Author Topic: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord  (Read 36047 times)

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Offline Stavro

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #180 on: October 10, 2012, 11:24:51 AM »
Bishop Kyrolos of Milan withdrew from the elections, citing health reasons.

Reports in the egyptian newspapers, not yet confirmed by the church officials, that Bishop Raphael, the popular and saintly general bishop of Cairo, has also withdrawn, saying that he was coerced by Bishop Moussa, his mentor, to enter this election against his will. He also cited health reasons.

Hopefully the church officials will comment.

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #181 on: October 10, 2012, 11:34:18 AM »
A Coptic bishop of Milan? The city in Italy?
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Offline Stavro

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #182 on: October 10, 2012, 11:51:28 AM »
A Coptic bishop of Milan? The city in Italy?

Yes. The city of Milan, Italy.

We have another diocese in Italy, called "Coptic Diocese of Turin and Rome". The bishop of this diocese is Bishop Barnabas.

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #183 on: October 10, 2012, 12:04:13 PM »
A Coptic bishop of Milan? The city in Italy?

Yes. The city of Milan, Italy.

We have another diocese in Italy, called "Coptic Diocese of Turin and Rome". The bishop of this diocese is Bishop Barnabas.



Interesting. Amazing that the bishop of Milan was in the race to become the Patriarch of Alexandria.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 12:05:52 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #184 on: October 10, 2012, 03:13:09 PM »
Bishop Kyrolos of Milan withdrew from the elections, citing health reasons.

Reports in the egyptian newspapers, not yet confirmed by the church officials, that Bishop Raphael, the popular and saintly general bishop of Cairo, has also withdrawn, saying that he was coerced by Bishop Moussa, his mentor, to enter this election against his will. He also cited health reasons.

Hopefully the church officials will comment.


HG Bishop Kyrillos I heard.  HG Bishop Rafael, I haven't heard yet, but this would be an interesting turn of events.

For sure the other 2 diocesan bishops seem to be too proud to withdraw their names.

I have big dreams that despite all these bishops, Fr. Rafael Ava Mina would be in the top list.  God give us a Pope Mina!
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Offline Suryoyutho

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #185 on: October 13, 2012, 07:59:38 AM »
http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/55492.aspx

At a press conference on Saturday afternoon in Wadi El-Natroun, Egypt's Coptic Orthodox Church announced the final list of 5 candidates in the running to become the next pope replacing Pope Shenouda III who died in March.

Two of the candidates are monks and three are priests. Candidates are Archbishop Raphael, general bishop of Central Cairo, Archbishop Tawadros, Priest Raphael Afamina, Bakhamious El-Souriani and Priest Sarafim El-Souriani.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #186 on: October 13, 2012, 08:06:42 AM »
I have big dreams that despite all these bishops, Fr. Rafael Ava Mina would be in the top list.  God give us a Pope Mina!

Do they change their names upon becoming bishop, or keep their monastic name?

Baba Kyrillos was a Mina, right?

Offline Severian

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #187 on: October 13, 2012, 08:26:14 AM »
I have big dreams that despite all these bishops, Fr. Rafael Ava Mina would be in the top list.  God give us a Pope Mina!

Do they change their names upon becoming bishop, or keep their monastic name?

Baba Kyrillos was a Mina, right?
Yes on both counts.
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -The Lord Jesus

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Offline Severian

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #188 on: October 13, 2012, 08:27:40 AM »
http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/55492.aspx

At a press conference on Saturday afternoon in Wadi El-Natroun, Egypt's Coptic Orthodox Church announced the final list of 5 candidates in the running to become the next pope replacing Pope Shenouda III who died in March.

Two of the candidates are monks and three are priests. Candidates are Archbishop Raphael, general bishop of Central Cairo, Archbishop Tawadros, Priest Raphael Afamina, Bakhamious El-Souriani and Priest Sarafim El-Souriani.
Al7amdulilah Met. Bishoy is off the list! Is Archbishop Tawadros a Diocesan Bishop?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 08:38:35 AM by Severian »
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -The Lord Jesus

The Saviour is made of elements which are distinct from one another yet He is not two Persons. God forbid! For both natures are one by the combination. -St. Gregory Nazianzen

Offline Jonathan

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #189 on: October 13, 2012, 09:10:54 AM »
http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/55492.aspx

At a press conference on Saturday afternoon in Wadi El-Natroun, Egypt's Coptic Orthodox Church announced the final list of 5 candidates in the running to become the next pope replacing Pope Shenouda III who died in March.

Two of the candidates are monks and three are priests. Candidates are Archbishop Raphael, general bishop of Central Cairo, Archbishop Tawadros, Priest Raphael Afamina, Bakhamious El-Souriani and Priest Sarafim El-Souriani.

Two general bishops and three hegoumens actually :)

Quote
Do they change their names upon becoming bishop, or keep their monastic name?

Baba Kyrillos was a Mina, right?

They are given a new name at ever ordination. So if a priest is selected, they will be ordained archbishop of Alexandria, and given a new name. If a bishop is selected, they cannot be ordained the bishop of Alexandria since they are already a bishop, they are merely transferred to the throne of Alexandria, so their name remains the same.

Quote
Is Archbishop Tawadros a Diocesan Bishop?
Both bishops are general bishops. (the archbishop title is clearly an error). Anba Tawadros is assistant to Anba Pachomios, so essentially H.G. is the auxiliary bishop of a diocese, and should not be transferred from that diocese.

Anba Rafael is a general bishop over an area of Cairo, so essentially an auxiliary bishop to the Pope... So somewhat closer to becoming canonical, though having a diocese covering Alexandria, Cairo, Canada, New jersey, etc, with general bishops in each area seems in effect to be diocene bishops of areas, with improper authority left to the Pope.

So it's great that the enthroned diocene bishops have been removed, and that three canonically proper candidates have been left. If only Anba Rafael would make good on H.G.'s intention to withdraw now that it is not necessary to prevent the ambition of Anba Pishoi, Anba Youannis, and Anba Paphnoutius


Offline Severian

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #190 on: October 13, 2012, 09:40:58 AM »
^If Bishop Tawadros is elected, will Fr. Athanasius and the like have a problem with it? Will a schism (God forbid!) forment?
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -The Lord Jesus

The Saviour is made of elements which are distinct from one another yet He is not two Persons. God forbid! For both natures are one by the combination. -St. Gregory Nazianzen

Offline minasoliman

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #191 on: October 13, 2012, 10:26:10 AM »
The article made some typos...very clumsy [Muslim] reporters...this is the list:

His Grace Bishop Rafael, General Bishop for Central Cairo and Assistant to His Grace Bishop Moussa, General Bishop of the Youth
His Grace Bishop Tawadros, General Bishop to el Beheira and Assistant to His Emminence Metropolitan Bakhomious
His Very Reverence Fr. Rafael Ava Mina, famous monk-priest disciple of HH the late great saint Pope Kyrillos VI
His Very Reverence Fr. Bakhomious el-Souriany
His Very Reverence Fr. Seraphim el Souriany

from http://www.copticworld.org/articles/1306/

May the Lord continue to guide the process in peace and righteousness. Amen! Lord have mercy!

PS I think it's obvious who the final 3 will most probably be given the brief bio I gave.  I am not sure anyone knows anything about the Monk-Hegumens from the Syrian Monastery


HG Bishop Rafael wanted to withdraw, and yet did not do so officially, with many bishops and especially HG Bishop Moussa pleading with him not to withdraw:

http://www.copticworld.org/articles/1305/
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 10:27:32 AM by minasoliman »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #192 on: October 13, 2012, 11:47:23 AM »
Just wanted to share a lecture that captured me by HG Bishop Rafael.  Personally, as I have shared before that I would rather 3 monks be of the finalists.  Nevertheless, the Orthodoxy of His Grace satisfies me to no end, that I may be relieved if someone like him becomes our next Pope.  This is a Resurrection lecture, which I know any Orthodox Christian here will enjoy, EO or OO:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnOdL9k8s0U&feature=relmfu
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TskKoXLQRnk&feature=relmfu
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbFwRU56g1I&feature=relmfu

HG Bishop Rafael was a physician before choosing the monastic lifestyle.  You can tell from his lecture how he incorporates medical analogies to the story of our salvation that Christ bestowed upon us.  If he doesn't become Pope, I would call for His Grace to become a diocesan bishop here in the US or Canada.  This continent will be the continent of Medical Diocesan bishops.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 12:35:25 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Stavro

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #194 on: October 13, 2012, 01:28:40 PM »
A total surprise to me. I would have never thought they would be able to remove Bishop Youaness or Bishop Bishoy. I pray both ambitious men do not destroy the church internally in retaliation. Youaness was the real danger. They still command significant influence by controlling the electorate body, and they can easily direct their vote by cutting out any candidate they are not able to cut a deal with.

The threat of schism was influential in eliminating both.

Anba Rapahel is amazing. He embraces all elements of Coptic Orthodox spirituality and in a time when our Church is endangered by Protestant influences, this is important. Yet, due to no fault of his own, his position as general bishop will cast serious doubts on his canonicity as a Pope.

As Mina wrote, we would love to have him in North America, we need him, but there are already many members of the empty dioceses lobbying for the man. He would probably prefer to stay in Egypt. I know, in Canada, any bishop will face immense problems from the priests who act and regard themselves as bishops.

If the altar lot is not rigged like in 1971, I pray that it would be a monk. He will be ordained and not merely transferred, will receive the gift of the Spirit and not rely on his reputation or human abilities. He will be canonical like Pope Cyril VI. He will not need to be a politician but will be aided by heaven.
In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)

Offline qawe

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #195 on: October 13, 2012, 07:48:40 PM »
How was the altar lot rigged?
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline Jonathan

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #196 on: October 13, 2012, 09:41:31 PM »
^If Bishop Tawadros is elected, will Fr. Athanasius and the like have a problem with it? Will a schism (God forbid!) forment?

I can't speak definitively for anyone but myself, but I would be very surprised now if there were any meaningful schism with any of these candidates. I think that Fr. Athanasius is more comfortable with a general bishop becoming Pope than I am. Many of us do not like the idea of transferring a general bishop, but are ok with these two candidates compared to the alternatives. Those who were ambitious, campaigning for the position, arguing that they should have it, have been removed. If either of these two bishops left are selected, at least they are not ambitious, have not sought it, have tried to escape it, and have been compelled to remain in consideration by the other bishops. The spirit of the canon is to avoid ambition. I'm not saying it's ok to start transferring bishops around, but the most important point is that ambition has been avoided. I very, very much hope that Abouna Rafael will be H.H. Pope Kyrollos VII soon.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #197 on: October 13, 2012, 10:47:52 PM »
^If Bishop Tawadros is elected, will Fr. Athanasius and the like have a problem with it? Will a schism (God forbid!) forment?

I can't speak definitively for anyone but myself, but I would be very surprised now if there were any meaningful schism with any of these candidates. I think that Fr. Athanasius is more comfortable with a general bishop becoming Pope than I am. Many of us do not like the idea of transferring a general bishop, but are ok with these two candidates compared to the alternatives. Those who were ambitious, campaigning for the position, arguing that they should have it, have been removed. If either of these two bishops left are selected, at least they are not ambitious, have not sought it, have tried to escape it, and have been compelled to remain in consideration by the other bishops. The spirit of the canon is to avoid ambition. I'm not saying it's ok to start transferring bishops around, but the most important point is that ambition has been avoided. I very, very much hope that Abouna Rafael will be H.H. Pope Kyrollos VII soon.
I was thinking along the lines of HH Pope Mina III ;-)
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #198 on: October 13, 2012, 11:20:22 PM »
Press Conference of His Eminence Metropolitan Bakhomious, the locum tenens of the Coptic Church, with the candidates committee, on the choice of the final five candidates, with english subtitles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MJ9XRTsOwI&feature=channel&list=UL
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline qawe

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #199 on: October 14, 2012, 07:30:18 AM »
Newspapers describe Anba Rofael as progressive.  What do they mean?
That description doesn't sound like that of someone "super-Orthodox".
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline Jonathan

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #200 on: October 14, 2012, 07:36:58 AM »
Newspapers describe Anba Rofael as progressive.  What do they mean?
That description doesn't sound like that of someone "super-Orthodox".

H.g. Is orthodox. Told the priests here they're protestants, and if their sermons aren't based in and consistent with the fathers, they're not preaching orthodoxy. Didn't pull any punches or go for popularity. Papers probably just mean caring for youth, using technology, unimportant things since they don't know how to judge the things that matter in a bishop

Offline Severian

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #201 on: October 14, 2012, 12:04:27 PM »
^Glad to hear this.
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -The Lord Jesus

The Saviour is made of elements which are distinct from one another yet He is not two Persons. God forbid! For both natures are one by the combination. -St. Gregory Nazianzen

Offline ReturnOrthodoxy

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #202 on: October 14, 2012, 01:37:58 PM »
Quote
I very, very much hope that Abouna Rafael will be H.H. Pope Kyrollos VII soon.

Amen!

And yes, the best thing about HGB Rofail is that he is indeed Orthodox. I don't know how he can do it since for so long, patristics were left aside. His greatest thing (in my opinion) is that, unlike most Bishops and other high ranking hierarchs, he is patristically Orthodox.

I agree with Jonathan that, although I do not like the idea of general bishops becoming patriarchs, the removal of those who were ambitiously trying to fullfil a demonic desire have been removed. So HGB Rofail amd HGB Tawadros are both OK in my books. As for who I would like, I would personally love Father Rofail!

Does anyone know why they are doing an altar ballot? The Altar ballot was supposed to be only in the event of a tie... sort of like a tie breaker. If I remember correctly, in recent history it was used in Pope Kyrollos VI's case because of draw, and another time in Anba Shenouda's case (I may be wrong here, so please correct). Is it going to become a normal thing now? In my opinion, I don't like the altar ballot because it leaves out the ide of synergy between God and man, making the election little more than a lottery. There is no synergy between paper and God, but if a council of upright Bishops gathered together in synergy with God, a greater decision might be reached. I, personally, see no reason to resort to an altar ballot until there is a clear tie. We can use the God given intellect to make such decisions.

RO
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #203 on: October 14, 2012, 04:45:58 PM »
Quote
I very, very much hope that Abouna Rafael will be H.H. Pope Kyrollos VII soon.

Amen!

And yes, the best thing about HGB Rofail is that he is indeed Orthodox. I don't know how he can do it since for so long, patristics were left aside. His greatest thing (in my opinion) is that, unlike most Bishops and other high ranking hierarchs, he is patristically Orthodox.

I agree with Jonathan that, although I do not like the idea of general bishops becoming patriarchs, the removal of those who were ambitiously trying to fullfil a demonic desire have been removed. So HGB Rofail amd HGB Tawadros are both OK in my books. As for who I would like, I would personally love Father Rofail!

Does anyone know why they are doing an altar ballot? The Altar ballot was supposed to be only in the event of a tie... sort of like a tie breaker. If I remember correctly, in recent history it was used in Pope Kyrollos VI's case because of draw, and another time in Anba Shenouda's case (I may be wrong here, so please correct). Is it going to become a normal thing now? In my opinion, I don't like the altar ballot because it leaves out the ide of synergy between God and man, making the election little more than a lottery. There is no synergy between paper and God, but if a council of upright Bishops gathered together in synergy with God, a greater decision might be reached. I, personally, see no reason to resort to an altar ballot until there is a clear tie. We can use the God given intellect to make such decisions.

RO

No, that's how it's been since 1957.  Those who get the three highest votes will supposedly get a chance to be chosen to be the next pope.  You can be in third place of the voting (even if only 10 people voted for you that put you to third place let's say), and you can still get a chance of being the Pope.  From what I understand, HH Pope Shenouda was second place in the voting.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #204 on: October 14, 2012, 04:55:15 PM »
H.g. Is orthodox. Told the priests here they're protestants, and if their sermons aren't based in and consistent with the fathers, they're not preaching orthodoxy. Didn't pull any punches or go for popularity.

 ;D I hope he will serve with the episcopal staff in one hand and a winnowing fan in the other, purging the threashing-floor of non-Orthodox theology and praxis.

Offline mabsoota

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #205 on: October 14, 2012, 05:00:50 PM »
i think whoever will serve will be doing God's will, so will help us out theologically and in other ways.
thank God for His grace so far; now we continue with more prayer and fasting.
 :)
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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #206 on: October 14, 2012, 05:03:56 PM »
return orthodoxy, who is this in your new avatar?
Fr. Matta Al-Maskeen.
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -The Lord Jesus

The Saviour is made of elements which are distinct from one another yet He is not two Persons. God forbid! For both natures are one by the combination. -St. Gregory Nazianzen

Offline mabsoota

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #207 on: October 14, 2012, 05:13:36 PM »
ah, thanks.
i thought i had seen him somewhere before.
may his prayers be with us, and those of our dear abba shenouda 3rd and abba kyrillos 6th.

Offline qawe

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #208 on: October 15, 2012, 06:03:34 AM »
So it's great that the enthroned diocene bishops have been removed, and that three canonically proper candidates have been left. If only Anba Rafael would make good on H.G.'s intention to withdraw now that it is not necessary to prevent the ambition of Anba Pishoi, Anba Youannis, and Anba Paphnoutius

I don't think he can withdraw even if he wants to.
Doesn't there have to be 5-7 candidates for the election; this would leave only 4 candidates?
If he did withdraw, wouldn't they have to pick another name for the election.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 06:03:51 AM by qawe »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Jonathan

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #209 on: October 15, 2012, 08:22:02 AM »
So it's great that the enthroned diocene bishops have been removed, and that three canonically proper candidates have been left. If only Anba Rafael would make good on H.G.'s intention to withdraw now that it is not necessary to prevent the ambition of Anba Pishoi, Anba Youannis, and Anba Paphnoutius

I don't think he can withdraw even if he wants to.
Doesn't there have to be 5-7 candidates for the election; this would leave only 4 candidates?
If he did withdraw, wouldn't they have to pick another name for the election.

Who knows? They're made up rules. There's no underlying principle or spirituality behind them, so who's to say what they would do? The rules said they'd narrow it down to 5-7. They didn't say what would happen if someone left for any reason after that.  The process of selecting a Pope is so far from proper... there's no reason they should have to pick 5-7, or have to have an altar lot. Really, there's no reason the people picking should have anything to do with the selection if we were doing things properly.

Offline ReturnOrthodoxy

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #210 on: October 15, 2012, 09:56:50 AM »
^^ I like this guy^^^
Pre-Passion: Let's eat, Jesus!
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Offline qawe

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #211 on: October 15, 2012, 06:30:56 PM »
So it's great that the enthroned diocene bishops have been removed, and that three canonically proper candidates have been left. If only Anba Rafael would make good on H.G.'s intention to withdraw now that it is not necessary to prevent the ambition of Anba Pishoi, Anba Youannis, and Anba Paphnoutius

I don't think he can withdraw even if he wants to.
Doesn't there have to be 5-7 candidates for the election; this would leave only 4 candidates?
If he did withdraw, wouldn't they have to pick another name for the election.

Who knows? They're made up rules. There's no underlying principle or spirituality behind them, so who's to say what they would do? The rules said they'd narrow it down to 5-7. They didn't say what would happen if someone left for any reason after that.  The process of selecting a Pope is so far from proper... there's no reason they should have to pick 5-7, or have to have an altar lot. Really, there's no reason the people picking should have anything to do with the selection if we were doing things properly.

Good point!
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline qawe

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #212 on: October 16, 2012, 12:52:16 AM »
"Higoumen Rouphaïl Afa Mina was born in Cairo in 1942. He got a BA in Law in 1964. He joined the Mari Mina monastery in 1969, where he became a pupil of late Pope Kyrillos VI, who was from the same monastery. Author of 25 books about the lives of saints and martyrs, as well as on spirituality and rituals, he is known as the "beloved monk" and is backed strongly by one of Pope Shenouda's secretaries, Bishop Ermia, head of Saint Mark's TV channel, which is the official channel of the Coptic Orthodox Church."

Source: http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Egypt's-Coptic-Orthodox-Church-quickly-chooses-date-for-the-election-of-Shenouda-III's-successor-26092.html

I guess this means that HE Met. Bishoy is supporting Abouna Rafael.  Could it be because he is the oldest candidate, which would allow Met. Bishoy/supporters another shot at the papacy sooner rather than later?
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline ReturnOrthodoxy

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #213 on: October 16, 2012, 01:03:30 AM »
Pope Kyrollos, being a true Orthodox Patriarch would have violently opposed the folly that is occuring within the church today. He was very outspoken against any foolish acts on the part of the clergy, openly rebuking the Abbot of El-Baramos, telling "Patriarch" Youannis that he was not the true patriarch, but still a Metropolitan and rebuking anyone who disagreed with the truth. Abouna Rofail, a disciple of Pope Kyrollos will, God willing, have many of those same qualities of his father, and will defend the faith against any of those who bring down Orthodoxy. If he becomes patriarch, he should put any instruments of the devil back into their place before they can do anything to further harm the church.

When a murder plot was conspired against Pope Kyrollos by some of his metropolitans, they all paid an extremely high price. The cost of fooling around with the Orthodox church which Christ paid for with his blood is great.

HGB Ermia was a monk in St. Mina's monastery where Fr. Rofail is a monk, and a very esteemed one at that! Anba Ermia was the secretary to HGB Mina Ava Mina when he was still in the monastery, and as such, he certainly feels a special bond to both HH Pope Kyrollos, and Fr. Rofail.

As long as there is Orthodox blood flowing in the veins of the members of the church, Met. Bishoy's feet will never walk on the Patriarchal throne, nor will anyone of his men. There were anti-popes seated in the Coptic church many times, and each time, the congregation rejected them unanimously. If Met. Bishoy were even to sit on the throne, he would be the patriarch of 5 or 10 people. The rest, maintaining their Orthodox would have already elected someone else.

Met. Bishoy is not a threat. Never has been, never will be. All it takes is a few people with an education to trump him, and reveal his true intentions.

RO
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Offline qawe

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #214 on: October 16, 2012, 06:25:34 AM »
Pope Kyrollos, being a true Orthodox Patriarch would have violently opposed the folly that is occuring within the church today. He was very outspoken against any foolish acts on the part of the clergy, openly rebuking the Abbot of El-Baramos, telling "Patriarch" Youannis that he was not the true patriarch, but still a Metropolitan and rebuking anyone who disagreed with the truth. Abouna Rofail, a disciple of Pope Kyrollos will, God willing, have many of those same qualities of his father, and will defend the faith against any of those who bring down Orthodoxy. If he becomes patriarch, he should put any instruments of the devil back into their place before they can do anything to further harm the church.

When a murder plot was conspired against Pope Kyrollos by some of his metropolitans, they all paid an extremely high price. The cost of fooling around with the Orthodox church which Christ paid for with his blood is great.

HGB Ermia was a monk in St. Mina's monastery where Fr. Rofail is a monk, and a very esteemed one at that! Anba Ermia was the secretary to HGB Mina Ava Mina when he was still in the monastery, and as such, he certainly feels a special bond to both HH Pope Kyrollos, and Fr. Rofail.

As long as there is Orthodox blood flowing in the veins of the members of the church, Met. Bishoy's feet will never walk on the Patriarchal throne, nor will anyone of his men. There were anti-popes seated in the Coptic church many times, and each time, the congregation rejected them unanimously. If Met. Bishoy were even to sit on the throne, he would be the patriarch of 5 or 10 people. The rest, maintaining their Orthodox would have already elected someone else.

Met. Bishoy is not a threat. Never has been, never will be. All it takes is a few people with an education to trump him, and reveal his true intentions.

RO

Neshkor rabena!

So it's great that the enthroned diocene bishops have been removed, and that three canonically proper candidates have been left. If only Anba Rafael would make good on H.G.'s intention to withdraw now that it is not necessary to prevent the ambition of Anba Pishoi, Anba Youannis, and Anba Paphnoutius

I don't think he can withdraw even if he wants to.
Doesn't there have to be 5-7 candidates for the election; this would leave only 4 candidates?
If he did withdraw, wouldn't they have to pick another name for the election.

Who knows? They're made up rules. There's no underlying principle or spirituality behind them, so who's to say what they would do? The rules said they'd narrow it down to 5-7. They didn't say what would happen if someone left for any reason after that.  The process of selecting a Pope is so far from proper... there's no reason they should have to pick 5-7, or have to have an altar lot. Really, there's no reason the people picking should have anything to do with the selection if we were doing things properly.

Also, I guess, there's no procedure if there's a tie in the number of votes for the 3rd and 4th highest candidates.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 06:28:46 AM by qawe »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Severian

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #215 on: October 16, 2012, 04:28:24 PM »
What are the ages of the candidates, if anybody knows?
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -The Lord Jesus

The Saviour is made of elements which are distinct from one another yet He is not two Persons. God forbid! For both natures are one by the combination. -St. Gregory Nazianzen

Offline lord doog

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #216 on: October 16, 2012, 06:15:14 PM »
The timeline for choosing the new pope has been moved up a month. Elections for the three finalists will be on October 29 with a period of fasting on October 22-24. The altar ballot will be on November 4 with a period of fasting from October 29 - November 2.

source
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Offline Severian

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #217 on: October 16, 2012, 07:24:23 PM »
What are the ages of the candidates, if anybody knows?
I found out:

Fr. Rafael Avamina- 70
H.G. Bishop Tawadros- 60
H.G. Bishop Rafael- 54
Fr. Pachomious Alsouriany- 49
Fr. Seraphim Alsouriany- 53

Source
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 07:39:11 PM by Severian »
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -The Lord Jesus

The Saviour is made of elements which are distinct from one another yet He is not two Persons. God forbid! For both natures are one by the combination. -St. Gregory Nazianzen

Offline biro

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Offline Severian

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #219 on: October 17, 2012, 02:48:58 PM »
Pictures of the candidates:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -The Lord Jesus

The Saviour is made of elements which are distinct from one another yet He is not two Persons. God forbid! For both natures are one by the combination. -St. Gregory Nazianzen

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #220 on: October 18, 2012, 09:04:34 AM »
Met. Bishoy is not in the run for the papacy?  :(
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Offline Severian

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #221 on: October 18, 2012, 10:49:47 AM »
Met. Bishoy is not in the run for the papacy?  :(
Not anymore, thank God!
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -The Lord Jesus

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Offline dzheremi

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #222 on: October 18, 2012, 12:03:36 PM »
Hahaha. Nobody likes Met. Bishoy. My friends from church all said the same thing: Thank God it won't be Met. Bishoy!  :-[ I kinda feel bad for the guy, even though I definitely wouldn't want him in that position, either.

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #223 on: October 18, 2012, 01:20:34 PM »
My knowledge of the administration/current events of the Coptic Church is pretty spotty. Does anyone know of a source that gives bios for any/all of the candidates?
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord
« Reply #224 on: October 18, 2012, 01:28:48 PM »
Pictures of the candidates:

The two on the top row should be disqualified for smiling in a picture!