OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 03, 2014, 01:31:42 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Canon 4 of The First Vatican Council on Faith and some Catholics today.  (Read 344 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Raylight
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian.
Posts: 1,614


Lord Have Mercy on the victims of 9/11.


« on: August 21, 2014, 02:16:21 PM »

Hi.

While I was reading Vatican I documents, I come across a canon on faith which I liked so much and says


" 4. If anyone says that all miracles are impossible, and that therefore all reports of them, even those contained in sacred scripture, are to be set aside as fables or myths; or that miracles can never be known with certainty, nor can the divine origin of the christian religion be proved from them: let him be anathema. "

I came across many Catholic priests and even bishops and theologians who denied or at least doubted some of the miracles mentioned in the sacred scripture. The bishop of my country himself in one of his books answered question regarding the miracle of Jonah and he said that they may never happened but instead of that we should look at them as a sign for what to come, which is Christ Himself.  

I have no objection in looking at the miracles in the OT as signs for Christ, I actually see them as clear signs for Christ, but I also won't go and deny that they ever happened.

Now my question is, wouldn't those priests and bishops who doubt the miracles mentioned in the Bible be anathematized based on the canon above ?

The source of the canon   http://www.piustheninth.com/apps2/app9.htm

« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 02:30:08 PM by Raylight » Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,005


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2014, 02:46:44 PM »

" 4. If anyone says that all miracles are impossible, and that therefore all reports of them, even those contained in sacred scripture, are to be set aside as fables or myths; or that miracles can never be known with certainty, nor can the divine origin of the Christian religion be proved from them: let him be anathema. "

The first few clauses are okay, but this last part, which has been bolded, scares me.  The Christian religion is not proven by miracles. We accept Christ by grace and by faith. And what is grace but a participation in the Divine Energies of God. Faith is also a gift of God.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 02:48:14 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,579


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2014, 02:57:28 PM »

" 4. If anyone says that all miracles are impossible, and that therefore all reports of them, even those contained in sacred scripture, are to be set aside as fables or myths; or that miracles can never be known with certainty, nor can the divine origin of the Christian religion be proved from them: let him be anathema. "

The first few clauses are okay, but this last part, which has been bolded, scares me.  The Christian religion is not proven by miracles. We accept Christ by grace and by faith. And what is grace but a participation in the Divine Energies of God. Faith is also a gift of God.

Have you ever read the Bible?  God's always proving it with miracles. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,005


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2014, 03:29:19 PM »

" 4. If anyone says that all miracles are impossible, and that therefore all reports of them, even those contained in sacred scripture, are to be set aside as fables or myths; or that miracles can never be known with certainty, nor can the divine origin of the Christian religion be proved from them: let him be anathema. "

The first few clauses are okay, but this last part, which has been bolded, scares me.  The Christian religion is not proven by miracles. We accept Christ by grace and by faith. And what is grace but a participation in the Divine Energies of God. Faith is also a gift of God.

Have you ever read the Bible?  God's always proving it with miracles.  

The Roman Catholic Church has an inclination to define everything in minute detail. In my opinion, if that last clause were not included, the paragraph would have been okay. However, the RCC is lead by St. Thomas Aquinas and his proofs for the existence of God (and the Church).

Sometimes less is best.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 03:29:52 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Raylight
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian.
Posts: 1,614


Lord Have Mercy on the victims of 9/11.


« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2014, 03:34:21 PM »

" 4. If anyone says that all miracles are impossible, and that therefore all reports of them, even those contained in sacred scripture, are to be set aside as fables or myths; or that miracles can never be known with certainty, nor can the divine origin of the Christian religion be proved from them: let him be anathema. "

The first few clauses are okay, but this last part, which has been bolded, scares me.  The Christian religion is not proven by miracles. We accept Christ by grace and by faith. And what is grace but a participation in the Divine Energies of God. Faith is also a gift of God.

Oh, so what do you call Christ's resurrection ? A normal event that happens to people every once in awhile I guess ?!

What about the Virgin Birth ? The Eucharist itself is a living miracle. Christ healing the sick and raising the dead are miracles.

There are plenty of miracles that prove the Christian religion. The prophecies about Christ Himself in the OT are miracles which when I read them I couldn't BUT believe them and therefor believe in Christ.

Just because today's world doesn't like miracles or doesn't believe them, it doesn't mean we should reject them as a prove for our faith. God doesn't send miracles just for us to deny them few years later. He send miracles to strength our faith and to show us that He is God, He is all powerful, all great, and nothing stop in His way to do His own will.

If I will go by what you said Maria, then I should say to you " Well, Christ's resurrection doesn't prove Christianity ".
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,005


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2014, 03:51:23 PM »

" 4. If anyone says that all miracles are impossible, and that therefore all reports of them, even those contained in sacred scripture, are to be set aside as fables or myths; or that miracles can never be known with certainty, nor can the divine origin of the Christian religion be proved from them: let him be anathema. "

The first few clauses are okay, but this last part, which has been bolded, scares me.  The Christian religion is not proven by miracles. We accept Christ by grace and by faith. And what is grace but a participation in the Divine Energies of God. Faith is also a gift of God.

Oh, so what do you call Christ's resurrection ? A normal event that happens to people every once in awhile I guess ?!

What about the Virgin Birth ? The Eucharist itself is a living miracle. Christ healing the sick and raising the dead are miracles.

There are plenty of miracles that prove the Christian religion. The prophecies about Christ Himself in the OT are miracles which when I read them I couldn't BUT believe them and therefor believe in Christ.

Just because today's world doesn't like miracles or doesn't believe them, it doesn't mean we should reject them as a prove for our faith. God doesn't send miracles just for us to deny them few years later. He send miracles to strength our faith and to show us that He is God, He is all powerful, all great, and nothing stop in His way to do His own will.

If I will go by what you said Maria, then I should say to you " Well, Christ's resurrection doesn't prove Christianity ".

Then why did Christ say immediately after His Holy Resurrection,
"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

John 20:29
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 03:52:25 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Raylight
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian.
Posts: 1,614


Lord Have Mercy on the victims of 9/11.


« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2014, 04:26:04 PM »

" 4. If anyone says that all miracles are impossible, and that therefore all reports of them, even those contained in sacred scripture, are to be set aside as fables or myths; or that miracles can never be known with certainty, nor can the divine origin of the Christian religion be proved from them: let him be anathema. "

The first few clauses are okay, but this last part, which has been bolded, scares me.  The Christian religion is not proven by miracles. We accept Christ by grace and by faith. And what is grace but a participation in the Divine Energies of God. Faith is also a gift of God.

Oh, so what do you call Christ's resurrection ? A normal event that happens to people every once in awhile I guess ?!

What about the Virgin Birth ? The Eucharist itself is a living miracle. Christ healing the sick and raising the dead are miracles.

There are plenty of miracles that prove the Christian religion. The prophecies about Christ Himself in the OT are miracles which when I read them I couldn't BUT believe them and therefor believe in Christ.

Just because today's world doesn't like miracles or doesn't believe them, it doesn't mean we should reject them as a prove for our faith. God doesn't send miracles just for us to deny them few years later. He send miracles to strength our faith and to show us that He is God, He is all powerful, all great, and nothing stop in His way to do His own will.

If I will go by what you said Maria, then I should say to you " Well, Christ's resurrection doesn't prove Christianity ".

Then why did Christ say immediately after His Holy Resurrection,
"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

John 20:29


Then why did Christ do all the miracles during his life on earth ?

What I said and what the paragraph said doesn't contradict what Christ said. It is true that blessed are those who believe without seeing, but does that mean that damned are those who believe after seeing ?! Of course not, because then Tom himself is damned, because he didn't believe until he saw. St Paul will be damned because he believed only after he saw Christ. And what Christ said doesn't mean miracles can't be used as prove for Christianity.

Logged
Raylight
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian.
Posts: 1,614


Lord Have Mercy on the victims of 9/11.


« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2014, 04:27:58 PM »

I still wonder what is the state of some Catholic priests, bishops and theologians who doubt some of the miracles mentioned in the Bible and even deny them. Because canon 4 of the First Vatican Council on faith seems like to anathematize those priests and bishops.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,579


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2014, 04:31:18 PM »

I still wonder what is the state of some Catholic priests, bishops and theologians who doubt some of the miracles mentioned in the Bible and even deny them. Because canon 4 of the First Vatican Council on faith seems like to anathematize those priests and bishops.

Why do you care? 

Anyway, the anathema doesn't seem to be against those who do not believe in one or more miracles but rather against those who deny that "all miracles are impossible".
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,005


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2014, 04:40:30 PM »

I still wonder what is the state of some Catholic priests, bishops and theologians who doubt some of the miracles mentioned in the Bible and even deny them. Because canon 4 of the First Vatican Council on faith seems like to anathematize those priests and bishops.

Canon 4 was produced at a very convenient time in Roman Catholicism.

In 1854, there was the declaration of the Blessed Virgin Mary as being the "Immaculate Conception."
Only four years later, in 1858,  there were the apparitions at Lourdes where the BVM declared herself to be the "Immaculate Conception."

Quote
Although the belief that Mary was sinless and conceived immaculate has been widely held since Late Antiquity, the doctrine was not dogmatically defined until 1854, by Pope Pius IX in his papal bull Ineffabilis Deus.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

Quote
"Thursday, March 25, 1858"

"I went every day for a fortnight, and each day I asked her who she was–and this petition always made her smile. After the fortnight I asked her three times consecutively. She always smiled. At last I tried for the fourth time. She stopped smiling. With her arms down, she raised her eyes to heaven and then, folding her hands over her breast she said, 'I am the Immaculate Conception.' Then I went back to M. le Curé to tell him that she had said she was the Immaculate Conception, and he asked was I absolutely certain. I said yes, and so as not to forget the words, I had repeated them all the way home."

http://www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/bg_lourdes_conception.htm

Twelve years later, in 1870, Vatican I was held in which Canon 4 was defined.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Raylight
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian.
Posts: 1,614


Lord Have Mercy on the victims of 9/11.


« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2014, 04:41:16 PM »

I still wonder what is the state of some Catholic priests, bishops and theologians who doubt some of the miracles mentioned in the Bible and even deny them. Because canon 4 of the First Vatican Council on faith seems like to anathematize those priests and bishops.

Why do you care?  

Anyway, the anathema doesn't seem to be against those who do not believe in one or more miracles but rather against those who deny that "all miracles are impossible".

Of course I care. Why shouldn't I care ?! I want to make sure that the priests and bishops of the Catholic Church are on the right path with the Church herself. Otherwise, we will have a Catholic Spong.

Thank you for the reply, it does make sense. Smiley







« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 04:41:54 PM by Raylight » Logged
Raylight
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian.
Posts: 1,614


Lord Have Mercy on the victims of 9/11.


« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2014, 04:46:19 PM »

I still wonder what is the state of some Catholic priests, bishops and theologians who doubt some of the miracles mentioned in the Bible and even deny them. Because canon 4 of the First Vatican Council on faith seems like to anathematize those priests and bishops.

Canon 4 was produced at a very convenient time in Roman Catholicism.

In 1854, there was the declaration of the Blessed Virgin Mary as being the "Immaculate Conception."
Only four years later, in 1858,  there were the apparitions at Lourdes where the BVM declared herself to be the "Immaculate Conception."

Quote
Although the belief that Mary was sinless and conceived immaculate has been widely held since Late Antiquity, the doctrine was not dogmatically defined until 1854, by Pope Pius IX in his papal bull Ineffabilis Deus.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

Quote
"Thursday, March 25, 1858"

"I went every day for a fortnight, and each day I asked her who she was–and this petition always made her smile. After the fortnight I asked her three times consecutively. She always smiled. At last I tried for the fourth time. She stopped smiling. With her arms down, she raised her eyes to heaven and then, folding her hands over her breast she said, 'I am the Immaculate Conception.' Then I went back to M. le Curé to tell him that she had said she was the Immaculate Conception, and he asked was I absolutely certain. I said yes, and so as not to forget the words, I had repeated them all the way home."

http://www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/bg_lourdes_conception.htm

Twelve years later, in 1870, Vatican I was held in which Canon 4 was defined.

But the canon itself doesn't apply to the Virgin Mary alone. It applies to the Bible itself and to all miracles in it and in the history of the Church. Plus, that doesn't mean the canon stopped apply on us today.

Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,005


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2014, 04:46:25 PM »

Later, there were the apparitions of Fatima, where once again, the BVM declared herself to be "the Immaculate Conception."

And now, we are seeing the continual "miracles on demand" at Medjugorje where a ghost like apparition started appearing precisely on the 40th anniversary of the Serbian Orthodox Christian genocide..

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,005


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2014, 04:49:01 PM »

I still wonder what is the state of some Catholic priests, bishops and theologians who doubt some of the miracles mentioned in the Bible and even deny them. Because canon 4 of the First Vatican Council on faith seems like to anathematize those priests and bishops.

Canon 4 was produced at a very convenient time in Roman Catholicism.

In 1854, there was the declaration of the Blessed Virgin Mary as being the "Immaculate Conception."
Only four years later, in 1858,  there were the apparitions at Lourdes where the BVM declared herself to be the "Immaculate Conception."

Quote
Although the belief that Mary was sinless and conceived immaculate has been widely held since Late Antiquity, the doctrine was not dogmatically defined until 1854, by Pope Pius IX in his papal bull Ineffabilis Deus.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

Quote
"Thursday, March 25, 1858"

"I went every day for a fortnight, and each day I asked her who she was–and this petition always made her smile. After the fortnight I asked her three times consecutively. She always smiled. At last I tried for the fourth time. She stopped smiling. With her arms down, she raised her eyes to heaven and then, folding her hands over her breast she said, 'I am the Immaculate Conception.' Then I went back to M. le Curé to tell him that she had said she was the Immaculate Conception, and he asked was I absolutely certain. I said yes, and so as not to forget the words, I had repeated them all the way home."

http://www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/bg_lourdes_conception.htm

Twelve years later, in 1870, Vatican I was held in which Canon 4 was defined.

But the canon itself doesn't apply to the Virgin Mary alone. It applies to the Bible itself and to all miracles in it and in the history of the Church. Plus, that doesn't mean the canon stopped apply on us today.



If the canon is still in force, then why are these "Catholic theologians" debunking biblical miracles as myths. Yes, I did study at a Catholic university, and yes, I was exposed to these "theologians."
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Raylight
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian.
Posts: 1,614


Lord Have Mercy on the victims of 9/11.


« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2014, 04:53:07 PM »

I still wonder what is the state of some Catholic priests, bishops and theologians who doubt some of the miracles mentioned in the Bible and even deny them. Because canon 4 of the First Vatican Council on faith seems like to anathematize those priests and bishops.

Canon 4 was produced at a very convenient time in Roman Catholicism.

In 1854, there was the declaration of the Blessed Virgin Mary as being the "Immaculate Conception."
Only four years later, in 1858,  there were the apparitions at Lourdes where the BVM declared herself to be the "Immaculate Conception."

Quote
Although the belief that Mary was sinless and conceived immaculate has been widely held since Late Antiquity, the doctrine was not dogmatically defined until 1854, by Pope Pius IX in his papal bull Ineffabilis Deus.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

Quote
"Thursday, March 25, 1858"

"I went every day for a fortnight, and each day I asked her who she was–and this petition always made her smile. After the fortnight I asked her three times consecutively. She always smiled. At last I tried for the fourth time. She stopped smiling. With her arms down, she raised her eyes to heaven and then, folding her hands over her breast she said, 'I am the Immaculate Conception.' Then I went back to M. le Curé to tell him that she had said she was the Immaculate Conception, and he asked was I absolutely certain. I said yes, and so as not to forget the words, I had repeated them all the way home."

http://www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/bg_lourdes_conception.htm

Twelve years later, in 1870, Vatican I was held in which Canon 4 was defined.

But the canon itself doesn't apply to the Virgin Mary alone. It applies to the Bible itself and to all miracles in it and in the history of the Church. Plus, that doesn't mean the canon stopped apply on us today.



If the canon is still in force, then why are these "Catholic theologians" debunking biblical miracles as myths. Yes, I did study at a Catholic university, and yes, I was exposed to these "theologians."

And that is very sad thing. I was also exposed to these theologians by their writings and I totally disagree with them. And that is why lately I'm leaning to the Traditionalist Catholic point of view ( which I never thought of doing ) , because they seem to be more on line with the Church than other Catholics.

Those "theologians" are the children of the secular theology that deny the supernatural. And since they deny the supernatural, of course they will have to deny the miracles mentioned in the sacred scripture.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 04:56:20 PM by Raylight » Logged
Ekdikos
Warned
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Serbia - Diocese of Banja Luka
Posts: 397



« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2014, 05:16:04 PM »

Why do you exactly go on Orthodox message board to inquire about Roman Catholic faith?I dont mind it, just I find it odd.
Logged

Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,005


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2014, 05:20:13 PM »

Why do you exactly go on Orthodox message board to inquire about Roman Catholic faith?I dont mind it, just I find it odd.

He has been on a search. Some people need time. Prayers would be helpful at this time.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Ekdikos
Warned
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Serbia - Diocese of Banja Luka
Posts: 397



« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2014, 05:22:56 PM »

Why do you exactly go on Orthodox message board to inquire about Roman Catholic faith?I dont mind it, just I find it odd.

He has been on a search. Some people need time. Prayers would be helpful at this time.

I think Raylight is she.
Logged

Raylight
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian.
Posts: 1,614


Lord Have Mercy on the victims of 9/11.


« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2014, 05:26:30 PM »

Why do you exactly go on Orthodox message board to inquire about Roman Catholic faith?I dont mind it, just I find it odd.

He has been on a search. Some people need time. Prayers would be helpful at this time.

I think Raylight is she.

Wrong, I'm he not she.

And this is a religious topics section where all kinds of religious topics can be discussed.  I also mentioned in another thread why I might ask a question regarding Catholicism in an Orthodox forum. The thread was about Traditionalist Catholicism Smiley
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,005


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2014, 05:28:49 PM »

I still wonder what is the state of some Catholic priests, bishops and theologians who doubt some of the miracles mentioned in the Bible and even deny them. Because canon 4 of the First Vatican Council on faith seems like to anathematize those priests and bishops.

Anyway, the anathema doesn't seem to be against those who do not believe in one or more miracles but rather against those who deny that "all miracles are impossible".

Oh, a deliberate loophole. Thanks for pointing this out. Someone would really have to be a reprobate to deny ALL miracles, even the miracle of life when a baby is born.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Ekdikos
Warned
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Serbia - Diocese of Banja Luka
Posts: 397



« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2014, 05:34:01 PM »

Why do you exactly go on Orthodox message board to inquire about Roman Catholic faith?I dont mind it, just I find it odd.

He has been on a search. Some people need time. Prayers would be helpful at this time.

I think Raylight is she.

Wrong, I'm he not she.

And this is a religious topics section where all kinds of religious topics can be discussed.  I also mentioned in another thread why I might ask a question regarding Catholicism in an Orthodox forum. The thread was about Traditionalist Catholicism Smiley

Well...
1) We consider ourselves to be Catholics, and Orthodoxy=Roman Catholicism.
2) No offense, but this is not best place to inquire About Roman Catholicism, RCC members here are not numerous, and they are not theologians. And in most cases they do not represent SSPX kind of Roman Catholicism.
Logged

Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,005


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2014, 05:39:28 PM »

Why do you exactly go on Orthodox message board to inquire about Roman Catholic faith?I dont mind it, just I find it odd.

He has been on a search. Some people need time. Prayers would be helpful at this time.

I think Raylight is she.

Wrong, I'm he not she.

And this is a religious topics section where all kinds of religious topics can be discussed.  I also mentioned in another thread why I might ask a question regarding Catholicism in an Orthodox forum. The thread was about Traditionalist Catholicism Smiley

Well...
1) We consider ourselves to be Catholics, and Orthodoxy=Roman Catholicism.
2) No offense, but this is not best place to inquire About Roman Catholicism, RCC members here are not numerous, and they are not theologians. And in most cases they do not represent SSPX kind of Roman Catholicism.


However, this board grants individuals the freedom to disagree with the magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church. Various Catholic boards will ban anyone who questions Roman Catholic dogmas or even hints that they might be interested in Eastern Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Raylight
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian.
Posts: 1,614


Lord Have Mercy on the victims of 9/11.


« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2014, 05:47:14 PM »

Why do you exactly go on Orthodox message board to inquire about Roman Catholic faith?I dont mind it, just I find it odd.

He has been on a search. Some people need time. Prayers would be helpful at this time.

I think Raylight is she.

Wrong, I'm he not she.

And this is a religious topics section where all kinds of religious topics can be discussed.  I also mentioned in another thread why I might ask a question regarding Catholicism in an Orthodox forum. The thread was about Traditionalist Catholicism Smiley

Well...
1) We consider ourselves to be Catholics, and Orthodoxy=Roman Catholicism.
2) No offense, but this is not best place to inquire About Roman Catholicism, RCC members here are not numerous, and they are not theologians. And in most cases they do not represent SSPX kind of Roman Catholicism.


"SSPX" ? Who mentioned SSPX ?

I have the official full Catechism of the Catholic Church. I have a summary for the Catechism. I have a book which contains the most important documents of the Catholic Church councils for the last 2000 years. I begun not just reading them, but studying them, taking notes as if I'm studying for the exams. However, they are more than 2000 page and even get to 3000 page. However, I'm asking this question to know what Catholics think of this and even Orthodox. Like Mor Ephrem who answered my question and made things clear somehow.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 05:52:03 PM by Raylight » Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,579


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2014, 06:02:14 PM »

Of course I care. Why shouldn't I care ?! I want to make sure that the priests and bishops of the Catholic Church are on the right path with the Church herself. Otherwise, we will have a Catholic Spong.

Who is "we"?  And why is it your responsibility to ensure that Roman Catholic clergy are in fact "on the right path"?  It's all rather odd to me. 

Quote
Thank you for the reply, it does make sense. Smiley

You're welcome. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,579


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2014, 06:03:47 PM »

Later, there were the apparitions of Fatima, where once again, the BVM declared herself to be "the Immaculate Conception."


Source?
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,579


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2014, 06:05:13 PM »

I still wonder what is the state of some Catholic priests, bishops and theologians who doubt some of the miracles mentioned in the Bible and even deny them. Because canon 4 of the First Vatican Council on faith seems like to anathematize those priests and bishops.

Anyway, the anathema doesn't seem to be against those who do not believe in one or more miracles but rather against those who deny that "all miracles are impossible".

Oh, a deliberate loophole. Thanks for pointing this out. Someone would really have to be a reprobate to deny ALL miracles, even the miracle of life when a baby is born.

Somehow, I think Vatican I had a narrower definition of "miracle" in mind.
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Raylight
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian.
Posts: 1,614


Lord Have Mercy on the victims of 9/11.


« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2014, 08:26:46 PM »

Of course I care. Why shouldn't I care ?! I want to make sure that the priests and bishops of the Catholic Church are on the right path with the Church herself. Otherwise, we will have a Catholic Spong.

Who is "we"?  And why is it your responsibility to ensure that Roman Catholic clergy are in fact "on the right path"?  It's all rather odd to me. 

Quote
Thank you for the reply, it does make sense. Smiley

You're welcome. 

By "we" I mean Catholics.

You remember when I discovered Anglicanism, I loved everything about it, it was the perfect one, but I couldn't no matter what I did, I couldn't get over the fact that large number of the clergy are denying many basic Christian beliefs. I tried and tried but couldn't. Because if the heads of the Church, if those who SHOULD lead us to the way, if those who we trust to guide us in our journey, are heretics, and not worthy of trust, then we have a major problem. That is why I believe it is the duty of every Christian to make sure that the clergy are on the right path. Otherwise, things will get very ugly.
Logged
Misplaced Book
Don't Mind Me.....
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Constantinople
Posts: 136



« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2014, 09:09:36 PM »

Of course I care. Why shouldn't I care ?! I want to make sure that the priests and bishops of the Catholic Church are on the right path with the Church herself. Otherwise, we will have a Catholic Spong.

Who is "we"?  And why is it your responsibility to ensure that Roman Catholic clergy are in fact "on the right path"?  It's all rather odd to me. 

Quote
Thank you for the reply, it does make sense. Smiley

You're welcome. 

By "we" I mean Catholics.

You remember when I discovered Anglicanism, I loved everything about it, it was the perfect one, but I couldn't no matter what I did, I couldn't get over the fact that large number of the clergy are denying many basic Christian beliefs. I tried and tried but couldn't. Because if the heads of the Church, if those who SHOULD lead us to the way, if those who we trust to guide us in our journey, are heretics, and not worthy of trust, then we have a major problem. That is why I believe it is the duty of every Christian to make sure that the clergy are on the right path. Otherwise, things will get very ugly.


Raylight,

Listen to Mor.    The most important thing is that we tend to our own souls, and let the rest fall into place, as God wills.   

It isn't our place to "crusade" against heresy.   If there is heresy, it will be dealt with as God wills.   

That is why we have the Men in Black  (Bishops).

Trust the Holy Spirit....God does not abandon his children.   
Logged
xOrthodox4Christx
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 3,051



« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2014, 09:34:14 PM »

Of course I care. Why shouldn't I care ?! I want to make sure that the priests and bishops of the Catholic Church are on the right path with the Church herself. Otherwise, we will have a Catholic Spong.

Who is "we"?  And why is it your responsibility to ensure that Roman Catholic clergy are in fact "on the right path"?  It's all rather odd to me. 

Quote
Thank you for the reply, it does make sense. Smiley

You're welcome. 

+1 The Pope is the headmaster of Rome, he can sort out his Church's problems.
Logged

"Rationalists are admirable beings, rationalism is a hideous monster when it claims for itself omnipotence. Attribution of omnipotence to reason is as bad a piece of idolatry as is worship of stock and stone, believing it to be God." (Mahatma Gandhi)
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,005


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2014, 09:45:30 PM »

I still wonder what is the state of some Catholic priests, bishops and theologians who doubt some of the miracles mentioned in the Bible and even deny them. Because canon 4 of the First Vatican Council on faith seems like to anathematize those priests and bishops.

Anyway, the anathema doesn't seem to be against those who do not believe in one or more miracles but rather against those who deny that "all miracles are impossible".

Oh, a deliberate loophole. Thanks for pointing this out. Someone would really have to be a reprobate to deny ALL miracles, even the miracle of life when a baby is born.

Somehow, I think Vatican I had a narrower definition of "miracle" in mind.

Example?
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,579


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2014, 11:10:47 PM »

I still wonder what is the state of some Catholic priests, bishops and theologians who doubt some of the miracles mentioned in the Bible and even deny them. Because canon 4 of the First Vatican Council on faith seems like to anathematize those priests and bishops.

Anyway, the anathema doesn't seem to be against those who do not believe in one or more miracles but rather against those who deny that "all miracles are impossible".

Oh, a deliberate loophole. Thanks for pointing this out. Someone would really have to be a reprobate to deny ALL miracles, even the miracle of life when a baby is born.

Somehow, I think Vatican I had a narrower definition of "miracle" in mind.

Example?

It's not like if I pray to Mother Teresa and then go get someone pregnant that this in itself would convince Rome to canonise her. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Porter ODoran
Erst Amish Appalachian
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 1,737


And primitivist Platonist patrologist poseur


« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2014, 01:40:39 AM »

Why do you exactly go on Orthodox message board to inquire about Roman Catholic faith?I dont mind it, just I find it odd.

As I recall, some of the Catholic forums with a trigger-happy reputation have banned him.
Logged

In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus
Porter ODoran
Erst Amish Appalachian
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 1,737


And primitivist Platonist patrologist poseur


« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2014, 01:42:33 AM »

I still wonder what is the state of some Catholic priests, bishops and theologians who doubt some of the miracles mentioned in the Bible and even deny them. Because canon 4 of the First Vatican Council on faith seems like to anathematize those priests and bishops.

Anyway, the anathema doesn't seem to be against those who do not believe in one or more miracles but rather against those who deny that "all miracles are impossible".

Oh, a deliberate loophole. Thanks for pointing this out. Someone would really have to be a reprobate to deny ALL miracles, even the miracle of life when a baby is born.

Somehow, I think Vatican I had a narrower definition of "miracle" in mind.

Example?

It's not like if I pray to Mother Teresa and then go get someone pregnant that this in itself would convince Rome to canonise her. 

laugh
Logged

In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,005


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2014, 01:45:23 AM »

Why do you exactly go on Orthodox message board to inquire about Roman Catholic faith?I dont mind it, just I find it odd.

As I recall, some of the Catholic forums with a trigger-happy reputation have banned him.

Is that merely your supposition?
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Porter ODoran
Erst Amish Appalachian
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 1,737


And primitivist Platonist patrologist poseur


« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2014, 01:50:58 AM »

No, it is my recollection. Raylight can speak for himself, but he has spoken of this before.
Logged

In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,579


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2014, 01:51:17 AM »

Why do you exactly go on Orthodox message board to inquire about Roman Catholic faith?I dont mind it, just I find it odd.

As I recall, some of the Catholic forums with a trigger-happy reputation have banned him.

Is that merely your supposition?

You know what they say about suppositories...
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,452


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2014, 01:59:29 AM »

Why do you exactly go on Orthodox message board to inquire about Roman Catholic faith?I dont mind it, just I find it odd.

As I recall, some of the Catholic forums with a trigger-happy reputation have banned him.

Is that merely your supposition?
Rumor has it Monsanto execs took over most Catholic forum moderator positions. Rather than singling people out and banning them individually, they've found RoundUp to be more effective.
Logged

Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,005


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2014, 01:59:36 AM »

Why do you exactly go on Orthodox message board to inquire about Roman Catholic faith?I dont mind it, just I find it odd.

As I recall, some of the Catholic forums with a trigger-happy reputation have banned him.

Is that merely your supposition?

You know what they say about suppositories...

Mor, I was not asking you.
But since you volunteered. You can have mine to use. I do not need them.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,005


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2014, 02:02:59 AM »

Why do you exactly go on Orthodox message board to inquire about Roman Catholic faith?I dont mind it, just I find it odd.

As I recall, some of the Catholic forums with a trigger-happy reputation have banned him.

Is that merely your supposition?
Rumor has it Monsanto execs took over most Catholic forum moderator positions. Rather than singling people out and banning them individually, they've found RoundUp to be more effective.

LOL That could be true, but I would think that Monsanto execs would buy these forums and then hire mods, who are always willing to work without pay, to do their dirty work of getting rid of any opposition.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Raylight
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian.
Posts: 1,614


Lord Have Mercy on the victims of 9/11.


« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2014, 02:42:07 AM »

Yes, I was banned in a Catholic forum.  police The forum is very well known for the large number of banned members.

However, it is very different here, I remember seeing only 2 members that are banned, which means...

OC.Net is the land of freedom in the world of the internet.  Grin
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 02:43:45 AM by Raylight » Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,005


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2014, 02:47:13 AM »

Yes, I was banned in a Catholic forum.  police The forum is very well known for the large number of banned members.

However, it is very different here, I remember seeing only 2 members that are banned, which means...

OC.Net is the land of freedom in the world of the internet.  Grin

Yes, dissent in that Catholic forum is punishable by banning, but it is strange that the Pope does not excommunicate.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.166 seconds with 69 queries.