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Author Topic: Quotes in Protestant bible from other sources?  (Read 1703 times) Average Rating: 0
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Deborah
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« on: March 17, 2012, 03:09:29 PM »

I was reading Acts 20 this morning, and the study note for verse 35 said Jesus' quote, "It is more blessed to give than to receive" came from 1 Clement 46.7 Shocked  What is this Clement?  Are there any other quotes or references from sources outside of the Protestant canon that appear in the Protestant bible? Thanks!

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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2012, 03:21:18 PM »

It didn't come from 1 Clement, which was written ~20 years after Acts. Not sure about that one (and don't have that OSB to look it up)  But there are examples in the Bible of it quoting non-biblical/canonical sources, such as 2 Tim. 3:8, Jude 14-15, etc. Paul also quotes pagans, such as in Acts 17:28 and 1 Cor. 15:33
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2012, 03:37:21 PM »

That quote isn't exclusive to the Protestant bible and doesn't come from an outside source, it belongs in the book of Acts. Clement was one of the early bishops of Rome who knew the apostles and that particular epistle is one that he wrote to the Corinthians. Anyway, the fathers quote scripture, not the other way around.
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2012, 05:18:43 PM »

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Clement_of_Rome



Our father among the saints Clement of Rome (also called Clemens Romanus to distinguish him from Clement of Alexandria) was the third in succession after the Apostle Peter as bishop of Rome. Clement is known mainly for the letter he wrote to the Corinthians in about AD 96. He is counted among the apostolic fathers. His feast day is November 23 in the west, but in the east he is remembered on November 25).

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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2012, 08:19:29 AM »

Melodist, Ortho_cat - Thanks for explaining who Clement of Rome is and his Epistle.  Asteriktos - thanks for examples of extra-biblical quotes.

I found 1 Clement online and the quote comes from 2:1, not 46:7.  I found the reference in an NIV study bible.  It caught my eye as this study bible tends to bypass or gloss over contentious issues, not mention them so directly or delve too deeply.

I've been reading through the (66-book) bible over the last year, and it's one of several things that has stuck out for me on that journey.  Another was the discovery that Jesus quoted from the Septuagint and not from a Hebrew 39-book OT.  If Jesus and Paul quoted from books and sources outside of what is regarded as 'the bible' by Protestants, how does that fit in with a 'sola scriptura' view?  It got me starting to think 'outside the square'...

Thanks
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« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2012, 08:25:00 AM »

Another was the discovery that Jesus quoted from the Septuagint and not from a Hebrew 39-book OT.  If Jesus and Paul quoted from books and sources outside of what is regarded as 'the bible' by Protestants, how does that fit in with a 'sola scriptura' view?  It got me starting to think 'outside the square'...

Do you consider both the KJV and NIV versions of the New Testament to be scripture?
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« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2012, 11:22:58 AM »

Just a note, Clement was read in the Early Church. Alot of folks back then heard I Clement and knew it well.

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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2012, 12:16:19 PM »

I found 1 Clement online and the quote comes from 2:1, not 46:7.  I found the reference in an NIV study bible.  It caught my eye as this study bible tends to bypass or gloss over contentious issues, not mention them so directly or delve too deeply.

Ahh, thank you, I shouldn't have assumed you were talking about the OSB, especially given the thread title Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2012, 12:31:43 PM »

I found 1 Clement online and the quote comes from 2:1, not 46:7.  I found the reference in an NIV study bible.  It caught my eye as this study bible tends to bypass or gloss over contentious issues, not mention them so directly or delve too deeply.

Ahh, thank you, I shouldn't have assumed you were talking about the OSB, especially given the thread title Smiley

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« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2012, 12:40:13 PM »

I found 1 Clement online and the quote comes from 2:1, not 46:7.  I found the reference in an NIV study bible.  It caught my eye as this study bible tends to bypass or gloss over contentious issues, not mention them so directly or delve too deeply.

Ahh, thank you, I shouldn't have assumed you were talking about the OSB, especially given the thread title Smiley

"People are dying out there, every day. Entire worlds are struggling for their freedom. And here I am still worrying about the finer points of morality." ~ Sisko
So I lied.....so I..I cheated. I paid a man to cover up the crimes of another man. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it ~ Sisko.

In other news, I would like to ask something. I hear the term, protestant bible. If we are referencing the New Testament, is it not exactly the same books that are in the real, actual Orthodox Bible?

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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2012, 06:06:33 AM »

Do you consider both the KJV and NIV versions of the New Testament to be scripture?

Hi Melodist - Yes I do, don't hold to a "KJV only" viewpoint.  Could you explain the reasoning behind your question?  Thanks.


Ahh, thank you, I shouldn't have assumed you were talking about the OSB, especially given the thread title Smiley

No worries Asteriktos Smiley  Probably should've mentioned the bible translation I found that study note in, in the first post.


"People are dying out there, every day. Entire worlds are struggling for their freedom. And here I am still worrying about the finer points of morality." ~ Sisko

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?


In other news, I would like to ask something. I hear the term, protestant bible. If we are referencing the New Testament, is it not exactly the same books that are in the real, actual Orthodox Bible?

They are as far as I'm aware - it's the OT where they differ.  By Protestant bible, I meant the 66-book version (not including the deuterocanonicals) regarded as 'canonical' in Protestant circles.  Sorry for not making that clear in my first post.

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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2012, 08:39:35 AM »

Do you consider both the KJV and NIV versions of the New Testament to be scripture?
Hi Melodist - Yes I do, don't hold to a "KJV only" viewpoint.  Could you explain the reasoning behind your question?  Thanks.

The reason I asked explicitly about the NT translations is because the two are translated from two different greek manuscripts and differ in places (the actual text, not just how it's translated), even though they have the same books. This is why some people and groups don't accept the NIV. If one can hold to a sola scriptura view and still accept multiple manuscript traditions as being divinely inspired scripture with the NT, then it may be easier to accept it in the OT. As a side note, most translations of the OT that rely on the Masoretic Text (the one used in Protestant translations) use the Septuagint as an aid in translating in some spots (Is 7:14 for example). Also the fact that the apostles quote from the Septuagint shows that it was in use at the time and greek speaking Jews were familiar with it.

Concerning the books found in the Septuagint (Catholic and Orthodox) that are not found in the Masoretic Text (Protestant), most if not all early Protestants considered them to be "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" with the exception of a couple of places that they found problematic for Protestant beliefs, they just didn't consider them to be "given by inspiration of God". They still included them in their bibles in a seperate section, and their removal from Protestant bibles is fairly recent and originally done more to cut down on printing costs than anything else.

As far as non-biblical quotes like when Paul quotes the greek pagan philosophers in Athens, he didn't quote them because he considered them to be scripture (even though that one quote has become so by being recorded in Acts), but because he knew it to be true and they already accepted and believed it.

Just a couple of thoughts.
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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2012, 06:02:04 AM »

Do you consider both the KJV and NIV versions of the New Testament to be scripture?
Hi Melodist - Yes I do, don't hold to a "KJV only" viewpoint.  Could you explain the reasoning behind your question?  Thanks.

The reason I asked explicitly about the NT translations is because the two are translated from two different greek manuscripts and differ in places (the actual text, not just how it's translated), even though they have the same books. This is why some people and groups don't accept the NIV. If one can hold to a sola scriptura view and still accept multiple manuscript traditions as being divinely inspired scripture with the NT, then it may be easier to accept it in the OT. As a side note, most translations of the OT that rely on the Masoretic Text (the one used in Protestant translations) use the Septuagint as an aid in translating in some spots (Is 7:14 for example). Also the fact that the apostles quote from the Septuagint shows that it was in use at the time and greek speaking Jews were familiar with it.

Concerning the books found in the Septuagint (Catholic and Orthodox) that are not found in the Masoretic Text (Protestant), most if not all early Protestants considered them to be "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" with the exception of a couple of places that they found problematic for Protestant beliefs, they just didn't consider them to be "given by inspiration of God". They still included them in their bibles in a seperate section, and their removal from Protestant bibles is fairly recent and originally done more to cut down on printing costs than anything else.

As far as non-biblical quotes like when Paul quotes the greek pagan philosophers in Athens, he didn't quote them because he considered them to be scripture (even though that one quote has become so by being recorded in Acts), but because he knew it to be true and they already accepted and believed it.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Aha got it, thanks!  I wasn't aware that the KJV and NIV were translated from different Greek NTs. I assume that most modern English bible translations have the same NT textual basis as the NIV?  To be honest, I've never investigated what text(s) the different English translations are based on.  The only time I've seen the matter discussed is in "KJV only" debates on online Christian forums - a lot of the points raised go over my head, and I hate the divisiveness such posts raise.  That's an interesting point regarding holding to "sola scriptura", yet at the same time accepting translations from different texts.

I knew about the deuterocanonicals being included in earlier editions of the KJV (and translations prior to it) and the reasoning behind them being relegated to their own section between the OT and NT.  Didn't know their removal was due to printing costs though.  It's a shame they were stripped out, for whatever reason.  I recently found a Catholic bible (Good News version) in a second hand bookshop, with all the 'extra' books appearing in the OT in their proper order.  I'm looking forward to reading those, and it'll tide me over until I can get a copy of the Orthodox Study Bible. Smiley

Good point in the last paragraph too and something else that had not occurred to me.

Thanks again Melodist, there's a lot of food for thought in there!

Deborah
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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2012, 08:59:45 AM »

I wasn't aware that the KJV and NIV were translated from different Greek NTs.

There aren't that many differences and most of them are very minor. Some bibles include notes with the differences in texts.

Quote
I assume that most modern English bible translations have the same NT textual basis as the NIV?

I think most are translated from the same text as the KJV. Most of them are pretty good, but some of the more modern Protestant translations will be (mis)translated in spots to purposely push Protestant doctrine.
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