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Author Topic: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended  (Read 6211 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: March 15, 2012, 10:55:58 PM »

I meant for my remark to be understood as TheMathematician presented it.
Thank You for helping to clarify my position.
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« Reply #136 on: March 15, 2012, 11:16:02 PM »

We are pastoral, not legalistic.  Wink

I've been taught that the Priest is also "The Defender of the Eucharist" and it falls upon him to decide who shall receive and who shall not.

Concerning the priest who specifically taught me that, I'd only seen him refuse someone Communion twice and both times he spoke them to very quietly and what was clearly an apologetic manner.

I've seen people refused communion a good 6 or 7 times. Almost always for not having a recent enough confession. No biggie.

At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion. I am proud of her. She got it right. She was a valued part of the community but until that part of her life comes into concert with the teachings of the Church she belongs to, she refrains from approaching the chalice.

We all have sh.. to work out. God Bless her and God Bless the Church for holding us all to a greater image of what we can be. No one said it would be easy. If you want easy there are other choices out there.

We all have issues to sort out, but for people who are not gay they can receive communion.  Suppose I look at internet pornography all the time.  As long as I go to confession every Saturday that means I receive communion.  Nobody would think twice about it.  But if a person is gay, it is the end of the world. 

Well of course.  We are to be the salt of the earth; gay people are the pepper.
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« Reply #137 on: March 15, 2012, 11:16:02 PM »

Everyone should stop using the word 'accept' with regards to Christ's actions, until they provide their understanding of the word 'accept.'  To do otherwise is to invite a long argument wherein everyone talks past one another.
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« Reply #138 on: March 16, 2012, 02:12:03 PM »

Suppose I look at internet pornography all the time.  As long as I go to confession every Saturday that means I receive communion.  Nobody would think twice about it.  But if a person is gay, it is the end of the world. 

Sorry, but about the second or third time that you confessed the same sin to the same priest, he's going to start withholding absolution and communion since you are treating them as some sort of joke.

As to the end of the world for someone who is "gay", that's wrong as well. Having the attraction is not the sin, as we all know.
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« Reply #139 on: March 16, 2012, 02:19:52 PM »

Our Lord accepted people as he found them. He did not leave them that way.

After telling them to "Go and sin no more."
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« Reply #140 on: March 16, 2012, 04:14:18 PM »

We are pastoral, not legalistic.  Wink

I've been taught that the Priest is also "The Defender of the Eucharist" and it falls upon him to decide who shall receive and who shall not.

Concerning the priest who specifically taught me that, I'd only seen him refuse someone Communion twice and both times he spoke them to very quietly and what was clearly an apologetic manner.

I've seen people refused communion a good 6 or 7 times. Almost always for not having a recent enough confession. No biggie.

At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion. I am proud of her. She got it right. She was a valued part of the community but until that part of her life comes into concert with the teachings of the Church she belongs to, she refrains from approaching the chalice.

We all have sh.. to work out. God Bless her and God Bless the Church for holding us all to a greater image of what we can be. No one said it would be easy. If you want easy there are other choices out there.

We all have issues to sort out, but for people who are not gay they can receive communion.  Suppose I look at internet pornography all the time.  As long as I go to confession every Saturday that means I receive communion.  Nobody would think twice about it.  But if a person is gay, it is the end of the world. 

Well of course.  We are to be the salt of the earth; gay people are the pepper.

Nice! Although, I would have gone with sugar or spice, inclusive or exclusive or there. The one between sugar and spice.

English is stupid. We need another or. How do you pronounce XOR?
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« Reply #141 on: March 16, 2012, 04:20:49 PM »

Suppose I look at internet pornography all the time.  As long as I go to confession every Saturday that means I receive communion.  Nobody would think twice about it.  But if a person is gay, it is the end of the world. 

Sorry, but about the second or third time that you confessed the same sin to the same priest, he's going to start withholding absolution and communion since you are treating them as some sort of joke.


Not necessarily.

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?"

It is certainly possible that someone can commit a sin and at the outset think, "No big deal, I'll confess and be in and out in five minutes". However, it is not the case that someone can master their own weaknesses after two or three stumbles. What a blessing it would be if that were the case!

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« Reply #142 on: March 16, 2012, 04:53:36 PM »

Sorry, but about the second or third time that you confessed the same sin to the same priest, he's going to start withholding absolution and communion since you are treating them as some sort of joke.

That is way too broad a statement. I can attest from direct experience with multiple priests that that is not how it works--perhaps sometimes, but by no means always.
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« Reply #143 on: March 16, 2012, 05:51:48 PM »

Sorry, but about the second or third time that you confessed the same sin to the same priest, he's going to start withholding absolution and communion since you are treating them as some sort of joke.

That is way too broad a statement. I can attest from direct experience with multiple priests that that is not how it works--perhaps sometimes, but by no means always.

Right - but imagine the scandal if a gay person communed. 
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« Reply #144 on: March 16, 2012, 06:06:11 PM »

I would expect a priest to withhold for someone living with their girlfriend. Especially if they admit to doing the horizontal hokie poke.
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« Reply #145 on: March 16, 2012, 06:59:15 PM »

I can't help but hear "common law" and not think of one of my old friends:

"CONSTITUTIONALISM": THE WHITE MAN'S GHOST DANCE - Bob Black

http://www.spunk.org/texts/writers/black/sp001650.html
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« Reply #146 on: March 16, 2012, 07:42:35 PM »

I can't help but hear "common law" and not think of one of my old friends:

"CONSTITUTIONALISM": THE WHITE MAN'S GHOST DANCE - Bob Black

http://www.spunk.org/texts/writers/black/sp001650.html
Those constitutionalists might be few in number, but five of them currently sit on the court. Wink
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« Reply #147 on: March 16, 2012, 09:10:04 PM »

Quote
At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion.
Nice that you assumed she was a lesbian. I would have thought she might have been a banker, or a lawyer or business owner.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 09:11:13 PM by augustin717 » Logged
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« Reply #148 on: March 16, 2012, 10:03:52 PM »

Quote
At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion.
Nice that you assumed she was a lesbian. I would have thought she might have been a banker, or a lawyer or business owner.

It was not very hard to figure out.. you were not there...
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« Reply #149 on: March 16, 2012, 10:18:28 PM »

Quote
At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion.
Nice that you assumed she was a lesbian. I would have thought she might have been a banker, or a lawyer or business owner.

It was not very hard to figure out.. you were not there...

In either event, simply being homosexual is not a sin. The sin would in homosexual activities, just as it would be in heterosexual activities such as fornication.

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« Reply #150 on: March 16, 2012, 10:19:30 PM »

Quote
At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion.
Nice that you assumed she was a lesbian. I would have thought she might have been a banker, or a lawyer or business owner.

It was not very hard to figure out.. you were not there...

Was she making out with a woman?  Do you normally spend your time during Liturgy contemplating the sexual activities of those around you?  I would make sure to mention that at your next confession.
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« Reply #151 on: March 16, 2012, 10:53:51 PM »

GIC and Sauran--Unless you can see some relevance to the subject of this thread, please cease and desist your mano a mano discussion or pursue it elsewhere. If you choose the latter course, I would be more than happy to split the topic and move it to elsewhere. Continuing your separate discussion before you get back to me will trigger the second option, along with a warning for both of you for going off topic. Thanks, Second Chance
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 10:54:34 PM by Second Chance » Logged

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« Reply #152 on: March 17, 2012, 12:29:35 PM »

Quote
At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion.
Nice that you assumed she was a lesbian. I would have thought she might have been a banker, or a lawyer or business owner.

It was not very hard to figure out.. you were not there...

Was she making out with a woman?  Do you normally spend your time during Liturgy contemplating the sexual activities of those around you?  I would make sure to mention that at your next confession.

I sat behind this person regularly for several years. I used to joke with her that I was worshiping the back of her head.

See to your own confession son. I'm doing fine.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 12:30:51 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #153 on: March 17, 2012, 03:38:18 PM »

Per GIC's request, the discussion on legal aspects has been split off and move to:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43652.0.html

Thanks, Second Chance
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« Reply #154 on: March 17, 2012, 04:01:58 PM »

See to your own confession son. I'm doing fine.

This strikes me as a very dangerous thing to believe.

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« Reply #155 on: March 17, 2012, 09:20:39 PM »

See to your own confession son. I'm doing fine.

This strikes me as a very dangerous thing to believe.



Wow..The chum is in the water...

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« Reply #156 on: March 17, 2012, 09:23:21 PM »

See to your own confession son. I'm doing fine.

This strikes me as a very dangerous thing to believe.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #157 on: March 17, 2012, 09:28:49 PM »

See to your own confession son. I'm doing fine.

This strikes me as a very dangerous thing to believe.



Wow..The chum is in the water...

And a chump is in the thread. Hey-o!

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« Reply #158 on: March 17, 2012, 09:38:23 PM »

See to your own confession son. I'm doing fine.

This strikes me as a very dangerous thing to believe.



Wow..The chum is in the water...

And a chump is in the thread. Hey-o!



Petulant much?
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« Reply #159 on: March 17, 2012, 10:49:14 PM »

Quote
At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion.
Nice that you assumed she was a lesbian. I would have thought she might have been a banker, or a lawyer or business owner.

It was not very hard to figure out.. you were not there...

Was she making out with a woman?  Do you normally spend your time during Liturgy contemplating the sexual activities of those around you?  I would make sure to mention that at your next confession.

I sat behind this person regularly for several years. I used to joke with her that I was worshiping the back of her head.

See to your own confession son. I'm doing fine.

So sitting behind a person informs you of their sexuality?  You should go and sit behind every Republican in Congress, that way we can out half of them.
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« Reply #160 on: March 22, 2012, 08:45:17 AM »

Suppose I look at internet pornography all the time.  As long as I go to confession every Saturday that means I receive communion.  Nobody would think twice about it.  But if a person is gay, it is the end of the world. 

Sorry, but about the second or third time that you confessed the same sin to the same priest, he's going to start withholding absolution and communion since you are treating them as some sort of joke.


Not necessarily.

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?"

It is certainly possible that someone can commit a sin and at the outset think, "No big deal, I'll confess and be in and out in five minutes". However, it is not the case that someone can master their own weaknesses after two or three stumbles. What a blessing it would be if that were the case!


There's a huge shift in forgiving a brother who has wronged you and showing a priest that you are not repenting of the sin you keep embracing.

The subject change was duly noted.
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« Reply #161 on: March 22, 2012, 08:52:18 AM »

Suppose I look at internet pornography all the time.  As long as I go to confession every Saturday that means I receive communion.  Nobody would think twice about it.  But if a person is gay, it is the end of the world. 

Sorry, but about the second or third time that you confessed the same sin to the same priest, he's going to start withholding absolution and communion since you are treating them as some sort of joke.


Not necessarily.

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?"

It is certainly possible that someone can commit a sin and at the outset think, "No big deal, I'll confess and be in and out in five minutes". However, it is not the case that someone can master their own weaknesses after two or three stumbles. What a blessing it would be if that were the case!


There's a huge shift in forgiving a brother who has wronged you and showing a priest that you are not repenting of the sin you keep embracing.

The subject change was duly noted.

There is a huge shift in embracing a sin and succumbing to temptation because of one's weakness. How blessed you are to have only sinned three times.

Your failure to appreciate this distinction was "duly noted".

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« Reply #162 on: March 22, 2012, 10:55:24 AM »

To me, saying, "Meh, I'll just confess later" and doing the sin is nowhere close to repentance. Thats taking advantage of a system. I think that God would not forgive you in that attitude.

Also, if the priest denies communion because of someone living in sin, that is his right.

PP
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« Reply #163 on: March 22, 2012, 11:00:25 AM »

Or one could just go to a jurisdiction where confession is sort of unheard of. One of the luxuries of being Orthodox in the US.
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« Reply #164 on: March 22, 2012, 11:03:00 AM »

Quote
At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion.
Nice that you assumed she was a lesbian. I would have thought she might have been a banker, or a lawyer or business owner.

It was not very hard to figure out.. you were not there...

Was she making out with a woman?  Do you normally spend your time during Liturgy contemplating the sexual activities of those around you?  I would make sure to mention that at your next confession.

I sat behind this person regularly for several years. I used to joke with her that I was worshiping the back of her head.

See to your own confession son. I'm doing fine.

So sitting behind a person informs you of their sexuality?  You should go and sit behind every Republican in Congress, that way we can out half of them.

 If you have regular and repeated contact with someone over the course of several years, even just as an acquaintance, you often get to know them.

You don't get out  much do you?
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« Reply #165 on: March 22, 2012, 11:33:41 AM »

Folks--We are getting off the subject yet again. I am going to call for a recess until next Monday in order for y'all to decide whether you wish to continue to veer off topic. Thanks, Second Chance
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« Reply #166 on: March 22, 2012, 01:22:49 PM »

To me, saying, "Meh, I'll just confess later" and doing the sin is nowhere close to repentance. Thats taking advantage of a system. I think that God would not forgive you in that attitude.

Also, if the priest denies communion because of someone living in sin, that is his right.

PP

So if you have ever said "Meh, I'll just confess later" you are forever unable to really be repentant for that action?  God will never, ever, forgive that sin?  Even if, later, you actually do come to repentance?  I also don't know why you seem to suggest that repentance has anything to do with what you are thinking BEFORE a sin; it has everything to do with what you are thinking AFTER one.
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« Reply #167 on: March 26, 2012, 08:46:21 AM »

Thread is unlocked. Please stay on topic. Second Chance
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« Reply #168 on: March 27, 2012, 10:19:38 AM »

Quote
So if you have ever said "Meh, I'll just confess later" you are forever unable to really be repentant for that action?
No, Im not saying that, but what I am saying is that it puts confession in the wrong attitude IMO. Being repentant is turning to Christ. Its out of conviction and penetence, and not because "your fun time" is up.

Saying "I'll just confess it later" is no different than saying, "Asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission".

PP
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« Reply #169 on: March 27, 2012, 01:41:04 PM »

Quote
So if you have ever said "Meh, I'll just confess later" you are forever unable to really be repentant for that action?
No, Im not saying that, but what I am saying is that it puts confession in the wrong attitude IMO. Being repentant is turning to Christ. Its out of conviction and penetence, and not because "your fun time" is up.

Saying "I'll just confess it later" is no different than saying, "Asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission".

PP

So, is this a proper way of understanding you: Using confession like an input-output table is to not really confess?
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« Reply #170 on: March 28, 2012, 02:05:15 PM »

So if you have ever said "Meh, I'll just confess later" you are forever unable to really be repentant for that action?  God will never, ever, forgive that sin?

I think you then have two sins to confess! Although I think the Church teachings indicate that you'd gone from the "involuntary sin" (during which you weren't really thinking about it) to a very "voluntary sin" where you said to yourself, "I don't care what Christ has taught us through the Church, I wanna do it!"
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« Reply #171 on: March 28, 2012, 03:27:50 PM »

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So if you have ever said "Meh, I'll just confess later" you are forever unable to really be repentant for that action?
No, Im not saying that, but what I am saying is that it puts confession in the wrong attitude IMO. Being repentant is turning to Christ. Its out of conviction and penetence, and not because "your fun time" is up.

Saying "I'll just confess it later" is no different than saying, "Asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission".

PP

So, is this a proper way of understanding you: Using confession like an input-output table is to not really confess?
No, but using confession in that manner, to give you a license to do whatever you want as long as you confess is not wise.

"I cant steal that, as long as I confess im fine!" is really foolish, and I think, you're taking advantage of Gods forgiveness. Another example: If you knew your wife would forgive you completely, and all you had to do is ask her forgiveness, would you cheat on her to satisfy your lusts?

PP
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« Reply #172 on: March 28, 2012, 05:56:35 PM »

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No, but using confession in that manner, to give you a license to do whatever you want as long as you confess is not wise.

"I cant steal that, as long as I confess im fine!" is really foolish, and I think, you're taking advantage of Gods forgiveness. Another example: If you knew your wife would forgive you completely, and all you had to do is ask her forgiveness, would you cheat on her to satisfy your lusts?

Indeed. The icon of the Mother of God Unexpected Joy has something to say about this very thing.
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« Reply #173 on: March 28, 2012, 09:47:30 PM »

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So if you have ever said "Meh, I'll just confess later" you are forever unable to really be repentant for that action?
No, Im not saying that, but what I am saying is that it puts confession in the wrong attitude IMO. Being repentant is turning to Christ. Its out of conviction and penetence, and not because "your fun time" is up.

Saying "I'll just confess it later" is no different than saying, "Asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission".

PP

So, is this a proper way of understanding you: Using confession like an input-output table is to not really confess?
No, but using confession in that manner, to give you a license to do whatever you want as long as you confess is not wise.

"I cant steal that, as long as I confess im fine!" is really foolish, and I think, you're taking advantage of Gods forgiveness. Another example: If you knew your wife would forgive you completely, and all you had to do is ask her forgiveness, would you cheat on her to satisfy your lusts?

PP
i know the RCCs have a term for this, it is called presumption, which is another sin that needs confessing in the rcc at least
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« Reply #174 on: March 29, 2012, 11:03:48 AM »

I believe that if someone commits sin simply because they know they can confess it later and "be ok" is not serious about their sin. Its almost like using confession as a get out of jail free card.

PP
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« Reply #175 on: March 30, 2012, 08:32:15 AM »

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So if you have ever said "Meh, I'll just confess later" you are forever unable to really be repentant for that action?
No, Im not saying that, but what I am saying is that it puts confession in the wrong attitude IMO. Being repentant is turning to Christ. Its out of conviction and penetence, and not because "your fun time" is up.

Saying "I'll just confess it later" is no different than saying, "Asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission".

PP

So, is this a proper way of understanding you: Using confession like an input-output table is to not really confess?
No, but using confession in that manner, to give you a license to do whatever you want as long as you confess is not wise.

"I cant steal that, as long as I confess im fine!" is really foolish, and I think, you're taking advantage of Gods forgiveness. Another example: If you knew your wife would forgive you completely, and all you had to do is ask her forgiveness, would you cheat on her to satisfy your lusts?

PP


A husband returns from a business trip:

Scenario 1 - “Honey we need to talk. I know I shouldn’t have but I went out and ended up getting drunk with the guys. There was a woman there. She tempted me. I wasn’t thinking. I sinned against you and God. Please forgive me. That is not who I am or who I want to be.”

Scenario 2 – “Honey we need to talk. I knew I shouldn’t but I went out and got drunk with the guys anyway. There was a woman there. She tempted me. I thought about it and knowing you would forgive me I cheated on you. So forgive me. This is just who I am and obviously who I want to be.”
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« Reply #176 on: March 30, 2012, 10:50:03 AM »

Quote
So if you have ever said "Meh, I'll just confess later" you are forever unable to really be repentant for that action?
No, Im not saying that, but what I am saying is that it puts confession in the wrong attitude IMO. Being repentant is turning to Christ. Its out of conviction and penetence, and not because "your fun time" is up.

Saying "I'll just confess it later" is no different than saying, "Asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission".

PP

So, is this a proper way of understanding you: Using confession like an input-output table is to not really confess?
No, but using confession in that manner, to give you a license to do whatever you want as long as you confess is not wise.

"I cant steal that, as long as I confess im fine!" is really foolish, and I think, you're taking advantage of Gods forgiveness. Another example: If you knew your wife would forgive you completely, and all you had to do is ask her forgiveness, would you cheat on her to satisfy your lusts?

PP


A husband returns from a business trip:

Scenario 1 - “Honey we need to talk. I know I shouldn’t have but I went out and ended up getting drunk with the guys. There was a woman there. She tempted me. I wasn’t thinking. I sinned against you and God. Please forgive me. That is not who I am or who I want to be.”

Scenario 2 – “Honey we need to talk. I knew I shouldn’t but I went out and got drunk with the guys anyway. There was a woman there. She tempted me. I thought about it and knowing you would forgive me I cheated on you. So forgive me. This is just who I am and obviously who I want to be.”

nice example.

PP
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
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