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Author Topic: Questions concerning WR discipline  (Read 2902 times) Average Rating: 0
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Caelestinus
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« on: March 15, 2012, 03:26:58 PM »

1. Do WR-parishes celebrate holy Mass on the feriae of Lent?

2. Do WR-priests use a corporal of linnen or a byzantine antimension?
If they use a corporal of the Latin tradition, is it considered necessary that the eucharistic sacrifice is offered over an altar (of stone), containing relicts of martyrs and being blessed by a bishop?

3. Is the sacrament of consignation/confirmation (by laying on the hands and signing the cross on the forehaed) reserved to a bishop?
If this is the case, is the (first) postbaptismal unction considered as participation in the royal, prophetic and priestly dignity? How is it performed (prayer and gesture)?
Or is this unction considered as sacrament of confirmation (chrismation) like the byzantine tradition does?
Is the hl. chrisma (myron) the same, that is used by the fellow ER-parishes, blessed by the first hierarch (patriarch)? Is it thinkable that - if one day an ordinary WR-Dioecesan Bishop may be consecrated - that he will obtain facultas for blessing the chrisma himself?

4. Is the Apostolic creed in use? if yes, only in the Liturgy of the hours or even in the Divine Liturgy?

5. Where is the Creed placed in the Divine Liturgy (holy Mass)? Always after Gospel (resp. the homily) or also after the dypticha (commemoration of the names), if said?

6. Which formulas of the Epiclesis of the Holy Ghost in the Anaphora (Canon of the Mass) are in use? As far as I know, they are in the Tychon-Liturgy taken from the Chyrsostomos-Liturgy? If only this is the case, why is the old Latin/Roman Holy-Ghost-Epiclesis, as it is whitnessed by Pope Gelasius in his letter to Elpidius and litteral in Oldspanish as well as in Beneventians and some other manuscripts, not (yet) restored?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 03:46:52 PM by Caelestinus » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2012, 04:21:13 PM »

Some answers will depend, since there is no unified Orthodox Western Rite practice.
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2012, 06:39:02 PM »

Im not a priest but I can answer some question based on my own experiences. We use The Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon in our parish.

Quote
Is the sacrament of consignation/confirmation (by laying on the hands and signing the cross on the forehaed) reserved to a bishop?
I'm getting chrismated, and getting the sign of the cross in a bunch of spots by my priest, if that helps Smiley

Quote
4. Is the Apostolic creed in use? if yes, only in the Liturgy of the hours or even in the Divine Liturgy?
We recite the Apostle's Creed at Matins and Vespers except on Sunday, when it's skipped because we recite the Nicene Creed during liturgy.

Quote
5. Where is the Creed placed in the Divine Liturgy (holy Mass)? Always after Gospel (resp. the homily) or also after the dypticha (commemoration of the names), if said?
For us, its after the Gospel and homily.

PP

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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2012, 04:17:42 PM »

Im not a priest but I can answer some question based on my own experiences. We use The Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon in our parish.

Quote
Is the sacrament of consignation/confirmation (by laying on the hands and signing the cross on the forehaed) reserved to a bishop?
I'm getting chrismated, and getting the sign of the cross in a bunch of spots by my priest, if that helps Smiley

Quote
4. Is the Apostolic creed in use? if yes, only in the Liturgy of the hours or even in the Divine Liturgy?
We recite the Apostle's Creed at Matins and Vespers except on Sunday, when it's skipped because we recite the Nicene Creed during liturgy.

Quote
5. Where is the Creed placed in the Divine Liturgy (holy Mass)? Always after Gospel (resp. the homily) or also after the dypticha (commemoration of the names), if said?
For us, its after the Gospel and homily.

PP



Thank you!

I'm thankful for all kinds of information, whether by experience or by knowledge.


How are the canons of Trullo regarded in respect to the Roman customs? Binding? kat'oikonomian? Or being not aware of?


(Please excuse, if my English is not all the way understandable, I'am not a native speaker.)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 04:25:07 PM by Caelestinus » Logged
Caelestinus
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« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2012, 05:58:22 AM »

As I saw on the websites of the Antioch as well the ROCOR WR-Vicariate, according to their calendar (the fasting of) Lent begins with "Ash Wendsday".

Are there no attemps to try to get in accordance with the Eastern practice, especially as there existed to other beginnings of Lent in Rome? One of them - the elder one (the other one starting on Dom. I in XL and ending on Maundy Thursday) -, beginning on Monday in Quinquagesima and ending on Friday before Palmsunday could help to do so..

« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 05:58:43 AM by Caelestinus » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2012, 10:22:08 AM »

Quote
Thank you!

I'm thankful for all kinds of information, whether by experience or by knowledge.
Glad to help Smiley

Quote
How are the canons of Trullo regarded in respect to the Roman customs? Binding? kat'oikonomian? Or being not aware of?


(Please excuse, if my English is not all the way understandable, I'am not a native speaker.)
Im still a Catechumen, so I have my hands full without thinking of that stuff. sorry Smiley

PP
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2012, 06:35:11 AM »

Why and how is Corpus Christi in the ROCOR Western Rite celebrated?

http://www.rwrv.org/files/FraternityJulianCalendar-2012.pdf

This and the fact, that the modern roman-catholic feast "Christ the King" ist celebrated, is more than astonishing!
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2012, 06:36:24 AM »

Is it or would it be permitted, that after holy communion in the pascha vigil the neophyts recieve a cup of blessed milk and honey?


P.S. Why is it so quiete here? Where are all the "specialists" and insiders gone?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 06:37:19 AM by Caelestinus » Logged
Caelestinus
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2012, 06:45:29 AM »

Quote
"The first lesson has been restored
http://www.theorthodoxchurch.org/docs/Liturgy_of_Saint_Greagory-Traditional_Language.pdf

Can anyone of the fraternity or anybody else give clear evidence, that "restauration" in this context is true and not only a supposition?
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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2012, 09:46:55 AM »

Quote
Is it or would it be permitted, that after holy communion in the pascha vigil the neophyts recieve a cup of blessed milk and honey?
I'll let ya know in 4 weeks Wink

Quote
Why is it so quiete here?
Good question.....

PP
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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2012, 09:54:02 AM »

Quote
Why is it so quiete here?
Good question.....

PP

WRO is really a rather tiny phenomenon. Most of us follow Byzantine tradition because that's all that is available so there aren't many "specialists" or "insiders".
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« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2012, 07:04:38 AM »

Why and how is Corpus Christi in the ROCOR Western Rite celebrated?

It has some sense, that it is celebrated on a Thursday..


Do West Rite-parishoners kneel after having recieved holy communion?

Are there WR-parishoners, who do the sign of the cross in the right way (three fingers - right to left shoulder)?

Is genuflexion by one knee also done (as I saw it one video by the Antiocheniens) by the WR-p. of the ROCOR-Vicariate?
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« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2012, 07:05:46 AM »

Quote
Why is it so quiete here?
Good question.....

PP

WRO is really a rather tiny phenomenon. Most of us follow Byzantine tradition because that's all that is available so there aren't many "specialists" or "insiders".

I remember a year ago there was not such a silentiumCry
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 07:05:56 AM by Caelestinus » Logged
Caelestinus
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« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2012, 07:07:15 AM »

Quote
Is it or would it be permitted, that after holy communion in the pascha vigil the neophyts recieve a cup of blessed milk and honey?
I'll let ya know in 4 weeks Wink

So, you are a competens/electus/photizomenos already.. Smiley

May God bless the good thing he has begun!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 07:07:30 AM by Caelestinus » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2012, 09:37:01 AM »

Quote
Is it or would it be permitted, that after holy communion in the pascha vigil the neophyts recieve a cup of blessed milk and honey?
I'll let ya know in 4 weeks Wink

So, you are a competens/electus/photizomenos already.. Smiley

May God bless the good thing he has begun!
No no, I was referring to the vigil. Sorry about the confusion, no I am not.

PP
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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2012, 10:16:09 AM »

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I remember a year ago there was not such a silentium.

I've pretty much stopped posting here because the two things I hate most are liturgical innovation and liturgical archeology, both being two sides of the same coin inscribed "making sh*t up".

I've already detailed the problems I had with my local WR parish (innovation), and since the trend in the Orthodox WR these days seems to be moving away from the original intention of the WR, baptising what has been handed down to us in the west, and towards liturgical archeology, in an attempt to make the WR "more Orthodox" (as if a rite that has already been blessed for use by saints were not Orthodox enough), I'm content to remain ER and let the WR be just a fond memory.
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2012, 10:45:52 AM »

Why and how is Corpus Christi in the ROCOR Western Rite celebrated?

It has some sense, that it is celebrated on a Thursday..


Do West Rite-parishoners kneel after having recieved holy communion?

Are there WR-parishoners, who do the sign of the cross in the right way (three fingers - right to left shoulder)?

Is genuflexion by one knee also done (as I saw it one video by the Antiocheniens) by the WR-p. of the ROCOR-Vicariate?

I think the answer to all of these questions is both yes and no. There is no uniform WR Orthodox practice.
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« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2012, 10:47:14 AM »

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I remember a year ago there was not such a silentium.

I've pretty much stopped posting here because the two things I hate most are liturgical innovation and liturgical archeology, both being two sides of the same coin inscribed "making sh*t up".

I've already detailed the problems I had with my local WR parish (innovation), and since the trend in the Orthodox WR these days seems to be moving away from the original intention of the WR, baptising what has been handed down to us in the west, and towards liturgical archeology, in an attempt to make the WR "more Orthodox" (as if a rite that has already been blessed for use by saints were not Orthodox enough), I'm content to remain ER and let the WR be just a fond memory.

And another hated thing--individuals sitting in judgment.
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« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2012, 11:47:00 AM »

yBeayf, Im sorry you have such a bad taste in your mouth about it all. My experience has been nothing but positive. Maybe it was something only that parish went through?

As for liturgical archaeology I have to say that IMHO, it is in direct response to attacks on WR concerning liturgical legitimacy that some very prominent folks have brought up (Met. Ware's argument springs to mind).

PP
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« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2012, 03:01:09 AM »

the two things I hate most are liturgical innovation [...]

I've already detailed the problems I had with my local WR parish (innovation),

What kind of innovations are you referring to, or can you post the link, where you detailed the problems?
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« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2012, 06:39:06 PM »

Just found this thread. I will try to answer a few of these questions:

> ... 1. Do WR-parishes celebrate holy Mass on the feriae of Lent?

Some do and some do not. Only the old-calendarists have an actual prohibition on that, in Western Rite. In the RWRV, both practices (full Mass on Lenten weekday, and Presanctified Mass) are known and approved.

> ... 2. Do WR-priests use a corporal of linnen or a byzantine antimension?

This has been handled in different ways, but there is no reason that antimins cannot "double" as the next-to-topmost corporal. There is no strict requirement that altar cloths be linen, since silk was often used for them in the middle ages.

> ... If they use a corporal of the Latin tradition, is it considered necessary that the eucharistic sacrifice is offered over an altar (of stone), containing relicts of martyrs and being blessed by a bishop?

That is normative, but the antimins can serve the function of a "superaltare" in the Western Rite, permitting the celebration of Mass without an altar of stone, etc.

> ... 3. Is the sacrament of consignation/confirmation (by laying on the hands and signing the cross on the forehaed) reserved to a bishop?

Generally speaking, it is not. Most WR Orthodox follow the (minority) Western practice in that regard, a practice permitted specifically by St. Gregory the Dialogist and found in parts of Italy prior to the Schism of Rome in 1054.

> ... If this is the case, is the (first) postbaptismal unction considered as participation in the royal, prophetic and priestly dignity? How is it performed (prayer and gesture)?

Yes. The details are in the service books approved.

> ... Or is this unction considered as sacrament of confirmation (chrismation) like the byzantine tradition does?

Beware the premise that the Byz. Rite "considers" anything in the Western Rite as having a particular meaning. The Byz. Rite addresses only the Byz. Rite. I can say that the anointing in the WR which you refer to, is not considered the sacrament of Holy Chrismation, which is made even clearer by the fact that it is followed, later in the service, by a complete Rite of Chrismation.

> .. Is the hl. chrisma (myron) the same, that is used by the fellow ER-parishes, blessed by the first hierarch (patriarch)?

Yes.

> ... Is it thinkable that - if one day an ordinary WR-Dioecesan Bishop may be consecrated - that he will obtain facultas for blessing the chrisma himself?

I suppose it is thinkable. It's a bridge which has not been crossed, so to speak.

> ... 4. Is the Apostolic creed in use? if yes, only in the Liturgy of the hours or even in the Divine Liturgy?

Yes, only in the Divine Office, never at Mass.

> ... 5. Where is the Creed placed in the Divine Liturgy (holy Mass)? Always after Gospel (resp. the homily) or also after the dypticha (commemoration of the names), if said?

You may consult the approved texts for the answer to this question. It comes "earlier" in the service, in the WR forms.

> ... 6. Which formulas of the Epiclesis of the Holy Ghost in the Anaphora (Canon of the Mass) are in use?

There are two of which I'm aware. The first is simply the epiclesis from the Liturgy of St. Chrysostom. The second is a non-recurring feast-day prayer from the Gallican service books, for the feast of St. Peter's Throne, which has been made to serve as a recurring epiclesis prayer in the St. Petroc use.

> ...If only this is the case, why is the old Latin/Roman Holy-Ghost-Epiclesis, as it is whitnessed by Pope Gelasius in his letter to Elpidius and litteral in Oldspanish as well as in Beneventians and some other manuscripts, not (yet) restored?

No explicit reference to such a prayer exists in the document record. If the presence of such a prayer is inferred (and some do indeed make this inference), then one needs to come up with a text for it. And the only text known to have been used in that function, is found in the Byz. Liturgy (or, possibly, other Eastern rite services). Thus the phenomenon of the Byzantine epiclesis in the Western Rite Canon Missae.

Regarding Corpus Christi, many WR clergy do not observe this late Roman Catholic custom, and many do observe it. Exactly how they observe it, is something I don't know much about.
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« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2012, 06:47:55 PM »

Caelestinus scripsit:

> ... Why and how is Corpus Christi in the ROCOR Western Rite celebrated?

http://www.rwrv.org/files/FraternityJulianCalendar-2012.pdf

This and the fact, that the modern roman-catholic feast "Christ the King" ist celebrated, is more than astonishing!

I find it quite surprising. I don't know how all these things will "work out," in the end. In the mean time, I have respect for the various clergy with their various usages. 
 
> ... Is it or would it be permitted, that after holy communion in the pascha vigil the neophyts recieve a cup of blessed milk and honey?

This used to be permitted but is no longer permitted. It is a custom which fell out of use and is disallowed by the canons of the Ecumenical councils.

> ... Quote
> ... "The first lesson has been restored
http://www.theorthodoxchurch.org/docs/Liturgy_of_Saint_Greagory-Traditional_Language.pdf

Can anyone of the fraternity or anybody else give clear evidence, that "restauration" in this context is true and not only a supposition?

It is, in essence, creative liturgy and a modern development. There is no evidence that such a thing existed in the Roman Rite prior to the mid-20th century, except by way of exception in the Christmas season.
 
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« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2012, 09:53:28 AM »

Quote
It is, in essence, creative liturgy and a modern development. There is no evidence that such a thing existed in the Roman Rite prior to the mid-20th century, except by way of exception in the Christmas season
So the western rite websites are just lying then?

PP
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« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2012, 01:41:04 PM »

It is, in essence, creative liturgy and a modern development. There is no evidence that such a thing existed in the Roman Rite prior to the mid-20th century, except by way of exception in the Christmas season.

And there is no evidence that the Words of Institution ever existed in the Holy Qurbana of Addai and Mari, yet they exist in the Byzantine rite.  Originally, Holy Communion followed a communal meal.  Clearly, someone got creative somewhere.  So what is your point?  Do you think that the liturgy fell from heaven?  If so, you are an idolater.  The liturgy is not magic, it is not straight from the mouth of Christ, it is a man-made creation.  It can change.  It has changed.  Do you think that the personal preferences of those who composed various parts of the liturgy were completely unaccounted for?  Do you think that the Holy Spirit literally spoke each word to the authors of the liturgies? 

Or, perhaps, you think the Spirit has ceased to work in the Church today; that, for some reason, the Spirit inspired previous liturgical changes, but is completely and totally devoid in the life of those who are engaging in some liturgical change today?
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« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2012, 03:32:01 PM »

Quote
It is, in essence, creative liturgy and a modern development. There is no evidence that such a thing existed in the Roman Rite prior to the mid-20th century, except by way of exception in the Christmas season
So the western rite websites are just lying then?

PP

Probably. Most Western Rite "dialogue" online is full of vitriol, innuendo, suspicion, etc. Forget the Web. Visit a WRO church instead.
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« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2012, 03:43:08 PM »

Quote
It is, in essence, creative liturgy and a modern development. There is no evidence that such a thing existed in the Roman Rite prior to the mid-20th century, except by way of exception in the Christmas season
So the western rite websites are just lying then?

PP

Probably. Most Western Rite "dialogue" online is full of vitriol, innuendo, suspicion, etc. Forget the Web. Visit a WRO church instead.
I do, and will be chrismated in one in 3 weeks. My Church's website also has a link for the get to know the original website. So, lets see some evidence for your accusations.

PP
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« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2012, 03:58:37 PM »

Quote
It is, in essence, creative liturgy and a modern development. There is no evidence that such a thing existed in the Roman Rite prior to the mid-20th century, except by way of exception in the Christmas season
So the western rite websites are just lying then?

PP

Probably. Most Western Rite "dialogue" online is full of vitriol, innuendo, suspicion, etc. Forget the Web. Visit a WRO church instead.
I do, and will be chrismated in one in 3 weeks. My Church's website also has a link for the get to know the original website. So, lets see some evidence for your accusations.

PP

There's a difference between sites done by churches and those done by individuals and conversations on fora. Most church websites don't have axes to grind.
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« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2012, 04:00:15 PM »

Quote
It is, in essence, creative liturgy and a modern development. There is no evidence that such a thing existed in the Roman Rite prior to the mid-20th century, except by way of exception in the Christmas season
So the western rite websites are just lying then?

PP

Probably. Most Western Rite "dialogue" online is full of vitriol, innuendo, suspicion, etc. Forget the Web. Visit a WRO church instead.
I do, and will be chrismated in one in 3 weeks. My Church's website also has a link for the get to know the original website. So, lets see some evidence for your accusations.

PP

There's a difference between sites done by churches and those done by individuals and conversations on fora. Most church websites don't have axes to grind.
Oh, sorry for that then. I thought you were saying that WRO informational sites were lying. Sorry about that. My mistake.

PP
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« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2012, 05:02:05 PM »

Quote
It is, in essence, creative liturgy and a modern development. There is no evidence that such a thing existed in the Roman Rite prior to the mid-20th century, except by way of exception in the Christmas season
So the western rite websites are just lying then?

PP

Probably. Most Western Rite "dialogue" online is full of vitriol, innuendo, suspicion, etc. Forget the Web. Visit a WRO church instead.
I do, and will be chrismated in one in 3 weeks. My Church's website also has a link for the get to know the original website. So, lets see some evidence for your accusations.

PP

There's a difference between sites done by churches and those done by individuals and conversations on fora. Most church websites don't have axes to grind.
Oh, sorry for that then. I thought you were saying that WRO informational sites were lying. Sorry about that. My mistake.

PP

It's all right. I just get bummed by the constant WR online bickering. If there would be more prayer, and less defensiveness, we'd have a lot more spiritual productivity.

"Ah, but which prayers," the naysayers on so many sides say.

"Just pray. Here's a Psalter. Now go away."
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« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2012, 07:08:03 PM »

Primuspilus, congratulations on your upcoming chrismation. May God protect you and your family all the days of your lives.
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« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2012, 08:05:32 PM »

"Just pray. Here's a Psalter. Now go away."
According to which order? Grin
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« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2012, 08:50:36 AM »

Primuspilus, congratulations on your upcoming chrismation. May God protect you and your family all the days of your lives.
Thank you Father. I appreciate that.

Quote
It's all right. I just get bummed by the constant WR online bickering. If there would be more prayer, and less defensiveness, we'd have a lot more spiritual productivity
Aint that the truth.

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"Just pray. Here's a Psalter. Now go away."
Now THAT's spirituality! Smiley Smiley

PP
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« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2012, 09:31:46 PM »

It is, in essence, creative liturgy and a modern development. There is no evidence that such a thing existed in the Roman Rite prior to the mid-20th century, except by way of exception in the Christmas season.

And there is no evidence that the Words of Institution ever existed in the Holy Qurbana of Addai and Mari, yet they exist in the Byzantine rite.  Originally, Holy Communion followed a communal meal.  Clearly, someone got creative somewhere.  So what is your point?  Do you think that the liturgy fell from heaven?  If so, you are an idolater.  The liturgy is not magic, it is not straight from the mouth of Christ, it is a man-made creation.  It can change.  It has changed.  Do you think that the personal preferences of those who composed various parts of the liturgy were completely unaccounted for?  Do you think that the Holy Spirit literally spoke each word to the authors of the liturgies? 

Or, perhaps, you think the Spirit has ceased to work in the Church today; that, for some reason, the Spirit inspired previous liturgical changes, but is completely and totally devoid in the life of those who are engaging in some liturgical change today?

I like watching catechumens pontificate to priests.
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« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2012, 09:37:12 PM »

It is, in essence, creative liturgy and a modern development. There is no evidence that such a thing existed in the Roman Rite prior to the mid-20th century, except by way of exception in the Christmas season.

And there is no evidence that the Words of Institution ever existed in the Holy Qurbana of Addai and Mari, yet they exist in the Byzantine rite.  Originally, Holy Communion followed a communal meal.  Clearly, someone got creative somewhere.  So what is your point?  Do you think that the liturgy fell from heaven?  If so, you are an idolater.  The liturgy is not magic, it is not straight from the mouth of Christ, it is a man-made creation.  It can change.  It has changed.  Do you think that the personal preferences of those who composed various parts of the liturgy were completely unaccounted for?  Do you think that the Holy Spirit literally spoke each word to the authors of the liturgies? 

Or, perhaps, you think the Spirit has ceased to work in the Church today; that, for some reason, the Spirit inspired previous liturgical changes, but is completely and totally devoid in the life of those who are engaging in some liturgical change today?

I, for one, am comforted when I am in an Anglican Church, for example, and hear the sursum corda, the tersanctus, the words of institution, some kind of anamnesis and some kind of epiklesis (preferably in that order).

Don't you feel the same way, James? Is this really just a matter of taste?
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« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2012, 03:10:38 PM »

I understand that Antiochian Western "Riters" eat meat during Lent and Advent.  Angry
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« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2012, 04:01:59 PM »

I understand that Antiochian Western "Riters" eat meat during Lent and Advent.  Angry

Maybe. But they also eat less--as in, that is actually part of their fasting in action, not just in writing. Anyway, there are many ER folks not just in Antioch who don't fast at all, though they are able to. But let us first fast from looking at what others may be eating. The only time to care about that is when our brother has not enough to eat.
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« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2012, 09:37:44 AM »

I understand that Antiochian Western "Riters" eat meat during Lent and Advent.  Angry
There are some that do, and some that do not...just like every other Rite, Church, & Parish.

PP
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« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2012, 08:53:36 PM »

What has been handed down to us in the west as far as fasting durng lent and avent is that meat is not eaten on Wedensday and Friday but that every day is a fasting day(only one full meal after 3pm).
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« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2012, 09:47:09 PM »

Christ is risen.

I am not responding in order to criticize anyone's devotion, practice, or ritual observance. Not my place.

And in this particular posting I am not attaching any value to any fasting practice, as to merit or demerit.

But the historic Western fast rules, as they have come down to us from the Saints and Fathers of the West, and as they were preserved in Roman Catholic canon law until 1910, are very clear: All days in Lent are days of abstinence from all meat and dairy products, including all of the Sundays, and all non-Sundays in Lent are also days of fast, that is, the taking of only one meal per day, to occur rather late in the day (originally 6 pm, then 3 pm, then noon, this easing up a bit as history moved forward).

The above would be the case in the year 800, the year 1000, the year 1200, the year 1400, the year 1600, the year 1800, all the way up until 1910. However, in the very late middle ages and afterwards there occurred a phenomenon of local exceptions to this universal rule, such that by the late 1800s there were probably more places with exceptions of different kinds, than places without exceptions.

Still, the historic, general, universal tradition of the West is clear, unambiguous, and very similar to the rules of the Eastern Orthodox Church. For they both spring from a common source or well: patristic Christianity and apostolic tradition.
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« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2012, 10:05:15 PM »

Truly He is Risen!
Thank you for correcting me Father! This is just what I was taught and I had read somewhere it was the historical practice
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« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2012, 10:08:44 PM »

It is historic practice, and a few Western Rite Orthodox Christians still follow those rules, but the majority do not.

Also, some WR Orthodox who otherwise follow those historical Western rules, implement on top of them the canons of the Sixth Ecumenical Council which forbid fasting (as opposed to abstinence) on Saturdays. Thus, they commute the original Saturday fasting to simple abstinence, treating Saturdays just like Sundays.
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« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2012, 06:00:21 PM »

"Just pray. Here's a Psalter. Now go away."
According to which order? Grin

The one in the Vulgate, of course.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2012, 06:26:52 AM »

I am a member of an Antiochian WR parish and we follow Eastern fasting rules.
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« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2012, 09:26:27 AM »

Quote
It is, in essence, creative liturgy and a modern development. There is no evidence that such a thing existed in the Roman Rite prior to the mid-20th century, except by way of exception in the Christmas season
So the western rite websites are just lying then?

PP

Probably. Most Western Rite "dialogue" online is full of vitriol, innuendo, suspicion, etc. Forget the Web. Visit a WRO church instead.
I do, and will be chrismated in one in 3 weeks. My Church's website also has a link for the get to know the original website. So, lets see some evidence for your accusations.

PP

There's a difference between sites done by churches and those done by individuals and conversations on fora. Most church websites don't have axes to grind.
Oh, sorry for that then. I thought you were saying that WRO informational sites were lying. Sorry about that. My mistake.

PP

It's all right. I just get bummed by the constant WR online bickering. If there would be more prayer, and less defensiveness, we'd have a lot more spiritual productivity.

"Ah, but which prayers," the naysayers on so many sides say.

"Just pray. Here's a Psalter. Now go away."

lol! "Which prayers" indeed :-).
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