OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 14, 2014, 10:19:09 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord  (Read 23789 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Stavro
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,160



« Reply #135 on: May 09, 2012, 12:12:59 PM »

Elimination of bishops of dioceses is being promoted by others candidates, the general bishops and their supporters, who cite the canons to eliminate their strong rivals. They are aided by the fact that at the time the canons were written, there was no ridiculous rank called "General bishop" and every bishop had a diocese.

When Anba Youssef writes about the subject, he avoids mentioning that the general bishop is also not eligible to avoid embarassing the memory of the departed Pope, who was a bishop before his appointment to Papacy. Whether he was a general or dioscese bisop is another story. 


Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #136 on: May 09, 2012, 02:42:29 PM »

Elimination of bishops of dioceses is being promoted by others candidates, the general bishops and their supporters, who cite the canons to eliminate their strong rivals. They are aided by the fact that at the time the canons were written, there was no ridiculous rank called "General bishop" and every bishop had a diocese.

When Anba Youssef writes about the subject, he avoids mentioning that the general bishop is also not eligible to avoid embarassing the memory of the departed Pope, who was a bishop before his appointment to Papacy. Whether he was a general or dioscese bisop is another story. 



If we demote the general bishops to khor-episcopi, I think we'll be alright. lol
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Stavro
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,160



« Reply #137 on: May 11, 2012, 01:17:24 PM »

Or we abolish this general bishop rank started by H.H. Pope Shenouda and ordain khori episcopos if there is a need to.
 
The rank of general bishop was initiated by the Pope to gain majority in the Holy Synod over the heavy weight established bishops who opposed the Pope. The general bishop is really not a bishop, has no jurisdiction over any congregation or church, cannot deal in financial matters to the "place" he is assigned to and is totally helpless when it comes to ordinations as he has no such power. He cannot even ordain his priests.

Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #138 on: May 11, 2012, 01:42:08 PM »

Or we abolish this general bishop rank started by H.H. Pope Shenouda and ordain khori episcopos if there is a need to.
 
The rank of general bishop was initiated by the Pope to gain majority in the Holy Synod over the heavy weight established bishops who opposed the Pope. The general bishop is really not a bishop, has no jurisdiction over any congregation or church, cannot deal in financial matters to the "place" he is assigned to and is totally helpless when it comes to ordinations as he has no such power. He cannot even ordain his priests.

Not necessarily.  HH Pope Shenouda did multiply the office of general bishop by quite an unnecessary number, I would agree, but the general bishopric actually started with HH Pope Kyrillos VI.  Granted, +HHPK did not ordain general bishops without a title, such as the bishop of higher education, the bishop of youth, etc.  +HHPS on the other hand ordained many general bishops without a title.  Either way, with or without, I agree with you that I am against this position as well.  A diocesan bishop should be the one who appoints specific committed members of the Church for youth, education, etc. in the ranks lower than bishop, such as khor episcopi, or even the deaconate.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Stavro
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,160



« Reply #139 on: May 11, 2012, 02:24:13 PM »

Quote
A diocesan bishop should be the one who appoints specific committed members of the Church for youth, education, etc. in the ranks lower than bishop, such as khor episcopi, or even the deaconate.

True. I agree.

Quote
I would agree, but the general bishopric actually started with HH Pope Kyrillos VI.  Granted, +HHPK did not ordain general bishops without a title, such as the bishop of higher education, the bishop of youth, etc.

An episcopate is not necessarily defined by geographic boundaries, and H.H. Pope Kyrillos gave the ordained bishops full authority over their episcopate. The general bishop does not have such authority. Sometimes, a general bishop is doing all the work of a bishop but is deprived of the authority as he has to refer to the Pope in every decision. 

Anba Antonius Marcos, for example, has been serving for 40 years in Africa, and is still a general bishop, unable to choose his priests and deacons and he gets priests sent to him to serve with him who know that he has no authority over them.

I also understand the motive for the general bishops to climb the throne of Papacy. They do not know what happens to them with the new Pope.     
Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #140 on: May 30, 2012, 06:26:14 PM »

A preliminary list has been released:

Diocesan bishops:
Metropolitan Bishoy of Damietta diocese
Bishop Kyrillos of Milan diocese
Bishop Paphnutios of Samalout diocese

General bishops:
Bishop Youannis, general bishop under the Pope serving as secretary of the Synod
Bishop Rafael, general bishop under the Pope serving parts of Cairo
Bishop Tawadros, general bishop under Metropolitan Bakhomious serving the diocese of el-Beheira
Bishop Boutros, general bishop under the Pope serving parts of Cairo

Hegumen priest monks (last name indicates the monastery they're from):
Fr. Rafael Ava Mina
Fr. Maximos El-Antony
Fr. Shenouda Ava Bishoy
Fr. Anastasi El-Samuely
Fr. Bakhomious El-Souriany
Fr. Daniel El-Souriany
Fr. Seraphim El-Souriany
Fr. Bishoy Ava Paula
Fr. Sawiris Ava Paula
Fr. Pigol Ava Paula

Source: http://davidbebawy.com/2012/05/30/preliminary-list-of-papal-candidates/

These names will be published on all major Egyptian media sources for any critisms or praises from the public. From this list, a final list of 5-9 candidates will be chosen by the Nominating Committee.

Recently also HG Bishop Serapion of California and Hawaii and the priests of his diocese have released a document disapproving of diocesan bishops to accept the candidacy of the Papacy, citing many ancient and recent canons, as late as 1865, condemning any diocesan bishop to excommunication for any bishop who even tried.

Source: http://www.lacopts.org/sites/default/files/English%20Statement%20of%20the%20Clergy%20of%20the%20Diocese%20of%20Los%20Angeles.pdf

HG Bishop Serapion is also a member of the nominating committee and may influence at the very least the removal of the 3 diocesan bishops in the list.

May the Lord guide this process in peace so that we may be provided for a righteous shephard of the our holy Coptic Orthodox Church.  Amen! Lord have mercy!
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,501


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #141 on: May 31, 2012, 02:57:53 PM »

Lord have mercy!
it is a difficult time and we pray for God to bring unity and peace and love among the Christians and to still the storms of argument and dissention.
Logged
Stavro
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,160



« Reply #142 on: May 31, 2012, 11:41:21 PM »

Quote
Fr. Rafael Ava Mina

The close disciple of H.H. Pope Kyrillos VI. He is to Pope Kyrillos what Elisha was to Elijah.

Quote
These names will be published on all major Egyptian media sources for any criticisms or praises from the public. From this list, a final list of 5-9 candidates will be chosen by the Nominating Committee.

I think the 1957 bylaws indicate 5-7 candidates in the final round. It is not clear what the criteria of selection is. 
Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #143 on: June 01, 2012, 12:21:53 AM »


May the Lord guide this process in peace so that we may be provided for a righteous shephard of the our holy Coptic Orthodox Church.  Amen! Lord have mercy!


Continued prayers....  Cry  Amen! Lord have mercy!
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #144 on: July 28, 2012, 02:50:34 PM »

Just an update, what the California diocese has started lead to more bishops publicly supporting the idea that a diocesan bishop should not be Pope of Alexandria due to the ancient canons. Even the British Orthodox Church lead a public support of the the California diocese's declaration:

http://britishorthodox.org/3414/british-orthodox-synod-issues-statement-regarding-the-papal-election/

Quote
The Synod, finding itself in complete agreement with the explanation of the canons and traditions of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate found in the statement issued by the Diocese of Los Angeles, wishes to express its own view that the canons and traditions lead us to understand that the translation of a diocesan bishop to the Patriarchate of Alexandria should be avoided outside of the most serious circumstances, and that the present election does not represent such a serious circumstance.
 It is therefore our humble and respectful opinion that a diocesan bishop should not be considered for election to the Patriarchate of Alexandria at this time.

This lead to His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy replying in condemnation to such actions by the dioceses claiming that such actions would lead to condemning the Coptic Church's Apostolic lineage in the 20th Century, as well as using some historical examples and opinions from the late HH Pope Shenouda III:

http://www.metroplit-bishoy.org/files/eng%20new%20patriarcal%20nomination.PDF

Quote
If we unknowingly apply--as some do today--the excommunications of the synod of 1873, on those metropolitans and bishops, this would lead us to a catastrophe for our church, because all those metropolitans fall under this excommunication (which we have already shown as null and void), and withthem would be Pope Youannis XIX and all bishops and metropolitans whom he ordained thereafter, and likewise Pope Yusab and al bishops and metropolitans whom he ordained, etc... until we reach the ordination of Pope Cyril VI where we find that only Anba Athanasius Metropolitan of Bahnasa and Beni-Sweif remains who was ordained by Pope Cyril V, and yet he is unable to officiate the ordination of Pope Cyril Vi solo according to the canons of the church... . Furthermore, by participating in the ordination of Pope Youanni XIX he also would be under the excommunication of the synod of 1873; excommunications which we do not confess or admit for all successive generations for all the reasons above-mentioned.  We likewise do not accept it for the current conditions which would lead to--God forbid--breaking the chain of apostolic succession in our church.

This lead to a rebuttal and refutations by Their Graces Bishop Youssef of the Southern US and Bishop Serapion of California, mostly in Arabic.  A summary of HG Bishop Youssef's rebuttals in English, which also included statements from HH the late Pope Shenouda III and historical precedants, can be found here:

http://www.lacopts.org/sites/default/files/canadioceseanbishopbenominatedpope_en.pdf

Quote
We also note that Patriarchs were chosen from a variety of classes of people, for example, Patriarchs were chosen from among monks, lay persons, married persons, tradesmen, foreigners, theologians etc.. , but never from among diocesan bishops for over 19 centuries, in spite of the presence of giants among the bishops like Abba Severus of Ashmunein, Abba Sarbamon the veiled (Abu Tarha) and Abba Abraam bishop of Fayium and others. We can find no reason for this other than the adherence of the fathers and their strict observance of the ecclesiastical canons and the Apostolic admonitions.

The Arabic articles by the US bishops can be read here:
http://www.lacopts.org/sites/default/files/canadioceseanbishopbenominatedpope_ar.pdf
http://lacopts.org/sites/default/files/Arabic%20Research%20-%20Bishop%20Serapion.pdf

An English translation is promised soon for these articles.

This seems to have lead to an interesting development here in North America.  A group of anonymous servants and clergy in North America have developed a website giving the bios of the Papal candidates (which carry an obvious bias), supporting the US bishops condemnation of allowing diocesan bishops to be candidates for the Papacy, and boldly asking for autocephaly if the Coptic Church in fact selects a diocesan bishop to be Patriarch.

http://hope4cope.com/?page_id=94

Quote
To His Eminence Metropolitan Pachomius and Members of the Nominating Committee,

As Coptic Orthodox Christians who love our beloved Church and are obedient to Her teachings expressed through the Holy Scriptures and the Holy Tradition of the Fathers, Councils and Canons of the Church, we pray that the Lord would maintain the unity and integrity of His Church through your voices, by eliminating the bishops and metropolitans from the pool of electable candidates for the Patriarchal election. As Orthodox Christians who maintain that man is saved through the synergy of God’s grace and man’s will, should the nominating committee fail to remove the metropolitans and bishops from the pool of electable candidates for patriarch, we as a Coptic people plan to exercise our will upon the church and call for an autocephalous Coptic Orthodox Church in North America, which is capable of governing Herself with integrity according to the canons, traditions and patristic spirit of our beloved Orthodoxy, independent from the mother Church in Egypt.

Please find below a running list of Coptic Orthodox Christian clergy and laity, which have electronically signed, supporting this movement.

May the Lord grant wisdom and strength to all of you, as we maintain hope for the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchal Election and the continued unity of our beloved Church.

This has become quite a contentious period for the Coptic Church and fears of schism seem to surface because of these elections.  Please pray for the Coptic Church that the Lord may grant a fitting solution and a shepherd to unite all these factions and solve the problems that seem to bring a lot of harm.

God bless.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 03:07:54 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,501


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #145 on: July 28, 2012, 05:46:01 PM »

may the Lord have mercy and not permit any schism.
Logged
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #146 on: July 28, 2012, 06:01:08 PM »

Could this lead to a cessation of communion with our sister OO Churches?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 06:20:02 PM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #147 on: July 29, 2012, 02:32:50 AM »

Could this lead to a cessation of communion with our sister OO Churches?
Not sure...I don't know how serious this "call for autocephaly" can be.  Personally, I support the call to remove bishops and metropolitans from the list of candidates, but not to the extent of a call for autocephaly.  That may lead to a North American schism in and of itself, probably similar to the Indian/Syrian situation.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #148 on: July 29, 2012, 02:38:52 AM »

Could this lead to a cessation of communion with our sister OO Churches?

?
Not to underestimate the pain an internal split would cause the Copts, but why do you think it would impact the relationship of the Coptic Church (or the relationship of two parts of the Coptic Church) to other OO churches? Is the relationship of the Coptic Church to the rest of the OO communion somehow part of the debate about who should be the next Pope?
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #149 on: July 29, 2012, 10:25:47 AM »

Could this lead to a cessation of communion with our sister OO Churches?
Not sure...I don't know how serious this "call for autocephaly" can be.  Personally, I support the call to remove bishops and metropolitans from the list of candidates, but not to the extent of a call for autocephaly.  That may lead to a North American schism in and of itself, probably similar to the Indian/Syrian situation.
I really hope a candidate is chosen that will sufficiently satisfy the desire of everyone, without requiring a schism of any sort. If, God forbid, this occurs, with which faction would the BOC stay in Communion with?

Could this lead to a cessation of communion with our sister OO Churches?

?
Not to underestimate the pain an internal split would cause the Copts, but why do you think it would impact the relationship of the Coptic Church (or the relationship of two parts of the Coptic Church) to other OO churches? Is the relationship of the Coptic Church to the rest of the OO communion somehow part of the debate about who should be the next Pope?
Hopefully not, but we OOs are divided enough, so the last thing we need is a Schism within the Coptic Church.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 10:26:08 AM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #150 on: July 29, 2012, 12:04:43 PM »

I don't know too much about Coptic Church politics, but I would like to point out that His Holiness Pope Shenouda served as a bishop prior to being elected pope. I know it's against the canons that OO still take very seriously (we really don't do this in the EOC anymore) and people did protest His Holiness' election, but it went through and he governed the Coptic Church for 40 years.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 12:05:19 PM by Benjamin the Red » Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,401


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #151 on: July 29, 2012, 01:22:56 PM »

I don't know too much about Coptic Church politics, but I would like to point out that His Holiness Pope Shenouda served as a bishop prior to being elected pope. I know it's against the canons that OO still take very seriously (we really don't do this in the EOC anymore) and people did protest His Holiness' election, but it went through and he governed the Coptic Church for 40 years.
He was a bishop but he was never enthroned as the head of a diocese. A so called "general bishop" if you will.
Logged
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,163


« Reply #152 on: July 29, 2012, 01:35:19 PM »

I thought he had been "Bishop of Education" or something like that? Anyway, the whole "General Bishop" thing is weird to me. I love Bp. Moussa as much as anybody, but I don't understand how someone can be "Bishop of Youth Affairs" or whatever his title is. I thought that if you were a bishop, it meant you presided over a particular diocese, not some abstract cause or subgroup within the Church as a whole. If that's not the case (anymore), then how can we defend the idea that it is wrong for a bishop to be elevated to the Papacy, if they aren't all in fact tied to a diocese?

When did the whole general bishop thing start, anyway? Is there apostolic precedent for it? Maybe I just don't understand it properly. I would appreciate some education on this issue, please.
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,570



« Reply #153 on: July 29, 2012, 01:54:34 PM »

I thought he had been "Bishop of Education" or something like that? Anyway, the whole "General Bishop" thing is weird to me. I love Bp. Moussa as much as anybody, but I don't understand how someone can be "Bishop of Youth Affairs" or whatever his title is. I thought that if you were a bishop, it meant you presided over a particular diocese, not some abstract cause or subgroup within the Church as a whole. If that's not the case (anymore), then how can we defend the idea that it is wrong for a bishop to be elevated to the Papacy, if they aren't all in fact tied to a diocese?

When did the whole general bishop thing start, anyway? Is there apostolic precedent for it? Maybe I just don't understand it properly. I would appreciate some education on this issue, please.
IIRC, Pope Kirillos was the one who started this, supposedly because he had a surplus of qualified episcopal candidates (educated and what not) but a shortage of sees.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #154 on: July 29, 2012, 02:00:16 PM »

I don't know too much about Coptic Church politics, but I would like to point out that His Holiness Pope Shenouda served as a bishop prior to being elected pope. I know it's against the canons that OO still take very seriously (we really don't do this in the EOC anymore) and people did protest His Holiness' election, but it went through and he governed the Coptic Church for 40 years.
HH was a bishop for social services, or a general bishop.  There's some disagreement as to what a "general bishop" is since it has no precedent in the past.  While the jobs of a general bishop is similar to a chorepiscopos, a general bishop still has full membership of the Synod.  HH Pope Kyrillos VI (+HHPKVI), predecessor to HH Pope Shenouda III (+HHPSIII), started the role of a general bishop for social services.  At some point, some people see social services as equivalent to a diocese.  +HHPSIII (as Bishop Shenouda) was quite irate at +HHPKVI for designating another bishop as bishop of higher education as interfering with his "diocese of education".  In addition, it seems that +HHPSIII as a layman wrote against HH Pope Yousab mentioning how when the church broke this particular canon, there was a subsequent "26 years of darkness and corruption."

In any case, +HHPSIII seems to have changed his mind, perhaps seeing that his bishopric was not a diocesan bishopric anymore.  In addition, under his administration, he multiplied the office of general bishops partially for the purpose of gaining power in the Synod, which in his early days in the throne were not favorable for him.

Now +HHPSIII lead the church well, but his mistake seems to be not solving this canonicity issue in due time that he also had a problem with before being a monk.  His other mistake is the high number of "aimless" general bishops in the synod who seem to be useless.  On top of this, we are having a patristic revival in the Coptic church, and more of her members are educated than ever before.  There is a precedent indeed that the few times bishops became popes (only on the 20th century) have been dark times for the Coptic church.

Personally, because of the implication of being married to a diocese, I agree that there should be no bishop who should be pope. That doesn't take away the fact that +HHPSIII has done more good for the church, despite any drawbacks he may have had.  St Gregory Nazienzen was a great theologian and saint of the church, but his actions to move from one diocese to another was not without harsh criticism, and lead him to resign from his office, which was another cause of admiration for him, so that he avoided more trouble for the church.  I think it's pretty clear there is a growing number in the Coptic church that are not joking around about sticking with this particular canon, and for the sake of the peace of the church, I hope these candidates who are are bishops take a page from St Gregory and step down.

And I hope whoever the new pope would be to get rid of the office of general bishop or clarify then as chorepiscopos.  I also am against bishops of social services.  I believe these are the functions of deacons and archdeacons.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 02:04:49 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #155 on: July 29, 2012, 02:07:21 PM »

Also check this website out:

canon15.nicaea.ca

This represents the churches of Canada, and they included many articles in history to support this principle.  I also understand a Coptic priest in Australia also supports the California diocese move.  This is no joke.  The Coptic church worldwide seems to be getting quite vocal.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 02:08:15 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,163


« Reply #156 on: July 29, 2012, 02:08:20 PM »

I thought he had been "Bishop of Education" or something like that? Anyway, the whole "General Bishop" thing is weird to me. I love Bp. Moussa as much as anybody, but I don't understand how someone can be "Bishop of Youth Affairs" or whatever his title is. I thought that if you were a bishop, it meant you presided over a particular diocese, not some abstract cause or subgroup within the Church as a whole. If that's not the case (anymore), then how can we defend the idea that it is wrong for a bishop to be elevated to the Papacy, if they aren't all in fact tied to a diocese?

When did the whole general bishop thing start, anyway? Is there apostolic precedent for it? Maybe I just don't understand it properly. I would appreciate some education on this issue, please.
IIRC, Pope Kirillos was the one who started this, supposedly because he had a surplus of qualified episcopal candidates (educated and what not) but a shortage of sees.

Thanks, Isa. I didn't think it was an old practice, but I didn't know exactly when/why it started.
Logged

minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #157 on: July 29, 2012, 03:11:31 PM »

dzheremi,

There is a disagreement as to who REALLY started the general bishop title, as you can see with Stavro's earlier post here:

Quote
A diocesan bishop should be the one who appoints specific committed members of the Church for youth, education, etc. in the ranks lower than bishop, such as khor episcopi, or even the deaconate.

True. I agree.

Quote
I would agree, but the general bishopric actually started with HH Pope Kyrillos VI.  Granted, +HHPK did not ordain general bishops without a title, such as the bishop of higher education, the bishop of youth, etc.

An episcopate is not necessarily defined by geographic boundaries, and H.H. Pope Kyrillos gave the ordained bishops full authority over their episcopate. The general bishop does not have such authority. Sometimes, a general bishop is doing all the work of a bishop but is deprived of the authority as he has to refer to the Pope in every decision. 

Anba Antonius Marcos, for example, has been serving for 40 years in Africa, and is still a general bishop, unable to choose his priests and deacons and he gets priests sent to him to serve with him who know that he has no authority over them.

I also understand the motive for the general bishops to climb the throne of Papacy. They do not know what happens to them with the new Pope.     

I think it's important to know that even if one's diocese is a social service, I wonder can one ordain his own priests and deacons in this social service?  I think the title of general bishops if not started by His Holiness Pope St. Kyrillos, certainly was evolved from him into bishops without either dioceses or social services, but literally bishops that belong to the Pope or Metropolitans.

Some have speculated, and this is only a speculation, that HH Pope St. Kyrillos ordained those persons to be general bishops not necessarily based on a need for specific social services, but based on HH's knowledge of certain peoples' ambitions to the papacy, and how he wished to disqualify them from the papacy by such ordinations, along with giving them a job they're good at.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 03:14:29 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #158 on: July 29, 2012, 03:17:15 PM »

Also check this website out:

canon15.nicaea.ca

This represents the churches of Canada, and they included many articles in history to support this principle.  I also understand a Coptic priest in Australia also supports the California diocese move.  This is no joke.  The Coptic church worldwide seems to be getting quite vocal.
Actually, even before this controversy started I was hoping the new Patriarch would be from a Monastic community. Do you think these individuals would really commit schism if a Diocesan Bishop were chosen?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 03:17:45 PM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #159 on: July 29, 2012, 03:23:24 PM »

Also check this website out:

canon15.nicaea.ca

This represents the churches of Canada, and they included many articles in history to support this principle.  I also understand a Coptic priest in Australia also supports the California diocese move.  This is no joke.  The Coptic church worldwide seems to be getting quite vocal.
Actually, even before this controversy started I was hoping the new Patriarch would be from a Monastic community. Do you think these individuals would really commit schism if a Diocesan Bishop were chosen?
I don't know how serious this "call for autocephaly" is.  I do not like it personally, even if it gets to the extent that the a bishop in fact became our next patriarch.  I always believe to avoid schisms even at parish level as much as possible and work from the grass roots to fight whatever is wrong with the church.

If you read the FAQs if the hope4cope website, they write this:

Quote
The servants behind this website would like to assure all who are considering signing the letter that a few members of the Holy Synod have been informed of the plans for this website, its mission, and its objective. These members, whose names shall remain protected for the same reasons mentioned above, have asked to be kept informed of the results of our efforts. In light of their neutrality and interest, this website is a lawful and legitimate means for the congregation of North America to express their views.

The servants of this website give their unconditional promise never to share the personal information of those who choose to sign the letter with anyone except for the interested members of the Holy Synod.

It is not the intention of the creators of this website to coerce anyone into signing this online petition but rather we encourage that thought be placed into the final decision, as with any other expression of free will.

http://hope4cope.com/?page_id=308
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #160 on: July 29, 2012, 03:28:43 PM »

I have to commend the Copts on taking this canon so seriously. The Church is plagued by so many problems - career bishops being one of them - which were already anticipated and dealt with quite adequately in the earliest centuries.
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #161 on: August 02, 2012, 07:44:03 PM »

HG Bishop Serapion's article has been translated, giving a comprehensive history of the tradition of not choosing diocesan bishops, and what happened when that tradition was broken:

http://www.lacopts.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Choosing-The-Patriarch-Lessons-from-the-History-of-the-Church-English.pdf

Quote
Strangely, the three patriarchs who were diocesan metropolitans were quite successful and accomplished many things as metropolitans. For this reason, they were chosen as patriarchs, but as patriarchs, they accomplished nothing.

...

For these reasons, we see that the Fathers of the Church prohibited the election of diocesan metropolitans and bishops to the See of St. Mark. They also prevented seeking help from the authorities to gain the priesthood. Support for this found in the decision of the Holy Synod headed by Pope Mikhail I in the eighth century and the decision of the Holy Synod of 1873.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 07:45:11 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
CoptoGeek
of Alexandria, the Christ-loving City
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,422



« Reply #162 on: August 03, 2012, 07:46:40 AM »

Why is it the Coptic Church alone tries to follow that canon?
Logged

"Be oppressed, rather than the oppressor. Be gentle, rather than zealous. Lay hold of goodness, rather than justice." -St. Isaac of Nineveh

“I returned to the Coptic Orthodox Church with affection, finding in her our tormented and broken history“. -Salama Moussa
Jonathan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 801


WWW
« Reply #163 on: August 03, 2012, 08:27:46 AM »

Why is it the Coptic Church alone tries to follow that canon?

The synod of the Patriarchate of Alexandria placed proclaimed that anyone IN THAT SEE who as a bishop seeks the papacy, or who helps a bishop to seek it, should be excommunicated. So it can be seen as more binding on this see because of a local law, and so we shouldn't be surprised that bad things happen when we break our own rules.

That said, the results for others going against the ancient discipline hasn't been great either. Many EO clergy and laity acknowledge that ambitious bishops is a real problem, that it has been dealt with at the earliest times, and that we shouldn't be repeating the same mistakes again today.
Logged
CoptoGeek
of Alexandria, the Christ-loving City
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,422



« Reply #164 on: August 03, 2012, 08:50:38 AM »

Thanks, Jonathan. Sorry for not being more clear, I meant canon 15 from the Council of Nicea not the local council.
Logged

"Be oppressed, rather than the oppressor. Be gentle, rather than zealous. Lay hold of goodness, rather than justice." -St. Isaac of Nineveh

“I returned to the Coptic Orthodox Church with affection, finding in her our tormented and broken history“. -Salama Moussa
Jonathan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 801


WWW
« Reply #165 on: August 03, 2012, 09:28:52 AM »

Thanks, Jonathan. Sorry for not being more clear, I meant canon 15 from the Council of Nicea not the local council.

yes, I realize that, but what I meant is that because we have a local canon that agrees with Nicaea 15, but is much more forceful/strict, it is more binding on us to obey. Basically the theological impossibility is never taught, but the practical need for stability and the theological desirability of maintaing the ideal is taught. In the Apostolic canons you see the door left open to cases of great need. At Nicaea you see this door closed because it was being abused, not because the truth changed, but because it proved better not to leave that door open for the peace of the Church. Then in Alexandria, when this rule was being broken, placed an even firmer rule in place, calling for excommunication of those who support the ambition. So we're more at fault for breaking it than the other Patriarchates, since our own rules are stricter.
Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,112


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #166 on: August 03, 2012, 12:52:52 PM »

Why is it the Coptic Church alone tries to follow that canon?

Because everyone else has decided experience as a bishop is useful for very important bishops.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,772



« Reply #167 on: August 03, 2012, 08:29:26 PM »

[edit]
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 08:30:04 PM by Asteriktos » Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #168 on: August 04, 2012, 02:15:06 AM »

A Statement from the Diocese of Alexandria to the Members of the Holy Synod, the General Council of Denominational Affairs, and the Organization of Coptic Endowments


Quote
The Diocese of Alexandria is the Diocese of Saint Mark, the Evangelizer of the Land of Egypt. On this basis, the Diocese acquired the honour of granting the titles “Pope” and “Patriarch” to her Bishop, who is advanced in honour amongst his brethren, the Diocesan Bishops.

We, the people of Alexandria, request to participate in the elections. As the late Pope Shenouda used to say, “It is the right of the people to choose their shepherd.” Therefore, to us, the Pope is our Bishop, and so we request to join the list of voters.

As the Bishops of other dioceses are chosen from amongst the monastic fathers – who are not greedy for authority, nor do they vie for any position – the people of Alexandria ask and demand that their Bishop, who is the Pope and Patriarch, be from amongst the monastic fathers whose ranks do not exceed that of a Hegoumen. This is on the principle of equality, and out of respect to the ecclesial traditions, which were established over the ages, from the fourth century A.D., when the Ecumenical Council of Nicaea was convened in the year A.D. 325. It has not occurred in our Coptic Church – throughout the ages – to install a Bishop over any diocese from amongst the Fathers the Bishops.

We, as a people who love their Church and uphold Her traditions, respect and value all the Fathers the Metropolitans and Bishops. However, and at the same time, we ask of them to steer away from being nominated to the Papal Throne, because it is dedicated to one of the monastic fathers, and it is not proper to violate this truth. Just as there is no repetition of Baptism, and no repetition to the laying on of hands.

The people of Alexandria are looking forward to the Rite of the Ordination of the Pope and Patriarch, and not to a celebration of an elevation. We ask and entreat Thy Goodness, O Lover of Mankind, bring forth to us a good monastic shepherd who will shepherd Thy people in purity and righteousness.

From the Diocese of Alexandria

from http://canon15.nicaea.ca/index.php/other-statements
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 02:16:26 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
jewish voice
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 475



« Reply #169 on: August 07, 2012, 02:31:27 AM »

When does the voting start ? how is this done does it look like the Rome/ western way of voting on the Pope ie white and black smoke locked doors? where is the voting held at?  Will people gather outside and wait for the Pope to come out? sorry if these questions seam dumb
Logged
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,501


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #170 on: August 07, 2012, 12:56:03 PM »

all the congregations have been asked to ask their people's opinion.
i filled mine in on sunday.
these are not binding votes, just comments.

then the voters (there are some from each part of the church) vote (these days they don't have to be all present in one place) and the 3 candidates who score the most get their names put into a basket during a liturgy in the cathedral in egypt. a small child draws one out (in history, this is sometimes repeated to ensure that the same one is drawn as evidence of the work of God).
there are several variations on this theme, it has not always happened the same way in history, so it may be a little different next time.
so, sorry, no extreme fasting, smoke etc, but of course we always fast and pray for our leaders and use incense, so i suppose there is no complete ban on smoke!
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #171 on: August 12, 2012, 05:16:03 PM »

Coptic Orthodox Church reveals 17 candidates for papal seat
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContentP/1/50089/Egypt/Coptic-Orthodox-Church-reveals--candidates-for-pap.aspx
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #172 on: August 12, 2012, 05:19:53 PM »

Ya, I saw that...I wasn't going to post anything, since I didn't understand why Al Ahram decided to talk about the 17 candidates now, when it was already revealed weeks (months?) ago!!!

Perhaps, the bios of the 17 were revealed for the first time, but we already knew the names a while ago:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43643.msg756637.html#msg756637

What we're waiting for now, is a list of 7 candidates from these 17 which will lead to the registered voters of the Coptic Church to vote the highest 3 among these 7.  We hope the 7 candidates would be revealed God willing sometime right before Coptic New Year.  They were supposed to be revealed this month, but due to the controversy of diocesan bishops being Papal candidates, it seems we are being held back by a month.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 05:21:57 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
miamiwestchester
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 19


« Reply #173 on: August 16, 2012, 04:21:42 PM »

I know I am late to the thread but, may the Lord have mercy on your Faithful Servant. Times are tough in Egypt for those Orthodox Coptic still living there. May the Lord grant them peace and His love to keep them safe from harm.
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #174 on: September 13, 2012, 11:40:30 PM »

The Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church has officially set up a timeline for the selection process of the next Pope of Alexandria:

https://www.copticworld.org/articles/1223/

The 17 before mentioned candidates will be published tomorrow in major newspapers, where they will be presented with criticisms by the registered voters from around the world's Coptic Church, until September 30th where no more criticisms will be accepted.  On Wednesday Oct. 3, we will be presented with the final 5-7 candidates.  Right around Thanksgiving is when there will be an election for the top three votes, and on December 2, 2012, the three names will be placed on a chalice, where a little boy will come and randomly pick out one name, and this name will be ordained and/or seated as the successor to the See of St. Mark.  These three major events in the next coming weeks will be preceded by 3-day fasts, where the Coptic faithful are called to fast that God's choice may be manifested.

May the Lord strengthen us and help us choose the righteous and called successor.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 11:41:11 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #175 on: September 14, 2012, 12:10:17 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church has officially set up a timeline for the selection process of the next Pope of Alexandria:

https://www.copticworld.org/articles/1223/

The 17 before mentioned candidates will be published tomorrow in major newspapers, where they will be presented with criticisms by the registered voters from around the world's Coptic Church, until September 30th where no more criticisms will be accepted.  On Wednesday Oct. 3, we will be presented with the final 5-7 candidates.  Right around Thanksgiving is when there will be an election for the top three votes, and on December 2, 2012, the three names will be placed on a chalice, where a little boy will come and randomly pick out one name, and this name will be ordained and/or seated as the successor to the See of St. Mark.  These three major events in the next coming weeks will be preceded by 3-day fasts, where the Coptic faithful are called to fast that God's choice may be manifest

May the Lord strengthen us and help us choose the righteous and called successor.

Glad to hear.  When I was first hearing all this talk about voting etc. I was concerned that the marvelous tradition of the little boy picking was going to be lost.  So nice its still the plan Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,407


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #176 on: September 14, 2012, 12:18:21 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church has officially set up a timeline for the selection process of the next Pope of Alexandria:

https://www.copticworld.org/articles/1223/

The 17 before mentioned candidates will be published tomorrow in major newspapers, where they will be presented with criticisms by the registered voters from around the world's Coptic Church, until September 30th where no more criticisms will be accepted.  On Wednesday Oct. 3, we will be presented with the final 5-7 candidates.  Right around Thanksgiving is when there will be an election for the top three votes, and on December 2, 2012, the three names will be placed on a chalice, where a little boy will come and randomly pick out one name, and this name will be ordained and/or seated as the successor to the See of St. Mark.  These three major events in the next coming weeks will be preceded by 3-day fasts, where the Coptic faithful are called to fast that God's choice may be manifest

May the Lord strengthen us and help us choose the righteous and called successor.

Glad to hear.  When I was first hearing all this talk about voting etc. I was concerned that the marvelous tradition of the little boy picking was going to be lost.  So nice its still the plan Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Well this whole election process is not without controversy. I personally am disappointed on a couple of aspects of this process, but I hope these fasts may at least reach to God in His mercy to lead us in the right direction.  Hopefully the next Pope will fix the issues surrounding Papal selection.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 12:19:17 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Stavro
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,160



« Reply #177 on: September 14, 2012, 07:27:54 PM »

3 October - Nominations committee commences deliberations and creates a shortlist of 5-7 candidates for papal election

19-21 November - Church-wide fast before Papal election


Is the final list of candidates gonna be published on October 3rd?

What will they do until November 19? 

The kids in Sunday School are putting money on the final 7 candidates. Here are the guesses:
 
Bishops:

1) Bishoy
2) Younaess
3) Pavnotius
4) Tawdros
5) Raphael

Monks:

Anybody will do. They are just placeholders.

It is all fixed.



Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #178 on: September 14, 2012, 07:36:59 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


It is all fixed.





True but unlike the NBA, we can at least hope and pray that God is the One throwing the match Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Stavro
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,160



« Reply #179 on: September 16, 2012, 12:45:28 AM »

Quote
True but unlike the NBA, we can at least hope and pray that God is the One throwing the match

Remember the 2002 Western Conference Final?

God works through people. There has to be a certain synergy between God and men, in which the believer subjects himself and his will to God in order for God to use him and work through him. In absence of human cooperation with God, the work of God is blocked.

The synod has openly defied God and has chosen to follow their corrupt rules, developed to further the case of their corrupt members, instead of the divinely inspired Church canons.

The one to be blamed is Anba Shenouda for his intentional selection of unworthy individuals for the rank of bishops so he can control them and dominate them to establish himself as the supreme head of the Church.   
Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
Tags: Coptic Orthodox Church Pope Shenouda Canon 15 of Nicaea 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.161 seconds with 72 queries.