Author Topic: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended  (Read 7173 times)

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Offline witega

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #90 on: March 14, 2012, 03:27:45 PM »
Why does legitimacy matter?  Are we back in the middle ages?
What is wrong with the Middle Ages? Aren't moral values supposed to pass on unchanged from one generation to the next? Take for example the sin of idolatry or worship of strange gods. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

I don't see Nektarios talking about 'morality' per se. He's asking about the question of legitimacy as applied to the children--who aren't guilty of anything whether the parents were married or not. He's asking why we should care whether or not children are legitimate (as opposed to the Middle Ages where there were definite legal as well as social issues around being a 'bastard'). I'm not sure if I agree with him, but the question itself is totally separate from the morality of the parents.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #91 on: March 14, 2012, 04:12:30 PM »
So it is no longer a sin to have sex outside of marriage?  If a marriage is annulled and they were never married, then the children were conceived by having sex outside of marriage correct?
No and no.  A marriage is not annulled.  A declaration of nullity states that a sacramental marriage never took place due to a defect in form or consent.  The Church recognizes that a civil marraige took place. 
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #92 on: March 14, 2012, 04:26:39 PM »
So it is no longer a sin to have sex outside of marriage?  If a marriage is annulled and they were never married, then the children were conceived by having sex outside of marriage correct?
No and no.  A marriage is not annulled.  A declaration of nullity states that a sacramental marriage never took place due to a defect in form or consent.  The Church recognizes that a civil marraige took place. 

How does the Orthodox Church view a civil marriage?

If you were never married within any Christian church and completely without religious conviction and the marriage had no more pomp during the contract than signing a mortgage. And the contract was then dissolved, were you considered "married" within the Orthodox Church?
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #93 on: March 14, 2012, 04:38:06 PM »
Why does legitimacy matter?  Are we back in the middle ages?
What is wrong with the Middle Ages? Aren't moral values supposed to pass on unchanged from one generation to the next? Take for example the sin of idolatry or worship of strange gods. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

I don't see Nektarios talking about 'morality' per se. He's asking about the question of legitimacy as applied to the children--who aren't guilty of anything whether the parents were married or not. He's asking why we should care whether or not children are legitimate (as opposed to the Middle Ages where there were definite legal as well as social issues around being a 'bastard'). I'm not sure if I agree with him, but the question itself is totally separate from the morality of the parents.

Exactly.  Illegitimacy is a legal concept that was primarily used in the middle ages.  It was important because it had the potential to exclude inheritance rights.  So getting back to my question, why on earth does it matter if a person is "legitimate" or "illegitimate"? 

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #94 on: March 14, 2012, 05:06:22 PM »
Oh. So children of a putative marriage are legitimate, even if the assumption that there was ever a marriage was a false one? There have been cases where a couple have never been married, but it is assumed by their friends and aquaintances that they were married. So even though they have never been legally married, according to you, their children are legitimate, because it is a putative marriage?
This seems contrary to the common definition of illegitimacy.

You are mixing issues.  The concept of putative marriage is different from common law marriage or simply lying and saying one is married when one isn't.  A putative marriage is one that is reputed to be valid and is believed to be so by at least one of the spouses because they entered it in good faith. So the answer to your first question is yes.  The answer to your second question is no, because in that example there never was a marriage sacramental or civil.
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #95 on: March 14, 2012, 05:16:25 PM »
Why does legitimacy matter?  Are we back in the middle ages?
What is wrong with the Middle Ages? Aren't moral values supposed to pass on unchanged from one generation to the next? Take for example the sin of idolatry or worship of strange gods. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

I don't see Nektarios talking about 'morality' per se. He's asking about the question of legitimacy as applied to the children--who aren't guilty of anything whether the parents were married or not. He's asking why we should care whether or not children are legitimate (as opposed to the Middle Ages where there were definite legal as well as social issues around being a 'bastard'). I'm not sure if I agree with him, but the question itself is totally separate from the morality of the parents.

Exactly.  Illegitimacy is a legal concept that was primarily used in the middle ages.  It was important because it had the potential to exclude inheritance rights.  So getting back to my question, why on earth does it matter if a person is "legitimate" or "illegitimate"? 

Yes, the transition from ancient inheritance laws to modern contract law has rendered the issue of legitimacy irrelevant. But with that, it has also rendered the institution of marriage obsolete...they're both equally absurd in a modern context. So if we're going to argue about something as outdated as marriage, why not throw in discussions about ancient inheritance laws, the legitimacy of children, spiritual degrees of separation, etc.? You know, things that were relevant back when marriage was actually relevant.

In some sense, I see where you are coming from.  But marriage is a contract between two willing parties and has evolved into a modernity. 

Offline stanley123

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #96 on: March 14, 2012, 05:19:53 PM »
So it is no longer a sin to have sex outside of marriage?  If a marriage is annulled and they were never married, then the children were conceived by having sex outside of marriage correct?
 A declaration of nullity states that a sacramental marriage never took place due to a defect in form or consent.
And the couple are allowed a second marriage? What percentage of these marriage annulments are declared invalid and erroneous when appealed to Rome. Isn't it way over 90%?
Isn't this whole marriage annulment process a subterfuge according to which the RCC allows divorce and remarriage? Simply consider the statistics of about 10 marriage annulments allowed in the USA in 1930, but more than 60,000 marriage annulments (annually) in the USA in recent years.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 05:26:38 PM by stanley123 »

Offline stanley123

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #97 on: March 14, 2012, 05:22:16 PM »
So getting back to my question, why on earth does it matter if a person is "legitimate" or "illegitimate"?  
Why does it matter if a couple (straight or gay) is married legally, putatively, or just not married at all?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 05:23:22 PM by stanley123 »

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #98 on: March 14, 2012, 06:37:20 PM »
GiC, I think that analysis is uncharacteristically faulty.

If marriage is a contract, (1) why are the "terms" of the contract prescribed; and (2) why can the contract not be amended or undone by a subsequent contract? Closely related to (2), why, in so many common law jurisdictions, are pre-nuptial agreements of no force?

If only marriage really were contractual! Perhaps then our courts would properly enforce the terms of such a noble agreement.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #99 on: March 14, 2012, 09:21:26 PM »
So it is no longer a sin to have sex outside of marriage?  If a marriage is annulled and they were never married, then the children were conceived by having sex outside of marriage correct?
 A declaration of nullity states that a sacramental marriage never took place due to a defect in form or consent.
And the couple are allowed a second marriage? What percentage of these marriage annulments are declared invalid and erroneous when appealed to Rome. Isn't it way over 90%?
Isn't this whole marriage annulment process a subterfuge according to which the RCC allows divorce and remarriage? Simply consider the statistics of about 10 marriage annulments allowed in the USA in 1930, but more than 60,000 marriage annulments (annually) in the USA in recent years.

They are allowed their first sacramental marriage.  The Rota overturns 90% of cases from the US that make it there, how many make it there I don't know.  A subterfuge?  In some cases I suppose, in others I don't think so.  Given the poor catechesis I see going on I am not shocked that there is a lot of defective consent cases.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Priest who allegedly denied Communion to lesbian placed on leave
« Reply #100 on: March 14, 2012, 11:32:01 PM »
Link:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/12/priest-who-allegedly-denied-communion-to-lesbian-placed-on-leave/?hpt=us_c2

Any comments?
His suspension apparently had nothing to do with the Communion fiasco.

The Parish in question is just up the road from my home. They claim he was not getting along with the staff and suspended him for that..........a week  or so after the incident.  Suspicious.

They couldnt suspend him for the refusal or what he said because he was simply following Catholic doctrine.

Apparently he spent most of the career in Russia. Maybe he grew a backbone there.
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Offline stanley123

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Re: Priest who allegedly denied Communion to lesbian placed on leave
« Reply #101 on: March 14, 2012, 11:49:34 PM »
...His suspension apparently had nothing to do with the Communion fiasco.
...  Suspicious.
Very much so.

Offline Brigidsboy

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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #103 on: March 15, 2012, 01:28:05 AM »
And she did receive Communion anyway.  This whole thing stinks of a setup.
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Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #104 on: March 15, 2012, 01:29:24 AM »
I totally agree.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #105 on: March 15, 2012, 01:59:10 AM »
And she did receive Communion anyway.  This whole thing stinks of a setup.

Indeed.  And that is, I believe, a problem for both the Orthodox and the Catholics.  It is this spirit that religion is to serve the individual and bend to every twist and turn of political and social ideals, this spirit that infects all of modern society, that is of Satan and seeks to destroy all religion.  It is a curse, a cancer, invading all religious groups that still actually profess belief in anything besides tolerance.  It is this evil that we, all of us, of necessity must fight against in all its forms.
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Offline Spartan563

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #106 on: March 15, 2012, 02:08:34 AM »
Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #107 on: March 15, 2012, 02:17:40 AM »
Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #108 on: March 15, 2012, 02:25:14 AM »
Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

And yet He said: Go and sin no more.  He defended all from condemnation, true.  However, He never said sin is OK.  He also, notably, had the Last Supper in a place with only His disciples.  He taught in the fields and on the hills and at the Temple and in the cities; He gave His all-pure Body and His most precious Blood only to those who believed in Him (I would note, here, that some teach that Judas only betrayed the Lord believing that He would never actually be killed, but would instead usher in the Kingdom of God, on earth).  In the early Church, those who were not members of the Body of Christ - of the Church that Christ founded - could not even SEE the Eucharist, let alone take part of it.  

There is a reason that the Eucharist is known as Holy Communion: it is by the Body and Blood of Christ that we become one communion, one body, one with the Church, and God, and our fellow Christians.  For someone to partake of Holy Communion when they are out of communion with her - when they have separated themselves from her - is not only to be a hypocrite, to profess publicly to be that which you are anything but, it is also to bring upon yourself the condemnation of the God Who will one day soon judge the whole of the human race, who professed a narrow gate and a wide gate, the wide leading unto death and damnation, the narrow to life everlasting, it is to become as a virus that infests a human body, and is rejected by that body, destroyed by that body, such is the fate of those who partake of Holy Communion when they are not in communion.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #109 on: March 15, 2012, 02:49:48 AM »
Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No way, no how. Jesus is the CHRIST, not some PC hippie proto-Marxist. We need to give up a lot in order to follow Him. It's tough going, but absolutely necessary.

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple" ≠ accepting everyone unconditionally.


Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #110 on: March 15, 2012, 02:53:22 AM »
So getting back to my question, why on earth does it matter if a person is "legitimate" or "illegitimate"?  
Why does it matter if a couple (straight or gay) is married legally, putatively, or just not married at all?

Ultimately it is for themselves that a couple decides to marry.  It is a sort of official seal that carries real meaning.  There are many legal consequences due to marriage.  Legally (at least in the West), I don't think illegitimacy has any role.  For instance, if I had an illegitimate child, I would still have to pay child support.  


Offline stanley123

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #111 on: March 15, 2012, 05:43:15 AM »
So it is no longer a sin to have sex outside of marriage?  If a marriage is annulled and they were never married, then the children were conceived by having sex outside of marriage correct?
 A declaration of nullity states that a sacramental marriage never took place due to a defect in form or consent.
And the couple are allowed a second marriage? What percentage of these marriage annulments are declared invalid and erroneous when appealed to Rome. Isn't it way over 90%?
Isn't this whole marriage annulment process a subterfuge according to which the RCC allows divorce and remarriage? Simply consider the statistics of about 10 marriage annulments allowed in the USA in 1930, but more than 60,000 marriage annulments (annually) in the USA in recent years.

They are allowed their first sacramental marriage.  The Rota overturns 90% of cases from the US that make it there, how many make it there I don't know.  A subterfuge?  In some cases I suppose, in others I don't think so.  Given the poor catechesis I see going on I am not shocked that there is a lot of defective consent cases.
The post Vatican II policy of handing out easy to get marriage annulments can only have long term negative effects in children. Children are told that their parents were never married Sacramentally, and so they have to come to terms with that ugly fact.   Since the Church tribunal requires the parents to divorce,  we should note all of the pain and mental anxiety that children experience as a result of the civil divorce required by the Church before it will grant the annulment. General anxiety, stress,  inability to sleep, seeing the world as a dangerous place,  and lower academic achievement have all been seen in children of divorced parents.  I don;t think any other Church has experienced the horrific explosion in divorce rates as has the Catholic Church in the period from 1930 to the present date. Going from 10 annulments per year to more than 60,000 annulments per year is an increase of more than 600,000 percent. And keep in mind that to get the annulment, you have to get the civil divorce before the Church will consider your application. The civil divorce is a requirement.

Offline stanley123

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #112 on: March 15, 2012, 05:45:53 AM »
So getting back to my question, why on earth does it matter if a person is "legitimate" or "illegitimate"?  
Why does it matter if a couple (straight or gay) is married legally, putatively, or just not married at all?

Ultimately it is for themselves that a couple decides to marry.  It is a sort of official seal that carries real meaning.  There are many legal consequences due to marriage.  Legally (at least in the West), I don't think illegitimacy has any role.  For instance, if I had an illegitimate child, I would still have to pay child support.  


There is a point here that it is not the fault of the child as to how he was brought into the world. That is true. However, when a Church tells him that his parents were never Sacramentally married, then that can have a long term negative impact on the psychology and mental health of the child.

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #113 on: March 15, 2012, 06:07:50 AM »
So getting back to my question, why on earth does it matter if a person is "legitimate" or "illegitimate"?  
Why does it matter if a couple (straight or gay) is married legally, putatively, or just not married at all?

Ultimately it is for themselves that a couple decides to marry.  It is a sort of official seal that carries real meaning.  There are many legal consequences due to marriage.  Legally (at least in the West), I don't think illegitimacy has any role.  For instance, if I had an illegitimate child, I would still have to pay child support.  


There is a point here that it is not the fault of the child as to how he was brought into the world. That is true. However, when a Church tells him that his parents were never Sacramentally married, then that can have a long term negative impact on the psychology and mental health of the child.

I don't disagree that the standard practice of at least the American Catholic Church of handing out annulments for nearly every divorce is a giant abuse and ultimately negative.  But I still don't see how "illegitimacy" has any bearing in modern society. 

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #114 on: March 15, 2012, 10:18:19 AM »
And she did receive Communion anyway.  This whole thing stinks of a setup.

Hmmm. I dont want to sound paranoid, but we are about to vote on a Gay Marriage referendum here in Maryland in November.
Today's paper showed the woman in question with Gov. O'mallie smiling and shaking hands.

suspicious
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #115 on: March 15, 2012, 01:30:48 PM »
We are pastoral, not legalistic.  ;)

I've been taught that the Priest is also "The Defender of the Eucharist" and it falls upon him to decide who shall receive and who shall not.

Concerning the priest who specifically taught me that, I'd only seen him refuse someone Communion twice and both times he spoke them to very quietly and what was clearly an apologetic manner.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #116 on: March 15, 2012, 01:56:58 PM »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #117 on: March 15, 2012, 01:57:38 PM »
Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No way, no how. Jesus is the CHRIST, not some PC hippie proto-Marxist. We need to give up a lot in order to follow Him. It's tough going, but absolutely necessary.

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple" ≠ accepting everyone unconditionally.



Sure it does.

Am I am on an Orthodox website?

EDIT: Forget it. Yes, I am. We have people worried about a trivial amount of "holy oil" finding its way to the trash thus the earth and others teaching that Jesus' "acceptance" is conditional.

 
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 01:59:35 PM by orthonorm »
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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #118 on: March 15, 2012, 02:06:00 PM »
Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No way, no how. Jesus is the CHRIST, not some PC hippie proto-Marxist. We need to give up a lot in order to follow Him. It's tough going, but absolutely necessary.

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple" ≠ accepting everyone unconditionally.



Sure it does.

Am I am on an Orthodox website?

EDIT: Forget it. Yes, I am. We have people worried about a trivial amount of "holy oil" finding its way to the trash thus the earth and others teaching that Jesus' "acceptance" is conditional.

 

The point is not to trivialize the Faith.  First, let's not take holy water or holy oil "too" seriously.  It's just Holy Oil....go ahead and throw it in the trash, God will still love you.  Next, folks will be throwing icons in the trash because they don't match their decor.

There is the concept of economia, but, that is dependant on the situation.   It's not a blanket law that allows for all manner of disrespect.

Yes, Christ loves everyone equally, and yes, He wishes for the salvation of every soul.....however, if I recall correctly, not everyone will be saved. 

In other words, they will not be accepted.


Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline Sauron

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #119 on: March 15, 2012, 02:16:13 PM »
With all due respect, the RC gives annulments and pretends there was no marriage, even when there are children involved and it makes those children illegitimate.  At least the Orthodox are honest enough to admit that there was a marriage and not that anyone at the wedding must have dreamed it.

It does no such thing.  A declaration of nullity is the judgement that states because of a defect in form or intent a valid sacramental marriage did not take place.  It is not saying a legal or natural marriage did not take place.  A declaration of nullity does not make children illegitimate.  

In the Latin rite, the husband and wife are the ministers of the sacrament. But in the Byzantine rite, the priest administers the sacrament. If a couple is married in a Byzantine Catholic wedding, how is there a defect in intent to perform the sacrament? I am pretty sure the priest really meant to marry those people.


Offline orthonorm

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #120 on: March 15, 2012, 03:01:56 PM »
Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No way, no how. Jesus is the CHRIST, not some PC hippie proto-Marxist. We need to give up a lot in order to follow Him. It's tough going, but absolutely necessary.

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple" ≠ accepting everyone unconditionally.



Sure it does.

Am I am on an Orthodox website?

EDIT: Forget it. Yes, I am. We have people worried about a trivial amount of "holy oil" finding its way to the trash thus the earth and others teaching that Jesus' "acceptance" is conditional.

 

The point is not to trivialize the Faith.  First, let's not take holy water or holy oil "too" seriously.  It's just Holy Oil....go ahead and throw it in the trash, God will still love you.  Next, folks will be throwing icons in the trash because they don't match their decor.

There is the concept of economia, but, that is dependant on the situation.   It's not a blanket law that allows for all manner of disrespect.

Yes, Christ loves everyone equally, and yes, He wishes for the salvation of every soul.....however, if I recall correctly, not everyone will be saved. 

In other words, they will not be accepted.




Your other words are wrong.

It is the very acceptance of Christ, it's nature and quality, which those will find to be damning. Not the lack of Christ's acceptance.


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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #121 on: March 15, 2012, 03:26:12 PM »

It is the very acceptance of Christ, it's nature and quality, which those will find to be damning. Not the lack of Christ's acceptance.


You need to keep in mind the context in which these things are invoked. The poster to whom I replied had asserted that the active Lesbian Buddhist receiving the Eucharist was a good thing because "Christ accepted everyone", not that the "nature and quality" of Christ's acceptance of this woman or any other sinner will be found damning. They're not the same point at all. You are right above, but the other poster is still wrong.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #122 on: March 15, 2012, 03:59:14 PM »
Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No way, no how. Jesus is the CHRIST, not some PC hippie proto-Marxist. We need to give up a lot in order to follow Him. It's tough going, but absolutely necessary.

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple" ≠ accepting everyone unconditionally.



Sure it does.

Am I am on an Orthodox website?

EDIT: Forget it. Yes, I am. We have people worried about a trivial amount of "holy oil" finding its way to the trash thus the earth and others teaching that Jesus' "acceptance" is conditional.

 

The point is not to trivialize the Faith.  First, let's not take holy water or holy oil "too" seriously.  It's just Holy Oil....go ahead and throw it in the trash, God will still love you.  Next, folks will be throwing icons in the trash because they don't match their decor.

There is the concept of economia, but, that is dependant on the situation.   It's not a blanket law that allows for all manner of disrespect.

Yes, Christ loves everyone equally, and yes, He wishes for the salvation of every soul.....however, if I recall correctly, not everyone will be saved. 

In other words, they will not be accepted.




Your other words are wrong.

It is the very acceptance of Christ, it's nature and quality, which those will find to be damning. Not the lack of Christ's acceptance.




Ok....I guess it's all in the wording....and I apologize for wording it wrong.

My point was that there are conditions set to ensure the "happily ever after" ending....it's not guaranteed.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #123 on: March 15, 2012, 04:19:40 PM »
Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No way, no how. Jesus is the CHRIST, not some PC hippie proto-Marxist. We need to give up a lot in order to follow Him. It's tough going, but absolutely necessary.

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple" ≠ accepting everyone unconditionally.



Sure it does.

Am I am on an Orthodox website?

EDIT: Forget it. Yes, I am. We have people worried about a trivial amount of "holy oil" finding its way to the trash thus the earth and others teaching that Jesus' "acceptance" is conditional.

 

The point is not to trivialize the Faith.  First, let's not take holy water or holy oil "too" seriously.  It's just Holy Oil....go ahead and throw it in the trash, God will still love you.  Next, folks will be throwing icons in the trash because they don't match their decor.

There is the concept of economia, but, that is dependant on the situation.   It's not a blanket law that allows for all manner of disrespect.

Yes, Christ loves everyone equally, and yes, He wishes for the salvation of every soul.....however, if I recall correctly, not everyone will be saved. 

In other words, they will not be accepted.




Your other words are wrong.

It is the very acceptance of Christ, it's nature and quality, which those will find to be damning. Not the lack of Christ's acceptance.




Ok....I guess it's all in the wording....and I apologize for wording it wrong.

My point was that there are conditions set to ensure the "happily ever after" ending....it's not guaranteed.



What are those "conditions" to ensure salvation? Or did you mean there are "not" conditions. I drop words constantly myself.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #124 on: March 15, 2012, 04:38:26 PM »
No, I didn't drop any words in this case.

I am not of the Protestant mindset that "if you accept the Lord as your Savior, you are automatically saved!"

If you truly accept the Lord, than you do as He has instructed....I do believe we were given some instructions....I think it all began with those Commandments.

Therefore, I have a feeling that if one builds himself a golden calf, steals his neighbors wife, kills folks, etc....they have not met the conditions.

Plus, there's always the "love thy neighbor" rule to live by, as well.

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." (Acts 16:30-31) ...kind of sounds to me like a condition, of sorts.

This was what I labeled as "conditions"....you may have a different term/word for this.

Hey, it's all good.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 04:41:38 PM by LizaSymonenko »
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #125 on: March 15, 2012, 05:44:48 PM »
No, I didn't drop any words in this case.

I am not of the Protestant mindset that "if you accept the Lord as your Savior, you are automatically saved!"

If you truly accept the Lord, than you do as He has instructed....I do believe we were given some instructions....I think it all began with those Commandments.

Therefore, I have a feeling that if one builds himself a golden calf, steals his neighbors wife, kills folks, etc....they have not met the conditions.

Plus, there's always the "love thy neighbor" rule to live by, as well.

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." (Acts 16:30-31) ...kind of sounds to me like a condition, of sorts.

This was what I labeled as "conditions"....you may have a different term/word for this.

Hey, it's all good.

Wow, starting to sound like the Epistle of James with all this "faith without works is dead" stuff!   ;)
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #126 on: March 15, 2012, 06:47:43 PM »
We are pastoral, not legalistic.  ;)

I've been taught that the Priest is also "The Defender of the Eucharist" and it falls upon him to decide who shall receive and who shall not.

Concerning the priest who specifically taught me that, I'd only seen him refuse someone Communion twice and both times he spoke them to very quietly and what was clearly an apologetic manner.

I've seen people refused communion a good 6 or 7 times. Almost always for not having a recent enough confession. No biggie.

At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion. I am proud of her. She got it right. She was a valued part of the community but until that part of her life comes into concert with the teachings of the Church she belongs to, she refrains from approaching the chalice.

We all have sh.. to work out. God Bless her and God Bless the Church for holding us all to a greater image of what we can be. No one said it would be easy. If you want easy there are other choices out there.
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #127 on: March 15, 2012, 06:53:48 PM »
We are pastoral, not legalistic.  ;)

I've been taught that the Priest is also "The Defender of the Eucharist" and it falls upon him to decide who shall receive and who shall not.

Concerning the priest who specifically taught me that, I'd only seen him refuse someone Communion twice and both times he spoke them to very quietly and what was clearly an apologetic manner.

I've seen people refused communion a good 6 or 7 times. Almost always for not having a recent enough confession. No biggie.

At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion. I am proud of her. She got it right. She was a valued part of the community but until that part of her life comes into concert with the teachings of the Church she belongs to, she refrains from approaching the chalice.

We all have sh.. to work out. God Bless her and God Bless the Church for holding us all to a greater image of what we can be. No one said it would be easy. If you want easy there are other choices out there.

We all have issues to sort out, but for people who are not gay they can receive communion.  Suppose I look at internet pornography all the time.  As long as I go to confession every Saturday that means I receive communion.  Nobody would think twice about it.  But if a person is gay, it is the end of the world. 

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #128 on: March 15, 2012, 06:57:33 PM »
How is it the end of the world? They have to live celibate as any non-married person would have to.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #129 on: March 15, 2012, 07:39:57 PM »
Here is the full story of the priest who was removed from ministry in the Washington diocese for refusing communion to woman engaged in a lesbian relationship.  The game was up before he began the mass.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/priest-removal-from-ministry-was-tied-to-communion-incident/

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #130 on: March 15, 2012, 09:35:29 PM »
Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No.

Our Lord accepted people as he found them. He did not leave them that way.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #131 on: March 15, 2012, 09:37:02 PM »
He didn't accept that rich guy ::)

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #132 on: March 15, 2012, 10:31:52 PM »
Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No.

Our Lord accepted people as he found them. He did not leave them that way.

See...this is not correct, either.  He did not accept how He found them....He worked to make them better than they were when He found them.

If He accepted them the way they already were....then why did He preach and teach....give examples and parables

....so that they would learn HOW they were supposed to live. 

No?

For sure, He did not condemn anyone....but, He did not accept them just the way they were.....He made them better.


Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #133 on: March 15, 2012, 10:36:46 PM »
Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No.

Our Lord accepted people as he found them. He did not leave them that way.

See...this is not correct, either.  He did not accept how He found them....He worked to make them better than they were when He found them.

If He accepted them the way they already were....then why did He preach and teach....give examples and parables

....so that they would learn HOW they were supposed to live. 

No?

For sure, He did not condemn anyone....but, He did not accept them just the way they were.....He made them better.




i think there are two different meaning of the word accept going on here

the one Brigidsboy is using means that he takes everyone the way that they are, but strives to make them better, just like the Church accepts all sinner, but is still a hopstial for sinners, and helps to make them into the beings that God intends us to be

in contrast to what you are saying Liza, which accept means just that, that they are perfect and that you needs to be perfect in order for Him to accept them in the way you are meaning it

a small difference, to be sure, but important

(i could just be talking to hear myself talk too, so this might make no sense)

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Re: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended
« Reply #134 on: March 15, 2012, 10:55:49 PM »

You keep talking....and I'll keep listening!  ;)
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria