Author Topic: How can I be a Graceless heretic?  (Read 1792 times)

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Offline Aindriú

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How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« on: March 16, 2012, 12:24:37 AM »
How much schism does it take from the True Church before I become a Graceless heretic?

There are chruches in partial communion with each other (by relation)? I'm assuming they must still have Grace.

There are churches that don't maintain communion with each other, but then reconcile shortly after. These material schisms have even lasted for a century at a time in some cases, but later would retroactively confirm the orthodoxy of actions by the other in schism ( like confirming ecumenical councils).

There are then churches that are currently in full schism, yet hold similar beliefs, if not identical essential beliefs.

There are then churches that are in full schism, yet hold cultural differences in theology and may even debate the technicalities of an unknowable and/or unfathomable reality, but basic theology is essentially identical.

There are so many so willing to call the other an external to the Church, so tell me where. And if you cop-out with "I know where it is, but not where it's not", then you're no fun and just choke yourself. ;)

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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2012, 12:40:42 AM »
How much schism does it take from the True Church before I become a Graceless heretic?

There are chruches in partial communion with each other (by relation)? I'm assuming they must still have Grace.

There are churches that don't maintain communion with each other, but then reconcile shortly after. These material schisms have even lasted for a century at a time in some cases, but later would retroactively confirm the orthodoxy of actions by the other in schism ( like confirming ecumenical councils).

There are then churches that are currently in full schism, yet hold similar beliefs, if not identical essential beliefs.

There are then churches that are in full schism, yet hold cultural differences in theology and may even debate the technicalities of an unknowable and/or unfathomable reality, but basic theology is essentially identical.

There are so many so willing to call the other an external to the Church, so tell me where. And if you cop-out with "I know where it is, but not where it's not", then you're no fun and just choke yourself. ;)

I find this confusing. There can be no degrees of schism. One is either outside of the body of Christ or he is not.
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline Aindriú

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2012, 12:42:39 AM »
So where is the line? There are cases of all types throughout history.

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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2012, 12:53:40 AM »
So where is the line? There are cases of all types throughout history.

The line is breaking communion with the other members of the body of Christ for no justifiable reason. Granted, some schisms in history were ended without any party admitting fault, but this does not necessarily mean that both sides remained in grace. Instead we would say that the rehabilitation of schismatic clergy without reordination would be an act of economy for the peace of the Church.
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2012, 01:09:37 AM »
Funny you should ask . . .

In my forthcoming book, I chart out the various and manifolds methods one can use find themselves outside the Body of Christ. After decades of research and experience, I believe this will be the only text you will ever need to commit yourself to everlasting torment.

PM me for a free copy.
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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2012, 01:18:23 AM »
Funny you should ask . . .

In my forthcoming book, I chart out the various and manifolds methods one can use find themselves outside the Body of Christ. After decades of research and experience, I believe this will be the only text you will ever need to commit yourself to everlasting torment.

PM me for a free copy.

How many chapters will be devoted to falsifying Turkish ancestry?
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2012, 01:25:07 AM »
Funny you should ask . . .

In my forthcoming book, I chart out the various and manifolds methods one can use find themselves outside the Body of Christ. After decades of research and experience, I believe this will be the only text you will ever need to commit yourself to everlasting torment.

PM me for a free copy.

How many chapters will be devoted to falsifying Turkish ancestry?

That is a bit too inside baseball for the Thomas Nelson crowd I am looking to make heaps of cash off of. That will be included in my already mentioned: When Obedience Fails: The Complete Guide on how to Laicize your Priest.

Keep your fingers crossed that Conciliar tosses me an advance.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2012, 01:56:35 AM »
When Obedience Fails: The Complete Guide on how to Laicize your Priest.

I am reminded of too many people by this!
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Offline stanley123

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2012, 05:18:01 AM »
How much schism does it take from the True Church before I become a Graceless heretic?

There are chruches in partial communion with each other (by relation)? I'm assuming they must still have Grace.

There are churches that don't maintain communion with each other, but then reconcile shortly after. These material schisms have even lasted for a century at a time in some cases, but later would retroactively confirm the orthodoxy of actions by the other in schism ( like confirming ecumenical councils).

There are then churches that are currently in full schism, yet hold similar beliefs, if not identical essential beliefs.

There are then churches that are in full schism, yet hold cultural differences in theology and may even debate the technicalities of an unknowable and/or unfathomable reality, but basic theology is essentially identical.

There are so many so willing to call the other an external to the Church, so tell me where. And if you cop-out with "I know where it is, but not where it's not", then you're no fun and just choke yourself. ;)
Interesting question.
Well, are Roman Catholics, either Latin or Eastern, graceless heretics?

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2012, 05:49:18 AM »
So where is the line? There are cases of all types throughout history.

Point out a specific one so that we may all see the details.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2012, 05:49:18 AM »
I know where it is not, but not where it is.  ;)

I think it's the extremist position to say that only the Orthodox have grace and that outside of it there is none. A better person, who I hope will reply is Fr. Peter Farrington.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2012, 05:49:18 AM »
How much schism does it take from the True Church before I become a Graceless heretic?

There are chruches in partial communion with each other (by relation)? I'm assuming they must still have Grace.

There are churches that don't maintain communion with each other, but then reconcile shortly after. These material schisms have even lasted for a century at a time in some cases, but later would retroactively confirm the orthodoxy of actions by the other in schism ( like confirming ecumenical councils).

There are then churches that are currently in full schism, yet hold similar beliefs, if not identical essential beliefs.

There are then churches that are in full schism, yet hold cultural differences in theology and may even debate the technicalities of an unknowable and/or unfathomable reality, but basic theology is essentially identical.

There are so many so willing to call the other an external to the Church, so tell me where. And if you cop-out with "I know where it is, but not where it's not", then you're no fun and just choke yourself. ;)

I find this confusing. There can be no degrees of schism. One is either outside of the body of Christ or he is not.
Although I think there are degrees where the Holy Spirit is though.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2012, 05:49:18 AM »
How much schism does it take from the True Church before I become a Graceless heretic?

There are chruches in partial communion with each other (by relation)? I'm assuming they must still have Grace.

There are churches that don't maintain communion with each other, but then reconcile shortly after. These material schisms have even lasted for a century at a time in some cases, but later would retroactively confirm the orthodoxy of actions by the other in schism ( like confirming ecumenical councils).

There are then churches that are currently in full schism, yet hold similar beliefs, if not identical essential beliefs.

There are then churches that are in full schism, yet hold cultural differences in theology and may even debate the technicalities of an unknowable and/or unfathomable reality, but basic theology is essentially identical.

There are so many so willing to call the other an external to the Church, so tell me where. And if you cop-out with "I know where it is, but not where it's not", then you're no fun and just choke yourself. ;)
Interesting question.
Well, are Roman Catholics, either Latin or Eastern, graceless heretics?

Essentially.  Oh, and Eastern and Western Catholics are in the same boat.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2012, 07:23:18 AM »
I think it's the extremist position to say that only the Orthodox have grace and that outside of it there is none.

Nobody is saying that. While many in the plain old regular Orthodox patriarchates are saying that there are no sacraments outside the Church none are saying that there are no grace outside the Church.

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2012, 07:30:52 AM »
As a layperson I do not have a preconceived notion that other Christians are "graceless heretics". I know I cannot share communion with them and leave it that. Is there any reason why to worry otherwise?
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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2012, 07:33:13 AM »
I think it's the extremist position to say that only the Orthodox have grace and that outside of it there is none.

Nobody is saying that. While many in the plain old regular Orthodox patriarchates are saying that there are no sacraments outside the Church none are saying that there are no grace outside the Church.

This is how I understand it too.
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2012, 08:54:42 AM »
I think it's the extremist position to say that only the Orthodox have grace and that outside of it there is none.

Nobody is saying that. While many in the plain old regular Orthodox patriarchates are saying that there are no sacraments outside the Church none are saying that there are no grace outside the Church.

This is how I understand it too.

Exactly.  To say that someone outside the Church was without grace would be to say that their existence has ceased to be.  But, to say that there are no sacraments outside the Church is not extremist, it is the position of St. Cyril.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2012, 09:06:20 AM »
Let us give thank to God for having filled with grace the Orthodox Church, and let us just leave the others to him...

Offline Melodist

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2012, 10:45:05 AM »
-
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 10:45:30 AM by Melodist »
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2012, 03:12:16 PM »
When Obedience Fails: The Complete Guide on how to Laicize your Priest.

I am reminded of too many people by this!

From the back matter:

"Buying and following the program outlined in this book proves that you care about your priest, unlike those people who just ignore him.

"Research has shown that, of all the things priests cannot stand--boring parish meetings, having to flush toilets late at night, people who prattle on and on about spiritual books they have read and then give others spiritual advice even though they have no business doing so, being ignored by their parishioners is the worst.

" 'When someone complains to the bishop or starts a campaign against me, I feel needed,' said Father Lazarus N. of St. Mark Orthodox Church. 'And it's nice to be needed; it's nice to know that people are paying attention to my ministry instead of taking me for granted. If some innocent thing I've done as part of my priestly ministry ticks someone off, I ultimately feel more fulfilled, like spending years in seminary and marrying my wife after having known her only two weeks was the right thing to do.' "
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Offline Shiny

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2012, 10:10:54 PM »
I think it's the extremist position to say that only the Orthodox have grace and that outside of it there is none.

Nobody is saying that. While many in the plain old regular Orthodox patriarchates are saying that there are no sacraments outside the Church none are saying that there are no grace outside the Church.
:)
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2012, 10:10:54 PM »
I think that churches fight so freaking much over trivial bologna that the world robs them of their flocks while duking it out.

As I watched through the years "schism" after "schism".... It's never ever stopped.  Even back to the Aryan controversy, chalcedonian schism, great schism, there have been tons of schisms in between.  All the time "in and out of communions".   

Guess what, the flock is half addicted to porn, and they are fighting over beards and calendars.   

I've learned over the years, nothing ticks off Christians more than other Christians that have questions, objections, or apologetics against the church theology they follow.  If a Muslim jumps aboard and says "your faith is bologna and filthy as the swine it came from", and a Christian says "you know the calendar doesn't matter".... The fight would be with the Christian.

The whole thing is a disastrous power grubbing mess...... One that I believe our savior never wanted to happen in the church he entrusted to us.

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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2012, 10:18:33 PM »
Oh, I dunno...  fwiw I find the Christians here, and in local Orthodox parishes, to be quite gracious with me... and I roll out snarky comments and critical questions quite frequently :)
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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2012, 10:27:21 PM »
I think that churches fight so freaking much over trivial bologna that the world robs them of their flocks while duking it out.

As I watched through the years "schism" after "schism".... It's never ever stopped.  Even back to the Aryan controversy, chalcedonian schism, great schism, there have been tons of schisms in between.  All the time "in and out of communions".   

Guess what, the flock is half addicted to porn, and they are fighting over beards and calendars.   

I've learned over the years, nothing ticks off Christians more than other Christians that have questions, objections, or apologetics against the church theology they follow.  If a Muslim jumps aboard and says "your faith is bologna and filthy as the swine it came from", and a Christian says "you know the calendar doesn't matter".... The fight would be with the Christian.

The whole thing is a disastrous power grubbing mess...... One that I believe our savior never wanted to happen in the church he entrusted to us.



We are glad that you have managed to find perfection outside of the body of Christ, unlike we imperfect and abhorrent sinners within it. God and Pelagius will be waiting for you at the pearly gates.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 10:28:25 PM by Cavaradossi »
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2012, 11:40:07 PM »
Funny you should ask . . .

In my forthcoming book, I chart out the various and manifolds methods one can use find themselves outside the Body of Christ. After decades of research and experience, I believe this will be the only text you will ever need to commit yourself to everlasting torment.

PM me for a free copy.

How many chapters will be devoted to falsifying Turkish ancestry?

That is a bit too inside baseball for the Thomas Nelson crowd I am looking to make heaps of cash off of. That will be included in my already mentioned: When Obedience Fails: The Complete Guide on how to Laicize your Priest.

Keep your fingers crossed that Conciliar tosses me an advance.

Did you include the chapter on the Mysteries of the Baseball Diamond and their relationship to  the Free-Masons and the Ultramontanists? It sounded like a good read on the Amazon synopsis.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2012, 12:24:11 AM »
Nobody wants to be the heretic, but let's face it, it's gotta be someone!

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2012, 01:09:59 AM »
Nobody wants to be the heretic, but let's face it, it's gotta be someone!

the idea of a gracious heretic is an interesting one...at least they will be a good host if they ever invite you over to dinner.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2012, 01:15:01 AM »
Nobody wants to be the heretic, but let's face it, it's gotta be someone!

"Everybody wants to be orthodox, but don't nobody wanna do no heavy-*ss studying"
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Offline Babalon

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2012, 01:42:21 AM »
Nobody wants to be the heretic, but let's face it, it's gotta be someone!

Boy, it's pretty awesome let me tell you...

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2012, 01:47:32 AM »
Nobody wants to be the heretic, but let's face it, it's gotta be someone!

Boy, it's pretty awesome let me tell you...

rofl...gives you a rush, does it? ;)

Offline Babalon

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2012, 01:56:28 AM »
Nobody wants to be the heretic, but let's face it, it's gotta be someone!

Boy, it's pretty awesome let me tell you...

rofl...gives you a rush, does it? ;)

Maybe not a "rush", but certainly some good sentiment. Very encouraging.

I remember there was this one dude, i forget his name, but he said something like:
Quote
If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first.

 :-X
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 01:57:01 AM by Babalon »

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2012, 02:00:04 AM »
Nobody wants to be the heretic, but let's face it, it's gotta be someone!

Boy, it's pretty awesome let me tell you...

rofl...gives you a rush, does it? ;)

Maybe not a "rush", but certainly some good sentiment. Very encouraging.

I remember there was this one dude, i forget his name, but he said something like:
Quote
If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first.

 :-X

ah...i'm sure the gnostics, arians, et al. found refuge under that verse too... ;)

Offline Babalon

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2012, 02:01:44 AM »
Nobody wants to be the heretic, but let's face it, it's gotta be someone!

Boy, it's pretty awesome let me tell you...

rofl...gives you a rush, does it? ;)



Maybe not a "rush", but certainly some good sentiment. Very encouraging.

I remember there was this one dude, i forget his name, but he said something like:
Quote
If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first.

 :-X

ah...i'm sure the gnostics, arians, et al. found refuge under that verse too... ;)

Yes, we did.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2012, 01:35:38 PM »
Nobody wants to be the heretic, but let's face it, it's gotta be someone!

Boy, it's pretty awesome let me tell you...

rofl...gives you a rush, does it? ;)



Maybe not a "rush", but certainly some good sentiment. Very encouraging.

I remember there was this one dude, i forget his name, but he said something like:
Quote
If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first.

 :-X

ah...i'm sure the gnostics, arians, et al. found refuge under that verse too... ;)

Yes, we did.

Just gotta say this sequence of quotes is pretty douchey.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2012, 04:54:47 PM »
So where is the line? There are cases of all types throughout history.

You want an algorithm? The "line" is decided at the time a schismatic wants to be reunited to the Church.
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Offline Aindriú

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2012, 07:03:10 PM »
So where is the line? There are cases of all types throughout history.

You want an algorithm? The "line" is decided at the time a schismatic wants to be reunited to the Church.

Reality isn't that clean. Schisms aren't always complete between churches. And some churches retroactively recognize the orthodoxy of a church that was in schism on other accounts (1st EC).

I'm going to need this.

Offline Babalon

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2012, 08:14:31 PM »
Nobody wants to be the heretic, but let's face it, it's gotta be someone!

Boy, it's pretty awesome let me tell you...

rofl...gives you a rush, does it? ;)



Maybe not a "rush", but certainly some good sentiment. Very encouraging.

I remember there was this one dude, i forget his name, but he said something like:
Quote
If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first.

 :-X

ah...i'm sure the gnostics, arians, et al. found refuge under that verse too... ;)

Yes, we did.

Just gotta say this sequence of quotes is pretty douchey.

Watch out man, you can get some lashes for that one. I did.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2012, 08:20:10 PM »
Based on forum mod you may or may not get in trouble.  :police:
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 08:20:37 PM by Asteriktos »
We all have an El Guapo to face. Be brave, and fight like lions!

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2012, 09:29:26 AM »
So where is the line? There are cases of all types throughout history.

You want an algorithm? The "line" is decided at the time a schismatic wants to be reunited to the Church.

Reality isn't that clean. Schisms aren't always complete between churches. And some churches retroactively recognize the orthodoxy of a church that was in schism on other accounts (1st EC).

Precisely my point.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Aindriú

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2012, 06:17:25 PM »
So where is the line? There are cases of all types throughout history.

You want an algorithm? The "line" is decided at the time a schismatic wants to be reunited to the Church.

Reality isn't that clean. Schisms aren't always complete between churches. And some churches retroactively recognize the orthodoxy of a church that was in schism on other accounts (1st EC).

Precisely my point.

Not your second sentence, which contradicts the first. What constitutes the Church is then more ambiguous than is often portrayed.

I'm going to need this.

Offline augustin717

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2012, 07:29:27 PM »
Conservative/libertarian (petit) bourgeois Continuing anglicans are undoubtedly graceless heretics, worthy of Ghenna .

Offline Aindriú

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Re: How can I be a Graceless heretic?
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2012, 07:52:41 PM »
Conservative/libertarian (petit) bourgeois Continuing anglicans are undoubtedly graceless heretics, worthy of Ghenna .

Undoubtedly.


 Where ever they may be.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 07:52:56 PM by Aindriú »

I'm going to need this.