefer a screen separating the nave from the altar which bears only an icon of Christ?"
Ultimately by biggest complaint about the icons in question is when they are given such a prominent position, that they can compete with the Lord for attention. Such is the case of the saint icon outside one of the churches I go to.


This is probably not a proper spirit to display during Lent, so I ask your pardon in advance, but in addition to being nonsense, this misunderstanding of icons and their place in our faith is dangerous to your spiritual health. The inside of St. John the Wonderworker is literally crammed with icons (if I can say it that way) - none of which compete with the Lord for attention.

I beg to differ. The one right outside our church can be replaced by an icon of the Lord, his birth, preaching, crucifixion, or Resurrection. That would be much more Christo-centric and Christian. Yes this is a reason I am absent from that parish.

Ian

I can understand that an icon of our Lord would be more of an outreach to the heterodox who might be passing by--you would be saying that we are a Christian church, come and check us out. On the other hand, it seems to me that outreach can be handled in a variety of ways, only one of which is the sort of icon that is displayed outside the church. In my church, we have an icon of the Holy Apostles displayed--very logical as we are the Holy Apostles Orthodox Church. Thus, the icon of our patron saints helps to solidify our recognition by the community. Same perhaps with the Orthodox church on Cherokee Avenue, which claims that "Saint John the Wonderworker Parish is the first church in the world named after Saint John (Maximovitch) of Shanghai and San Francisco....Over the years the parish has been able to gather several items that this beloved saint wore, including a thigh shield and two of his robes. More recently the Church was given a bone relic from his foot, the only part of his body that was not found to be incorrupt." So, in this i9nstane, we have a church that has particularly strong devotion to her patron saint. This is quite normal and has happened many times and many places. I would think that the veneration of Saint John does not detract from the worship due our Lord. I do not think that what the parish intends. However, you may be more comfortable with another local Orthodox Church. I can only vouch for one--St. Mary of Egypt in Norcross; the rector, Father Peter Smith is a wonderful priest.

ADDED: I checked out St John the Wonderworker's web site. While what I saw is merely an impression, it seems to me that this parish is quite serious about her calling. Why, they even highlight of serving the poor and the hungry--folks who look poor and hungry to boot. I take back my recommendation to go visit St Mary of Egypt; stay and grow where you are as I don't think that you realize how blessed you are.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 06:39:43 PM by Second Chance »

Offline Alpo

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2012, 01:46:58 PM »
Prepare to make loud noises during Filioque.

 ???

I think Alpo was making a little joke.

Touché. Although I wouldn't be so suprised if there was some people who actually do that.

I would not only be surprised, I would be appalled and stunned if someone did that, or if someone did as PeterJ related about the Latin Catholics in the Byzantine Catholic Church!  Totally disrespectful and reprehensible, imho!  And I have to admit, I'm surprised that you *wouldn't* be surprised  ::).  But, that's just me....

I agree that it would be totally disrespectful and reprehensible. But then again people many religious people tend to occasionally be totally disrespectful and reprehensible.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2012, 02:05:07 PM »
I heard stories once of a Marian cult who would visit RC services and substitute Mary's name in for God (and do so loudly) during certain parts of the service. Although they could have been trolling Protestants just the same I suppose...  ::)

Offline Papist

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2012, 12:17:34 PM »
I heard stories once of a Marian cult who would visit RC services and substitute Mary's name in for God (and do so loudly) during certain parts of the service. Although they could have been trolling Protestants just the same I suppose...  ::)
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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2012, 12:51:22 PM »
I heard stories once of a Marian cult who would visit RC services and substitute Mary's name in for God (and do so loudly) during certain parts of the service. Although they could have been trolling Protestants just the same I suppose...  ::)

Were these stories someone's great-grandmother told you while smoking her pipe on the porch, rocking away in her chair?  (You know--"Tales From Pyotr's Siberian Babushka") :laugh: :laugh:

Or something verifiable about real people  :angel:?
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #72 on: March 26, 2012, 02:18:05 PM »
I heard stories once of a Marian cult who would visit RC services and substitute Mary's name in for God (and do so loudly) during certain parts of the service. Although they could have been trolling Protestants just the same I suppose...  ::)

Were these stories someone's great-grandmother told you while smoking her pipe on the porch, rocking away in her chair?  (You know--"Tales From Pyotr's Siberian Babushka") :laugh: :laugh:

Or something verifiable about real people  :angel:?

ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!! We need a Snopes.com for debunking or supporting outrageous religious anecdotes.

Offline biro

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Re: Visiting a Estern Catholic church
« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2012, 04:31:36 PM »
Quote from: podkarpatska
ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!! We need a Snopes.com for debunking or supporting outrageous religious anecdotes.

I second that. :)
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