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Author Topic: HH Pope Shenouda III has Reposed in The Lord  (Read 25225 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 17, 2012, 01:17:17 PM »

Memory eternal.
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2012, 01:27:04 PM »

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/egypts-state-news-agency-says-pope-shenouda-iii-head-of-coptic-christian-church-has-died-143050106.html
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2012, 01:30:36 PM »

Lord have mercy on your servant and grant him memory eternal.
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2012, 01:35:34 PM »

Memory eternal!
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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2012, 01:45:18 PM »

Memory eternal!
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2012, 02:00:47 PM »

Memory eternal
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« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2012, 02:20:33 PM »

Memory Eternal!
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« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2012, 02:30:02 PM »

Lord have mercy! Memory eternal!

What an inopportune time!  But then He knows better.
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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2012, 02:33:46 PM »

Live broadcast of the news in Egypt (at the time I posted it)

http://www.ctvcoptic.blogspot.com/


various other live streams:

http://cycnow.com/

http://www.logoschannel.com/live.aspx

http://www.livestream.com/aghapychannel

http://atvsat.com/watch-live.html

http://hopesat.tv/A_Live.php

http://www.truthsat.tv/viewpage.php?id=65
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 02:43:06 PM by CoptoGeek » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2012, 02:35:21 PM »

Egypt's Coptic Christian Pope Shenouda III dies

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17416429
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« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2012, 02:43:16 PM »

Ya Rubb Irham!
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« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2012, 02:54:07 PM »

Memory eternal!
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« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2012, 03:08:00 PM »

Memory eternal, Lord have mercy! Let the Copts have a new good patriarch, appropriate shepherd for this difficult times for Christians in Egypt! Grant this O Lord!

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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2012, 03:10:24 PM »

Indeed Dominika, indeed!  At this point in time, I pray to God that a wise and good shepherd is chosen even if it be for those few years of transition into the new Egyptian government that is well needed.
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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2012, 03:11:00 PM »

Memory eternal.
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« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2012, 03:15:21 PM »

Is it true that His Holiness passed away today? I am seeing RIP status updates on facebook but didn't find any news. Can someone confirm please
If it is true, it is a devastating news Sad((
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« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2012, 03:19:57 PM »

^Yes, unfortunately.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43643.msg722616.html#msg722616

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43642.msg722610.html#msg722610
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 03:29:58 PM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2012, 03:24:29 PM »

Feel free to continue praying on this thread, but another thread exists solely for this purpose on the Prayer Forum if you would like to offer your prayers there as well.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43642.0.html
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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2012, 03:50:54 PM »

As per canon law, the locum tenens, or transitional leader of the Church would be the oldest bishop of the highest rank.  My father just read on the Egyptian channels that His Eminence Metropolitan Mikhail of Assyut passed down the responsibility and His Eminence Metropolitan Pakhomious of el-Beheira (and Pentapolis) accepted the post, and has asked the Coptic Church that no more than two months should be given for the election of the new Pope.  May God grant His Eminence strength and wisdom these next couple of weeks.

http://www.theholysynod.copticpope.org/m003.htm

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« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2012, 07:01:35 PM »

http://www.copticpope.org/

This appears to be the announcement. Can someone translate?  Cry
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« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2012, 07:31:51 PM »

Memory eternal.  Lord have mercy.

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« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2012, 08:11:10 PM »

http://www.copticpope.org/

This appears to be the announcement. Can someone translate?  Cry

According to google translate:

Quote

Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
in the delivery of full to the will of the Lord,
and in full faith by submitting to his will,
convey to the people of Egypt and the world
and the Coptic Orthodox Church in Egypt and the world,
The Departure of His Holiness our Father beloved
Pope Shenouda III
, Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of Saint Mark Episcopate, the 117


Saint of our times and patron of our sponsors and head Osaagaftna,
who moved in the hope of resurrection and joined
to the church of virgins and the ranks of the saints
at a quarter past five pm Saturday, March 17, 2012
We pray for the departure of his soul pure, and condolences all of us
will bring you the details successively after the
convening of the Holy Synod.


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« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2012, 08:43:58 PM »

Thank you, Sheenj.
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« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2012, 10:11:34 PM »

We must also pray that his successor is a versatile man who can guide the Church through the current crisis in Egypt. He must also be firm in his Orthodoxy and spiritually sound so as to lead her through the battles she is facing with Protestantization.

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2012, 02:12:38 AM »

Memory eternal, may God grant them a holy and able shepherd.
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« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2012, 02:24:05 AM »

This is what I posted on my Facebook page:


"The world lost one of its beloved Orthodox fathers yesterday. His Holiness Pope Shenouda III - Patriarch of the Egyptian Coptic Church - departed in the Lord at the age of 88, after faithfully serving Him and His Church for decades. He was a stalwart preserver of Orthodox doctrine and morality, never caving into the pressures of modernity or the subjective whims of the liberal theological tide. His Holiness was an unapologetic defender of the Christian Faith amidst a sea of Islamic intimidation and terror. He also labored to preserve the Church from the onslaughts of Protestant heresies and cults. Now he has joined the angels and the beloved Saints of Egypt, St. Mary and St. Anthony, amongst others. He has left a wellspring of spiritual writings to guide and preserve the Church for ages to come. May his prayers and intercession be with us always, and may his blessed memory be Eternal!" 

Selam, +GMK+
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« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2012, 03:08:54 AM »

what i can understand of that translation is ok.
the word 'Osaagaftna' means our bishop.

may the Lord give us peace and strength as we mourn the departure of one of our wisest and most loving leaders, a man who would never compromise his faith, and who talked to small children and great statesmen with the same care and attention, who left us with many memorable sayings (eg. 'our Lord is with us / present') and who was a great example as his live embodied the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
oh Lord, repose your beloved servant.
remember us and all the Christians, oh dear patriarch, before the throne of grace.
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« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2012, 03:22:32 AM »

I just seen this on Aol I remember about a year or 2 he did an interview with 60 mins may he rest in peace. I also just wanted to say that on the aol postings that O.O should be looking for there sites to go through the roof as people had no clue as to an eastern church even being around so Shenouda is still preaching to the people
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« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2012, 04:00:25 AM »

Yes, I think for a lot of non-Orthodox to read the title "Pope" not connected to the Bishop of Rome must be a curious thing. But Pope Shenouda in a very real and direct way brought me to the church, and will continue to call others. Such a strong and loving shepherd attracts many of us wandering sheep.

I'm still really reeling from this news, but I know that God will provide for us in leading the church during these difficult times. May the prayers of our dear beloved father Pope Shenouda be with us all.
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« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2012, 05:12:48 AM »

I second ialmisry there.  I thought just the same upon hearing the news.  There is an uncomfortable sense of urgency following the timing of this.
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« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2012, 05:55:10 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyhQjUfgVOQ

Seated upon the patriarchal throne post-mortem during the funeral liturgy.
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« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2012, 08:10:50 AM »

Memory eternal.
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« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2012, 03:14:00 PM »

Interestingly, in Arabic, he is called "Baba", which means "Daddy".
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« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2012, 03:20:50 PM »

Well "Pope" comes from Gk. "Papas", originally "Father", so it makes sense.
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« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2012, 04:16:59 PM »

samb, thanks for that link. i watched it twice with my friend.
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« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2012, 08:03:09 PM »

Lord, grant rest to his soul!
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« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2012, 11:12:41 PM »

Interestingly, in Arabic, he is called "Baba", which means "Daddy".

Same thing in a Coptic Catholic liturgy, they'll pray for "Baba Benedict"...so yes, Baba means Daddy, and it's the Arabic choice for Pope as well.
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« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2012, 11:15:21 PM »

Look at the thousands coming to pay their respects and mourn today:



http://www.france24.com/en/20120319-grieving-copts-bid-farewell-pope-shenuda

He is so beloved, and he prays for us now.
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« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2012, 07:28:25 AM »

Lord, have mercy. Memory eternal.
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« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2012, 09:10:27 AM »

May his memory be eternal.
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« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2012, 10:39:57 AM »


Sorrounded by so many cold and unwelcoming faces, I feel like I am embraced by angelic warmth whenever I see the face of H.H Pope Shenouda. He will be missed greatly. A tough challenge for the one who replaces his chair. Who are the potential candidates?
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« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2012, 11:04:30 AM »

Lord have mercy on your servant.

PP
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« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2012, 12:12:10 PM »

CYC video of HH Pope Shenouda III

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fB2wXGaMAw
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« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2012, 12:36:51 PM »

The many people coming to pay their respects.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCUniLuwv4o

Tragically, three have died in the massive crowds outside the Cathedral. Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2012, 12:52:22 PM »


Sorrounded by so many cold and unwelcoming faces, I feel like I am embraced by angelic warmth whenever I see the face of H.H Pope Shenouda. He will be missed greatly. A tough challenge for the one who replaces his chair. Who are the potential candidates?


Some of the candidates I've heard:

His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy of Damietta:

He was also considered the right hand of the Pope, and by some people even as the Pope himself.  He has also been in the front lines of theological dialogues and an advocate to unity with the Eastern Orthodox.  Politically (or theologically) however he is controversial with Muslims and other Christians, Orthodox or non-Orthodx, and even within the Synod. He is also a diocesan Metropolitan, which is an uncomfortable notion in accordance with ancient church tradition, although it has one precedent before with Pope Yousab who was Metropolitan of Girga.

His Grace Bishop Youannis, General Bishop and Papal Secretary:

He is beloved by many, especially the youth, and is known for his love of Coptic hymns, particularly Midnight tasbeha.  He is however considered by some as too young, by others as unqualified due to his personality and lack of any real leadership,  and yet by others as borderline heretical due to his semi-charismatic (Protestant-like) character.  He received "street cred" when supporters of his spread a story around about a dream he had where the Theotokos implied he would be the next Pope.

His Grace Bishop Rafael, General Bishop:

He is quite low-key, but well respected and considered as a logical successor.  He seems to have an appeal to many as the "second Shenouda" for his frequent lectures and writings.  He is well educated in theology and he also is known not only for his knowledge of Coptic hymns, but the theological teaching of the hymns and rites.  I have not heard anything negative about him.  He also has "street cred" when a story about him spread around that the late His Holiness Pope Kyrillos did a "metanya" (prostration) to him when he was only a monk.  When the Pope was approached (he was known for his miracles and knowing the future) as to why he did this, he replied that he did a prostration to the Pope of Alexandria.

His Grace Bishop Moussa, General Bishop of Youth:

If His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy is considered from a political standpoint illogical to be the next Pope, His Grace Bishop Moussa would be the logical choice.  He is very loveable and certainly very beloved by practically anyone.  He has never had any problems with anyone within the Synod, not even with His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy or with those against him.  He is also loved by non-Orthodox and Muslims.  Whenever disasters occurred, he was the face of comfort and reassurance for both Copts and Muslims alike.  The only negative I've heard is age, but many argued that age shouldn't be an issue, since in these turbulent times, he would be the most logical choice.

Notice that the candidates are all bishops, and mostly general or non-diocesan bishops, which seems to be the expected trend as of now, considered that the last 3 out of 4 Popes were bishops (and the only ones in Coptic history), which leads to the endless debate of the validity of choices for Pope as well as the debate of the validity of non-diocesan bishops.  As of now I have not heard of any priests or deacons in consideration for the position.
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« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2012, 12:56:58 PM »

After the conclusion of last night's pan-Orthodox Vespers, Archbishop Nathaniel stated that we would be now serving a panachida for the repose of Pope Shenouda III.  He spoke a few words about him, and told a story of how he had met him....

When deciding which Bishop's Staff to bring with him for this weekend, he picked a rather sturdy, yet simple, wooden one.  At the time he had not known that Pope Shenouda had passed away.  He heard the news as he entered the church for services, and said it touched him, because the staff which he had picked, was gifted to him by Pope Shenouda.  



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« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2012, 01:35:26 PM »

HH Pope Shenouda III will be layed to rest at St. Pishoy's Monastery in Wadi Natrun.  Here's a video of the final preparations.

http://www.youtube.com/watchv=C_kqW7fK_ZY

The funeral will be in the Cathedral on Tuesday Mid-morning, around 10 or 11 am Egyptian time.
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« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2012, 02:04:21 PM »

I was able to find a documentary of his life with subtitles for our English speaking friends.

http://www.youtube.com/watchv=qXi3HiPSOqQ


Thank you for your post, LizaSymonenko. It was very touching to read.
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« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2012, 02:19:09 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The news breaks my stride and my heart more so than the passing of Christians usually does.  After all, His Holiness is in the Kingdom, is part of the Communion of Saints, there is nothing to mourn in the final or concrete sense, but his loss to us is devastating.  His Holiness has been the truest successor of the See of Saint Mark since Saint Athanasius or Saint Cyril or Saint Dioscoros!!  The way Catholics loved John Paul II we Orientals adore HH Pope Shenouda!!  He was such a dear father to ALL of Africa, and all African Orthodox took HH guidance, HH wisdom, HH fellowship and friendship in the highest regards.  HH was a powerful political force and yet entirely from a spiritual perspective.  We have all learned to be the best Christians because of HH truly Apostolic example, indeed I can't think of a Patriarch who has better been truly one of the Apostles in our midst.  When the Body has been feuding against its own members, be it in Egypt, or even Ethiopia and Eritrea, HH interceded like a good father with his children to quell the disputes as the holy Apostle Paul did in Corinthians.  We know God is moving in our communities especially because of the works and legacy of fathers like HH Pope Shenouda, and we will miss his loss in the Militant Church, but we will gain all the more the power of his prayer from the Church Triumphant..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2012, 02:24:06 PM »

and we will miss his loss in the Militant Church, but we will gain all the more the power of his prayer from the Church Triumphant..

There is no such distinction in Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2012, 02:27:42 PM »

and we will miss his loss in the Militant Church, but we will gain all the more the power of his prayer from the Church Triumphant..

There is no such distinction in Orthodoxy.

It's just a figure of speech, Michal.  Church Militant, Suffering and Triumphant are just ways to talk about the Church as a whole, comprising those of us who are living and dead.
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« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2012, 02:33:31 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Our Father's great legacy of spiritual works which have helped we Christians to transcend the struggles of this life.  We don't revere HH simply because of the title, rather because HH was truly a living Apostle in our midst, and we shed tears of joy over what HH has given to our lives, indeed across the lives of three generations!!

There is a lifetime of reading here, let us reflect on these in our times of sadness..

http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/Calmness/index.html
stay blessed,
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« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2012, 04:08:27 PM »

An amatuer video of the crowd

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KUaC-O2T-Y
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« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2012, 04:08:53 PM »

Mourning Pope Shenouda III, Egypt's Coptic Christians fear for their future

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/03/18/142332/mourning-pope-shenouda-iii-egypts.html
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« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2012, 04:10:38 PM »

Memory eternal.Lord have mercy and grant him eternal life.
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« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2012, 05:08:32 PM »

I miss him already. His writings on prayer really comfort me. Memory eternal.
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« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2012, 05:20:39 PM »

coptogeek, yr youtube links of the final preparations and the life story don't work.
everyone, thanks for the lovely pictures.
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« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2012, 05:35:55 PM »

coptogeek, yr youtube links of the final preparations and the life story don't work.
everyone, thanks for the lovely pictures.

Mabsoota, you may be trying to watch on an iphone/ipad.  Not all youtube videos work on them. They should work on a computer.
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« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2012, 05:40:35 PM »

I have tried to watch both on a desktop, and neither work for me, either.
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« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2012, 05:48:43 PM »

iphone, me?!
 Cheesy
 Grin
 laugh
i can just about use a laptop...

edit: do u have any source about the deaths of people in the crowd?
sounds really unpleasant.
Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2012, 05:50:31 PM »

I have tried to watch both on a desktop, and neither work for me, either.

Hopefully these work, I included the Arabic titles so you can search for them if the links break.


سيرة عطرة: قداسة البابا شنودة ج 1
(Fragrant Biography: HH Pope Shenouda)
http://youtu.be/qXi3HiPSOqQ 
 
I think the "ج 1" is the arabic shorthand for "Chapter 1" but am not certain so I left it out.

تجهيز مدفن البابا شنودة بوادى النطرون
(Preparing the tomb for HH Pope Shenouda in Wadi Natrun)
http://youtu.be/C_kqW7fK_ZY 

text changed to reflect translations into english for all foreign text.  - serb1389.
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« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2012, 05:52:55 PM »

iphone, me?!
 Cheesy
 Grin
 laugh
i can just about use a laptop...

edit: do u have any source about the deaths of people in the crowd?
sounds really unpleasant.
Lord have mercy.

Sorry, mabsoota. It was my fault. Hopefully the links I just posted work.

3 deaths and 137 injured among crowds at Coptic cathedral

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/37146/Egypt/Politics-/-deaths-and--injured-among-crowds-at-Coptic-cathed.aspx
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« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2012, 06:32:48 PM »

Thank you. Those two links work for me.
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« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2012, 07:01:24 PM »


Sorrounded by so many cold and unwelcoming faces, I feel like I am embraced by angelic warmth whenever I see the face of H.H Pope Shenouda. He will be missed greatly. A tough challenge for the one who replaces his chair. Who are the potential candidates?


Some of the candidates I've heard:

His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy of Damietta:

He was also considered the right hand of the Pope, and by some people even as the Pope himself.  He has also been in the front lines of theological dialogues and an advocate to unity with the Eastern Orthodox.  Politically (or theologically) however he is controversial with Muslims and other Christians, Orthodox or non-Orthodx, and even within the Synod. He is also a diocesan Metropolitan, which is an uncomfortable notion in accordance with ancient church tradition, although it has one precedent before with Pope Yousab who was Metropolitan of Girga.

His Grace Bishop Youannis, General Bishop and Papal Secretary:

He is beloved by many, especially the youth, and is known for his love of Coptic hymns, particularly Midnight tasbeha.  He is however considered by some as too young, by others as unqualified due to his personality and lack of any real leadership,  and yet by others as borderline heretical due to his semi-charismatic (Protestant-like) character.  He received "street cred" when supporters of his spread a story around about a dream he had where the Theotokos implied he would be the next Pope.

His Grace Bishop Rafael, General Bishop:

He is quite low-key, but well respected and considered as a logical successor.  He seems to have an appeal to many as the "second Shenouda" for his frequent lectures and writings.  He is well educated in theology and he also is known not only for his knowledge of Coptic hymns, but the theological teaching of the hymns and rites.  I have not heard anything negative about him.  He also has "street cred" when a story about him spread around that the late His Holiness Pope Kyrillos did a "metanya" (prostration) to him when he was only a monk.  When the Pope was approached (he was known for his miracles and knowing the future) as to why he did this, he replied that he did a prostration to the Pope of Alexandria.

His Grace Bishop Moussa, General Bishop of Youth:

If His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy is considered from a political standpoint illogical to be the next Pope, His Grace Bishop Moussa would be the logical choice.  He is very loveable and certainly very beloved by practically anyone.  He has never had any problems with anyone within the Synod, not even with His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy or with those against him.  He is also loved by non-Orthodox and Muslims.  Whenever disasters occurred, he was the face of comfort and reassurance for both Copts and Muslims alike.  The only negative I've heard is age, but many argued that age shouldn't be an issue, since in these turbulent times, he would be the most logical choice.

Notice that the candidates are all bishops, and mostly general or non-diocesan bishops, which seems to be the expected trend as of now, considered that the last 3 out of 4 Popes were bishops (and the only ones in Coptic history), which leads to the endless debate of the validity of choices for Pope as well as the debate of the validity of non-diocesan bishops.  As of now I have not heard of any priests or deacons in consideration for the position.

I had never considered Bishop Moussa for the papacy, however, I wholeheartedly support this nomination, if it is God's will. I think I speak for the majority when I say that Bishop Moussa is one of the most peaceful, tenderhearted, caring bishops the Church of Alexandria has to offer. His work with the youth of the church serves a strong testimony to the work the Holy Spirit has performed through him.

If it is true that the Holy Synod is not eliminating Diocesan Bishops and politically controversial clergy, another candidate mentioned has been His Grace Bishop Paula of Tanta. His grace is a firm adherent to his monastic vows (especially concerning his desire to thoroughly eliminate meat consumption year-round), and upholds an uncompromising position regarding the ban of divorce within the Coptic Church. Bishop Paula serves as the chairman of the Marital Affairs committee of the Coptic Church. When the Egyptian Court demanded the approval of divorce within the Coptic Church, His Grace served as the right-hand man of our Late Patriarch in affirming the church's position. This unfortunately has caused him much unpopularity with the Egyptian media, muslims worldwide, and many Christian couples who seek divorce within the church. Many have suggested that the car accident that His Grace was involved in last year was an attempted assassination, since it immediately followed his appearance in the media as a primary opponent to the Egyptian Court.

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« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2012, 07:30:57 PM »

May the Lord repose the soul of Pope Shenouda.

Of all the names nominated, nobody is qualified because they are bishops, whether they ordained to a geographical episcopate or "general" bishops. It is against the Apostolic Canons, Nicean Canons, and this ban on bishops to ascend the Papacy has been renewed throughout the history of the Coptic Church. The Pope of Alexandria is a bishop in the end, and he cannot be ordained twice to the same rank nor is there anything in the Church called transfer of Episcopate.

I have the greatest respect for Anba Rofael, and it is unfortunate that he has been ordained to this "general" bishop rank for he would have been a great Pope. The same goes for Anba Macarius, the general bishop of Menia. They would have been amazing in this time after Protestantism has eaten up the Church from inside, for their Orthodoxy is unquestioned and their spiritually unparalleled. They are the reincarnation of Pope Kyrillos VI. Ma3lesh.

Now, as long as you are going to break the canons, break it for an OK person. Do not pick Bishop Youaness. 
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« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2012, 08:01:44 PM »

Now, as long as you are going to break the canons, break it for an OK person. Do not pick Bishop Youaness. 
I'm genuinely curious, why do many people seem to not like Bishop Youannes? I've seen it a couple times now even on this board.
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« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2012, 08:05:15 PM »

May the Lord repose the soul of Pope Shenouda.

Of all the names nominated, nobody is qualified because they are bishops, whether they ordained to a geographical episcopate or "general" bishops. It is against the Apostolic Canons, Nicean Canons, and this ban on bishops to ascend the Papacy has been renewed throughout the history of the Coptic Church. The Pope of Alexandria is a bishop in the end, and he cannot be ordained twice to the same rank nor is there anything in the Church called transfer of Episcopate.

I have the greatest respect for Anba Rofael, and it is unfortunate that he has been ordained to this "general" bishop rank for he would have been a great Pope. The same goes for Anba Macarius, the general bishop of Menia. They would have been amazing in this time after Protestantism has eaten up the Church from inside, for their Orthodoxy is unquestioned and their spiritually unparalleled. They are the reincarnation of Pope Kyrillos VI. Ma3lesh.

Now, as long as you are going to break the canons, break it for an OK person. Do not pick Bishop Youaness. 


Your argument regarding the "re-ordination" of bishops is invalid since Metropolitans are "ordained-twice," though the rank is not separate of the episcopate. Surely then it would be permissible for a bishop to be ordained a Patriarch, a rank of obvious superiority. Second, although the church does not permit a bishop to transfer to a different diocese, in accordance with the Ecumenical Councils, it is debatable with regards to its application regarding the ordination of a Patriarch, who was previously a bishop. The reason for this is that his ordination as a Patriarch, can be seen as an addition to his diocese, and not a transfer, assuming that no bishop is ordained in his place, as was the case with our late patriarch. If this was an obvious violation to the canons, I'm sure the Holy Synod at the time of Patriarch Yusab would not have approved his ordination since as previously mentioned, he was a Metropolitan.

Copticyouth93

PS: I do not know who you are addressing when you say "Do not pick Bishop Youaness," for we are not "picking" anyone. We are simply going through the candidates, requesting God's will to be enforced. Therefore, the only person you are ordering is our Lord, and I find it inconceivable of you to do so, for it is his church and his flock.
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« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2012, 08:07:56 PM »



Watch the Funeral Ceremony of H.H. Pope Shenouda III - LIVE

Tomorrow @ 5:00 AM EST (11:00 AM Egypt Time)

All major Coptic TV Channel Streams are available to watch at this link:

http://www.pantocratorbiblestudy.com/search/label/COPTICTV

May the Lord repose the precious soul of His Holiness and give us the strength to endure!
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We thank you O Christ, for giving us the blessing and the privilege of living under the papacy of your most honored and blessed servant H.H. Pope Shenouda III.
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« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2012, 09:26:51 PM »

May the Lord repose the soul of Pope Shenouda.

Of all the names nominated, nobody is qualified because they are bishops, whether they ordained to a geographical episcopate or "general" bishops. It is against the Apostolic Canons, Nicean Canons, and this ban on bishops to ascend the Papacy has been renewed throughout the history of the Coptic Church. The Pope of Alexandria is a bishop in the end, and he cannot be ordained twice to the same rank nor is there anything in the Church called transfer of Episcopate.

I have the greatest respect for Anba Rofael, and it is unfortunate that he has been ordained to this "general" bishop rank for he would have been a great Pope. The same goes for Anba Macarius, the general bishop of Menia. They would have been amazing in this time after Protestantism has eaten up the Church from inside, for their Orthodoxy is unquestioned and their spiritually unparalleled. They are the reincarnation of Pope Kyrillos VI. Ma3lesh.

Now, as long as you are going to break the canons, break it for an OK person. Do not pick Bishop Youaness. 


Your argument regarding the "re-ordination" of bishops is invalid since Metropolitans are "ordained-twice," though the rank is not separate of the episcopate. Surely then it would be permissible for a bishop to be ordained a Patriarch, a rank of obvious superiority. Second, although the church does not permit a bishop to transfer to a different diocese, in accordance with the Ecumenical Councils, it is debatable with regards to its application regarding the ordination of a Patriarch, who was previously a bishop. The reason for this is that his ordination as a Patriarch, can be seen as an addition to his diocese, and not a transfer, assuming that no bishop is ordained in his place, as was the case with our late patriarch. If this was an obvious violation to the canons, I'm sure the Holy Synod at the time of Patriarch Yusab would not have approved his ordination since as previously mentioned, he was a Metropolitan.

Copticyouth93

PS: I do not know who you are addressing when you say "Do not pick Bishop Youaness," for we are not "picking" anyone. We are simply going through the candidates, requesting God's will to be enforced. Therefore, the only person you are ordering is our Lord, and I find it inconceivable of you to do so, for it is his church and his flock.

I personally would agree with Stavro on this one.  Whenever a bishop was chosen to the Papacy, they were not "ordained" but rather "consecrated" or "celebrated" into the position.  Only HH Pope Kyrillos VI was "ordained" into the papacy since he was only a priest monk Fr. Mina at the time of his choosing.  But I personally do not like the idea of "general bishops", nor do I wish that a bishop be put into the Papacy despite the contemporary precedents.  I also believe the voting should be changed a bit.  Why not include the church priests, deacons, and archdeacons of the world, as well as those who are in charge of service and prominent church committee members?  Why this conspicuous and nowadays useless "Maglis Millee"?  I don't know...but we shall see.  According to my father, who was in his late teens and a Sunday School teacher at the time of transition into the new Pope, it wasn't a bright moment for the Church, unfortunately.

As for HG Bishop Youannes, I have no view of him except that I enjoy his tasbehas.  That's pretty much it.  I'm not fond of his sermons, but I've never seen anything wrong with them.  But he does have his controversies with the people of things that I am not fully aware of to judge completely.
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« Reply #69 on: March 19, 2012, 09:40:14 PM »

May the Lord repose the soul of Pope Shenouda.

Of all the names nominated, nobody is qualified because they are bishops, whether they ordained to a geographical episcopate or "general" bishops. It is against the Apostolic Canons, Nicean Canons, and this ban on bishops to ascend the Papacy has been renewed throughout the history of the Coptic Church. The Pope of Alexandria is a bishop in the end, and he cannot be ordained twice to the same rank nor is there anything in the Church called transfer of Episcopate.

I have the greatest respect for Anba Rofael, and it is unfortunate that he has been ordained to this "general" bishop rank for he would have been a great Pope. The same goes for Anba Macarius, the general bishop of Menia. They would have been amazing in this time after Protestantism has eaten up the Church from inside, for their Orthodoxy is unquestioned and their spiritually unparalleled. They are the reincarnation of Pope Kyrillos VI. Ma3lesh.

Now, as long as you are going to break the canons, break it for an OK person. Do not pick Bishop Youaness. 


Your argument regarding the "re-ordination" of bishops is invalid since Metropolitans are "ordained-twice," though the rank is not separate of the episcopate. Surely then it would be permissible for a bishop to be ordained a Patriarch, a rank of obvious superiority. Second, although the church does not permit a bishop to transfer to a different diocese, in accordance with the Ecumenical Councils, it is debatable with regards to its application regarding the ordination of a Patriarch, who was previously a bishop. The reason for this is that his ordination as a Patriarch, can be seen as an addition to his diocese, and not a transfer, assuming that no bishop is ordained in his place, as was the case with our late patriarch. If this was an obvious violation to the canons, I'm sure the Holy Synod at the time of Patriarch Yusab would not have approved his ordination since as previously mentioned, he was a Metropolitan.

Copticyouth93

PS: I do not know who you are addressing when you say "Do not pick Bishop Youaness," for we are not "picking" anyone. We are simply going through the candidates, requesting God's will to be enforced. Therefore, the only person you are ordering is our Lord, and I find it inconceivable of you to do so, for it is his church and his flock.

I personally would agree with Stavro on this one.  Whenever a bishop was chosen to the Papacy, they were not "ordained" but rather "consecrated" or "celebrated" into the position.  Only HH Pope Kyrillos VI was "ordained" into the papacy since he was only a priest monk Fr. Mina at the time of his choosing.  But I personally do not like the idea of "general bishops", nor do I wish that a bishop be put into the Papacy despite the contemporary precedents.  I also believe the voting should be changed a bit.  Why not include the church priests, deacons, and archdeacons of the world, as well as those who are in charge of service and prominent church committee members?  Why this conspicuous and nowadays useless "Maglis Millee"?  I don't know...but we shall see.  According to my father, who was in his late teens and a Sunday School teacher at the time of transition into the new Pope, it wasn't a bright moment for the Church, unfortunately.
y
As for HG Bishop Youannes, I have no view of him except that I enjoy his tasbehas.  That's pretty much it.  I'm not fond of his sermons, but I've never seen anything wrong with them.  But he does have his controversies with the people of things that I am not fully aware of to judge completely.

Do you have a source for this celebrated versus consecrated idea? Because in reality, Pope Kyrillos was not an exception at all. As Father Peter explained, most Patriarchs of Alexandria were previously monks, with the exception of a few modern Patriarchs such as our late father and Pope Yusab.
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« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2012, 09:56:15 PM »

Just for a historical perspective:

Pope Youannes XIX (papacy 1929-1942) was the first Pope ever to become Pope from an episcopacy.  He was the Metropolitan of Al Beheira (whose successor today is our Locum Tenens).

Pope Macarius III (papacy 1944-1945) was the second Pope ever to become Pope from an episcopacy.  He was the Metropolitan of Assuit (whose successor today HE Metropolitan Mikhail turned down the Locum Tenens position, who's a centenarian, and was even ordained before HH Pope Kyrillos VI's papacy).

Pope Yusab II (papacy 1946-1956) was the third Pope ever to become Pope from an episcopacy.  He was the Metropolitan of Girga.  He was also the first Pope whose Holy Synod decided to remove from his office due to corruption charges.  He passed away months later. 

The Papacy was vacant for four years, and the papacy was headed by three Metropolitans, one of whom was HE Metropolitan Mikhail of Assuit, who's still alive today.

Pope Kyrillos VI (papacy 1959-1971) was the only Pope in the 20th Century to be ordained to the Papacy (and thus far, the last Pope to have been ordained to the papacy).  He was Fr. Mina el-Baramosy, and was known as a wonder-working monk.  Perhaps, the modern golden age of the Coptic Church was started by him.  He also began the ordination of "general bishops," for concepts of universal Coptic service, and thus began an era of new ranking among the episcopacy.  For the first time, an episcopacy would be considered as separable from the diocese. 

He ordained Fr. Antonios el Suriany as "Bishop Shenouda, General Bishop of Christian Education and Dean of the Coptic Orthodox Theological Seminary."

This same Bishop Shenouda would be become Pope Shenouda (1971-2012), and while being the fourth Pope to become so from an episcopacy, he would be the first Pope to become so from being a general bishop, rather than a diocesan one.

A short article about the last 10 Popes posted by Al-Ahram online:

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/37154/Egypt/Politics-/The-last--Coptic-orthodox-Popes-.aspx

Quote
Ahram Online takes a quick look back at the last ten patriarchs of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.

The numbers are off.  Of course, Pope Shenouda was the 117th Pope, not the 118th.  Everyone before before, subtract one as well.

So in actuality, there are three precedents where diocesan bishops became Popes.  Which makes sense, since there were no such thing as "general bishops" before Pope Kyrillos.
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« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2012, 11:20:33 PM »

Fun fact: the Christian citizen who was martyred on March 25, 1844 (Al Ahram article said 1840) was St. Sidhom Bishay, who is also a great uncle to His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy of Demietta today.

May his prayers, whose commemoration is coming soon, be with us, that we may have an able and worthy Pope.
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« Reply #72 on: March 20, 2012, 12:19:09 AM »

and we will miss his loss in the Militant Church, but we will gain all the more the power of his prayer from the Church Triumphant..

There is no such distinction in Orthodoxy.

You are correct in a sense.  Christ is both militant and triumphant and the Church is His Body.  You are also correct that we would not use the terms in the sense that the modern west does.  Yet in terms of the struggling faithful in Orthodoxy, ALL of the Church in heaven and earth prior to the general resurrection is "militant" and ALL of the Church after the general resurrection is "triumphant."  This is because all of the Church in heaven and earth prior to the resurrection continue to struggle for the salvation of humankind, but afterward, all have received their reward according to the Lord's words.
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« Reply #73 on: March 20, 2012, 12:23:55 AM »

^I will also add that this is also because none of us will have received back our resurrected bodies until that point. 
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« Reply #74 on: March 20, 2012, 12:41:00 AM »

Wonderful quote from HH.  Thank you. 



Watch the Funeral Ceremony of H.H. Pope Shenouda III - LIVE

Tomorrow @ 5:00 AM EST (11:00 AM Egypt Time)

All major Coptic TV Channel Streams are available to watch at this link:

http://www.pantocratorbiblestudy.com/search/label/COPTICTV

May the Lord repose the precious soul of His Holiness and give us the strength to endure!
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« Reply #75 on: March 20, 2012, 10:38:39 AM »

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-03-20/egypt-coptic-pope-funeral/53663978/1?csp=34news

Another story on the memorial.
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« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2012, 11:22:29 AM »

The video of the Funeral Service. It's about 2 1/2 hrs long.

صلاة جناز قداسة البابا شنودة  (Funeral prayer for His Holiness Pope Shenouda)
http://youtu.be/D8GKvpD696s
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« Reply #77 on: March 20, 2012, 02:13:38 PM »

Memory eternal! May his soul dwell with the blessed, and a new successor govern the church wisely.
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« Reply #78 on: March 20, 2012, 03:24:22 PM »

Our beloved father , our beloved teacher baba Shenouda oh! How we will miss you! Thank you for all that you have done for us. For loving us and taking care of our need through your powerful prayer and all your spiritual works! Gentle loving Shepherd of the flock of Christ we thank God for giving us such holy wise and loving father and Shepherd. Pray for us that when we see you again that we may be worthy to be called your children! I love you baba , and all the Orthodox in Ethiopia love you deeply and are forever grateful that you have come to us when you could with your deep love and blessing. And because the Holy Spirit spoke through you many came back to The Church, and many more remained within The Church! Our sorrow is deep as seeing your face was a deep comfort for us! We pray that our beloved Copts may be comforted by the Lord from thier grief that is doubled by the sad time they live in. Throurgh your prayer and the prayers of all the saints , May Holy Alexandria be once more graced by Holy shepherd keeper and defender of the One True Faith and who is also beloved father of his children. Beloved father may you rest in the peace and joy of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and may your memory be Eternal! Amen!
 
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« Reply #79 on: March 20, 2012, 04:13:52 PM »

H.H Ignatious Zakka I, Patriarch of Antioch and All the East of the Syriac Orthodox Church at the funeral of H.H Pope Shenouda III.
http://youtu.be/nzZ-A6dZyPs

H.H Zakka I is 80 years old and has kidney failure and is confined to a wheel chair.
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« Reply #80 on: March 20, 2012, 06:11:08 PM »

H.H Ignatious Zakka I, Patriarch of Antioch and All the East of the Syriac Orthodox Church at the funeral of H.H Pope Shenouda III.
http://youtu.be/nzZ-A6dZyPs

H.H Zakka I is 80 years old and has kidney failure and is confined to a wheel chair.

May the Lord grant him many years to shephard his flock in peace.
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« Reply #81 on: March 20, 2012, 07:00:25 PM »

The video of the Funeral Service. It's about 2 1/2 hrs long.

صلاة جناز قداسة البابا شنودة  (Funeral prayer for His Holiness Pope Shenouda)
http://youtu.be/D8GKvpD696s

Thank you for posting this.
May his memory be eternal!
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« Reply #82 on: March 20, 2012, 08:00:49 PM »

Quote
On March 18, His Holiness Karekin II, Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of All Armenians, sent a letter of condolence to the Holy Synod, the clergy, and faithful Christians of the Coptic Orthodox Church, on the occasion of the death of His Holiness Shenouda III, Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of the See of St. Mark.

...

On March 20, a delegation representing the Holy Armenian Apostolic Church, will travel to Egypt to participate in the burial service of Pope Shenouda III - His Eminence Archbishop Norvan Zakarian;  Primate of the Armenian Diocese of France; His Grace Bishop Ashot  Mnatsakanian Primate of the Armenian Diocese of Egypt; and His Grace Bishop Datev Hakobian, Primate of the Armenian Diocese of Romania.

On March 21, at 16.00, in the Mother Cathedral of Holy Etchmiadzin, the Catholicos of All Armenians will preside over a Repose of Souls Service, to pray for peace for the spirit of the Pope and Patriarch of the Coptic Orthodox Church.

http://www.armenianchurch.org/index.jsp?sid=3&nid=2046&y=2012&m=2&d=19
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« Reply #83 on: March 20, 2012, 09:05:16 PM »

Memory Eternal!
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« Reply #84 on: March 21, 2012, 08:08:45 AM »

I'm genuinely curious, why do many people seem to not like Bishop Youannes? I've seen it a couple times now even on this board.

sheenj, a very wise man once said:

Take whatever perspective you get here with a grain of salt...  Wink

I'll leave it at that.
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« Reply #85 on: March 21, 2012, 12:34:09 PM »

Some beautiful words from His Holiness Abune Paulos, Patriarch of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church at the funeral.

صلاة بطريرك اثيوبية على قداسة البابا شنودة (Prayer of the Ethiopian Patriarch for HH Pope Shenouda)
http://youtu.be/w2v-_8DempE
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« Reply #86 on: March 21, 2012, 12:38:32 PM »

Is it too early to pray that he will be glorified and we can soon call him St. Shenouda?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 12:38:46 PM by biro » Logged

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« Reply #87 on: March 21, 2012, 12:43:43 PM »

Is it too early to pray that he will be glorified and we can soon call him St. Shenouda?

From the EO POV?
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« Reply #88 on: March 21, 2012, 12:44:54 PM »

I should hope we can revere saints across the 'dividing line.'
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« Reply #89 on: March 22, 2012, 07:16:11 AM »

Is it too early to pray that he will be glorified and we can soon call him St. Shenouda?

We are still waiting for the glorification of Pope Kyrillos.
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« Reply #90 on: March 22, 2012, 08:59:46 AM »

After the conclusion of last night's pan-Orthodox Vespers, Archbishop Nathaniel stated that we would be now serving a panachida for the repose of Pope Shenouda III.  He spoke a few words about him, and told a story of how he had met him....

When deciding which Bishop's Staff to bring with him for this weekend, he picked a rather sturdy, yet simple, wooden one.  At the time he had not known that Pope Shenouda had passed away.  He heard the news as he entered the church for services, and said it touched him, because the staff which he had picked, was gifted to him by Pope Shenouda.  

Your Archbishop served a service, in the Church, for someone outside of it?
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« Reply #91 on: March 22, 2012, 11:06:42 AM »

CoptoGeek linked a beautiful hymn about Blessed Shenouda here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9840.msg724256.html#msg724256
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« Reply #92 on: March 22, 2012, 01:44:49 PM »

http://allafrica.com/stories/201203220204.html

RCC Pope Benedict XVI's message of condolence.
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« Reply #93 on: March 22, 2012, 02:16:01 PM »

After the conclusion of last night's pan-Orthodox Vespers, Archbishop Nathaniel stated that we would be now serving a panachida for the repose of Pope Shenouda III.  He spoke a few words about him, and told a story of how he had met him....

When deciding which Bishop's Staff to bring with him for this weekend, he picked a rather sturdy, yet simple, wooden one.  At the time he had not known that Pope Shenouda had passed away.  He heard the news as he entered the church for services, and said it touched him, because the staff which he had picked, was gifted to him by Pope Shenouda.  

Your Archbishop served a service, in the Church, for someone outside of it?


Is outrage!  This is a case for Hyperdox Herman:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43223.msg713451.html#msg713451
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« Reply #94 on: March 22, 2012, 03:46:37 PM »

After the conclusion of last night's pan-Orthodox Vespers, Archbishop Nathaniel stated that we would be now serving a panachida for the repose of Pope Shenouda III.  He spoke a few words about him, and told a story of how he had met him....

When deciding which Bishop's Staff to bring with him for this weekend, he picked a rather sturdy, yet simple, wooden one.  At the time he had not known that Pope Shenouda had passed away.  He heard the news as he entered the church for services, and said it touched him, because the staff which he had picked, was gifted to him by Pope Shenouda.  

Your Archbishop served a service, in the Church, for someone outside of it?


Is outrage!  This is a case for Hyperdox Herman:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43223.msg713451.html#msg713451

Poke fun, but I do think it is a serious matter, because it promotes the false belief that the EO and OO are one Church.
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« Reply #95 on: March 22, 2012, 05:42:57 PM »

After the conclusion of last night's pan-Orthodox Vespers, Archbishop Nathaniel stated that we would be now serving a panachida for the repose of Pope Shenouda III.  He spoke a few words about him, and told a story of how he had met him....

When deciding which Bishop's Staff to bring with him for this weekend, he picked a rather sturdy, yet simple, wooden one.  At the time he had not known that Pope Shenouda had passed away.  He heard the news as he entered the church for services, and said it touched him, because the staff which he had picked, was gifted to him by Pope Shenouda.  

Your Archbishop served a service, in the Church, for someone outside of it?


Is outrage!  This is a case for Hyperdox Herman:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43223.msg713451.html#msg713451

Poke fun, but I do think it is a serious matter, because it promotes the false belief that the EO and OO are one Church.

the way I look at it is if the EP can do a Trisagion for Pope John Paul II when he passed, we can do one for Pope Shenouda as well. 
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« Reply #96 on: March 22, 2012, 05:48:17 PM »

After the conclusion of last night's pan-Orthodox Vespers, Archbishop Nathaniel stated that we would be now serving a panachida for the repose of Pope Shenouda III.  He spoke a few words about him, and told a story of how he had met him....

When deciding which Bishop's Staff to bring with him for this weekend, he picked a rather sturdy, yet simple, wooden one.  At the time he had not known that Pope Shenouda had passed away.  He heard the news as he entered the church for services, and said it touched him, because the staff which he had picked, was gifted to him by Pope Shenouda.  

Your Archbishop served a service, in the Church, for someone outside of it?


Is outrage!  This is a case for Hyperdox Herman:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43223.msg713451.html#msg713451

Poke fun, but I do think it is a serious matter, because it promotes the false belief that the EO and OO are one Church.
Why don't we drop this topic while we are ahead? This thread is to commemorate the life and death of HH Pope Shenouda, not to discuss ecumenical affairs.
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« Reply #97 on: March 22, 2012, 06:05:30 PM »

Poke fun, but I do think it is a serious matter, because it promotes the false belief that the EO and OO are one Church.

Serious or not, it's a matter for another thread.
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« Reply #98 on: March 22, 2012, 09:54:48 PM »

Poke fun, but I do think it is a serious matter, because it promotes the false belief that the EO and OO are one Church.

Serious or not, it's a matter for another thread.

completely agree.   police
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« Reply #99 on: March 22, 2012, 10:02:08 PM »

His Holiness' letter to the Church, to be released post-mortem:

Quote
I am your father and teacher, all of you are my children, listen to my commandments, for I ask you my beloved children, preserve and holdfast to the faith of the Holy Trinity.

I ask you my beloved children, love one another with a true love.

I ask you my beloved, do good with all humanity.

I ask my beloved children, do not let the world deceive you.

I ask you my beloved children, do not fall short or “be not eager” in the service of the Lord.

I ask you my beloved children, to pray without ceasing and tirelessly.

I ask you my beloved children, preserve your tongues from causing any division.

I ask of you my beloved children, to preserve the Holy Baptism that was granted to you.

I ask of you my beloved children, preserve your body pure for the Lord.

I ask of you my beloved children, do not let your  the light of your lamps to be extinquished.

I ask of you my beloved children, preserve the commandments that God gave to you.

I ask of you my beloved children, that the fear of God be within you.

God is my witness, my beloved children, that I did not keep any of God’s words from you…that I never sleep,  my beloved children while there was blame between me and anyone of you.

If you keep what I have told you, you will crush the head of the serpent and dragon.

If you keep what I have said to you, you will eat of the goodness of the earth.

If you keep what I have said to you, the luminous Cherubim will guard you.

If you keep what I have said to you, you will never lack of the Heavenly gifts.

I ask of you my beloved children, to ask of Christ for my soul, that it may have comfort in front of Him, and do not count my short comings, unknowingly and unwillingly.

 

 (Then he directs his talks to the Bishops, clergy and priests)

I ask for your love and I plead to your Reverence, to absolve me from you all.

And now, I am far from you and left you, and I cannot see your faces. And now I ask of you all, that you labor yourselves in prayers for me, and remember me  in the Holy Liturgies, that my Master may accept me to Him, and forgive me.

And I ask Christ, the Great Shepherd of Shepherds, that He may elect for you a righteous shepherd according to His Will and heart, that He may shepherd you and your matters and watch over the salvation of your souls.

Pope Shenouda III

Source information provided (-Serb1389) :
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« Reply #100 on: March 23, 2012, 02:17:36 PM »

A letter from the priests at St. Mina's Church in Holmdel, NJ, to the news website Patch.com:

http://holmdel.patch.com/articles/letter-st-mina-s-coptic-orthodox-church-mourns-passing-of-their-pope

Quote
During his Papacy, the Coptic Orthodox Church which had begun expanding outside of Egypt, grew at a greater pace and His Holiness appointed the first ever Bishops to preside over North American dioceses that now contain over 200 Coptic Orthodox Churches in the USA, including St. Mina’s Coptic Orthodox Church. Further, His Holiness’ continued work in Christian education continued as he published over 100 books in both Arabic and English.
 
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« Reply #101 on: March 23, 2012, 05:12:02 PM »

I apologize I forgot to provide a link of the Pope's last message.  I copied and pasted it from here:

http://holmdel.patch.com/articles/letter-st-mina-s-coptic-orthodox-church-mourns-passing-of-their-pope

The message originally read at his funeral here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gaFnxr1r70c

Translation video from CYC here (translation is off in a few places, which is why I copied and pasted the Holmdel Patch translation better):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxY_lN1Ta9k&feature=plcp&context=C4164062VDvjVQa1PpcFOZstqe-jA6Ou3JHTNeFWY0SExx0JRXsXM%3D
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« Reply #102 on: March 24, 2012, 03:33:08 PM »

An article about the requiem held in Armenia by Karekin II:

http://www.armenianchurch.org/index.jsp?sid=3&nid=2048&y=2012&m=2&d=21




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« Reply #103 on: March 24, 2012, 04:23:16 PM »

After the conclusion of last night's pan-Orthodox Vespers, Archbishop Nathaniel stated that we would be now serving a panachida for the repose of Pope Shenouda III.  He spoke a few words about him, and told a story of how he had met him....

When deciding which Bishop's Staff to bring with him for this weekend, he picked a rather sturdy, yet simple, wooden one.  At the time he had not known that Pope Shenouda had passed away.  He heard the news as he entered the church for services, and said it touched him, because the staff which he had picked, was gifted to him by Pope Shenouda.  

Your Archbishop served a service, in the Church, for someone outside of it?


Is outrage!  This is a case for Hyperdox Herman:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43223.msg713451.html#msg713451

Poke fun, but I do think it is a serious matter, because it promotes the false belief that the EO and OO are one Church.

It depends on one's ecclesiology, and also one's place in history. There have been several cases of greater or lesser unity since 451.
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« Reply #104 on: March 24, 2012, 04:37:22 PM »

Graciously accord, O Lord, to grant His Holiness rest in the region of the living forever, in the heavenly Jerusalem, in that place from whence all sickness and sighing have fled away.
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« Reply #105 on: March 24, 2012, 06:54:28 PM »



(Thanks to Mina for providing these words of H.H. Pope Shenouda III)


Selam

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« Reply #106 on: March 24, 2012, 09:06:43 PM »

Beautiful setting for the poem, Gebre. Well done.
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« Reply #107 on: March 24, 2012, 10:08:40 PM »

Is it true that this is a standard part of the liturgy for the burial of a Patriarch, and not a letter that H.H. left to be read?

I apologize I forgot to provide a link of the Pope's last message.  I copied and pasted it from here:

http://holmdel.patch.com/articles/letter-st-mina-s-coptic-orthodox-church-mourns-passing-of-their-pope

The message originally read at his funeral here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gaFnxr1r70c

Translation video from CYC here (translation is off in a few places, which is why I copied and pasted the Holmdel Patch translation better):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxY_lN1Ta9k&feature=plcp&context=C4164062VDvjVQa1PpcFOZstqe-jA6Ou3JHTNeFWY0SExx0JRXsXM%3D
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« Reply #108 on: March 24, 2012, 10:32:39 PM »

Is it true that this is a standard part of the liturgy for the burial of a Patriarch, and not a letter that H.H. left to be read?

I apologize I forgot to provide a link of the Pope's last message.  I copied and pasted it from here:

http://holmdel.patch.com/articles/letter-st-mina-s-coptic-orthodox-church-mourns-passing-of-their-pope

The message originally read at his funeral here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gaFnxr1r70c

Translation video from CYC here (translation is off in a few places, which is why I copied and pasted the Holmdel Patch translation better):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxY_lN1Ta9k&feature=plcp&context=C4164062VDvjVQa1PpcFOZstqe-jA6Ou3JHTNeFWY0SExx0JRXsXM%3D

No, this wasn't a standard.  This is according to the bishop who read the letter a letter written by His Holiness towards the end of his life, to be read after his passing.

The funeral was interesting.  There was a usual Coptic formality of funeral prayers for a bishop/patriarch mixed in with some informalities from the Ethiopian and Syriac prayers and eulogies.  The letter of His Holiness is an informality, as well as the message by the Acting Pope Metropolitan Bakhomious, which was an improv on his part, and was well put together.
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« Reply #109 on: March 24, 2012, 10:59:16 PM »

thanks, salpy for that news.
here is an extract from the english version:
At the beginning of the service, the Catholicos of All Armenians reflected on the blessed memory of Patriarch Shenouda, leader and shepherd of the Coptic Orthodox Church, and his  productive decades of service. “Through His efforts and devotion, the Coptic Orthodox Church experienced a renaissance through the founding of new churches, dioceses, parishes, and educational and charitable institutions.  His pontificate was marked by a revival of the ancient monastic tradition of the desert fathers.” His Holiness stated in part.

http://www.armenianchurch.org/index.jsp?sid=3&nid=2048&y=2012&m=2&d=21&lng=en
very lovely of them to do that.
 Smiley
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« Reply #110 on: March 24, 2012, 11:41:24 PM »

Metropolitan Pachomius, our acting Pope, giving the ending eulogy of the Pope, at the end of the funeral:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=evPUU6DJp_Q

A translation of the eulogy of Metropolitan Pachomius (the acting Pope) at the funeral of His Holiness, one of the most significant moments of this week:

In the name of the Coptic Church and her Holy Synod, with the hope of the resurrection, we bid farewell to His Holiness, our beloved father, our shepherd of shepherds, our archpriest of archpriests, our teacher, our father, the thirteenth apostle, His Holiness, our beloved father, Pope Shenouda III. With the hope of the resurrection, we bid him farewell.

[Applause]

And, my beloved, we are consoled by the departure of our father, on whose hands we were raised for more than 50 years. For he has lead the church since the first half of the past century. He has left a great treasure in the life of the church, if not the whole world. His Holiness, our beloved father, whose fatherhood we cherish, we shall not forget his work with us in our church. For he lead the church as a wise and skillful commander, he lead revivalist thought by the work of the Holy Spirit, and he preserved the church in its renaissance without digression. He preserved the church in its revival by the power of prayer. Liturgical prayers increased in the monasteries and the churches, and he undertook great work by the power of the Holy Spirit.

He effected a revivalist movement in the church when he published sound Orthodox teaching. So theological institutes increased. Thus Orthodox thought spread in all the corners of the inhabited world representing the thought of His Holiness, whom we cherish.

He lead the revivalist movement in the Coptic Church, and in his time, he consecrated by his hands many of the youth in the whole world. And there was great and strong guidance in the churches and institutions. This was powerful work, through the effect of the Holy Spirit, through whom He worked powerfully, for he is a man of the wilderness, a man of prayer, a man who taught, and a man who guided. And we shall not forget, to the end of the age, what Pope Shenouda has done in the life of the whole church and other churches.

[Applause]

My beloved, words cannot describe our beloved, our leader, and our shepherd, by whose hands we were reared. He left us an example of leadership. He was the prophet Moses of his time. He was the Joshua of his time. He was Nehemiah. He was John the Baptist. He was Paul the apostle. His leadership had an effect on the whole world.

His wise leadership made his children believe in the legitimacy of national unity. So he was a leader in national unity in our country.

[Applause]

By the power of his effective and authoritative work, he unified the churches of the world. Thus, there are [ecumenical] dialogues. And today we see in our midst our brothers from various churches in the whole world. The [Roman] Catholic Church, the Greek Orthodox, the Ethiopian churches, the Syrian churches, the Lutheran churches, the Anglican churches. It is this assembly, as a result of his wise leadership, in which we see our Christian brothers from the world, as well as our Muslim brothers from the Middle East, from the Arabian peninsula, and from Egypt. This is the fruit of the powerful command which Pope Shenouda III enjoyed. He is an example of leadership!

[Applause]

The work Pope Shenouda has undertaken required that he make disciples out of many. His age is the most significant age we have experienced in consecrating youth. They became his students that they would evangelize, become servants of the Word, and their voices spread throughout the inhabited world.

For words, my beloved, cannot describe the truth of this beloved man!

[Applause]

For words cannot describe what Pope Shenouda has accomplished in his generation! But this voice will persist until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in His Glory. He hears a voice today saying, “Enter into the joy of your master.”

[Applause]

And we pray! We pray that he might intercede for us, and that we might inherit with him a portion of the heavenly glory. And so we bid him farewell on the hope of the resurrection.

We say to him, “Go, our father, into the place of your rest! Remember us before the throne of grace. Pray that the Lord may complete our days in peace, just as your days were completed in peace.”

To our God is due all glory and honor, now and forever, Amen.


From a facebook friend:
http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=675440486677&id=198600321


What amazes me in this whole speech is the commanding voice of this Metropolitan, truly catches the attention of a loudly mourning people.
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« Reply #111 on: March 24, 2012, 11:47:37 PM »

I found this, which described a memorial service for His Holiness in the UK:

http://orthodoxbrit.tumblr.com/post/19843819231/pope-shenouda-iii-memorial-service-stevenage
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« Reply #112 on: March 25, 2012, 05:00:50 AM »



(Thanks to Mina for providing these words of H.H. Pope Shenouda III)


Selam




Thanks you so much for having posted his words  Smiley
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« Reply #113 on: March 25, 2012, 04:05:22 PM »



(Thanks to Mina for providing these words of H.H. Pope Shenouda III)


Selam



People are starting to call this letter, "HH Pope Shenouda's Will"
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« Reply #114 on: March 25, 2012, 04:14:14 PM »

HE Metropolitan Bishoy, giving the Synodal decree lead by HE Metropolitan Bakhomious (Pachomios) on what will happen next.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvKw9KHcYT0&feature=plcp&context=C464abe4VDvjVQa1PpcFOZstqe-jA6OitQOpNjjSQZUSyQ4NAYOOQ%3D

In essence, the decrees are the official naming of the Locum Tenens, Metropolitan Bakhomious of Beheira and the 5 Western Cities, that no candidates or election process would be presented until the 40th day commemoration of the Pope, and that the nomination and candidate registrations will be processed according to the canon laws of 1957 and 1971, and the process shouldn't take more than 2 months.

Process of electing new Pope explained here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4BDg9lQd6c
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« Reply #115 on: March 26, 2012, 02:04:36 AM »



(Thanks to Mina for providing these words of H.H. Pope Shenouda III)


Selam



People are starting to call this letter, "HH Pope Shenouda's Will"


Someone on facebook told me that this was not His Holiness's personal letter, but rather a standard letter of the Church that is read at the funeral of all departed Patriarchs. Do you know if this is true Mina?


Selam
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« Reply #116 on: March 26, 2012, 02:16:58 AM »



(Thanks to Mina for providing these words of H.H. Pope Shenouda III)


Selam



People are starting to call this letter, "HH Pope Shenouda's Will"


Someone on facebook told me that this was not His Holiness's personal letter, but rather a standard letter of the Church that is read at the funeral of all departed Patriarchs. Do you know if this is true Mina?


Selam

The bishop clearly said this is written by His Holiness Pope Shenouda to be read to his spiritual children.  Unless they standardized Pope Shenouda's letter at some time, at the very least the authorship I clear by the bishop who read it.  Anyone who knows Arabic can confirm this when listening to him.
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« Reply #117 on: March 26, 2012, 02:23:43 AM »

The video of the Funeral Service. It's about 2 1/2 hrs long.

صلاة جناز قداسة البابا شنودة  (Funeral prayer for His Holiness Pope Shenouda)
http://youtu.be/D8GKvpD696s

Go to 1:26:38 anyone who knows Arabic.  The bishop says "The words I am about to share with you are the words of HH Pope Shenouda, etc etc"
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« Reply #118 on: March 26, 2012, 02:27:23 AM »



(Thanks to Mina for providing these words of H.H. Pope Shenouda III)


Selam



People are starting to call this letter, "HH Pope Shenouda's Will"


Someone on facebook told me that this was not His Holiness's personal letter, but rather a standard letter of the Church that is read at the funeral of all departed Patriarchs. Do you know if this is true Mina?


Selam

The bishop clearly said this is written by His Holiness Pope Shenouda to be read to his spiritual children.  Unless they standardized Pope Shenouda's letter at some time, at the very least the authorship I clear by the bishop who read it.  Anyone who knows Arabic can confirm this when listening to him.

OK, thanks Mina!


Selam
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« Reply #119 on: March 26, 2012, 08:58:31 AM »

I couldn't help but be moved by this picture.

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« Reply #120 on: March 26, 2012, 09:13:31 AM »

Mina, someone kindly posted this in another forum:

I am your father and your teacher [of the faith]...
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/532196_189567047825215_100003157632301_306557_2133043173_n.jpg

The sermon does appear to be part of the funeral rites given in the name of the deceased Patriarch.
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« Reply #121 on: March 26, 2012, 09:53:07 AM »

Mina, someone kindly posted this in another forum:

I am your father and your teacher [of the faith]...
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/532196_189567047825215_100003157632301_306557_2133043173_n.jpg

The sermon does appear to be part of the funeral rites given in the name of the deceased Patriarch.
Interesting...so confusing.  If this is true I stand corrected
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« Reply #122 on: March 27, 2012, 04:36:24 PM »

Memorial Service of HH Pope Shenouda in St. Mary's Coptic Church, East Brunswick, NJ, March 25, 2012:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wPO4RdWD8bY#!

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« Reply #123 on: March 29, 2012, 09:36:10 AM »

Here's a short news clip (in Armenian) of the Requiem Service by HH Karekin II.  Salpy posted some pictures of it above.

Requiem Service for His Holiness Shenouda III, Patriarch of the Coptic Orthodox Church

On March 21, in the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin, under the Presidency of His Holiness Karekin II, Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of All Armenians, a requiem service was offered for the recently departed His Holiness Shenouda III, Patriarch of the Coptic Orthodox Church, Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of All Africa on the Holy Apostolic See of Saint Mark.

http://youtu.be/Znt6AHGHe38
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« Reply #124 on: March 30, 2012, 06:44:09 PM »

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I personally would agree with Stavro on this one.  Whenever a bishop was chosen to the Papacy, they were not "ordained" but rather "consecrated" or "celebrated" into the position.  Only HH Pope Kyrillos VI was "ordained" into the papacy since he was only a priest monk Fr. Mina at the time of his choosing.  But I personally do not like the idea of "general bishops", nor do I wish that a bishop be put into the Papacy despite the contemporary precedents.  I also believe the voting should be changed a bit.  Why not include the church priests, deacons, and archdeacons of the world, as well as those who are in charge of service and prominent church committee members?  Why this conspicuous and nowadays useless "Maglis Millee"?  I don't know...but we shall see.  According to my father, who was in his late teens and a Sunday School teacher at the time of transition into the new Pope, it wasn't a bright moment for the Church, unfortunately.

I actually agree with you on every single word above, which is the first time in 10 years.

We inherited the Maglis El-Meli from the Turkish time which constituted of traitors and sell-outs who were spies for the occupier and made the life of the poor Pope miserable. Upon the request of Pope Kyrillos, it was disintegrated and removed by President Nasser in 1960's, and their members turned over to investigation regarding numerous financial discrepancies. I am not sure when it came back to existence, but nowadays its members are the fat Coptic cats, billionaires, or Coptic politicians, who exercise their political influence inside the Church.

The reason voters do not include prominent servants or deacons (if we have any left) is their independence and difficulty to influence to vote for this bishop or the other. Bishops are candidates and members of the election committee in the same time, in a clear conflict of interest, and  they put the rules that serves their candidacy best. They sit on the candidate nomination council and exclude all prominent monks who might pose a threat to their candidacy.

Quote
As for HG Bishop Youannes, I have no view of him except that I enjoy his tasbehas.  That's pretty much it.  I'm not fond of his sermons, but I've never seen anything wrong with them.  But he does have his controversies with the people of things that I am not fully aware of to judge completely

You will have the next 40 years of his blessed Papacy to judge.

 
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« Reply #125 on: March 30, 2012, 07:14:12 PM »

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The reason for this is that his ordination as a Patriarch, can be seen as an addition to his diocese, and not a transfer, assuming that no bishop is ordained in his place, as was the case with our late patriarch.

1. Does this Bishop get the gift of the Holy Spirit to be the bishop of the annexed Patriarchate? In what way, if there is no laying of hands?

2. Adding to your existing diocese is what Bishop Meletius did in the Papacy of Peter, Seal of martyrs, adding Alexandria to his bishophery, and this action was the very reason which inspired this particular Nicene canon in the first place.

3. It is a slick way around the canon, and a clever one, but it was never applied in the Church at all. When Pope Timothy forced St. Gregory the Theologian out of Constantinople in 381, when he annexed it to his episcopate, the supporters of the great saint did not use this excuse nor was the saint interested in contesting the council decision. He was corrected, and therefore remained a great saint.

4. Each and every time they want to violate the canons and put one of them on the throne, they come up with all kind of excuses and explanations, and get us debating "annexing versus transfer", "general bishop versus episcopate bishop", and "political necessity and abilities of the bishop that a monk does not have" and so on until ....oooops, we did it again. We have a bishop on the throne of St.Mark, and we have to wait decades until we correct this situation.

5.Can you name one example in which an ambitious bishop who decides to violate the canons has actually left his diocese for a smaller one, or annexed a poor diocese to his richer one, in order to serve it? Never, for it is a career move and a promotion.

Quote
We are simply going through the candidates, requesting God's will to be enforced. Therefore, the only person you are ordering is our Lord, and I find it inconceivable of you to do so, for it is his church and his flock.


There is something called synergy between God and man in Orthodox Christianity, and its model is the incarnation. The Spirit works in those who observe the commandments. Those who openly violate the canons cannot invoke the Spirit in the process when they have just violated the inspired Church canons.

Quote
PS: I do not know who you are addressing when you say "Do not pick Bishop Youaness," for we are not "picking" anyone. 

We are, even by the admission of Pope Shenouda of blessed memory.

We pick and choose because we have rules to regulate the process. We have committees to screen the candidates and supposedly exclude heretics and suspicious nominees, and in most cases rivals, and we have elections. This is the part of men. God's inspires and leads throughout the whole process, and not just at the ridiculous casting lot stage, provided there are men of God involved in the process.

Men of God do not violate the canons of God. Men of God do no knowingly and consciously disregard the divinely inspired Church teachings. When God is out of men, men are left to their own logic which is always brilliant to them , and foolish to God.

In any case, they already decided that bishops of all kinds can be selected. Any discussion should be postponed 40 years when it won't matter to most of us anyways. 
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« Reply #126 on: March 31, 2012, 06:02:19 AM »

if someone else full of love, wisdom and care like our dear reposed pope shenouda 3rd becomes patriarch in apparent violation of some law or tradition, then i will not fight it.
i have several friends who knew baba shenouda personally, and many others who met him several times and from their testimony and from what i have seen of his lectures, poems and homilies, he was able to steer a careful political path in the midst of great persecution. not only that, but he loved all of the coptic people, and indeed all people very greatly and never tired from his fasting and prayer and taking care of those he loved.

even in his last illness, he did not hold back from teaching and guiding God's church, but took care of us all with an open heart and all honesty and love. i have studied church history and been a member of many churches outside the orthodox church and i have never seen a spiritual leader like baba shenouda. may the Lord give him rest and peace as he intercedes for us before the throne of grace.
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« Reply #127 on: April 08, 2012, 10:19:13 AM »

Memory eternal  Sad
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« Reply #128 on: April 29, 2012, 03:28:58 PM »

Two articles after the 40th day commemoration of HH Pope Shenouda came up in Al Ahram talking about the nomination process:

Quote
According to MENA, the favourites so far are Bishop Moussa, the head of Youth Bishopric; Bishop Younas, the secretary of former Pope Shenouda and Bishop Bishoy, the secretary of the Holy Synod. Whilst Bishop Youssef of the South America Bishopric and Bishop Kirollos of Milan have received support from abroad.

The candidacy committee started its work days after services were held across the country to mark the 40th day since the death of Pope Shenouda III.
from http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/40302.aspx

And:

Quote
Assiut Governorate Bishop Abram said on Saturday that seven names have been nominated to succeed the late Pope Shenouda III though elections are to be unveiled on 15 May.
While speaking to Al-Ahram's Arabic site, Abram, the secretary of the candidacy committee, refused to disclose the identities of the candidates who applied to take part in the elections over the past couple of days.
from http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/40364.aspx

So...that's the update thus far.
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« Reply #129 on: April 30, 2012, 03:56:11 PM »

I pray that the election goes well.
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« Reply #130 on: May 02, 2012, 12:44:18 PM »

HG Bishop Angaelos posted this "timeline" of the process for enthroning the next Patriarch

http://twitter.com/#!/BishopAngaelos/status/196157770632937472/photo/1/large
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« Reply #131 on: May 02, 2012, 01:11:19 PM »

I couldn't help but be moved by this picture.


It's things like this that prevent me from giving up hope on living with the Muslims.

Btw, for those wretches who cannot read Arabic, it says "And when he completed the days of his service, he returned to his Father/Lk. 1:23/and He called the saint of the age."
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« Reply #132 on: May 02, 2012, 03:24:12 PM »

HG Bishop Youssef of the Southern US answers the controversial question, "Can a diocesan bishop be elected Pope?"

http://suscopts.org/press/2012/apr/28/can-a-diocesan-bishop-be-nominated-for-pope/
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« Reply #133 on: May 02, 2012, 03:29:22 PM »

I pray that the election goes well.

Me too.
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« Reply #134 on: May 02, 2012, 03:57:34 PM »

Thank you Isa that was quite wonderful! and I too share your sentiment on the rest.

Thank you for the updates everyone. we will continue to pray.
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« Reply #135 on: May 09, 2012, 12:12:59 PM »

Elimination of bishops of dioceses is being promoted by others candidates, the general bishops and their supporters, who cite the canons to eliminate their strong rivals. They are aided by the fact that at the time the canons were written, there was no ridiculous rank called "General bishop" and every bishop had a diocese.

When Anba Youssef writes about the subject, he avoids mentioning that the general bishop is also not eligible to avoid embarassing the memory of the departed Pope, who was a bishop before his appointment to Papacy. Whether he was a general or dioscese bisop is another story. 


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« Reply #136 on: May 09, 2012, 02:42:29 PM »

Elimination of bishops of dioceses is being promoted by others candidates, the general bishops and their supporters, who cite the canons to eliminate their strong rivals. They are aided by the fact that at the time the canons were written, there was no ridiculous rank called "General bishop" and every bishop had a diocese.

When Anba Youssef writes about the subject, he avoids mentioning that the general bishop is also not eligible to avoid embarassing the memory of the departed Pope, who was a bishop before his appointment to Papacy. Whether he was a general or dioscese bisop is another story. 



If we demote the general bishops to khor-episcopi, I think we'll be alright. lol
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« Reply #137 on: May 11, 2012, 01:17:24 PM »

Or we abolish this general bishop rank started by H.H. Pope Shenouda and ordain khori episcopos if there is a need to.
 
The rank of general bishop was initiated by the Pope to gain majority in the Holy Synod over the heavy weight established bishops who opposed the Pope. The general bishop is really not a bishop, has no jurisdiction over any congregation or church, cannot deal in financial matters to the "place" he is assigned to and is totally helpless when it comes to ordinations as he has no such power. He cannot even ordain his priests.

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« Reply #138 on: May 11, 2012, 01:42:08 PM »

Or we abolish this general bishop rank started by H.H. Pope Shenouda and ordain khori episcopos if there is a need to.
 
The rank of general bishop was initiated by the Pope to gain majority in the Holy Synod over the heavy weight established bishops who opposed the Pope. The general bishop is really not a bishop, has no jurisdiction over any congregation or church, cannot deal in financial matters to the "place" he is assigned to and is totally helpless when it comes to ordinations as he has no such power. He cannot even ordain his priests.

Not necessarily.  HH Pope Shenouda did multiply the office of general bishop by quite an unnecessary number, I would agree, but the general bishopric actually started with HH Pope Kyrillos VI.  Granted, +HHPK did not ordain general bishops without a title, such as the bishop of higher education, the bishop of youth, etc.  +HHPS on the other hand ordained many general bishops without a title.  Either way, with or without, I agree with you that I am against this position as well.  A diocesan bishop should be the one who appoints specific committed members of the Church for youth, education, etc. in the ranks lower than bishop, such as khor episcopi, or even the deaconate.
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« Reply #139 on: May 11, 2012, 02:24:13 PM »

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A diocesan bishop should be the one who appoints specific committed members of the Church for youth, education, etc. in the ranks lower than bishop, such as khor episcopi, or even the deaconate.

True. I agree.

Quote
I would agree, but the general bishopric actually started with HH Pope Kyrillos VI.  Granted, +HHPK did not ordain general bishops without a title, such as the bishop of higher education, the bishop of youth, etc.

An episcopate is not necessarily defined by geographic boundaries, and H.H. Pope Kyrillos gave the ordained bishops full authority over their episcopate. The general bishop does not have such authority. Sometimes, a general bishop is doing all the work of a bishop but is deprived of the authority as he has to refer to the Pope in every decision. 

Anba Antonius Marcos, for example, has been serving for 40 years in Africa, and is still a general bishop, unable to choose his priests and deacons and he gets priests sent to him to serve with him who know that he has no authority over them.

I also understand the motive for the general bishops to climb the throne of Papacy. They do not know what happens to them with the new Pope.     
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« Reply #140 on: May 30, 2012, 06:26:14 PM »

A preliminary list has been released:

Diocesan bishops:
Metropolitan Bishoy of Damietta diocese
Bishop Kyrillos of Milan diocese
Bishop Paphnutios of Samalout diocese

General bishops:
Bishop Youannis, general bishop under the Pope serving as secretary of the Synod
Bishop Rafael, general bishop under the Pope serving parts of Cairo
Bishop Tawadros, general bishop under Metropolitan Bakhomious serving the diocese of el-Beheira
Bishop Boutros, general bishop under the Pope serving parts of Cairo

Hegumen priest monks (last name indicates the monastery they're from):
Fr. Rafael Ava Mina
Fr. Maximos El-Antony
Fr. Shenouda Ava Bishoy
Fr. Anastasi El-Samuely
Fr. Bakhomious El-Souriany
Fr. Daniel El-Souriany
Fr. Seraphim El-Souriany
Fr. Bishoy Ava Paula
Fr. Sawiris Ava Paula
Fr. Pigol Ava Paula

Source: http://davidbebawy.com/2012/05/30/preliminary-list-of-papal-candidates/

These names will be published on all major Egyptian media sources for any critisms or praises from the public. From this list, a final list of 5-9 candidates will be chosen by the Nominating Committee.

Recently also HG Bishop Serapion of California and Hawaii and the priests of his diocese have released a document disapproving of diocesan bishops to accept the candidacy of the Papacy, citing many ancient and recent canons, as late as 1865, condemning any diocesan bishop to excommunication for any bishop who even tried.

Source: http://www.lacopts.org/sites/default/files/English%20Statement%20of%20the%20Clergy%20of%20the%20Diocese%20of%20Los%20Angeles.pdf

HG Bishop Serapion is also a member of the nominating committee and may influence at the very least the removal of the 3 diocesan bishops in the list.

May the Lord guide this process in peace so that we may be provided for a righteous shephard of the our holy Coptic Orthodox Church.  Amen! Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #141 on: May 31, 2012, 02:57:53 PM »

Lord have mercy!
it is a difficult time and we pray for God to bring unity and peace and love among the Christians and to still the storms of argument and dissention.
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« Reply #142 on: May 31, 2012, 11:41:21 PM »

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Fr. Rafael Ava Mina

The close disciple of H.H. Pope Kyrillos VI. He is to Pope Kyrillos what Elisha was to Elijah.

Quote
These names will be published on all major Egyptian media sources for any criticisms or praises from the public. From this list, a final list of 5-9 candidates will be chosen by the Nominating Committee.

I think the 1957 bylaws indicate 5-7 candidates in the final round. It is not clear what the criteria of selection is. 
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« Reply #143 on: June 01, 2012, 12:21:53 AM »


May the Lord guide this process in peace so that we may be provided for a righteous shephard of the our holy Coptic Orthodox Church.  Amen! Lord have mercy!


Continued prayers....  Cry  Amen! Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #144 on: July 28, 2012, 02:50:34 PM »

Just an update, what the California diocese has started lead to more bishops publicly supporting the idea that a diocesan bishop should not be Pope of Alexandria due to the ancient canons. Even the British Orthodox Church lead a public support of the the California diocese's declaration:

http://britishorthodox.org/3414/british-orthodox-synod-issues-statement-regarding-the-papal-election/

Quote
The Synod, finding itself in complete agreement with the explanation of the canons and traditions of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate found in the statement issued by the Diocese of Los Angeles, wishes to express its own view that the canons and traditions lead us to understand that the translation of a diocesan bishop to the Patriarchate of Alexandria should be avoided outside of the most serious circumstances, and that the present election does not represent such a serious circumstance.
 It is therefore our humble and respectful opinion that a diocesan bishop should not be considered for election to the Patriarchate of Alexandria at this time.

This lead to His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy replying in condemnation to such actions by the dioceses claiming that such actions would lead to condemning the Coptic Church's Apostolic lineage in the 20th Century, as well as using some historical examples and opinions from the late HH Pope Shenouda III:

http://www.metroplit-bishoy.org/files/eng%20new%20patriarcal%20nomination.PDF

Quote
If we unknowingly apply--as some do today--the excommunications of the synod of 1873, on those metropolitans and bishops, this would lead us to a catastrophe for our church, because all those metropolitans fall under this excommunication (which we have already shown as null and void), and withthem would be Pope Youannis XIX and all bishops and metropolitans whom he ordained thereafter, and likewise Pope Yusab and al bishops and metropolitans whom he ordained, etc... until we reach the ordination of Pope Cyril VI where we find that only Anba Athanasius Metropolitan of Bahnasa and Beni-Sweif remains who was ordained by Pope Cyril V, and yet he is unable to officiate the ordination of Pope Cyril Vi solo according to the canons of the church... . Furthermore, by participating in the ordination of Pope Youanni XIX he also would be under the excommunication of the synod of 1873; excommunications which we do not confess or admit for all successive generations for all the reasons above-mentioned.  We likewise do not accept it for the current conditions which would lead to--God forbid--breaking the chain of apostolic succession in our church.

This lead to a rebuttal and refutations by Their Graces Bishop Youssef of the Southern US and Bishop Serapion of California, mostly in Arabic.  A summary of HG Bishop Youssef's rebuttals in English, which also included statements from HH the late Pope Shenouda III and historical precedants, can be found here:

http://www.lacopts.org/sites/default/files/canadioceseanbishopbenominatedpope_en.pdf

Quote
We also note that Patriarchs were chosen from a variety of classes of people, for example, Patriarchs were chosen from among monks, lay persons, married persons, tradesmen, foreigners, theologians etc.. , but never from among diocesan bishops for over 19 centuries, in spite of the presence of giants among the bishops like Abba Severus of Ashmunein, Abba Sarbamon the veiled (Abu Tarha) and Abba Abraam bishop of Fayium and others. We can find no reason for this other than the adherence of the fathers and their strict observance of the ecclesiastical canons and the Apostolic admonitions.

The Arabic articles by the US bishops can be read here:
http://www.lacopts.org/sites/default/files/canadioceseanbishopbenominatedpope_ar.pdf
http://lacopts.org/sites/default/files/Arabic%20Research%20-%20Bishop%20Serapion.pdf

An English translation is promised soon for these articles.

This seems to have lead to an interesting development here in North America.  A group of anonymous servants and clergy in North America have developed a website giving the bios of the Papal candidates (which carry an obvious bias), supporting the US bishops condemnation of allowing diocesan bishops to be candidates for the Papacy, and boldly asking for autocephaly if the Coptic Church in fact selects a diocesan bishop to be Patriarch.

http://hope4cope.com/?page_id=94

Quote
To His Eminence Metropolitan Pachomius and Members of the Nominating Committee,

As Coptic Orthodox Christians who love our beloved Church and are obedient to Her teachings expressed through the Holy Scriptures and the Holy Tradition of the Fathers, Councils and Canons of the Church, we pray that the Lord would maintain the unity and integrity of His Church through your voices, by eliminating the bishops and metropolitans from the pool of electable candidates for the Patriarchal election. As Orthodox Christians who maintain that man is saved through the synergy of God’s grace and man’s will, should the nominating committee fail to remove the metropolitans and bishops from the pool of electable candidates for patriarch, we as a Coptic people plan to exercise our will upon the church and call for an autocephalous Coptic Orthodox Church in North America, which is capable of governing Herself with integrity according to the canons, traditions and patristic spirit of our beloved Orthodoxy, independent from the mother Church in Egypt.

Please find below a running list of Coptic Orthodox Christian clergy and laity, which have electronically signed, supporting this movement.

May the Lord grant wisdom and strength to all of you, as we maintain hope for the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchal Election and the continued unity of our beloved Church.

This has become quite a contentious period for the Coptic Church and fears of schism seem to surface because of these elections.  Please pray for the Coptic Church that the Lord may grant a fitting solution and a shepherd to unite all these factions and solve the problems that seem to bring a lot of harm.

God bless.
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« Reply #145 on: July 28, 2012, 05:46:01 PM »

may the Lord have mercy and not permit any schism.
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« Reply #146 on: July 28, 2012, 06:01:08 PM »

Could this lead to a cessation of communion with our sister OO Churches?
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« Reply #147 on: July 29, 2012, 02:32:50 AM »

Could this lead to a cessation of communion with our sister OO Churches?
Not sure...I don't know how serious this "call for autocephaly" can be.  Personally, I support the call to remove bishops and metropolitans from the list of candidates, but not to the extent of a call for autocephaly.  That may lead to a North American schism in and of itself, probably similar to the Indian/Syrian situation.
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« Reply #148 on: July 29, 2012, 02:38:52 AM »

Could this lead to a cessation of communion with our sister OO Churches?

?
Not to underestimate the pain an internal split would cause the Copts, but why do you think it would impact the relationship of the Coptic Church (or the relationship of two parts of the Coptic Church) to other OO churches? Is the relationship of the Coptic Church to the rest of the OO communion somehow part of the debate about who should be the next Pope?
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« Reply #149 on: July 29, 2012, 10:25:47 AM »

Could this lead to a cessation of communion with our sister OO Churches?
Not sure...I don't know how serious this "call for autocephaly" can be.  Personally, I support the call to remove bishops and metropolitans from the list of candidates, but not to the extent of a call for autocephaly.  That may lead to a North American schism in and of itself, probably similar to the Indian/Syrian situation.
I really hope a candidate is chosen that will sufficiently satisfy the desire of everyone, without requiring a schism of any sort. If, God forbid, this occurs, with which faction would the BOC stay in Communion with?

Could this lead to a cessation of communion with our sister OO Churches?

?
Not to underestimate the pain an internal split would cause the Copts, but why do you think it would impact the relationship of the Coptic Church (or the relationship of two parts of the Coptic Church) to other OO churches? Is the relationship of the Coptic Church to the rest of the OO communion somehow part of the debate about who should be the next Pope?
Hopefully not, but we OOs are divided enough, so the last thing we need is a Schism within the Coptic Church.
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« Reply #150 on: July 29, 2012, 12:04:43 PM »

I don't know too much about Coptic Church politics, but I would like to point out that His Holiness Pope Shenouda served as a bishop prior to being elected pope. I know it's against the canons that OO still take very seriously (we really don't do this in the EOC anymore) and people did protest His Holiness' election, but it went through and he governed the Coptic Church for 40 years.
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« Reply #151 on: July 29, 2012, 01:22:56 PM »

I don't know too much about Coptic Church politics, but I would like to point out that His Holiness Pope Shenouda served as a bishop prior to being elected pope. I know it's against the canons that OO still take very seriously (we really don't do this in the EOC anymore) and people did protest His Holiness' election, but it went through and he governed the Coptic Church for 40 years.
He was a bishop but he was never enthroned as the head of a diocese. A so called "general bishop" if you will.
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« Reply #152 on: July 29, 2012, 01:35:19 PM »

I thought he had been "Bishop of Education" or something like that? Anyway, the whole "General Bishop" thing is weird to me. I love Bp. Moussa as much as anybody, but I don't understand how someone can be "Bishop of Youth Affairs" or whatever his title is. I thought that if you were a bishop, it meant you presided over a particular diocese, not some abstract cause or subgroup within the Church as a whole. If that's not the case (anymore), then how can we defend the idea that it is wrong for a bishop to be elevated to the Papacy, if they aren't all in fact tied to a diocese?

When did the whole general bishop thing start, anyway? Is there apostolic precedent for it? Maybe I just don't understand it properly. I would appreciate some education on this issue, please.
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« Reply #153 on: July 29, 2012, 01:54:34 PM »

I thought he had been "Bishop of Education" or something like that? Anyway, the whole "General Bishop" thing is weird to me. I love Bp. Moussa as much as anybody, but I don't understand how someone can be "Bishop of Youth Affairs" or whatever his title is. I thought that if you were a bishop, it meant you presided over a particular diocese, not some abstract cause or subgroup within the Church as a whole. If that's not the case (anymore), then how can we defend the idea that it is wrong for a bishop to be elevated to the Papacy, if they aren't all in fact tied to a diocese?

When did the whole general bishop thing start, anyway? Is there apostolic precedent for it? Maybe I just don't understand it properly. I would appreciate some education on this issue, please.
IIRC, Pope Kirillos was the one who started this, supposedly because he had a surplus of qualified episcopal candidates (educated and what not) but a shortage of sees.
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« Reply #154 on: July 29, 2012, 02:00:16 PM »

I don't know too much about Coptic Church politics, but I would like to point out that His Holiness Pope Shenouda served as a bishop prior to being elected pope. I know it's against the canons that OO still take very seriously (we really don't do this in the EOC anymore) and people did protest His Holiness' election, but it went through and he governed the Coptic Church for 40 years.
HH was a bishop for social services, or a general bishop.  There's some disagreement as to what a "general bishop" is since it has no precedent in the past.  While the jobs of a general bishop is similar to a chorepiscopos, a general bishop still has full membership of the Synod.  HH Pope Kyrillos VI (+HHPKVI), predecessor to HH Pope Shenouda III (+HHPSIII), started the role of a general bishop for social services.  At some point, some people see social services as equivalent to a diocese.  +HHPSIII (as Bishop Shenouda) was quite irate at +HHPKVI for designating another bishop as bishop of higher education as interfering with his "diocese of education".  In addition, it seems that +HHPSIII as a layman wrote against HH Pope Yousab mentioning how when the church broke this particular canon, there was a subsequent "26 years of darkness and corruption."

In any case, +HHPSIII seems to have changed his mind, perhaps seeing that his bishopric was not a diocesan bishopric anymore.  In addition, under his administration, he multiplied the office of general bishops partially for the purpose of gaining power in the Synod, which in his early days in the throne were not favorable for him.

Now +HHPSIII lead the church well, but his mistake seems to be not solving this canonicity issue in due time that he also had a problem with before being a monk.  His other mistake is the high number of "aimless" general bishops in the synod who seem to be useless.  On top of this, we are having a patristic revival in the Coptic church, and more of her members are educated than ever before.  There is a precedent indeed that the few times bishops became popes (only on the 20th century) have been dark times for the Coptic church.

Personally, because of the implication of being married to a diocese, I agree that there should be no bishop who should be pope. That doesn't take away the fact that +HHPSIII has done more good for the church, despite any drawbacks he may have had.  St Gregory Nazienzen was a great theologian and saint of the church, but his actions to move from one diocese to another was not without harsh criticism, and lead him to resign from his office, which was another cause of admiration for him, so that he avoided more trouble for the church.  I think it's pretty clear there is a growing number in the Coptic church that are not joking around about sticking with this particular canon, and for the sake of the peace of the church, I hope these candidates who are are bishops take a page from St Gregory and step down.

And I hope whoever the new pope would be to get rid of the office of general bishop or clarify then as chorepiscopos.  I also am against bishops of social services.  I believe these are the functions of deacons and archdeacons.
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« Reply #155 on: July 29, 2012, 02:07:21 PM »

Also check this website out:

canon15.nicaea.ca

This represents the churches of Canada, and they included many articles in history to support this principle.  I also understand a Coptic priest in Australia also supports the California diocese move.  This is no joke.  The Coptic church worldwide seems to be getting quite vocal.
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« Reply #156 on: July 29, 2012, 02:08:20 PM »

I thought he had been "Bishop of Education" or something like that? Anyway, the whole "General Bishop" thing is weird to me. I love Bp. Moussa as much as anybody, but I don't understand how someone can be "Bishop of Youth Affairs" or whatever his title is. I thought that if you were a bishop, it meant you presided over a particular diocese, not some abstract cause or subgroup within the Church as a whole. If that's not the case (anymore), then how can we defend the idea that it is wrong for a bishop to be elevated to the Papacy, if they aren't all in fact tied to a diocese?

When did the whole general bishop thing start, anyway? Is there apostolic precedent for it? Maybe I just don't understand it properly. I would appreciate some education on this issue, please.
IIRC, Pope Kirillos was the one who started this, supposedly because he had a surplus of qualified episcopal candidates (educated and what not) but a shortage of sees.

Thanks, Isa. I didn't think it was an old practice, but I didn't know exactly when/why it started.
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« Reply #157 on: July 29, 2012, 03:11:31 PM »

dzheremi,

There is a disagreement as to who REALLY started the general bishop title, as you can see with Stavro's earlier post here:

Quote
A diocesan bishop should be the one who appoints specific committed members of the Church for youth, education, etc. in the ranks lower than bishop, such as khor episcopi, or even the deaconate.

True. I agree.

Quote
I would agree, but the general bishopric actually started with HH Pope Kyrillos VI.  Granted, +HHPK did not ordain general bishops without a title, such as the bishop of higher education, the bishop of youth, etc.

An episcopate is not necessarily defined by geographic boundaries, and H.H. Pope Kyrillos gave the ordained bishops full authority over their episcopate. The general bishop does not have such authority. Sometimes, a general bishop is doing all the work of a bishop but is deprived of the authority as he has to refer to the Pope in every decision. 

Anba Antonius Marcos, for example, has been serving for 40 years in Africa, and is still a general bishop, unable to choose his priests and deacons and he gets priests sent to him to serve with him who know that he has no authority over them.

I also understand the motive for the general bishops to climb the throne of Papacy. They do not know what happens to them with the new Pope.     

I think it's important to know that even if one's diocese is a social service, I wonder can one ordain his own priests and deacons in this social service?  I think the title of general bishops if not started by His Holiness Pope St. Kyrillos, certainly was evolved from him into bishops without either dioceses or social services, but literally bishops that belong to the Pope or Metropolitans.

Some have speculated, and this is only a speculation, that HH Pope St. Kyrillos ordained those persons to be general bishops not necessarily based on a need for specific social services, but based on HH's knowledge of certain peoples' ambitions to the papacy, and how he wished to disqualify them from the papacy by such ordinations, along with giving them a job they're good at.
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« Reply #158 on: July 29, 2012, 03:17:15 PM »

Also check this website out:

canon15.nicaea.ca

This represents the churches of Canada, and they included many articles in history to support this principle.  I also understand a Coptic priest in Australia also supports the California diocese move.  This is no joke.  The Coptic church worldwide seems to be getting quite vocal.
Actually, even before this controversy started I was hoping the new Patriarch would be from a Monastic community. Do you think these individuals would really commit schism if a Diocesan Bishop were chosen?
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« Reply #159 on: July 29, 2012, 03:23:24 PM »

Also check this website out:

canon15.nicaea.ca

This represents the churches of Canada, and they included many articles in history to support this principle.  I also understand a Coptic priest in Australia also supports the California diocese move.  This is no joke.  The Coptic church worldwide seems to be getting quite vocal.
Actually, even before this controversy started I was hoping the new Patriarch would be from a Monastic community. Do you think these individuals would really commit schism if a Diocesan Bishop were chosen?
I don't know how serious this "call for autocephaly" is.  I do not like it personally, even if it gets to the extent that the a bishop in fact became our next patriarch.  I always believe to avoid schisms even at parish level as much as possible and work from the grass roots to fight whatever is wrong with the church.

If you read the FAQs if the hope4cope website, they write this:

Quote
The servants behind this website would like to assure all who are considering signing the letter that a few members of the Holy Synod have been informed of the plans for this website, its mission, and its objective. These members, whose names shall remain protected for the same reasons mentioned above, have asked to be kept informed of the results of our efforts. In light of their neutrality and interest, this website is a lawful and legitimate means for the congregation of North America to express their views.

The servants of this website give their unconditional promise never to share the personal information of those who choose to sign the letter with anyone except for the interested members of the Holy Synod.

It is not the intention of the creators of this website to coerce anyone into signing this online petition but rather we encourage that thought be placed into the final decision, as with any other expression of free will.

http://hope4cope.com/?page_id=308
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« Reply #160 on: July 29, 2012, 03:28:43 PM »

I have to commend the Copts on taking this canon so seriously. The Church is plagued by so many problems - career bishops being one of them - which were already anticipated and dealt with quite adequately in the earliest centuries.
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« Reply #161 on: August 02, 2012, 07:44:03 PM »

HG Bishop Serapion's article has been translated, giving a comprehensive history of the tradition of not choosing diocesan bishops, and what happened when that tradition was broken:

http://www.lacopts.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Choosing-The-Patriarch-Lessons-from-the-History-of-the-Church-English.pdf

Quote
Strangely, the three patriarchs who were diocesan metropolitans were quite successful and accomplished many things as metropolitans. For this reason, they were chosen as patriarchs, but as patriarchs, they accomplished nothing.

...

For these reasons, we see that the Fathers of the Church prohibited the election of diocesan metropolitans and bishops to the See of St. Mark. They also prevented seeking help from the authorities to gain the priesthood. Support for this found in the decision of the Holy Synod headed by Pope Mikhail I in the eighth century and the decision of the Holy Synod of 1873.

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« Reply #162 on: August 03, 2012, 07:46:40 AM »

Why is it the Coptic Church alone tries to follow that canon?
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« Reply #163 on: August 03, 2012, 08:27:46 AM »

Why is it the Coptic Church alone tries to follow that canon?

The synod of the Patriarchate of Alexandria placed proclaimed that anyone IN THAT SEE who as a bishop seeks the papacy, or who helps a bishop to seek it, should be excommunicated. So it can be seen as more binding on this see because of a local law, and so we shouldn't be surprised that bad things happen when we break our own rules.

That said, the results for others going against the ancient discipline hasn't been great either. Many EO clergy and laity acknowledge that ambitious bishops is a real problem, that it has been dealt with at the earliest times, and that we shouldn't be repeating the same mistakes again today.
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« Reply #164 on: August 03, 2012, 08:50:38 AM »

Thanks, Jonathan. Sorry for not being more clear, I meant canon 15 from the Council of Nicea not the local council.
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« Reply #165 on: August 03, 2012, 09:28:52 AM »

Thanks, Jonathan. Sorry for not being more clear, I meant canon 15 from the Council of Nicea not the local council.

yes, I realize that, but what I meant is that because we have a local canon that agrees with Nicaea 15, but is much more forceful/strict, it is more binding on us to obey. Basically the theological impossibility is never taught, but the practical need for stability and the theological desirability of maintaing the ideal is taught. In the Apostolic canons you see the door left open to cases of great need. At Nicaea you see this door closed because it was being abused, not because the truth changed, but because it proved better not to leave that door open for the peace of the Church. Then in Alexandria, when this rule was being broken, placed an even firmer rule in place, calling for excommunication of those who support the ambition. So we're more at fault for breaking it than the other Patriarchates, since our own rules are stricter.
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« Reply #166 on: August 03, 2012, 12:52:52 PM »

Why is it the Coptic Church alone tries to follow that canon?

Because everyone else has decided experience as a bishop is useful for very important bishops.
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« Reply #167 on: August 03, 2012, 08:29:26 PM »

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« Reply #168 on: August 04, 2012, 02:15:06 AM »

A Statement from the Diocese of Alexandria to the Members of the Holy Synod, the General Council of Denominational Affairs, and the Organization of Coptic Endowments


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The Diocese of Alexandria is the Diocese of Saint Mark, the Evangelizer of the Land of Egypt. On this basis, the Diocese acquired the honour of granting the titles “Pope” and “Patriarch” to her Bishop, who is advanced in honour amongst his brethren, the Diocesan Bishops.

We, the people of Alexandria, request to participate in the elections. As the late Pope Shenouda used to say, “It is the right of the people to choose their shepherd.” Therefore, to us, the Pope is our Bishop, and so we request to join the list of voters.

As the Bishops of other dioceses are chosen from amongst the monastic fathers – who are not greedy for authority, nor do they vie for any position – the people of Alexandria ask and demand that their Bishop, who is the Pope and Patriarch, be from amongst the monastic fathers whose ranks do not exceed that of a Hegoumen. This is on the principle of equality, and out of respect to the ecclesial traditions, which were established over the ages, from the fourth century A.D., when the Ecumenical Council of Nicaea was convened in the year A.D. 325. It has not occurred in our Coptic Church – throughout the ages – to install a Bishop over any diocese from amongst the Fathers the Bishops.

We, as a people who love their Church and uphold Her traditions, respect and value all the Fathers the Metropolitans and Bishops. However, and at the same time, we ask of them to steer away from being nominated to the Papal Throne, because it is dedicated to one of the monastic fathers, and it is not proper to violate this truth. Just as there is no repetition of Baptism, and no repetition to the laying on of hands.

The people of Alexandria are looking forward to the Rite of the Ordination of the Pope and Patriarch, and not to a celebration of an elevation. We ask and entreat Thy Goodness, O Lover of Mankind, bring forth to us a good monastic shepherd who will shepherd Thy people in purity and righteousness.

From the Diocese of Alexandria

from http://canon15.nicaea.ca/index.php/other-statements
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« Reply #169 on: August 07, 2012, 02:31:27 AM »

When does the voting start ? how is this done does it look like the Rome/ western way of voting on the Pope ie white and black smoke locked doors? where is the voting held at?  Will people gather outside and wait for the Pope to come out? sorry if these questions seam dumb
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« Reply #170 on: August 07, 2012, 12:56:03 PM »

all the congregations have been asked to ask their people's opinion.
i filled mine in on sunday.
these are not binding votes, just comments.

then the voters (there are some from each part of the church) vote (these days they don't have to be all present in one place) and the 3 candidates who score the most get their names put into a basket during a liturgy in the cathedral in egypt. a small child draws one out (in history, this is sometimes repeated to ensure that the same one is drawn as evidence of the work of God).
there are several variations on this theme, it has not always happened the same way in history, so it may be a little different next time.
so, sorry, no extreme fasting, smoke etc, but of course we always fast and pray for our leaders and use incense, so i suppose there is no complete ban on smoke!
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« Reply #171 on: August 12, 2012, 05:16:03 PM »

Coptic Orthodox Church reveals 17 candidates for papal seat
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContentP/1/50089/Egypt/Coptic-Orthodox-Church-reveals--candidates-for-pap.aspx
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« Reply #172 on: August 12, 2012, 05:19:53 PM »

Ya, I saw that...I wasn't going to post anything, since I didn't understand why Al Ahram decided to talk about the 17 candidates now, when it was already revealed weeks (months?) ago!!!

Perhaps, the bios of the 17 were revealed for the first time, but we already knew the names a while ago:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43643.msg756637.html#msg756637

What we're waiting for now, is a list of 7 candidates from these 17 which will lead to the registered voters of the Coptic Church to vote the highest 3 among these 7.  We hope the 7 candidates would be revealed God willing sometime right before Coptic New Year.  They were supposed to be revealed this month, but due to the controversy of diocesan bishops being Papal candidates, it seems we are being held back by a month.
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« Reply #173 on: August 16, 2012, 04:21:42 PM »

I know I am late to the thread but, may the Lord have mercy on your Faithful Servant. Times are tough in Egypt for those Orthodox Coptic still living there. May the Lord grant them peace and His love to keep them safe from harm.
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« Reply #174 on: September 13, 2012, 11:40:30 PM »

The Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church has officially set up a timeline for the selection process of the next Pope of Alexandria:

https://www.copticworld.org/articles/1223/

The 17 before mentioned candidates will be published tomorrow in major newspapers, where they will be presented with criticisms by the registered voters from around the world's Coptic Church, until September 30th where no more criticisms will be accepted.  On Wednesday Oct. 3, we will be presented with the final 5-7 candidates.  Right around Thanksgiving is when there will be an election for the top three votes, and on December 2, 2012, the three names will be placed on a chalice, where a little boy will come and randomly pick out one name, and this name will be ordained and/or seated as the successor to the See of St. Mark.  These three major events in the next coming weeks will be preceded by 3-day fasts, where the Coptic faithful are called to fast that God's choice may be manifested.

May the Lord strengthen us and help us choose the righteous and called successor.
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« Reply #175 on: September 14, 2012, 12:10:17 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church has officially set up a timeline for the selection process of the next Pope of Alexandria:

https://www.copticworld.org/articles/1223/

The 17 before mentioned candidates will be published tomorrow in major newspapers, where they will be presented with criticisms by the registered voters from around the world's Coptic Church, until September 30th where no more criticisms will be accepted.  On Wednesday Oct. 3, we will be presented with the final 5-7 candidates.  Right around Thanksgiving is when there will be an election for the top three votes, and on December 2, 2012, the three names will be placed on a chalice, where a little boy will come and randomly pick out one name, and this name will be ordained and/or seated as the successor to the See of St. Mark.  These three major events in the next coming weeks will be preceded by 3-day fasts, where the Coptic faithful are called to fast that God's choice may be manifest

May the Lord strengthen us and help us choose the righteous and called successor.

Glad to hear.  When I was first hearing all this talk about voting etc. I was concerned that the marvelous tradition of the little boy picking was going to be lost.  So nice its still the plan Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #176 on: September 14, 2012, 12:18:21 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church has officially set up a timeline for the selection process of the next Pope of Alexandria:

https://www.copticworld.org/articles/1223/

The 17 before mentioned candidates will be published tomorrow in major newspapers, where they will be presented with criticisms by the registered voters from around the world's Coptic Church, until September 30th where no more criticisms will be accepted.  On Wednesday Oct. 3, we will be presented with the final 5-7 candidates.  Right around Thanksgiving is when there will be an election for the top three votes, and on December 2, 2012, the three names will be placed on a chalice, where a little boy will come and randomly pick out one name, and this name will be ordained and/or seated as the successor to the See of St. Mark.  These three major events in the next coming weeks will be preceded by 3-day fasts, where the Coptic faithful are called to fast that God's choice may be manifest

May the Lord strengthen us and help us choose the righteous and called successor.

Glad to hear.  When I was first hearing all this talk about voting etc. I was concerned that the marvelous tradition of the little boy picking was going to be lost.  So nice its still the plan Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Well this whole election process is not without controversy. I personally am disappointed on a couple of aspects of this process, but I hope these fasts may at least reach to God in His mercy to lead us in the right direction.  Hopefully the next Pope will fix the issues surrounding Papal selection.
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« Reply #177 on: September 14, 2012, 07:27:54 PM »

3 October - Nominations committee commences deliberations and creates a shortlist of 5-7 candidates for papal election

19-21 November - Church-wide fast before Papal election


Is the final list of candidates gonna be published on October 3rd?

What will they do until November 19? 

The kids in Sunday School are putting money on the final 7 candidates. Here are the guesses:
 
Bishops:

1) Bishoy
2) Younaess
3) Pavnotius
4) Tawdros
5) Raphael

Monks:

Anybody will do. They are just placeholders.

It is all fixed.



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« Reply #178 on: September 14, 2012, 07:36:59 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


It is all fixed.





True but unlike the NBA, we can at least hope and pray that God is the One throwing the match Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #179 on: September 16, 2012, 12:45:28 AM »

Quote
True but unlike the NBA, we can at least hope and pray that God is the One throwing the match

Remember the 2002 Western Conference Final?

God works through people. There has to be a certain synergy between God and men, in which the believer subjects himself and his will to God in order for God to use him and work through him. In absence of human cooperation with God, the work of God is blocked.

The synod has openly defied God and has chosen to follow their corrupt rules, developed to further the case of their corrupt members, instead of the divinely inspired Church canons.

The one to be blamed is Anba Shenouda for his intentional selection of unworthy individuals for the rank of bishops so he can control them and dominate them to establish himself as the supreme head of the Church.   
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« Reply #180 on: October 10, 2012, 11:24:51 AM »

Bishop Kyrolos of Milan withdrew from the elections, citing health reasons.

Reports in the egyptian newspapers, not yet confirmed by the church officials, that Bishop Raphael, the popular and saintly general bishop of Cairo, has also withdrawn, saying that he was coerced by Bishop Moussa, his mentor, to enter this election against his will. He also cited health reasons.

Hopefully the church officials will comment.

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« Reply #181 on: October 10, 2012, 11:34:18 AM »

A Coptic bishop of Milan? The city in Italy?
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« Reply #182 on: October 10, 2012, 11:51:28 AM »

A Coptic bishop of Milan? The city in Italy?

Yes. The city of Milan, Italy.

We have another diocese in Italy, called "Coptic Diocese of Turin and Rome". The bishop of this diocese is Bishop Barnabas.

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« Reply #183 on: October 10, 2012, 12:04:13 PM »

A Coptic bishop of Milan? The city in Italy?

Yes. The city of Milan, Italy.

We have another diocese in Italy, called "Coptic Diocese of Turin and Rome". The bishop of this diocese is Bishop Barnabas.



Interesting. Amazing that the bishop of Milan was in the race to become the Patriarch of Alexandria.
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« Reply #184 on: October 10, 2012, 03:13:09 PM »

Bishop Kyrolos of Milan withdrew from the elections, citing health reasons.

Reports in the egyptian newspapers, not yet confirmed by the church officials, that Bishop Raphael, the popular and saintly general bishop of Cairo, has also withdrawn, saying that he was coerced by Bishop Moussa, his mentor, to enter this election against his will. He also cited health reasons.

Hopefully the church officials will comment.


HG Bishop Kyrillos I heard.  HG Bishop Rafael, I haven't heard yet, but this would be an interesting turn of events.

For sure the other 2 diocesan bishops seem to be too proud to withdraw their names.

I have big dreams that despite all these bishops, Fr. Rafael Ava Mina would be in the top list.  God give us a Pope Mina!
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« Reply #185 on: October 13, 2012, 07:59:38 AM »

http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/55492.aspx

At a press conference on Saturday afternoon in Wadi El-Natroun, Egypt's Coptic Orthodox Church announced the final list of 5 candidates in the running to become the next pope replacing Pope Shenouda III who died in March.

Two of the candidates are monks and three are priests. Candidates are Archbishop Raphael, general bishop of Central Cairo, Archbishop Tawadros, Priest Raphael Afamina, Bakhamious El-Souriani and Priest Sarafim El-Souriani.
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« Reply #186 on: October 13, 2012, 08:06:42 AM »

I have big dreams that despite all these bishops, Fr. Rafael Ava Mina would be in the top list.  God give us a Pope Mina!

Do they change their names upon becoming bishop, or keep their monastic name?

Baba Kyrillos was a Mina, right?
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« Reply #187 on: October 13, 2012, 08:26:14 AM »

I have big dreams that despite all these bishops, Fr. Rafael Ava Mina would be in the top list.  God give us a Pope Mina!

Do they change their names upon becoming bishop, or keep their monastic name?

Baba Kyrillos was a Mina, right?
Yes on both counts.
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« Reply #188 on: October 13, 2012, 08:27:40 AM »

http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/55492.aspx

At a press conference on Saturday afternoon in Wadi El-Natroun, Egypt's Coptic Orthodox Church announced the final list of 5 candidates in the running to become the next pope replacing Pope Shenouda III who died in March.

Two of the candidates are monks and three are priests. Candidates are Archbishop Raphael, general bishop of Central Cairo, Archbishop Tawadros, Priest Raphael Afamina, Bakhamious El-Souriani and Priest Sarafim El-Souriani.
Al7amdulilah Met. Bishoy is off the list! Is Archbishop Tawadros a Diocesan Bishop?
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« Reply #189 on: October 13, 2012, 09:10:54 AM »

http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/55492.aspx

At a press conference on Saturday afternoon in Wadi El-Natroun, Egypt's Coptic Orthodox Church announced the final list of 5 candidates in the running to become the next pope replacing Pope Shenouda III who died in March.

Two of the candidates are monks and three are priests. Candidates are Archbishop Raphael, general bishop of Central Cairo, Archbishop Tawadros, Priest Raphael Afamina, Bakhamious El-Souriani and Priest Sarafim El-Souriani.

Two general bishops and three hegoumens actually Smiley

Quote
Do they change their names upon becoming bishop, or keep their monastic name?

Baba Kyrillos was a Mina, right?

They are given a new name at ever ordination. So if a priest is selected, they will be ordained archbishop of Alexandria, and given a new name. If a bishop is selected, they cannot be ordained the bishop of Alexandria since they are already a bishop, they are merely transferred to the throne of Alexandria, so their name remains the same.

Quote
Is Archbishop Tawadros a Diocesan Bishop?
Both bishops are general bishops. (the archbishop title is clearly an error). Anba Tawadros is assistant to Anba Pachomios, so essentially H.G. is the auxiliary bishop of a diocese, and should not be transferred from that diocese.

Anba Rafael is a general bishop over an area of Cairo, so essentially an auxiliary bishop to the Pope... So somewhat closer to becoming canonical, though having a diocese covering Alexandria, Cairo, Canada, New jersey, etc, with general bishops in each area seems in effect to be diocene bishops of areas, with improper authority left to the Pope.

So it's great that the enthroned diocene bishops have been removed, and that three canonically proper candidates have been left. If only Anba Rafael would make good on H.G.'s intention to withdraw now that it is not necessary to prevent the ambition of Anba Pishoi, Anba Youannis, and Anba Paphnoutius

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« Reply #190 on: October 13, 2012, 09:40:58 AM »

^If Bishop Tawadros is elected, will Fr. Athanasius and the like have a problem with it? Will a schism (God forbid!) forment?
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« Reply #191 on: October 13, 2012, 10:26:10 AM »

The article made some typos...very clumsy [Muslim] reporters...this is the list:

His Grace Bishop Rafael, General Bishop for Central Cairo and Assistant to His Grace Bishop Moussa, General Bishop of the Youth
His Grace Bishop Tawadros, General Bishop to el Beheira and Assistant to His Emminence Metropolitan Bakhomious
His Very Reverence Fr. Rafael Ava Mina, famous monk-priest disciple of HH the late great saint Pope Kyrillos VI
His Very Reverence Fr. Bakhomious el-Souriany
His Very Reverence Fr. Seraphim el Souriany

from http://www.copticworld.org/articles/1306/

May the Lord continue to guide the process in peace and righteousness. Amen! Lord have mercy!

PS I think it's obvious who the final 3 will most probably be given the brief bio I gave.  I am not sure anyone knows anything about the Monk-Hegumens from the Syrian Monastery


HG Bishop Rafael wanted to withdraw, and yet did not do so officially, with many bishops and especially HG Bishop Moussa pleading with him not to withdraw:

http://www.copticworld.org/articles/1305/
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« Reply #192 on: October 13, 2012, 11:47:23 AM »

Just wanted to share a lecture that captured me by HG Bishop Rafael.  Personally, as I have shared before that I would rather 3 monks be of the finalists.  Nevertheless, the Orthodoxy of His Grace satisfies me to no end, that I may be relieved if someone like him becomes our next Pope.  This is a Resurrection lecture, which I know any Orthodox Christian here will enjoy, EO or OO:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnOdL9k8s0U&feature=relmfu
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TskKoXLQRnk&feature=relmfu
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbFwRU56g1I&feature=relmfu

HG Bishop Rafael was a physician before choosing the monastic lifestyle.  You can tell from his lecture how he incorporates medical analogies to the story of our salvation that Christ bestowed upon us.  If he doesn't become Pope, I would call for His Grace to become a diocesan bishop here in the US or Canada.  This continent will be the continent of Medical Diocesan bishops.
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« Reply #193 on: October 13, 2012, 12:27:28 PM »

Brief bios (in order of age):

Fr. Rafael Ava Mina:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=il3rzmBHUOQ#t=669s
http://hope4cope.com/?p=85

HG Bishop Tawadros:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XqwePz-ZK5Y&list=UUGvHqFLowTlubXfis39tA1Q#t=853s
http://hope4cope.com/?p=62

HG Bishop Rafael (right after bio on HG Bishop Tawadros):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XqwePz-ZK5Y&list=UUGvHqFLowTlubXfis39tA1Q#t=890s
http://hope4cope.com/?p=24

Fr. Pachomius el Souriany (hegumen of Torino, Italy):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XqwePz-ZK5Y&list=UUGvHqFLowTlubXfis39tA1Q#t=983s
http://hope4cope.com/?p=75

Fr. Seraphim el Souriany (hegumen of Honolulu, Hawaii):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XqwePz-ZK5Y&list=UUGvHqFLowTlubXfis39tA1Q#t=1021s
http://hope4cope.com/?p=79
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« Reply #194 on: October 13, 2012, 01:28:40 PM »

A total surprise to me. I would have never thought they would be able to remove Bishop Youaness or Bishop Bishoy. I pray both ambitious men do not destroy the church internally in retaliation. Youaness was the real danger. They still command significant influence by controlling the electorate body, and they can easily direct their vote by cutting out any candidate they are not able to cut a deal with.

The threat of schism was influential in eliminating both.

Anba Rapahel is amazing. He embraces all elements of Coptic Orthodox spirituality and in a time when our Church is endangered by Protestant influences, this is important. Yet, due to no fault of his own, his position as general bishop will cast serious doubts on his canonicity as a Pope.

As Mina wrote, we would love to have him in North America, we need him, but there are already many members of the empty dioceses lobbying for the man. He would probably prefer to stay in Egypt. I know, in Canada, any bishop will face immense problems from the priests who act and regard themselves as bishops.

If the altar lot is not rigged like in 1971, I pray that it would be a monk. He will be ordained and not merely transferred, will receive the gift of the Spirit and not rely on his reputation or human abilities. He will be canonical like Pope Cyril VI. He will not need to be a politician but will be aided by heaven.
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« Reply #195 on: October 13, 2012, 07:48:40 PM »

How was the altar lot rigged?
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« Reply #196 on: October 13, 2012, 09:41:31 PM »

^If Bishop Tawadros is elected, will Fr. Athanasius and the like have a problem with it? Will a schism (God forbid!) forment?

I can't speak definitively for anyone but myself, but I would be very surprised now if there were any meaningful schism with any of these candidates. I think that Fr. Athanasius is more comfortable with a general bishop becoming Pope than I am. Many of us do not like the idea of transferring a general bishop, but are ok with these two candidates compared to the alternatives. Those who were ambitious, campaigning for the position, arguing that they should have it, have been removed. If either of these two bishops left are selected, at least they are not ambitious, have not sought it, have tried to escape it, and have been compelled to remain in consideration by the other bishops. The spirit of the canon is to avoid ambition. I'm not saying it's ok to start transferring bishops around, but the most important point is that ambition has been avoided. I very, very much hope that Abouna Rafael will be H.H. Pope Kyrollos VII soon.
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« Reply #197 on: October 13, 2012, 10:47:52 PM »

^If Bishop Tawadros is elected, will Fr. Athanasius and the like have a problem with it? Will a schism (God forbid!) forment?

I can't speak definitively for anyone but myself, but I would be very surprised now if there were any meaningful schism with any of these candidates. I think that Fr. Athanasius is more comfortable with a general bishop becoming Pope than I am. Many of us do not like the idea of transferring a general bishop, but are ok with these two candidates compared to the alternatives. Those who were ambitious, campaigning for the position, arguing that they should have it, have been removed. If either of these two bishops left are selected, at least they are not ambitious, have not sought it, have tried to escape it, and have been compelled to remain in consideration by the other bishops. The spirit of the canon is to avoid ambition. I'm not saying it's ok to start transferring bishops around, but the most important point is that ambition has been avoided. I very, very much hope that Abouna Rafael will be H.H. Pope Kyrollos VII soon.
I was thinking along the lines of HH Pope Mina III ;-)
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« Reply #198 on: October 13, 2012, 11:20:22 PM »

Press Conference of His Eminence Metropolitan Bakhomious, the locum tenens of the Coptic Church, with the candidates committee, on the choice of the final five candidates, with english subtitles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MJ9XRTsOwI&feature=channel&list=UL
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« Reply #199 on: October 14, 2012, 07:30:18 AM »

Newspapers describe Anba Rofael as progressive.  What do they mean?
That description doesn't sound like that of someone "super-Orthodox".
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« Reply #200 on: October 14, 2012, 07:36:58 AM »

Newspapers describe Anba Rofael as progressive.  What do they mean?
That description doesn't sound like that of someone "super-Orthodox".

H.g. Is orthodox. Told the priests here they're protestants, and if their sermons aren't based in and consistent with the fathers, they're not preaching orthodoxy. Didn't pull any punches or go for popularity. Papers probably just mean caring for youth, using technology, unimportant things since they don't know how to judge the things that matter in a bishop
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« Reply #201 on: October 14, 2012, 12:04:27 PM »

^Glad to hear this.
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« Reply #202 on: October 14, 2012, 01:37:58 PM »

Quote
I very, very much hope that Abouna Rafael will be H.H. Pope Kyrollos VII soon.

Amen!

And yes, the best thing about HGB Rofail is that he is indeed Orthodox. I don't know how he can do it since for so long, patristics were left aside. His greatest thing (in my opinion) is that, unlike most Bishops and other high ranking hierarchs, he is patristically Orthodox.

I agree with Jonathan that, although I do not like the idea of general bishops becoming patriarchs, the removal of those who were ambitiously trying to fullfil a demonic desire have been removed. So HGB Rofail amd HGB Tawadros are both OK in my books. As for who I would like, I would personally love Father Rofail!

Does anyone know why they are doing an altar ballot? The Altar ballot was supposed to be only in the event of a tie... sort of like a tie breaker. If I remember correctly, in recent history it was used in Pope Kyrollos VI's case because of draw, and another time in Anba Shenouda's case (I may be wrong here, so please correct). Is it going to become a normal thing now? In my opinion, I don't like the altar ballot because it leaves out the ide of synergy between God and man, making the election little more than a lottery. There is no synergy between paper and God, but if a council of upright Bishops gathered together in synergy with God, a greater decision might be reached. I, personally, see no reason to resort to an altar ballot until there is a clear tie. We can use the God given intellect to make such decisions.

RO
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« Reply #203 on: October 14, 2012, 04:45:58 PM »

Quote
I very, very much hope that Abouna Rafael will be H.H. Pope Kyrollos VII soon.

Amen!

And yes, the best thing about HGB Rofail is that he is indeed Orthodox. I don't know how he can do it since for so long, patristics were left aside. His greatest thing (in my opinion) is that, unlike most Bishops and other high ranking hierarchs, he is patristically Orthodox.

I agree with Jonathan that, although I do not like the idea of general bishops becoming patriarchs, the removal of those who were ambitiously trying to fullfil a demonic desire have been removed. So HGB Rofail amd HGB Tawadros are both OK in my books. As for who I would like, I would personally love Father Rofail!

Does anyone know why they are doing an altar ballot? The Altar ballot was supposed to be only in the event of a tie... sort of like a tie breaker. If I remember correctly, in recent history it was used in Pope Kyrollos VI's case because of draw, and another time in Anba Shenouda's case (I may be wrong here, so please correct). Is it going to become a normal thing now? In my opinion, I don't like the altar ballot because it leaves out the ide of synergy between God and man, making the election little more than a lottery. There is no synergy between paper and God, but if a council of upright Bishops gathered together in synergy with God, a greater decision might be reached. I, personally, see no reason to resort to an altar ballot until there is a clear tie. We can use the God given intellect to make such decisions.

RO

No, that's how it's been since 1957.  Those who get the three highest votes will supposedly get a chance to be chosen to be the next pope.  You can be in third place of the voting (even if only 10 people voted for you that put you to third place let's say), and you can still get a chance of being the Pope.  From what I understand, HH Pope Shenouda was second place in the voting.
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« Reply #204 on: October 14, 2012, 04:55:15 PM »

H.g. Is orthodox. Told the priests here they're protestants, and if their sermons aren't based in and consistent with the fathers, they're not preaching orthodoxy. Didn't pull any punches or go for popularity.

 Grin I hope he will serve with the episcopal staff in one hand and a winnowing fan in the other, purging the threashing-floor of non-Orthodox theology and praxis.
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« Reply #205 on: October 14, 2012, 05:00:50 PM »

i think whoever will serve will be doing God's will, so will help us out theologically and in other ways.
thank God for His grace so far; now we continue with more prayer and fasting.
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return orthodoxy, who is this in your new avatar?
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« Reply #206 on: October 14, 2012, 05:03:56 PM »

return orthodoxy, who is this in your new avatar?
Fr. Matta Al-Maskeen.
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« Reply #207 on: October 14, 2012, 05:13:36 PM »

ah, thanks.
i thought i had seen him somewhere before.
may his prayers be with us, and those of our dear abba shenouda 3rd and abba kyrillos 6th.
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« Reply #208 on: October 15, 2012, 06:03:34 AM »

So it's great that the enthroned diocene bishops have been removed, and that three canonically proper candidates have been left. If only Anba Rafael would make good on H.G.'s intention to withdraw now that it is not necessary to prevent the ambition of Anba Pishoi, Anba Youannis, and Anba Paphnoutius

I don't think he can withdraw even if he wants to.
Doesn't there have to be 5-7 candidates for the election; this would leave only 4 candidates?
If he did withdraw, wouldn't they have to pick another name for the election.
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« Reply #209 on: October 15, 2012, 08:22:02 AM »

So it's great that the enthroned diocene bishops have been removed, and that three canonically proper candidates have been left. If only Anba Rafael would make good on H.G.'s intention to withdraw now that it is not necessary to prevent the ambition of Anba Pishoi, Anba Youannis, and Anba Paphnoutius

I don't think he can withdraw even if he wants to.
Doesn't there have to be 5-7 candidates for the election; this would leave only 4 candidates?
If he did withdraw, wouldn't they have to pick another name for the election.

Who knows? They're made up rules. There's no underlying principle or spirituality behind them, so who's to say what they would do? The rules said they'd narrow it down to 5-7. They didn't say what would happen if someone left for any reason after that.  The process of selecting a Pope is so far from proper... there's no reason they should have to pick 5-7, or have to have an altar lot. Really, there's no reason the people picking should have anything to do with the selection if we were doing things properly.
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« Reply #210 on: October 15, 2012, 09:56:50 AM »

^^ I like this guy^^^
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« Reply #211 on: October 15, 2012, 06:30:56 PM »

So it's great that the enthroned diocene bishops have been removed, and that three canonically proper candidates have been left. If only Anba Rafael would make good on H.G.'s intention to withdraw now that it is not necessary to prevent the ambition of Anba Pishoi, Anba Youannis, and Anba Paphnoutius

I don't think he can withdraw even if he wants to.
Doesn't there have to be 5-7 candidates for the election; this would leave only 4 candidates?
If he did withdraw, wouldn't they have to pick another name for the election.

Who knows? They're made up rules. There's no underlying principle or spirituality behind them, so who's to say what they would do? The rules said they'd narrow it down to 5-7. They didn't say what would happen if someone left for any reason after that.  The process of selecting a Pope is so far from proper... there's no reason they should have to pick 5-7, or have to have an altar lot. Really, there's no reason the people picking should have anything to do with the selection if we were doing things properly.

Good point!
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« Reply #212 on: October 16, 2012, 12:52:16 AM »

"Higoumen Rouphaïl Afa Mina was born in Cairo in 1942. He got a BA in Law in 1964. He joined the Mari Mina monastery in 1969, where he became a pupil of late Pope Kyrillos VI, who was from the same monastery. Author of 25 books about the lives of saints and martyrs, as well as on spirituality and rituals, he is known as the "beloved monk" and is backed strongly by one of Pope Shenouda's secretaries, Bishop Ermia, head of Saint Mark's TV channel, which is the official channel of the Coptic Orthodox Church."

Source: http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Egypt's-Coptic-Orthodox-Church-quickly-chooses-date-for-the-election-of-Shenouda-III's-successor-26092.html

I guess this means that HE Met. Bishoy is supporting Abouna Rafael.  Could it be because he is the oldest candidate, which would allow Met. Bishoy/supporters another shot at the papacy sooner rather than later?
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« Reply #213 on: October 16, 2012, 01:03:30 AM »

Pope Kyrollos, being a true Orthodox Patriarch would have violently opposed the folly that is occuring within the church today. He was very outspoken against any foolish acts on the part of the clergy, openly rebuking the Abbot of El-Baramos, telling "Patriarch" Youannis that he was not the true patriarch, but still a Metropolitan and rebuking anyone who disagreed with the truth. Abouna Rofail, a disciple of Pope Kyrollos will, God willing, have many of those same qualities of his father, and will defend the faith against any of those who bring down Orthodoxy. If he becomes patriarch, he should put any instruments of the devil back into their place before they can do anything to further harm the church.

When a murder plot was conspired against Pope Kyrollos by some of his metropolitans, they all paid an extremely high price. The cost of fooling around with the Orthodox church which Christ paid for with his blood is great.

HGB Ermia was a monk in St. Mina's monastery where Fr. Rofail is a monk, and a very esteemed one at that! Anba Ermia was the secretary to HGB Mina Ava Mina when he was still in the monastery, and as such, he certainly feels a special bond to both HH Pope Kyrollos, and Fr. Rofail.

As long as there is Orthodox blood flowing in the veins of the members of the church, Met. Bishoy's feet will never walk on the Patriarchal throne, nor will anyone of his men. There were anti-popes seated in the Coptic church many times, and each time, the congregation rejected them unanimously. If Met. Bishoy were even to sit on the throne, he would be the patriarch of 5 or 10 people. The rest, maintaining their Orthodox would have already elected someone else.

Met. Bishoy is not a threat. Never has been, never will be. All it takes is a few people with an education to trump him, and reveal his true intentions.

RO
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« Reply #214 on: October 16, 2012, 06:25:34 AM »

Pope Kyrollos, being a true Orthodox Patriarch would have violently opposed the folly that is occuring within the church today. He was very outspoken against any foolish acts on the part of the clergy, openly rebuking the Abbot of El-Baramos, telling "Patriarch" Youannis that he was not the true patriarch, but still a Metropolitan and rebuking anyone who disagreed with the truth. Abouna Rofail, a disciple of Pope Kyrollos will, God willing, have many of those same qualities of his father, and will defend the faith against any of those who bring down Orthodoxy. If he becomes patriarch, he should put any instruments of the devil back into their place before they can do anything to further harm the church.

When a murder plot was conspired against Pope Kyrollos by some of his metropolitans, they all paid an extremely high price. The cost of fooling around with the Orthodox church which Christ paid for with his blood is great.

HGB Ermia was a monk in St. Mina's monastery where Fr. Rofail is a monk, and a very esteemed one at that! Anba Ermia was the secretary to HGB Mina Ava Mina when he was still in the monastery, and as such, he certainly feels a special bond to both HH Pope Kyrollos, and Fr. Rofail.

As long as there is Orthodox blood flowing in the veins of the members of the church, Met. Bishoy's feet will never walk on the Patriarchal throne, nor will anyone of his men. There were anti-popes seated in the Coptic church many times, and each time, the congregation rejected them unanimously. If Met. Bishoy were even to sit on the throne, he would be the patriarch of 5 or 10 people. The rest, maintaining their Orthodox would have already elected someone else.

Met. Bishoy is not a threat. Never has been, never will be. All it takes is a few people with an education to trump him, and reveal his true intentions.

RO

Neshkor rabena!

So it's great that the enthroned diocene bishops have been removed, and that three canonically proper candidates have been left. If only Anba Rafael would make good on H.G.'s intention to withdraw now that it is not necessary to prevent the ambition of Anba Pishoi, Anba Youannis, and Anba Paphnoutius

I don't think he can withdraw even if he wants to.
Doesn't there have to be 5-7 candidates for the election; this would leave only 4 candidates?
If he did withdraw, wouldn't they have to pick another name for the election.

Who knows? They're made up rules. There's no underlying principle or spirituality behind them, so who's to say what they would do? The rules said they'd narrow it down to 5-7. They didn't say what would happen if someone left for any reason after that.  The process of selecting a Pope is so far from proper... there's no reason they should have to pick 5-7, or have to have an altar lot. Really, there's no reason the people picking should have anything to do with the selection if we were doing things properly.

Also, I guess, there's no procedure if there's a tie in the number of votes for the 3rd and 4th highest candidates.
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« Reply #215 on: October 16, 2012, 04:28:24 PM »

What are the ages of the candidates, if anybody knows?
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« Reply #216 on: October 16, 2012, 06:15:14 PM »

The timeline for choosing the new pope has been moved up a month. Elections for the three finalists will be on October 29 with a period of fasting on October 22-24. The altar ballot will be on November 4 with a period of fasting from October 29 - November 2.

source
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« Reply #217 on: October 16, 2012, 07:24:23 PM »

What are the ages of the candidates, if anybody knows?
I found out:

Fr. Rafael Avamina- 70
H.G. Bishop Tawadros- 60
H.G. Bishop Rafael- 54
Fr. Pachomious Alsouriany- 49
Fr. Seraphim Alsouriany- 53

Source
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