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Author Topic: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended  (Read 6382 times) Average Rating: 0
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Monk Vasyl
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« on: March 12, 2012, 04:22:19 PM »


Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended

By msnbc.com

A Maryland priest who denied communion to a lesbian at her mother's funeral has been placed on leave, according to the Roman Catholic archdiocese.

A letter from an archdiocese official said that the Rev. Marcel Guarnizo was placed on leave for engaging in intimidating behavior, according to NBCWashington.com. The archdiocese had previously apologized for Guarnizo’s behavior.


For the rest of the article:  http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/12/10652416-priest-who-denied-communion-to-lesbian-suspended


The only part I disagree with that priest is when he excused himself from the burial at the cemetery.
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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2012, 04:29:21 PM »

The commentary in the video was quite offensively undergraduate.
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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2012, 04:30:05 PM »

Link:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/12/priest-who-allegedly-denied-communion-to-lesbian-placed-on-leave/?hpt=us_c2

Any comments?
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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2012, 04:40:59 PM »

His suspension apparently had nothing to do with the Communion fiasco.
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2012, 04:43:15 PM »

The priest should have gone to the funeral at the cemetery.  As for not giving communion to the woman, he was doing his job and if that is the reason they dumped him (despite the talking head saying that it was for "actions throughout the week") then it's a sign of a deeper rot in that archdiocese.

This part I found especially disturbing:

Quote
“When questions arise about whether or not an individual should present themselves for communion, it is not the policy of the Archdiocese of Washington to publicly reprimand the person,” the statement said. “Any issues regarding the suitability of an individual to receive communion should be addressed by the priest with that person in a private, pastoral setting.”

If someone is going to go up for communion, knowing that they cannot take it, when is the priest supposed to tell them no to take communion?  I sounded from what the priest said that he did everything correctly.  It is his duty to tell someone who is not prepared that they cannot commune.  To commune them is such a situation could risk damnation for both parties.
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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2012, 04:47:34 PM »

There is a difference between Catholic and Orthodox approach to this.  A Catholic priest cannot deny someone Communion unless the person is obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and that person has been admonished by the priest privately first.  So while a declared practicing lesbian should know better than to present themselves for Communion, from the Catholic perspective, unless the priest knew this as a fact from her own lips beforehand, not secondhand, he had no right to deny her.
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2012, 05:01:59 PM »

There is a difference between Catholic and Orthodox approach to this.  A Catholic priest cannot deny someone Communion unless the person is obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and that person has been admonished by the priest privately first.  So while a declared practicing lesbian should know better than to present themselves for Communion, from the Catholic perspective, unless the priest knew this as a fact from her own lips beforehand, not secondhand, he had no right to deny her.

Cardinal George Pell would disagree. More than once, he has refused to give communion to declared and unrepentant homosexuals, whether he has "admonished them privately" or not. And he's not the only one. All power to him and those like him, I say.
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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2012, 05:02:46 PM »

We don't know the details....but, lets just say that he "knew" that the deceased woman's daughter was a lesbian....and here she is before him, with her partner....and approaches for communion.  Is he just supposed to give it to her?

This is just another reason to have people go to Holy Confession before going to Holy Communion.  It would have given the priest a chance to "council her in private".

This way the priest also knows who is who, and who is approaching the Holy Gifts.  

My parish tradition is we Confess prior to going to Holy Communion.  This way when our priest notices an "unknown" face approaching, he quietly speaks to them, lifts the chalice for them to kiss, and has them move on.  Nobody except the person immediately behind them realizes the person didn't receive the Holy Gifts.

I went to an RC funeral last year (coworkers family member)....and for their Communion most of my coworkers went up too.  I know some are Catholic...but, then there was this one Baptist man...who happily went up and with a smirk on his face coming back up the aisle munching on the wafer...with a huge grin.  "Good cookie".

I know that priest didn't know who these people were.  But, he did in fact, give the Holy Gifts to a "non-believer".  This man thought it was all a joke.  While not RC, it still hurt me to see it happen.

So, I believe the priest has every right to withhold Communion.  It's his responsibility to safeguard the Gifts.

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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2012, 05:12:19 PM »

There is a difference between Catholic and Orthodox approach to this.  A Catholic priest cannot deny someone Communion unless the person is obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and that person has been admonished by the priest privately first.  So while a declared practicing lesbian should know better than to present themselves for Communion, from the Catholic perspective, unless the priest knew this as a fact from her own lips beforehand, not secondhand, he had no right to deny her.

Cardinal George Pell would disagree. More than once, he has refused to give communion to declared and unrepentant homosexuals, whether he has "admonished them privately" or not. And he's not the only one. All power to him and those like him, I say.

But a bishop can make that call a priest cannot, he must follow protocol.
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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2012, 05:23:12 PM »

We don't know the details....but, lets just say that he "knew" that the deceased woman's daughter was a lesbian....and here she is before him, with her partner....and approaches for communion.  Is he just supposed to give it to her?
If he has not spoken to her privately beforehand, Yes.

  
My parish tradition is we Confess prior to going to Holy Communion.  This way when our priest notices an "unknown" face approaching, he quietly speaks to them, lifts the chalice for them to kiss, and has them move on.  Nobody except the person immediately behind them realizes the person didn't receive the Holy Gifts.
But this is a difference between Catholic and Orthodox practice.  The Catholic Church presumes worthiness unless proven otherwise, the communicant being the one held responsible, the Orthodox Church presumes unworthiness unless proven otherwise the priest being the one held responsible.

I went to an RC funeral last year (coworkers family member)....and for their Communion most of my coworkers went up too.  I know some are Catholic...but, then there was this one Baptist man...who happily went up and with a smirk on his face coming back up the aisle munching on the wafer...with a huge grin.  "Good cookie".

I know that priest didn't know who these people were.  But, he did in fact, give the Holy Gifts to a "non-believer".  This man thought it was all a joke.  While not RC, it still hurt me to see it happen.
In these cases the priest is supposed to make an announcement that only properly prepared Catholics are to receive.
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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2012, 05:56:32 PM »

We don't know the details....but, lets just say that he "knew" that the deceased woman's daughter was a lesbian....and here she is before him, with her partner....and approaches for communion.  Is he just supposed to give it to her?
If he has not spoken to her privately beforehand, Yes.


So, the priest can never decline to give the Holy Gifts to someone who approaches, unless he's spoken to them first (in private)?


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« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2012, 06:02:46 PM »

In my time in the RCC, the only time a priest ever told anyone to not come up for communion was a general announcement made at the Easter and Christmas masses (which were always packed full of people who never came at any other times of the year) that those who had not been to confession for some time should not present themselves for communion. It didn't stop anyone from receiving anyway, from what I can remember.

The Latin approach to communion makes very little sense to me.
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« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2012, 06:07:03 PM »

In my time in the RCC, the only time a priest ever told anyone to not come up for communion was a general announcement made at the Easter and Christmas masses (which were always packed full of people who never came at any other times of the year) that those who had not been to confession for some time should not present themselves for communion. It didn't stop anyone from receiving anyway, from what I can remember.

The Latin approach to communion makes very little sense to me.
yeah it's unacceptable, outrageous, blasphemous and it also attracts and stirs God's wrath (not the  heretical, Latin sort of wrath, beware)  if thorough investigations are not conducted into suspicious communicants'  FB pages, discussion forums, internet use in general and such. What a scandal!
I'm saying all this bc that sort of investigation happened to a friend of mine in an English speaking Orthodox parish. Alas he was found lacking in godly complementarian manliness  and Chicago was spared the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. It also open a couple of other people's eyes and shattered any illusion they had about that place.
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« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2012, 06:13:35 PM »


LOL!

I'm certain the person doesn't need to be investigated, however, I think a heartfelt confession wouldn't hurt.

Afterall, aren't' we taught that the Sacraments are a privilege and not a right?
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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2012, 06:19:00 PM »


LOL!

I'm certain the person doesn't need to be investigated, however, I think a heartfelt confession wouldn't hurt.

Afterall, aren't' we taught that the Sacraments are a privilege and not a right?

You are right in theory. In practice though, and for reasons that have little to do with Christianity people perceived to be gay will suffer closer scrutiny in than most other categories of sinners, in most, I would say, Orthodox settings.
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« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2012, 06:25:04 PM »


LOL!

I'm certain the person doesn't need to be investigated, however, I think a heartfelt confession wouldn't hurt.

Afterall, aren't' we taught that the Sacraments are a privilege and not a right?

You are right in theory. In practice though, and for reasons that have little to do with Christianity people perceived to be gay will suffer closer scrutiny in than most other categories of sinners, in most, I would say, Orthodox settings.

But isn't that what gays do? Scrutiny? It's like the opposite of mutiny, when like all the sailors get along. And we know sailor is just seamen for gay.
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« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2012, 06:31:07 PM »


LOL!

I'm certain the person doesn't need to be investigated, however, I think a heartfelt confession wouldn't hurt.

Afterall, aren't' we taught that the Sacraments are a privilege and not a right?

You are right in theory. In practice though, and for reasons that have little to do with Christianity people perceived to be gay will suffer closer scrutiny in than most other categories of sinners, in most, I would say, Orthodox settings.

But isn't that what gays do? Scrutiny? It's like the opposite of mutiny, when like all the sailors get along. And we know sailor is just seamen for gay.

This is seriously the gayest sentence I've ever seen on OC.net. I'm pretty sure I have a bottle of beer stashed away for just such an occasion.
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« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2012, 06:31:15 PM »

There is a difference between Catholic and Orthodox approach to this.  A Catholic priest cannot deny someone Communion unless the person is obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and that person has been admonished by the priest privately first.  So while a declared practicing lesbian should know better than to present themselves for Communion, from the Catholic perspective, unless the priest knew this as a fact from her own lips beforehand, not secondhand, he had no right to deny her.

According to a person called John Shore, Ms Johnson had told the priest of her status as a lesbian woman in a relationship (she introduced her partner to him) before the service. Here is his report:

"Fr. Marcel was made aware that Barbara is gay when she and her partner of nineteen years met with him that morning well before the service began. It was his ecclesiastic responsibility to at that meeting offer to take Barbara’s confession and then grant her absolution; this would have allowed him to then in good conscience later offer her communion. And Barbara would have certainly been pleased to do a confession with Fr. Guarnizo.

“Obviously, I don’t think being gay is a sin,” she told me. “But this wasn’t about me. This was about about my wonderful mother having the beautiful funeral that she deserved. So yes, I would have let Father Marcel grant me absolution.”

But Fr. Marcel failed to offer Barbara that rite.
...
I spoke with Barbara on the phone the day before this story hit. She is an intelligent, kind, sensitive woman. She was extremely close to her mother, who fully accepted and loved Barbara’s partner as if she were another daughter."

http://johnshore.com/2012/02/29/father-no-communion-for-you-not-the-whole-story/

What intrigued me in this story is the expectation that absolution would be given for..what? Is he expected to give absolution to every sinner, no matter how unrepentant he is?
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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2012, 06:35:07 PM »

Another funny thing here is to see all these people-well, some of them, maybe- that on other threads pontificate on how RC sacraments are graceless, getting all worried now about what a blasphemy could have taken place if that woman had communed.
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2012, 06:36:42 PM »


LOL!

I'm certain the person doesn't need to be investigated, however, I think a heartfelt confession wouldn't hurt.

Afterall, aren't' we taught that the Sacraments are a privilege and not a right?

You are right in theory. In practice though, and for reasons that have little to do with Christianity people perceived to be gay will suffer closer scrutiny in than most other categories of sinners, in most, I would say, Orthodox settings.

In practice, I know of parishes where communion is withheld for all kinds of other canonical reasons. Indeed, it is easier to discern the reasons for most everything other than homosexual conduct. By the way, what does a "apathetic, ecumenist, indifferent, traditionalist, communist, philetist, accidental Orthodox (you forgot "nominal")" person such as yourself know about this things anyway?  Wink
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« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2012, 06:37:36 PM »

Of course the thing that made it into the news is that she is a lesbian and not that she herself has posted all over the internet that she (thinks she is anyway) Buddhist. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2012, 06:40:48 PM »


LOL!

I'm certain the person doesn't need to be investigated, however, I think a heartfelt confession wouldn't hurt.

Afterall, aren't' we taught that the Sacraments are a privilege and not a right?

You are right in theory. In practice though, and for reasons that have little to do with Christianity people perceived to be gay will suffer closer scrutiny in than most other categories of sinners, in most, I would say, Orthodox settings.

In practice, I know of parishes where communion is withheld for all kinds of other canonical reasons. Indeed, it is easier to discern the reasons for most everything other than homosexual conduct. By the way, what does a "apathetic, ecumenist, indifferent, traditionalist, communist, philetist, accidental Orthodox (you forgot "nominal")" person such as yourself know about this things anyway?  Wink
It still provides me amusement. You know, a poor man's way of killing time. The bourgeois go on spiritual retreats.
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« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2012, 06:41:35 PM »

Of course the thing that made it into the news is that she is a lesbian and not that she herself has posted all over the internet that she (thinks she is anyway) Buddhist. Roll Eyes

Surprise!
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« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2012, 06:56:13 PM »


LOL!

I'm certain the person doesn't need to be investigated, however, I think a heartfelt confession wouldn't hurt.

Afterall, aren't' we taught that the Sacraments are a privilege and not a right?

You are right in theory. In practice though, and for reasons that have little to do with Christianity people perceived to be gay will suffer closer scrutiny in than most other categories of sinners, in most, I would say, Orthodox settings.

In practice, I know of parishes where communion is withheld for all kinds of other canonical reasons. Indeed, it is easier to discern the reasons for most everything other than homosexual conduct. By the way, what does a "apathetic, ecumenist, indifferent, traditionalist, communist, philetist, accidental Orthodox (you forgot "nominal")" person such as yourself know about this things anyway?  Wink
It still provides me amusement. You know, a poor man's way of killing time. The bourgeois go on spiritual retreats.

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My mothers' ancestors emigrated from Bucharest to Veliko Trnovo so I hope you excuse my boldness in calling you cousin. And, for saying the following: I pray that underneath that flippant attitude there is some substance. I pray that you have the ember in you that will once again flare up into flame if you let the Holy Spirit in. After all, what is amusement if put against great joy and peace?
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« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2012, 07:06:21 PM »

So while a declared practicing lesbian should know better than to present themselves for Communion

This singular "they" thing has gone way too far, when we can't even refer to a hypothetical lesbian as "she."
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« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2012, 07:36:35 PM »

So while a declared practicing lesbian should know better than to present themselves for Communion

This singular "they" thing has gone way too far, when we can't even refer to a hypothetical lesbian as "she."

Calm yourself, it was a grammatical error not an agenda.
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« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2012, 07:37:50 PM »

Of course the thing that made it into the news is that she is a lesbian and not that she herself has posted all over the internet that she (thinks she is anyway) Buddhist. Roll Eyes
In that case he was perfectly within his right to refuse her Communion.
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« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2012, 07:53:04 PM »

So while a declared practicing lesbian should know better than to present themselves for Communion

This singular "they" thing has gone way too far, when we can't even refer to a hypothetical lesbian as "she."

Calm yourself, it was a grammatical error not an agenda.



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« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2012, 07:55:06 PM »

Of course the thing that made it into the news is that she is a lesbian and not that she herself has posted all over the internet that she (thinks she is anyway) Buddhist. Roll Eyes
In that case he was perfectly within his right to refuse her Communion.

Wonderful. So she's refused because she's an apostate, not unrepentant. Scholasticism at its finest. Gimme a break, Dcn Lance!  Tongue Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2012, 08:18:08 PM »

Of course the thing that made it into the news is that she is a lesbian and not that she herself has posted all over the internet that she (thinks she is anyway) Buddhist. Roll Eyes
In that case he was perfectly within his right to refuse her Communion.

Wonderful. So she's refused because she's an apostate, not unrepentant. Scholasticism at its finest. Gimme a break, Dcn Lance!  Tongue Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

No Scholasticism involved at all.  If a person is proclaiming themselves an apsotate that is one thing.  One needs a private conversation to determine if a person is in a state of sin and unrepentant.  The Communion line is not the place for the first inquiry or admonishment.

I would also disagree with the article, that she should have been offered Confession and absolution before Mass so she could commune.  In order for absolution to be given the priest would have to have had some evidence that she meant to cease the sin, which I doubt she would have given.   For example, divorced and remarried people are expected to seperate from the new spouse in order to be readmitted.  This lady would have been simply going through the motions in order to get her way, as evidenced by her further comments.
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« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2012, 08:33:52 PM »

Of course the thing that made it into the news is that she is a lesbian and not that she herself has posted all over the internet that she (thinks she is anyway) Buddhist. Roll Eyes
In that case he was perfectly within his right to refuse her Communion.
But there is no evidence he knew about her Buddhist "proclivities" beforehand.
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« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2012, 08:42:59 PM »

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In order for absolution to be given the priest would have to have had some evidence that she meant to cease the sin, which I doubt she would have given.   

QED. Hoist by your own petard, Dcn Lance.
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« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2012, 08:52:37 PM »

...  As for not giving communion to the woman, he was doing his job and if that is the reason they dumped him ...then it's a sign of a deeper rot in that archdiocese.
...If someone is going to go up for communion, knowing that they cannot take it, when is the priest supposed to tell them no to take communion?  I sounded from what the priest said that he did everything correctly.  It is his duty to tell someone who is not prepared that they cannot commune.  To commune them is such a situation could risk damnation for both parties.
I agree.
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« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2012, 08:57:37 PM »

Of course the thing that made it into the news is that she is a lesbian and not that she herself has posted all over the internet that she (thinks she is anyway) Buddhist. Roll Eyes
In that case he was perfectly within his right to refuse her Communion.

Wonderful. So she's refused because she's an apostate, not unrepentant. Scholasticism at its finest. Gimme a break, Dcn Lance!  Tongue Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

No Scholasticism involved at all.  If a person is proclaiming themselves an apsotate that is one thing.  One needs a private conversation to determine if a person is in a state of sin and unrepentant.  The Communion line is not the place for the first inquiry or admonishment.

I disagree with the deacon. If the news reports that I read are correct, she proclaims herself to be a Buddhist, and she made the priest aware that she was  living with her lesbian partner.
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« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2012, 09:11:27 PM »

Another funny thing here is to see all these people-well, some of them, maybe- that on other threads pontificate on how RC sacraments are graceless, getting all worried now about what a blasphemy could have taken place if that woman had communed.

I was kind of thinking "what difference does it make?"  How can their be any problem if there is no Grace in the RC sacraments?  Seems like much to do about nothing.
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« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2012, 09:11:42 PM »

LBK

You are failing to distinguish between a priest to refusing Communion to one whom he has postively identified as obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and refusing it based on a hunch or worse rumor.

Refusing Communion in the Catholic Church is a big deal because by doing so the priest is proclaiming the person in a state of mortal sin and/or excommunication.  In the Orthodox Church one can be refused simply because the priest doesn't know you.
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« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2012, 09:18:17 PM »

Of course the thing that made it into the news is that she is a lesbian and not that she herself has posted all over the internet that she (thinks she is anyway) Buddhist. Roll Eyes
In that case he was perfectly within his right to refuse her Communion.

Wonderful. So she's refused because she's an apostate, not unrepentant. Scholasticism at its finest. Gimme a break, Dcn Lance!  Tongue Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

No Scholasticism involved at all.  If a person is proclaiming themselves an apsotate that is one thing.  One needs a private conversation to determine if a person is in a state of sin and unrepentant.  The Communion line is not the place for the first inquiry or admonishment.

I disagree with the deacon. If the news reports that I read are correct, she proclaims herself to be a Buddhist, and she made the priest aware that she was  living with her lesbian partner.

And if true he should have informed then and there not to approach for Communion, not wait until Communion time.   
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« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2012, 09:22:01 PM »

LBK

You are failing to distinguish between a priest to refusing Communion to one whom he has postively identified as obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and refusing it based on a hunch or worse rumor.

Refusing Communion in the Catholic Church is a big deal because by doing so the priest is proclaiming the person in a state of mortal sin and/or excommunication.  In the Orthodox Church one can be refused simply because the priest doesn't know you.

Unless everyone knows you, and then $*i7 be gettins real.
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« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2012, 09:25:58 PM »

LBK

You are failing to distinguish between a priest to refusing Communion to one whom he has postively identified as obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and refusing it based on a hunch or worse rumor.

Refusing Communion in the Catholic Church is a big deal because by doing so the priest is proclaiming the person in a state of mortal sin and/or excommunication.  In the Orthodox Church one can be refused simply because the priest doesn't know you.

Rubbish. The guardian of the chalice, be he bishop, or priest obedient to his bishop, be he Orthodox or RC/EC, has the responsibility to ensure whoever approaches the chalice has prepared himself or herself properly. This includes confession and absolution, which can only be given by a priest or bishop where someone has expressed contrition and repentance for their sins, irrespective of the nature of their sins.

As you should know, we Orthodox don't distinguish between "venial" and "mortal" sins. Repentance is repentance. There is no evidence that this homosexual woman has repented from her sin, be it her engaging in homosexual acts, or her apostasy. It is repentance which allows us, Orthodox and Roman/Eastern Catholic alike, to approach the chalice.

Or am I mistaken about the RC/EC?
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« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2012, 09:26:45 PM »

Another funny thing here is to see all these people-well, some of them, maybe- that on other threads pontificate on how RC sacraments are graceless, getting all worried now about what a blasphemy could have taken place if that woman had communed.

I was kind of thinking "what difference does it make?"  How can their be any problem if there is no Grace in the RC sacraments?  Seems like much to do about nothing.
According to the canon 69 of John the Faster a lesbian cannot even partake in graceless, heretical sacraments. Zonaras and Balsamon explain it would be second degree blasphemy. The neo-patristic theologians in order  to avoid any hint of scholasticism prefer to talk about " a type of blasphemy" or "ikonic blasphemy">
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« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2012, 09:48:50 PM »

LBK

You are failing to distinguish between a priest to refusing Communion to one whom he has postively identified as obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and refusing it based on a hunch or worse rumor.

Refusing Communion in the Catholic Church is a big deal because by doing so the priest is proclaiming the person in a state of mortal sin and/or excommunication.  In the Orthodox Church one can be refused simply because the priest doesn't know you.

Rubbish. The guardian of the chalice, be he bishop, or priest obedient to his bishop, be he Orthodox or RC/EC, has the responsibility to ensure whoever approaches the chalice has prepared himself or herself properly. This includes confession and absolution, which can only be given by a priest or bishop where someone has expressed contrition and repentance for their sins, irrespective of the nature of their sins.

As you should know, we Orthodox don't distinguish between "venial" and "mortal" sins. Repentance is repentance. There is no evidence that this homosexual woman has repented from her sin, be it her engaging in homosexual acts, or her apostasy. It is repentance which allows us, Orthodox and Roman/Eastern Catholic alike, to approach the chalice.

Or am I mistaken about the RC/EC?

You are mistaken.  In the Catholic Church it is the communicant who has the primary responsibilty for making sure he is properly prepared, having kept the Eucharistic fast and not having any unrepented mortal sin.  The Catholic Church doesn't require Confession before every Communion.  Confession is only required if one is aware of mortal sin.  Again the priest can only withhold Communion if he knows the person is not Catholic or is persistant in mortal sin he has privately admonished the person about already. 

And while not using the terminology venial and mortal, Orthodoxy certainly distinguishes between sins otherwise there would not be canons requiring years of non-communication for some sins and not others.

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« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2012, 09:56:38 PM »

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In the Catholic Church it is the communicant who has the primary responsibilty for making sure he is properly prepared, having kept the Eucharistic fast and not having any unrepented mortal sin. 
Which puts the responsibility of guarding the chalice on the layman, not the priest. Nice.  Tongue

Quote
The Catholic Church doesn't require Confession before every Communion.

Neither does the Greek church. But don't think that Greek priests aren't capable of turning away folks who have not properly prepared themselves. I've been around.  Wink

Quote
And while not using the terminology venial and mortal, Orthodoxy certainly distinguishes between sins otherwise there would not be canons requiring years of non-communication for some sins and not others.

We are pastoral, not legalistic.  Wink
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« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2012, 10:03:25 PM »

Another funny thing here is to see all these people-well, some of them, maybe- that on other threads pontificate on how RC sacraments are graceless, getting all worried now about what a blasphemy could have taken place if that woman had communed.

I was kind of thinking "what difference does it make?"  How can their be any problem if there is no Grace in the RC sacraments?  Seems like much to do about nothing.
According to the canon 69 of John the Faster a lesbian cannot even partake in graceless, heretical sacraments. Zonaras and Balsamon explain it would be second degree blasphemy. The neo-patristic theologians in order  to avoid any hint of scholasticism prefer to talk about " a type of blasphemy" or "ikonic blasphemy">

Second degree Malachy with intent to sing musical numbers.
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« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2012, 10:04:39 PM »

Another funny thing here is to see all these people-well, some of them, maybe- that on other threads pontificate on how RC sacraments are graceless, getting all worried now about what a blasphemy could have taken place if that woman had communed.

I was kind of thinking "what difference does it make?"  How can their be any problem if there is no Grace in the RC sacraments?  Seems like much to do about nothing.

Well, it is one more problem that would have to be addressed before there could ever be a return of Rome to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2012, 10:09:33 PM »

According to the canon 69 of John the Faster a lesbian cannot even partake in graceless, heretical sacraments. Zonaras and Balsamon explain it would be second degree blasphemy. The neo-patristic theologians in order  to avoid any hint of scholasticism prefer to talk about " a type of blasphemy" or "ikonic blasphemy">

Post of the month...?
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« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2012, 10:35:37 PM »

Which puts the responsibility of guarding the chalice on the layman, not the priest.
It is anyways.  Priests are not clairvoyant, a person can go through the motions and be unprepared and receive unworthily.  It is ultimately on their souls.


Neither does the Greek church. But don't think that Greek priests aren't capable of turning away folks who have not properly prepared themselves. I've been around.
Indeed, they may turn properly prepared folks away simply because they don't know them.
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« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2012, 11:10:47 PM »

Everyone seems to be ragging on the priest.  This woman had no business presenting herself because she's not even a practicing Catholic!  The Eucharist isn't given out except to the faithful. The Eucharist is not some outreach means to those who are not members of the body.

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« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2012, 11:46:40 PM »

Everyone seems to be ragging on the priest.  This woman had no business presenting herself because she's not even a practicing Catholic!  The Eucharist isn't given out except to the faithful.
Well, that depends.
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« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2012, 03:12:06 AM »

Which puts the responsibility of guarding the chalice on the layman, not the priest.
It is anyways.  Priests are not clairvoyant, a person can go through the motions and be unprepared and receive unworthily.  It is ultimately on their souls.


Neither does the Greek church. But don't think that Greek priests aren't capable of turning away folks who have not properly prepared themselves. I've been around.
Indeed, they may turn properly prepared folks away simply because they don't know them.

More sophistry from Dcn Lance. Why am I not surprised?
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« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2012, 05:12:49 AM »

I don't see how the priest did not do the right thing. This woman was a practicing homosexual who was under a very grave sin. We are told not to take of the Eucharist unworthily and she should have known she was doing wrong in trying to take it. I believe also this woman is a practicing Bhudist. THe priest was perfectly reasonable in not giving her communion.
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« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2012, 06:04:26 AM »

We are pastoral, not legalistic.  Wink

In theory that is nice, but in reality my life in the MP is far, far more legalistic than my youth in the Catholic Church. 

In general Deacon Lance is saying that the onus is one the communicant to prepare.  This is only logical and practical - in large parishes it simply isn't possible for a priest to intimately know every person.  You claim the Orthodox Church is so high and mighty for protecting the sacrament - if the Orthodox Church cares so deeply about the sanctity of sacraments why does it allow divorce and remarriage in direct contradiction to the words of Christ? 
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« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2012, 06:18:54 AM »

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if the Orthodox Church cares so deeply about the sanctity of sacraments why does it allow divorce and remarriage in direct contradiction to the words of Christ? 

Ask the Fathers, saints and hymnographers who compiled the services for second and third marriages, and who allowed them into the liturgical deposit of the Church.
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« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2012, 06:39:18 AM »

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if the Orthodox Church cares so deeply about the sanctity of sacraments why does it allow divorce and remarriage in direct contradiction to the words of Christ? 

Ask the Fathers, saints and hymnographers who compiled the services for second and third marriages, and who allowed them into the liturgical deposit of the Church.

And Catholics say the same about their practices. 
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« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2012, 07:14:08 AM »

We are pastoral, not legalistic.  Wink

In theory that is nice, but in reality my life in the MP is far, far more legalistic than my youth in the Catholic Church. 

In general Deacon Lance is saying that the onus is one the communicant to prepare.  This is only logical and practical - in large parishes it simply isn't possible for a priest to intimately know every person.  You claim the Orthodox Church is so high and mighty for protecting the sacrament - if the Orthodox Church cares so deeply about the sanctity of sacraments why does it allow divorce and remarriage in direct contradiction to the words of Christ? 

With all due respect, the RC gives annulments and pretends there was no marriage, even when there are children involved and it makes those children illegitimate.  At least the Orthodox are honest enough to admit that there was a marriage and not that anyone at the wedding must have dreamed it.
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« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2012, 07:27:51 AM »

We are pastoral, not legalistic.  Wink

In theory that is nice, but in reality my life in the MP is far, far more legalistic than my youth in the Catholic Church. 

In general Deacon Lance is saying that the onus is one the communicant to prepare.  This is only logical and practical - in large parishes it simply isn't possible for a priest to intimately know every person.  You claim the Orthodox Church is so high and mighty for protecting the sacrament - if the Orthodox Church cares so deeply about the sanctity of sacraments why does it allow divorce and remarriage in direct contradiction to the words of Christ? 

With all due respect, the RC gives annulments and pretends there was no marriage, even when there are children involved and it makes those children illegitimate.  At least the Orthodox are honest enough to admit that there was a marriage and not that anyone at the wedding must have dreamed it.

Such is a modern abuse mostly isolated to North America. 

My point is that LBK (and other Orthodox) have no leg to stand on when they criticize the Catholic Church for not guarding the sanctity of the sacraments when the Orthodox Church directly contradicts the very words of Christ.  The best part was LBK's justification - the development of doctrine!  If we're going to disagree with the Catholic Church, let's do so for valid theological reasons (Papal Infallibility, filioque and such) rather than petty squabbles over incidentals. 
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« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2012, 01:02:59 PM »

Quote
if the Orthodox Church cares so deeply about the sanctity of sacraments why does it allow divorce and remarriage in direct contradiction to the words of Christ? 

Ask the Fathers, saints and hymnographers who compiled the services for second and third marriages, and who allowed them into the liturgical deposit of the Church.

And Catholics say the same about their practices. 
What Fathers and saints dreamed up the corban factory/marriage tribunals?
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« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2012, 01:02:59 PM »

We are pastoral, not legalistic.  Wink

In theory that is nice, but in reality my life in the MP is far, far more legalistic than my youth in the Catholic Church. 

In general Deacon Lance is saying that the onus is one the communicant to prepare.  This is only logical and practical - in large parishes it simply isn't possible for a priest to intimately know every person.  You claim the Orthodox Church is so high and mighty for protecting the sacrament - if the Orthodox Church cares so deeply about the sanctity of sacraments why does it allow divorce and remarriage in direct contradiction to the words of Christ? 
"What you loose on earth will be loose in heave"?

When a priest marries someone divorced from a faithful spouse, he is flouting the Orthodox Church.  When the corban factory annulls a marriage, it is following the Vatican.
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« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2012, 03:16:18 PM »

I don't see how the priest did not do the right thing. This woman was a practicing homosexual who was under a very grave sin. We are told not to take of the Eucharist unworthily and she should have known she was doing wrong in trying to take it. I believe also this woman is a practicing Bhudist. THe priest was perfectly reasonable in not giving her communion.
That's right. And she was public about her Buddhism, writing papers professing belief in Buddha.
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« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2012, 04:26:10 PM »

Frankly, I find the positions set forth by Deacon Lance to be most reasonable. I do not think that he is any more legalistic than anybody else who has posted on this thread. If he were a Deacon in the Orthodox Church, I doubt that he would have incurred the same degree of disagreement.
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« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2012, 05:08:29 PM »

maybe he gave her a penance to abstain from eucharist for a period of time...we may not have all there is to the story here...
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« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2012, 05:14:25 PM »

Wouldn't the issue come down to whether homosexuality is subject to latae sententiae or ferendae sententiae excommunication? I don't know enough about Latin canon law to know which category it falls under, but if it falls under latae sententiae excommunication then the priest is justified, otherwise, until such time as an ecclesiastical court is convened and she is convicted, he would not be justified in refusing communion. For better or worse, Latin canon law is much more cut and dry than Orthodox canon law.

But, in either case, I think his refusal to bury this woman's mother because of objections over her (not her mother's) lifestyle would earn stern reproach in both the Orthodox and Catholic churches...an Orthodox bishop would have likely responded in the same manner.
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« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2012, 05:26:53 PM »

But, in either case, I think his refusal to bury this woman's mother because of objections over her (not her mother's) lifestyle would earn stern reproach in both the Orthodox and Catholic churches...an Orthodox bishop would have likely responded in the same manner.

I thought he cancelled attending the burial due to a migraine.  I get migraines - it is entirely possible to get one suddenly and be complete incapacitated.  The stress of the event could easily trigger one. 
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« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2012, 05:29:55 PM »

I get migraines - it is entirely possible to get one suddenly and be complete incapacitated. 

Have you considered this?

http://thepaleodiet.com/
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« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2012, 05:31:44 PM »

Frankly, I find the positions set forth by Deacon Lance to be most reasonable. I do not think that he is any more legalistic than anybody else who has posted on this thread. If he were a Deacon in the Orthodox Church, I doubt that he would have incurred the same degree of disagreement.

Exactly.  If Deacon Lance affirmed the divinity of Christ, certain posters here would disagree with him out of principle.  Furthermore it would be clear proof of UGCC plot to sheep steal from the Orthodox.  
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« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2012, 05:46:52 PM »

I get migraines - it is entirely possible to get one suddenly and be complete incapacitated. 

Have you considered this?

http://thepaleodiet.com/

 Cheesy
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« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2012, 05:49:28 PM »

With all due respect, the RC gives annulments and pretends there was no marriage, even when there are children involved and it makes those children illegitimate.  At least the Orthodox are honest enough to admit that there was a marriage and not that anyone at the wedding must have dreamed it.

It does no such thing.  A declartion of nullity is the judgement that states because of a defect in form or intent a valid sacramental marriage did not take place.  It is not saying a legal or natural marriage did not take place.  A declaration of nullity does not make children illegitimate.  

Can. 1137 Children who are conceived or born of a valid or of a putative marriage are legitimate.
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« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2012, 06:00:15 PM »


LOL!

I'm certain the person doesn't need to be investigated, however, I think a heartfelt confession wouldn't hurt.

Afterall, aren't' we taught that the Sacraments are a privilege and not a right?

You are right in theory. In practice though, and for reasons that have little to do with Christianity people perceived to be gay will suffer closer scrutiny in than most other categories of sinners, in most, I would say, Orthodox settings.

But isn't that what gays do? Scrutiny? It's like the opposite of mutiny, when like all the sailors get along. And we know sailor is just seamen for gay.

O what ghastly puns perceived!!...or is that conceived...no no...not that way...
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« Reply #67 on: March 13, 2012, 06:02:46 PM »

Frankly, I find the positions set forth by Deacon Lance to be most reasonable. I do not think that he is any more legalistic than anybody else who has posted on this thread. If he were a Deacon in the Orthodox Church, I doubt that he would have incurred the same degree of disagreement.

I thought the same thing about his being reasonable and all. I didn't realize he was Catholic at the time though.

I amend my previous thoughts.
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« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2012, 06:13:19 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, the RC gives annulments and pretends there was no marriage, even when there are children involved and it makes those children illegitimate.  At least the Orthodox are honest enough to admit that there was a marriage and not that anyone at the wedding must have dreamed it.
Such is a modern abuse mostly isolated to North America. 
I'll have to disagree with you here.

Maybe it was uncommon among peasants and serfs in Europe. Nobility on the other hand...
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« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2012, 06:23:01 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, the RC gives annulments and pretends there was no marriage, even when there are children involved and it makes those children illegitimate.  At least the Orthodox are honest enough to admit that there was a marriage and not that anyone at the wedding must have dreamed it.
Such is a modern abuse mostly isolated to North America. 
I'll have to disagree with you here.

Maybe it was uncommon among peasants and serfs in Europe. Nobility on the other hand...

Peasants aren't noble? I thought you were Orthodox!

ROCOR Rousseau: The Noble Peasant.

How to convince middle class white people to style themselves in selected accouterment of the pre-Communist and Capitalist Eastern European poor.
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« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2012, 06:48:58 PM »

A thank you to my Orthodox brethren.  I strive to be reasoned, fair-minded, and respectful in my posts.  It is nice that some people notice.
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« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2012, 06:51:58 PM »

A thank you to my Orthodox brethren.  I strive to be reasoned, fair-minded, and respectful in my posts.  It is nice that some people notice.

If you want to be noticed for something, that is the WRONG to go about it.

See the following for reading about how to get attention:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4153;sa=showPosts


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« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2012, 07:19:41 PM »

Frankly, I find the positions set forth by Deacon Lance to be most reasonable. I do not think that he is any more legalistic than anybody else who has posted on this thread. If he were a Deacon in the Orthodox Church, I doubt that he would have incurred the same degree of disagreement.

Actually if he were an Orthodox Deacon he might get more disagreement for he would be expected to know that the Orthodox Priest is ordered by his Bishop at his ordination to Guard the Eucharist and not rely on the faithful to guard it for him.

From the Ordination Service of a Priest:

After the consecration of the Eucharist, the bishop places the body of Christ into the new priest's hands with the following admonition:

Bishop: Receive this Divine Trust, and guard it until the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, at which time He will demand It from you.

I commend the priest for his Orthodox approach to guarding Body of Christ. His suspension over the matter just proves again that Orthodoxy and Roman Catholic are far from being the same Church...so much for the too lungs theory.
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« Reply #73 on: March 13, 2012, 07:30:43 PM »

Grace and Peace,

Let's just be real... there are very large factions in the Roman Catholic Church that do not uphold Catholic Moral Positions on these matter and simply lack the will to resist the liberal social movements sweeping through the West.

I'm ex-Catholic and I know this first hand.
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« Reply #74 on: March 13, 2012, 07:32:02 PM »

Frankly, I find the positions set forth by Deacon Lance to be most reasonable. I do not think that he is any more legalistic than anybody else who has posted on this thread. If he were a Deacon in the Orthodox Church, I doubt that he would have incurred the same degree of disagreement.

Actually if he were an Orthodox Deacon he might get more disagreement for he would be expected to know that the Orthodox Priest is ordered by his Bishop at his ordination to Guard the Eucharist and not rely on the faithful to guard it for him.

From the Ordination Service of a Priest:

After the consecration of the Eucharist, the bishop places the body of Christ into the new priest's hands with the following admonition:

Bishop: Receive this Divine Trust, and guard it until the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, at which time He will demand It from you.

I commend the priest for his Orthodox approach to guarding Body of Christ. His suspension over the matter just proves again that Orthodoxy and Roman Catholic are far from being the same Church...so much for the too lungs theory.


My Church uses the same rite.  I wonder however if the author intened that admonition to be more for the priest to guard against his own unworthiness.  The Holy Gifts are medicine for the sinner not rewards for the perfect.
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« Reply #75 on: March 13, 2012, 07:35:40 PM »

Frankly, I find the positions set forth by Deacon Lance to be most reasonable. I do not think that he is any more legalistic than anybody else who has posted on this thread. If he were a Deacon in the Orthodox Church, I doubt that he would have incurred the same degree of disagreement.

Actually if he were an Orthodox Deacon he might get more disagreement for he would be expected to know that the Orthodox Priest is ordered by his Bishop at his ordination to Guard the Eucharist and not rely on the faithful to guard it for him.

From the Ordination Service of a Priest:

After the consecration of the Eucharist, the bishop places the body of Christ into the new priest's hands with the following admonition:

Bishop: Receive this Divine Trust, and guard it until the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, at which time He will demand It from you.

I commend the priest for his Orthodox approach to guarding Body of Christ. His suspension over the matter just proves again that Orthodoxy and Roman Catholic are far from being the same Church...so much for the too lungs theory.


My Church uses the same rite.  I wonder however if the author intened that admonition to be more for the priest to guard against his own unworthiness.  The Holy Gifts are medicine for the sinner not rewards for the perfect.

I dare say that St. Paul would have trouble with your rationalization here.
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« Reply #76 on: March 13, 2012, 07:38:02 PM »

Grace and Peace,

Let's just be real... there are very large factions in the Roman Catholic Church that do not uphold Catholic Moral Positions on these matter and simply lack the will to resist the liberal social movements sweeping through the West.

I'm ex-Catholic and I know this first hand.

I would go one further and say some actively aid them but I don't think that is the case here.
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« Reply #77 on: March 13, 2012, 07:46:35 PM »

We don't know the details....but, lets just say that he "knew" that the deceased woman's daughter was a lesbian....and here she is before him, with her partner....and approaches for communion.  Is he just supposed to give it to her?

This is just another reason to have people go to Holy Confession before going to Holy Communion.  It would have given the priest a chance to "council her in private".

This way the priest also knows who is who, and who is approaching the Holy Gifts.  

My parish tradition is we Confess prior to going to Holy Communion.  This way when our priest notices an "unknown" face approaching, he quietly speaks to them, lifts the chalice for them to kiss, and has them move on.  Nobody except the person immediately behind them realizes the person didn't receive the Holy Gifts.

I went to an RC funeral last year (coworkers family member)....and for their Communion most of my coworkers went up too.  I know some are Catholic...but, then there was this one Baptist man...who happily went up and with a smirk on his face coming back up the aisle munching on the wafer...with a huge grin.  "Good cookie".

I know that priest didn't know who these people were.  But, he did in fact, give the Holy Gifts to a "non-believer".  This man thought it was all a joke.  While not RC, it still hurt me to see it happen.

So, I believe the priest has every right to withhold Communion.  It's his responsibility to safeguard the Gifts.



He could have gave her a blessing instead of not obeying his bishop OR she could have gone to the lay person handing out the bread.  Sounds like both parties may have had ulterior motives.  They should call it a draw and move on.
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« Reply #78 on: March 13, 2012, 07:51:13 PM »

We are pastoral, not legalistic.  Wink

In theory that is nice, but in reality my life in the MP is far, far more legalistic than my youth in the Catholic Church. 

In general Deacon Lance is saying that the onus is one the communicant to prepare.  This is only logical and practical - in large parishes it simply isn't possible for a priest to intimately know every person.  You claim the Orthodox Church is so high and mighty for protecting the sacrament - if the Orthodox Church cares so deeply about the sanctity of sacraments why does it allow divorce and remarriage in direct contradiction to the words of Christ? 

You go!  I don't know if people realise that some RCC are huge, like 10,000 plus people huge.  Even the smaller town RCC here have membership that compares to some Orthodox jurisdictions.
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« Reply #79 on: March 13, 2012, 07:53:49 PM »

LBK

You are failing to distinguish between a priest to refusing Communion to one whom he has postively identified as obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and refusing it based on a hunch or worse rumor.

Refusing Communion in the Catholic Church is a big deal because by doing so the priest is proclaiming the person in a state of mortal sin and/or excommunication.  In the Orthodox Church one can be refused simply because the priest doesn't know you.
 Wrong or right in Orthodox minds what the RCC does on this is really their business.  He should have buried her mother and not let the family sit there when they needed the priest to be there to help them grieve and bury their beloved departed.

Remember this parish is near Washington DC.
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« Reply #80 on: March 13, 2012, 07:59:22 PM »

Frankly, I find the positions set forth by Deacon Lance to be most reasonable. I do not think that he is any more legalistic than anybody else who has posted on this thread. If he were a Deacon in the Orthodox Church, I doubt that he would have incurred the same degree of disagreement.

Actually if he were an Orthodox Deacon he might get more disagreement for he would be expected to know that the Orthodox Priest is ordered by his Bishop at his ordination to Guard the Eucharist and not rely on the faithful to guard it for him.

From the Ordination Service of a Priest:

After the consecration of the Eucharist, the bishop places the body of Christ into the new priest's hands with the following admonition:

Bishop: Receive this Divine Trust, and guard it until the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, at which time He will demand It from you.

I commend the priest for his Orthodox approach to guarding Body of Christ. His suspension over the matter just proves again that Orthodoxy and Roman Catholic are far from being the same Church...so much for the too lungs theory.


My Church uses the same rite.  I wonder however if the author intened that admonition to be more for the priest to guard against his own unworthiness.  The Holy Gifts are medicine for the sinner not rewards for the perfect.

I dare say that St. Paul would have trouble with your rationalization here.

Read the Liturgy.  For example these from the Liturgy of St. Basil the Great:

Lord, our God, You created us and brought us into this life. You have shown us the way to salvation and have bestowed upon us the revelation of heavenly mysteries. You have appointed us to this service by the power of Your Holy Spirit. Grant, therefore, O Lord that we may be accepted as servants of Your new Covenant and ministers of Your holy mysteries. Accept us as we draw near to Your holy altar, according to the multitude of Your mercy, that we may be worthy to offer You this spiritual sacrifice without the shedding of blood, for our sins and for the transgressions of Your people. Grant that, having accepted this sacrifice upon Your holy, heavenly, and spiritual altar as an offering of spiritual fragrance, You may in return send down upon us the grace of Your Holy Spirit. Look upon us, O God, and consider our worship; and accept it as You accepted the gifts of Abel, the sacrifices of Noah, the burnt offerings of Abraham, the priestly offices of Moses and Aaron, and the peace offerings of Samuel. As You accepted this true worship from Your holy apostles, accept also in Your goodness, O Lord, these gifts from the hands of us sinners, that being deemed worthy to serve at Your holy altar without blame., we may obtain the reward of the faithful stewards on the fearful day of Your just judgment.

Therefore, most holy Master, we also, Your sinful and unworthy servants, whom You have made worthy to serve at Your holy altar, not because of our own righteousness (for we have not done anything good upon the earth), but because of Your mercy and compassion, which You have so richly poured upon us, we dare to approach Your holy altar, and bring forth the symbols of the holy Body and Blood of Your Christ. We pray to You and call upon You, O Holy of Holies, that by the favor of Your goodness, Your Holy Spirit may come upon us and upon the gifts here presented, to bless, sanctify, and make this bread to be the precious Body of our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/basil
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« Reply #81 on: March 14, 2012, 03:33:33 AM »

With all due respect, the RC gives annulments and pretends there was no marriage, even when there are children involved and it makes those children illegitimate.  At least the Orthodox are honest enough to admit that there was a marriage and not that anyone at the wedding must have dreamed it.

It does no such thing.  A declartion of nullity is the judgement that states because of a defect in form or intent a valid sacramental marriage did not take place.  It is not saying a legal or natural marriage did not take place.  A declaration of nullity does not make children illegitimate.  

Can. 1137 Children who are conceived or born of a valid or of a putative marriage are legitimate.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P43.HTM
Oh. So children of a putative marriage are legitimate, even if the assumption that there was ever a marriage was a false one? There have been cases where a couple have never been married, but it is assumed by their friends and aquaintances that they were married. So even though they have never been legally married, according to you, their children are legitimate, because it is a putative marriage?
This seems contrary to the common definition of illegitimacy.
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« Reply #82 on: March 14, 2012, 03:37:03 AM »

Grace and Peace,

Let's just be real... there are very large factions in the Roman Catholic Church that do not uphold Catholic Moral Positions on these matter and simply lack the will to resist the liberal social movements sweeping through the West.

I'm ex-Catholic and I know this first hand.
But are those who do not uphold Catholic moral positions correct, or was the priest correct in denying the Sacrament to a lesbian activist who publically announces that she is a Buddhist?
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« Reply #83 on: March 14, 2012, 03:46:35 AM »

Of course the priest is correct. If he is suspended for some other matter, that's one thing, but he is absolutely right to deny this woman the Eucharist. What the worst do or don't do (no matter how many they are) is not to be used as a cudgel against those who are serious and committed to their faith and its teachings.
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« Reply #84 on: March 14, 2012, 04:04:15 AM »

Why does legitimacy matter?  Are we back in the middle ages?
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« Reply #85 on: March 14, 2012, 06:43:28 AM »

So it is no longer a sin to have sex outside of marriage?  If a marriage is annulled and they were never married, then the children were conceived by having sex outside of marriage correct?
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« Reply #86 on: March 14, 2012, 07:00:10 AM »

So it is no longer a sin to have sex outside of marriage?  If a marriage is annulled and they were never married, then the children were conceived by having sex outside of marriage correct?

So what?  Again, I ask is this the middle ages?   
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« Reply #87 on: March 14, 2012, 12:42:58 PM »

Quote
He should have buried her mother and not let the family sit there when they needed the priest to be there to help them grieve and bury their beloved departed.
Yeah, the priest should not have excused himself, however he was right in denying the eucharist.

Quote
Let's just be real... there are very large factions in the Roman Catholic Church that do not uphold Catholic Moral Positions on these matter and simply lack the will to resist the liberal social movements sweeping through the West
Look how the Episcopal Church has fared thanks to this agenda. It really is a cancer.

PP
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« Reply #88 on: March 14, 2012, 02:29:20 PM »

Why does legitimacy matter?  Are we back in the middle ages?
What is wrong with the Middle Ages? Aren't moral values supposed to pass on unchanged from one generation to the next? Take for example the sin of idolatry or worship of strange gods. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.
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« Reply #89 on: March 14, 2012, 03:03:13 PM »

So it is no longer a sin to have sex outside of marriage?  If a marriage is annulled and they were never married, then the children were conceived by having sex outside of marriage correct?

So what?  Again, I ask is this the middle ages?   

Because ours is so much better?
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« Reply #90 on: March 14, 2012, 03:27:45 PM »

Why does legitimacy matter?  Are we back in the middle ages?
What is wrong with the Middle Ages? Aren't moral values supposed to pass on unchanged from one generation to the next? Take for example the sin of idolatry or worship of strange gods. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

I don't see Nektarios talking about 'morality' per se. He's asking about the question of legitimacy as applied to the children--who aren't guilty of anything whether the parents were married or not. He's asking why we should care whether or not children are legitimate (as opposed to the Middle Ages where there were definite legal as well as social issues around being a 'bastard'). I'm not sure if I agree with him, but the question itself is totally separate from the morality of the parents.
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« Reply #91 on: March 14, 2012, 04:12:30 PM »

So it is no longer a sin to have sex outside of marriage?  If a marriage is annulled and they were never married, then the children were conceived by having sex outside of marriage correct?
No and no.  A marriage is not annulled.  A declaration of nullity states that a sacramental marriage never took place due to a defect in form or consent.  The Church recognizes that a civil marraige took place. 
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« Reply #92 on: March 14, 2012, 04:26:39 PM »

So it is no longer a sin to have sex outside of marriage?  If a marriage is annulled and they were never married, then the children were conceived by having sex outside of marriage correct?
No and no.  A marriage is not annulled.  A declaration of nullity states that a sacramental marriage never took place due to a defect in form or consent.  The Church recognizes that a civil marraige took place. 

How does the Orthodox Church view a civil marriage?

If you were never married within any Christian church and completely without religious conviction and the marriage had no more pomp during the contract than signing a mortgage. And the contract was then dissolved, were you considered "married" within the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #93 on: March 14, 2012, 04:38:06 PM »

Why does legitimacy matter?  Are we back in the middle ages?
What is wrong with the Middle Ages? Aren't moral values supposed to pass on unchanged from one generation to the next? Take for example the sin of idolatry or worship of strange gods. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

I don't see Nektarios talking about 'morality' per se. He's asking about the question of legitimacy as applied to the children--who aren't guilty of anything whether the parents were married or not. He's asking why we should care whether or not children are legitimate (as opposed to the Middle Ages where there were definite legal as well as social issues around being a 'bastard'). I'm not sure if I agree with him, but the question itself is totally separate from the morality of the parents.

Exactly.  Illegitimacy is a legal concept that was primarily used in the middle ages.  It was important because it had the potential to exclude inheritance rights.  So getting back to my question, why on earth does it matter if a person is "legitimate" or "illegitimate"? 
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« Reply #94 on: March 14, 2012, 05:06:22 PM »

Oh. So children of a putative marriage are legitimate, even if the assumption that there was ever a marriage was a false one? There have been cases where a couple have never been married, but it is assumed by their friends and aquaintances that they were married. So even though they have never been legally married, according to you, their children are legitimate, because it is a putative marriage?
This seems contrary to the common definition of illegitimacy.

You are mixing issues.  The concept of putative marriage is different from common law marriage or simply lying and saying one is married when one isn't.  A putative marriage is one that is reputed to be valid and is believed to be so by at least one of the spouses because they entered it in good faith. So the answer to your first question is yes.  The answer to your second question is no, because in that example there never was a marriage sacramental or civil.
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« Reply #95 on: March 14, 2012, 05:16:25 PM »

Why does legitimacy matter?  Are we back in the middle ages?
What is wrong with the Middle Ages? Aren't moral values supposed to pass on unchanged from one generation to the next? Take for example the sin of idolatry or worship of strange gods. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

I don't see Nektarios talking about 'morality' per se. He's asking about the question of legitimacy as applied to the children--who aren't guilty of anything whether the parents were married or not. He's asking why we should care whether or not children are legitimate (as opposed to the Middle Ages where there were definite legal as well as social issues around being a 'bastard'). I'm not sure if I agree with him, but the question itself is totally separate from the morality of the parents.

Exactly.  Illegitimacy is a legal concept that was primarily used in the middle ages.  It was important because it had the potential to exclude inheritance rights.  So getting back to my question, why on earth does it matter if a person is "legitimate" or "illegitimate"? 

Yes, the transition from ancient inheritance laws to modern contract law has rendered the issue of legitimacy irrelevant. But with that, it has also rendered the institution of marriage obsolete...they're both equally absurd in a modern context. So if we're going to argue about something as outdated as marriage, why not throw in discussions about ancient inheritance laws, the legitimacy of children, spiritual degrees of separation, etc.? You know, things that were relevant back when marriage was actually relevant.

In some sense, I see where you are coming from.  But marriage is a contract between two willing parties and has evolved into a modernity. 
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« Reply #96 on: March 14, 2012, 05:19:53 PM »

So it is no longer a sin to have sex outside of marriage?  If a marriage is annulled and they were never married, then the children were conceived by having sex outside of marriage correct?
 A declaration of nullity states that a sacramental marriage never took place due to a defect in form or consent.
And the couple are allowed a second marriage? What percentage of these marriage annulments are declared invalid and erroneous when appealed to Rome. Isn't it way over 90%?
Isn't this whole marriage annulment process a subterfuge according to which the RCC allows divorce and remarriage? Simply consider the statistics of about 10 marriage annulments allowed in the USA in 1930, but more than 60,000 marriage annulments (annually) in the USA in recent years.
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« Reply #97 on: March 14, 2012, 05:22:16 PM »

So getting back to my question, why on earth does it matter if a person is "legitimate" or "illegitimate"?  
Why does it matter if a couple (straight or gay) is married legally, putatively, or just not married at all?
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« Reply #98 on: March 14, 2012, 06:37:20 PM »

GiC, I think that analysis is uncharacteristically faulty.

If marriage is a contract, (1) why are the "terms" of the contract prescribed; and (2) why can the contract not be amended or undone by a subsequent contract? Closely related to (2), why, in so many common law jurisdictions, are pre-nuptial agreements of no force?

If only marriage really were contractual! Perhaps then our courts would properly enforce the terms of such a noble agreement.
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« Reply #99 on: March 14, 2012, 09:21:26 PM »

So it is no longer a sin to have sex outside of marriage?  If a marriage is annulled and they were never married, then the children were conceived by having sex outside of marriage correct?
 A declaration of nullity states that a sacramental marriage never took place due to a defect in form or consent.
And the couple are allowed a second marriage? What percentage of these marriage annulments are declared invalid and erroneous when appealed to Rome. Isn't it way over 90%?
Isn't this whole marriage annulment process a subterfuge according to which the RCC allows divorce and remarriage? Simply consider the statistics of about 10 marriage annulments allowed in the USA in 1930, but more than 60,000 marriage annulments (annually) in the USA in recent years.

They are allowed their first sacramental marriage.  The Rota overturns 90% of cases from the US that make it there, how many make it there I don't know.  A subterfuge?  In some cases I suppose, in others I don't think so.  Given the poor catechesis I see going on I am not shocked that there is a lot of defective consent cases.
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« Reply #100 on: March 14, 2012, 11:32:01 PM »


The Parish in question is just up the road from my home. They claim he was not getting along with the staff and suspended him for that..........a week  or so after the incident.  Suspicious.

They couldnt suspend him for the refusal or what he said because he was simply following Catholic doctrine.

Apparently he spent most of the career in Russia. Maybe he grew a backbone there.
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« Reply #101 on: March 14, 2012, 11:49:34 PM »

...His suspension apparently had nothing to do with the Communion fiasco.
...  Suspicious.
Very much so.
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« Reply #102 on: March 15, 2012, 12:01:29 AM »

The priest involved has released a statement.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/priest-removal-from-ministry-was-tied-to-communion-incident/
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« Reply #103 on: March 15, 2012, 01:28:05 AM »

And she did receive Communion anyway.  This whole thing stinks of a setup.
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« Reply #104 on: March 15, 2012, 01:29:24 AM »

I totally agree.
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« Reply #105 on: March 15, 2012, 01:59:10 AM »

And she did receive Communion anyway.  This whole thing stinks of a setup.

Indeed.  And that is, I believe, a problem for both the Orthodox and the Catholics.  It is this spirit that religion is to serve the individual and bend to every twist and turn of political and social ideals, this spirit that infects all of modern society, that is of Satan and seeks to destroy all religion.  It is a curse, a cancer, invading all religious groups that still actually profess belief in anything besides tolerance.  It is this evil that we, all of us, of necessity must fight against in all its forms.
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« Reply #106 on: March 15, 2012, 02:08:34 AM »

Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.
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« Reply #107 on: March 15, 2012, 02:17:40 AM »

Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No.
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« Reply #108 on: March 15, 2012, 02:25:14 AM »

Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

And yet He said: Go and sin no more.  He defended all from condemnation, true.  However, He never said sin is OK.  He also, notably, had the Last Supper in a place with only His disciples.  He taught in the fields and on the hills and at the Temple and in the cities; He gave His all-pure Body and His most precious Blood only to those who believed in Him (I would note, here, that some teach that Judas only betrayed the Lord believing that He would never actually be killed, but would instead usher in the Kingdom of God, on earth).  In the early Church, those who were not members of the Body of Christ - of the Church that Christ founded - could not even SEE the Eucharist, let alone take part of it.  

There is a reason that the Eucharist is known as Holy Communion: it is by the Body and Blood of Christ that we become one communion, one body, one with the Church, and God, and our fellow Christians.  For someone to partake of Holy Communion when they are out of communion with her - when they have separated themselves from her - is not only to be a hypocrite, to profess publicly to be that which you are anything but, it is also to bring upon yourself the condemnation of the God Who will one day soon judge the whole of the human race, who professed a narrow gate and a wide gate, the wide leading unto death and damnation, the narrow to life everlasting, it is to become as a virus that infests a human body, and is rejected by that body, destroyed by that body, such is the fate of those who partake of Holy Communion when they are not in communion.
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« Reply #109 on: March 15, 2012, 02:49:48 AM »

Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No way, no how. Jesus is the CHRIST, not some PC hippie proto-Marxist. We need to give up a lot in order to follow Him. It's tough going, but absolutely necessary.

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple" ≠ accepting everyone unconditionally.

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« Reply #110 on: March 15, 2012, 02:53:22 AM »

So getting back to my question, why on earth does it matter if a person is "legitimate" or "illegitimate"?  
Why does it matter if a couple (straight or gay) is married legally, putatively, or just not married at all?

Ultimately it is for themselves that a couple decides to marry.  It is a sort of official seal that carries real meaning.  There are many legal consequences due to marriage.  Legally (at least in the West), I don't think illegitimacy has any role.  For instance, if I had an illegitimate child, I would still have to pay child support.  

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« Reply #111 on: March 15, 2012, 05:43:15 AM »

So it is no longer a sin to have sex outside of marriage?  If a marriage is annulled and they were never married, then the children were conceived by having sex outside of marriage correct?
 A declaration of nullity states that a sacramental marriage never took place due to a defect in form or consent.
And the couple are allowed a second marriage? What percentage of these marriage annulments are declared invalid and erroneous when appealed to Rome. Isn't it way over 90%?
Isn't this whole marriage annulment process a subterfuge according to which the RCC allows divorce and remarriage? Simply consider the statistics of about 10 marriage annulments allowed in the USA in 1930, but more than 60,000 marriage annulments (annually) in the USA in recent years.

They are allowed their first sacramental marriage.  The Rota overturns 90% of cases from the US that make it there, how many make it there I don't know.  A subterfuge?  In some cases I suppose, in others I don't think so.  Given the poor catechesis I see going on I am not shocked that there is a lot of defective consent cases.
The post Vatican II policy of handing out easy to get marriage annulments can only have long term negative effects in children. Children are told that their parents were never married Sacramentally, and so they have to come to terms with that ugly fact.   Since the Church tribunal requires the parents to divorce,  we should note all of the pain and mental anxiety that children experience as a result of the civil divorce required by the Church before it will grant the annulment. General anxiety, stress,  inability to sleep, seeing the world as a dangerous place,  and lower academic achievement have all been seen in children of divorced parents.  I don;t think any other Church has experienced the horrific explosion in divorce rates as has the Catholic Church in the period from 1930 to the present date. Going from 10 annulments per year to more than 60,000 annulments per year is an increase of more than 600,000 percent. And keep in mind that to get the annulment, you have to get the civil divorce before the Church will consider your application. The civil divorce is a requirement.
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« Reply #112 on: March 15, 2012, 05:45:53 AM »

So getting back to my question, why on earth does it matter if a person is "legitimate" or "illegitimate"?  
Why does it matter if a couple (straight or gay) is married legally, putatively, or just not married at all?

Ultimately it is for themselves that a couple decides to marry.  It is a sort of official seal that carries real meaning.  There are many legal consequences due to marriage.  Legally (at least in the West), I don't think illegitimacy has any role.  For instance, if I had an illegitimate child, I would still have to pay child support.  


There is a point here that it is not the fault of the child as to how he was brought into the world. That is true. However, when a Church tells him that his parents were never Sacramentally married, then that can have a long term negative impact on the psychology and mental health of the child.
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« Reply #113 on: March 15, 2012, 06:07:50 AM »

So getting back to my question, why on earth does it matter if a person is "legitimate" or "illegitimate"?  
Why does it matter if a couple (straight or gay) is married legally, putatively, or just not married at all?

Ultimately it is for themselves that a couple decides to marry.  It is a sort of official seal that carries real meaning.  There are many legal consequences due to marriage.  Legally (at least in the West), I don't think illegitimacy has any role.  For instance, if I had an illegitimate child, I would still have to pay child support.  


There is a point here that it is not the fault of the child as to how he was brought into the world. That is true. However, when a Church tells him that his parents were never Sacramentally married, then that can have a long term negative impact on the psychology and mental health of the child.

I don't disagree that the standard practice of at least the American Catholic Church of handing out annulments for nearly every divorce is a giant abuse and ultimately negative.  But I still don't see how "illegitimacy" has any bearing in modern society. 
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« Reply #114 on: March 15, 2012, 10:18:19 AM »

And she did receive Communion anyway.  This whole thing stinks of a setup.

Hmmm. I dont want to sound paranoid, but we are about to vote on a Gay Marriage referendum here in Maryland in November.
Today's paper showed the woman in question with Gov. O'mallie smiling and shaking hands.

suspicious
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« Reply #115 on: March 15, 2012, 01:30:48 PM »

We are pastoral, not legalistic.  Wink

I've been taught that the Priest is also "The Defender of the Eucharist" and it falls upon him to decide who shall receive and who shall not.

Concerning the priest who specifically taught me that, I'd only seen him refuse someone Communion twice and both times he spoke them to very quietly and what was clearly an apologetic manner.
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« Reply #116 on: March 15, 2012, 01:56:58 PM »

Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No.

Yes.
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« Reply #117 on: March 15, 2012, 01:57:38 PM »

Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No way, no how. Jesus is the CHRIST, not some PC hippie proto-Marxist. We need to give up a lot in order to follow Him. It's tough going, but absolutely necessary.

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple" ≠ accepting everyone unconditionally.



Sure it does.

Am I am on an Orthodox website?

EDIT: Forget it. Yes, I am. We have people worried about a trivial amount of "holy oil" finding its way to the trash thus the earth and others teaching that Jesus' "acceptance" is conditional.

 
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« Reply #118 on: March 15, 2012, 02:06:00 PM »

Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No way, no how. Jesus is the CHRIST, not some PC hippie proto-Marxist. We need to give up a lot in order to follow Him. It's tough going, but absolutely necessary.

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple" ≠ accepting everyone unconditionally.



Sure it does.

Am I am on an Orthodox website?

EDIT: Forget it. Yes, I am. We have people worried about a trivial amount of "holy oil" finding its way to the trash thus the earth and others teaching that Jesus' "acceptance" is conditional.

 

The point is not to trivialize the Faith.  First, let's not take holy water or holy oil "too" seriously.  It's just Holy Oil....go ahead and throw it in the trash, God will still love you.  Next, folks will be throwing icons in the trash because they don't match their decor.

There is the concept of economia, but, that is dependant on the situation.   It's not a blanket law that allows for all manner of disrespect.

Yes, Christ loves everyone equally, and yes, He wishes for the salvation of every soul.....however, if I recall correctly, not everyone will be saved. 

In other words, they will not be accepted.


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« Reply #119 on: March 15, 2012, 02:16:13 PM »

With all due respect, the RC gives annulments and pretends there was no marriage, even when there are children involved and it makes those children illegitimate.  At least the Orthodox are honest enough to admit that there was a marriage and not that anyone at the wedding must have dreamed it.

It does no such thing.  A declaration of nullity is the judgement that states because of a defect in form or intent a valid sacramental marriage did not take place.  It is not saying a legal or natural marriage did not take place.  A declaration of nullity does not make children illegitimate.  

In the Latin rite, the husband and wife are the ministers of the sacrament. But in the Byzantine rite, the priest administers the sacrament. If a couple is married in a Byzantine Catholic wedding, how is there a defect in intent to perform the sacrament? I am pretty sure the priest really meant to marry those people.

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« Reply #120 on: March 15, 2012, 03:01:56 PM »

Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No way, no how. Jesus is the CHRIST, not some PC hippie proto-Marxist. We need to give up a lot in order to follow Him. It's tough going, but absolutely necessary.

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple" ≠ accepting everyone unconditionally.



Sure it does.

Am I am on an Orthodox website?

EDIT: Forget it. Yes, I am. We have people worried about a trivial amount of "holy oil" finding its way to the trash thus the earth and others teaching that Jesus' "acceptance" is conditional.

 

The point is not to trivialize the Faith.  First, let's not take holy water or holy oil "too" seriously.  It's just Holy Oil....go ahead and throw it in the trash, God will still love you.  Next, folks will be throwing icons in the trash because they don't match their decor.

There is the concept of economia, but, that is dependant on the situation.   It's not a blanket law that allows for all manner of disrespect.

Yes, Christ loves everyone equally, and yes, He wishes for the salvation of every soul.....however, if I recall correctly, not everyone will be saved. 

In other words, they will not be accepted.




Your other words are wrong.

It is the very acceptance of Christ, it's nature and quality, which those will find to be damning. Not the lack of Christ's acceptance.


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« Reply #121 on: March 15, 2012, 03:26:12 PM »


It is the very acceptance of Christ, it's nature and quality, which those will find to be damning. Not the lack of Christ's acceptance.


You need to keep in mind the context in which these things are invoked. The poster to whom I replied had asserted that the active Lesbian Buddhist receiving the Eucharist was a good thing because "Christ accepted everyone", not that the "nature and quality" of Christ's acceptance of this woman or any other sinner will be found damning. They're not the same point at all. You are right above, but the other poster is still wrong.
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« Reply #122 on: March 15, 2012, 03:59:14 PM »

Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No way, no how. Jesus is the CHRIST, not some PC hippie proto-Marxist. We need to give up a lot in order to follow Him. It's tough going, but absolutely necessary.

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple" ≠ accepting everyone unconditionally.



Sure it does.

Am I am on an Orthodox website?

EDIT: Forget it. Yes, I am. We have people worried about a trivial amount of "holy oil" finding its way to the trash thus the earth and others teaching that Jesus' "acceptance" is conditional.

 

The point is not to trivialize the Faith.  First, let's not take holy water or holy oil "too" seriously.  It's just Holy Oil....go ahead and throw it in the trash, God will still love you.  Next, folks will be throwing icons in the trash because they don't match their decor.

There is the concept of economia, but, that is dependant on the situation.   It's not a blanket law that allows for all manner of disrespect.

Yes, Christ loves everyone equally, and yes, He wishes for the salvation of every soul.....however, if I recall correctly, not everyone will be saved. 

In other words, they will not be accepted.




Your other words are wrong.

It is the very acceptance of Christ, it's nature and quality, which those will find to be damning. Not the lack of Christ's acceptance.




Ok....I guess it's all in the wording....and I apologize for wording it wrong.

My point was that there are conditions set to ensure the "happily ever after" ending....it's not guaranteed.

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« Reply #123 on: March 15, 2012, 04:19:40 PM »

Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No way, no how. Jesus is the CHRIST, not some PC hippie proto-Marxist. We need to give up a lot in order to follow Him. It's tough going, but absolutely necessary.

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple" ≠ accepting everyone unconditionally.



Sure it does.

Am I am on an Orthodox website?

EDIT: Forget it. Yes, I am. We have people worried about a trivial amount of "holy oil" finding its way to the trash thus the earth and others teaching that Jesus' "acceptance" is conditional.

 

The point is not to trivialize the Faith.  First, let's not take holy water or holy oil "too" seriously.  It's just Holy Oil....go ahead and throw it in the trash, God will still love you.  Next, folks will be throwing icons in the trash because they don't match their decor.

There is the concept of economia, but, that is dependant on the situation.   It's not a blanket law that allows for all manner of disrespect.

Yes, Christ loves everyone equally, and yes, He wishes for the salvation of every soul.....however, if I recall correctly, not everyone will be saved. 

In other words, they will not be accepted.




Your other words are wrong.

It is the very acceptance of Christ, it's nature and quality, which those will find to be damning. Not the lack of Christ's acceptance.




Ok....I guess it's all in the wording....and I apologize for wording it wrong.

My point was that there are conditions set to ensure the "happily ever after" ending....it's not guaranteed.



What are those "conditions" to ensure salvation? Or did you mean there are "not" conditions. I drop words constantly myself.
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« Reply #124 on: March 15, 2012, 04:38:26 PM »

No, I didn't drop any words in this case.

I am not of the Protestant mindset that "if you accept the Lord as your Savior, you are automatically saved!"

If you truly accept the Lord, than you do as He has instructed....I do believe we were given some instructions....I think it all began with those Commandments.

Therefore, I have a feeling that if one builds himself a golden calf, steals his neighbors wife, kills folks, etc....they have not met the conditions.

Plus, there's always the "love thy neighbor" rule to live by, as well.

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." (Acts 16:30-31) ...kind of sounds to me like a condition, of sorts.

This was what I labeled as "conditions"....you may have a different term/word for this.

Hey, it's all good.
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« Reply #125 on: March 15, 2012, 05:44:48 PM »

No, I didn't drop any words in this case.

I am not of the Protestant mindset that "if you accept the Lord as your Savior, you are automatically saved!"

If you truly accept the Lord, than you do as He has instructed....I do believe we were given some instructions....I think it all began with those Commandments.

Therefore, I have a feeling that if one builds himself a golden calf, steals his neighbors wife, kills folks, etc....they have not met the conditions.

Plus, there's always the "love thy neighbor" rule to live by, as well.

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." (Acts 16:30-31) ...kind of sounds to me like a condition, of sorts.

This was what I labeled as "conditions"....you may have a different term/word for this.

Hey, it's all good.

Wow, starting to sound like the Epistle of James with all this "faith without works is dead" stuff!   Wink
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« Reply #126 on: March 15, 2012, 06:47:43 PM »

We are pastoral, not legalistic.  Wink

I've been taught that the Priest is also "The Defender of the Eucharist" and it falls upon him to decide who shall receive and who shall not.

Concerning the priest who specifically taught me that, I'd only seen him refuse someone Communion twice and both times he spoke them to very quietly and what was clearly an apologetic manner.

I've seen people refused communion a good 6 or 7 times. Almost always for not having a recent enough confession. No biggie.

At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion. I am proud of her. She got it right. She was a valued part of the community but until that part of her life comes into concert with the teachings of the Church she belongs to, she refrains from approaching the chalice.

We all have sh.. to work out. God Bless her and God Bless the Church for holding us all to a greater image of what we can be. No one said it would be easy. If you want easy there are other choices out there.
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« Reply #127 on: March 15, 2012, 06:53:48 PM »

We are pastoral, not legalistic.  Wink

I've been taught that the Priest is also "The Defender of the Eucharist" and it falls upon him to decide who shall receive and who shall not.

Concerning the priest who specifically taught me that, I'd only seen him refuse someone Communion twice and both times he spoke them to very quietly and what was clearly an apologetic manner.

I've seen people refused communion a good 6 or 7 times. Almost always for not having a recent enough confession. No biggie.

At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion. I am proud of her. She got it right. She was a valued part of the community but until that part of her life comes into concert with the teachings of the Church she belongs to, she refrains from approaching the chalice.

We all have sh.. to work out. God Bless her and God Bless the Church for holding us all to a greater image of what we can be. No one said it would be easy. If you want easy there are other choices out there.

We all have issues to sort out, but for people who are not gay they can receive communion.  Suppose I look at internet pornography all the time.  As long as I go to confession every Saturday that means I receive communion.  Nobody would think twice about it.  But if a person is gay, it is the end of the world. 
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« Reply #128 on: March 15, 2012, 06:57:33 PM »

How is it the end of the world? They have to live celibate as any non-married person would have to.
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« Reply #129 on: March 15, 2012, 07:39:57 PM »

Here is the full story of the priest who was removed from ministry in the Washington diocese for refusing communion to woman engaged in a lesbian relationship.  The game was up before he began the mass.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/priest-removal-from-ministry-was-tied-to-communion-incident/
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« Reply #130 on: March 15, 2012, 09:35:29 PM »

Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No.

Our Lord accepted people as he found them. He did not leave them that way.
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« Reply #131 on: March 15, 2012, 09:37:02 PM »

He didn't accept that rich guy Roll Eyes
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« Reply #132 on: March 15, 2012, 10:31:52 PM »

Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No.

Our Lord accepted people as he found them. He did not leave them that way.

See...this is not correct, either.  He did not accept how He found them....He worked to make them better than they were when He found them.

If He accepted them the way they already were....then why did He preach and teach....give examples and parables

....so that they would learn HOW they were supposed to live. 

No?

For sure, He did not condemn anyone....but, He did not accept them just the way they were.....He made them better.


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« Reply #133 on: March 15, 2012, 10:36:46 PM »

Good!!   Jesus accepted everyone unconditionally.

No.

Our Lord accepted people as he found them. He did not leave them that way.

See...this is not correct, either.  He did not accept how He found them....He worked to make them better than they were when He found them.

If He accepted them the way they already were....then why did He preach and teach....give examples and parables

....so that they would learn HOW they were supposed to live. 

No?

For sure, He did not condemn anyone....but, He did not accept them just the way they were.....He made them better.




i think there are two different meaning of the word accept going on here

the one Brigidsboy is using means that he takes everyone the way that they are, but strives to make them better, just like the Church accepts all sinner, but is still a hopstial for sinners, and helps to make them into the beings that God intends us to be

in contrast to what you are saying Liza, which accept means just that, that they are perfect and that you needs to be perfect in order for Him to accept them in the way you are meaning it

a small difference, to be sure, but important

(i could just be talking to hear myself talk too, so this might make no sense)
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« Reply #134 on: March 15, 2012, 10:55:49 PM »


You keep talking....and I'll keep listening!  Wink
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« Reply #135 on: March 15, 2012, 10:55:58 PM »

I meant for my remark to be understood as TheMathematician presented it.
Thank You for helping to clarify my position.
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« Reply #136 on: March 15, 2012, 11:16:02 PM »

We are pastoral, not legalistic.  Wink

I've been taught that the Priest is also "The Defender of the Eucharist" and it falls upon him to decide who shall receive and who shall not.

Concerning the priest who specifically taught me that, I'd only seen him refuse someone Communion twice and both times he spoke them to very quietly and what was clearly an apologetic manner.

I've seen people refused communion a good 6 or 7 times. Almost always for not having a recent enough confession. No biggie.

At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion. I am proud of her. She got it right. She was a valued part of the community but until that part of her life comes into concert with the teachings of the Church she belongs to, she refrains from approaching the chalice.

We all have sh.. to work out. God Bless her and God Bless the Church for holding us all to a greater image of what we can be. No one said it would be easy. If you want easy there are other choices out there.

We all have issues to sort out, but for people who are not gay they can receive communion.  Suppose I look at internet pornography all the time.  As long as I go to confession every Saturday that means I receive communion.  Nobody would think twice about it.  But if a person is gay, it is the end of the world. 

Well of course.  We are to be the salt of the earth; gay people are the pepper.
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« Reply #137 on: March 15, 2012, 11:16:02 PM »

Everyone should stop using the word 'accept' with regards to Christ's actions, until they provide their understanding of the word 'accept.'  To do otherwise is to invite a long argument wherein everyone talks past one another.
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« Reply #138 on: March 16, 2012, 02:12:03 PM »

Suppose I look at internet pornography all the time.  As long as I go to confession every Saturday that means I receive communion.  Nobody would think twice about it.  But if a person is gay, it is the end of the world. 

Sorry, but about the second or third time that you confessed the same sin to the same priest, he's going to start withholding absolution and communion since you are treating them as some sort of joke.

As to the end of the world for someone who is "gay", that's wrong as well. Having the attraction is not the sin, as we all know.
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« Reply #139 on: March 16, 2012, 02:19:52 PM »

Our Lord accepted people as he found them. He did not leave them that way.

After telling them to "Go and sin no more."
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« Reply #140 on: March 16, 2012, 04:14:18 PM »

We are pastoral, not legalistic.  Wink

I've been taught that the Priest is also "The Defender of the Eucharist" and it falls upon him to decide who shall receive and who shall not.

Concerning the priest who specifically taught me that, I'd only seen him refuse someone Communion twice and both times he spoke them to very quietly and what was clearly an apologetic manner.

I've seen people refused communion a good 6 or 7 times. Almost always for not having a recent enough confession. No biggie.

At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion. I am proud of her. She got it right. She was a valued part of the community but until that part of her life comes into concert with the teachings of the Church she belongs to, she refrains from approaching the chalice.

We all have sh.. to work out. God Bless her and God Bless the Church for holding us all to a greater image of what we can be. No one said it would be easy. If you want easy there are other choices out there.

We all have issues to sort out, but for people who are not gay they can receive communion.  Suppose I look at internet pornography all the time.  As long as I go to confession every Saturday that means I receive communion.  Nobody would think twice about it.  But if a person is gay, it is the end of the world. 

Well of course.  We are to be the salt of the earth; gay people are the pepper.

Nice! Although, I would have gone with sugar or spice, inclusive or exclusive or there. The one between sugar and spice.

English is stupid. We need another or. How do you pronounce XOR?
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« Reply #141 on: March 16, 2012, 04:20:49 PM »

Suppose I look at internet pornography all the time.  As long as I go to confession every Saturday that means I receive communion.  Nobody would think twice about it.  But if a person is gay, it is the end of the world. 

Sorry, but about the second or third time that you confessed the same sin to the same priest, he's going to start withholding absolution and communion since you are treating them as some sort of joke.


Not necessarily.

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?"

It is certainly possible that someone can commit a sin and at the outset think, "No big deal, I'll confess and be in and out in five minutes". However, it is not the case that someone can master their own weaknesses after two or three stumbles. What a blessing it would be if that were the case!

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« Reply #142 on: March 16, 2012, 04:53:36 PM »

Sorry, but about the second or third time that you confessed the same sin to the same priest, he's going to start withholding absolution and communion since you are treating them as some sort of joke.

That is way too broad a statement. I can attest from direct experience with multiple priests that that is not how it works--perhaps sometimes, but by no means always.
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« Reply #143 on: March 16, 2012, 05:51:48 PM »

Sorry, but about the second or third time that you confessed the same sin to the same priest, he's going to start withholding absolution and communion since you are treating them as some sort of joke.

That is way too broad a statement. I can attest from direct experience with multiple priests that that is not how it works--perhaps sometimes, but by no means always.

Right - but imagine the scandal if a gay person communed. 
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« Reply #144 on: March 16, 2012, 06:06:11 PM »

I would expect a priest to withhold for someone living with their girlfriend. Especially if they admit to doing the horizontal hokie poke.
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« Reply #145 on: March 16, 2012, 06:59:15 PM »

I can't help but hear "common law" and not think of one of my old friends:

"CONSTITUTIONALISM": THE WHITE MAN'S GHOST DANCE - Bob Black

http://www.spunk.org/texts/writers/black/sp001650.html
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« Reply #146 on: March 16, 2012, 07:42:35 PM »

I can't help but hear "common law" and not think of one of my old friends:

"CONSTITUTIONALISM": THE WHITE MAN'S GHOST DANCE - Bob Black

http://www.spunk.org/texts/writers/black/sp001650.html
Those constitutionalists might be few in number, but five of them currently sit on the court. Wink
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« Reply #147 on: March 16, 2012, 09:10:04 PM »

Quote
At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion.
Nice that you assumed she was a lesbian. I would have thought she might have been a banker, or a lawyer or business owner.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 09:11:13 PM by augustin717 » Logged
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« Reply #148 on: March 16, 2012, 10:03:52 PM »

Quote
At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion.
Nice that you assumed she was a lesbian. I would have thought she might have been a banker, or a lawyer or business owner.

It was not very hard to figure out.. you were not there...
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« Reply #149 on: March 16, 2012, 10:18:28 PM »

Quote
At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion.
Nice that you assumed she was a lesbian. I would have thought she might have been a banker, or a lawyer or business owner.

It was not very hard to figure out.. you were not there...

In either event, simply being homosexual is not a sin. The sin would in homosexual activities, just as it would be in heterosexual activities such as fornication.

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« Reply #150 on: March 16, 2012, 10:19:30 PM »

Quote
At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion.
Nice that you assumed she was a lesbian. I would have thought she might have been a banker, or a lawyer or business owner.

It was not very hard to figure out.. you were not there...

Was she making out with a woman?  Do you normally spend your time during Liturgy contemplating the sexual activities of those around you?  I would make sure to mention that at your next confession.
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« Reply #151 on: March 16, 2012, 10:53:51 PM »

GIC and Sauran--Unless you can see some relevance to the subject of this thread, please cease and desist your mano a mano discussion or pursue it elsewhere. If you choose the latter course, I would be more than happy to split the topic and move it to elsewhere. Continuing your separate discussion before you get back to me will trigger the second option, along with a warning for both of you for going off topic. Thanks, Second Chance
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 10:54:34 PM by Second Chance » Logged

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« Reply #152 on: March 17, 2012, 12:29:35 PM »

Quote
At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion.
Nice that you assumed she was a lesbian. I would have thought she might have been a banker, or a lawyer or business owner.

It was not very hard to figure out.. you were not there...

Was she making out with a woman?  Do you normally spend your time during Liturgy contemplating the sexual activities of those around you?  I would make sure to mention that at your next confession.

I sat behind this person regularly for several years. I used to joke with her that I was worshiping the back of her head.

See to your own confession son. I'm doing fine.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 12:30:51 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #153 on: March 17, 2012, 03:38:18 PM »

Per GIC's request, the discussion on legal aspects has been split off and move to:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43652.0.html

Thanks, Second Chance
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« Reply #154 on: March 17, 2012, 04:01:58 PM »

See to your own confession son. I'm doing fine.

This strikes me as a very dangerous thing to believe.

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« Reply #155 on: March 17, 2012, 09:20:39 PM »

See to your own confession son. I'm doing fine.

This strikes me as a very dangerous thing to believe.



Wow..The chum is in the water...

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« Reply #156 on: March 17, 2012, 09:23:21 PM »

See to your own confession son. I'm doing fine.

This strikes me as a very dangerous thing to believe.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #157 on: March 17, 2012, 09:28:49 PM »

See to your own confession son. I'm doing fine.

This strikes me as a very dangerous thing to believe.



Wow..The chum is in the water...

And a chump is in the thread. Hey-o!

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« Reply #158 on: March 17, 2012, 09:38:23 PM »

See to your own confession son. I'm doing fine.

This strikes me as a very dangerous thing to believe.



Wow..The chum is in the water...

And a chump is in the thread. Hey-o!



Petulant much?
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« Reply #159 on: March 17, 2012, 10:49:14 PM »

Quote
At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion.
Nice that you assumed she was a lesbian. I would have thought she might have been a banker, or a lawyer or business owner.

It was not very hard to figure out.. you were not there...

Was she making out with a woman?  Do you normally spend your time during Liturgy contemplating the sexual activities of those around you?  I would make sure to mention that at your next confession.

I sat behind this person regularly for several years. I used to joke with her that I was worshiping the back of her head.

See to your own confession son. I'm doing fine.

So sitting behind a person informs you of their sexuality?  You should go and sit behind every Republican in Congress, that way we can out half of them.
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« Reply #160 on: March 22, 2012, 08:45:17 AM »

Suppose I look at internet pornography all the time.  As long as I go to confession every Saturday that means I receive communion.  Nobody would think twice about it.  But if a person is gay, it is the end of the world. 

Sorry, but about the second or third time that you confessed the same sin to the same priest, he's going to start withholding absolution and communion since you are treating them as some sort of joke.


Not necessarily.

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?"

It is certainly possible that someone can commit a sin and at the outset think, "No big deal, I'll confess and be in and out in five minutes". However, it is not the case that someone can master their own weaknesses after two or three stumbles. What a blessing it would be if that were the case!


There's a huge shift in forgiving a brother who has wronged you and showing a priest that you are not repenting of the sin you keep embracing.

The subject change was duly noted.
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« Reply #161 on: March 22, 2012, 08:52:18 AM »

Suppose I look at internet pornography all the time.  As long as I go to confession every Saturday that means I receive communion.  Nobody would think twice about it.  But if a person is gay, it is the end of the world. 

Sorry, but about the second or third time that you confessed the same sin to the same priest, he's going to start withholding absolution and communion since you are treating them as some sort of joke.


Not necessarily.

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?"

It is certainly possible that someone can commit a sin and at the outset think, "No big deal, I'll confess and be in and out in five minutes". However, it is not the case that someone can master their own weaknesses after two or three stumbles. What a blessing it would be if that were the case!


There's a huge shift in forgiving a brother who has wronged you and showing a priest that you are not repenting of the sin you keep embracing.

The subject change was duly noted.

There is a huge shift in embracing a sin and succumbing to temptation because of one's weakness. How blessed you are to have only sinned three times.

Your failure to appreciate this distinction was "duly noted".

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« Reply #162 on: March 22, 2012, 10:55:24 AM »

To me, saying, "Meh, I'll just confess later" and doing the sin is nowhere close to repentance. Thats taking advantage of a system. I think that God would not forgive you in that attitude.

Also, if the priest denies communion because of someone living in sin, that is his right.

PP
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« Reply #163 on: March 22, 2012, 11:00:25 AM »

Or one could just go to a jurisdiction where confession is sort of unheard of. One of the luxuries of being Orthodox in the US.
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« Reply #164 on: March 22, 2012, 11:03:00 AM »

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At my old Parish I would usually sit behind a nice women whom I believe to be Lesbian. She would come to liturgy regularly, say the prayers and hear the preaching but never went up for communion.
Nice that you assumed she was a lesbian. I would have thought she might have been a banker, or a lawyer or business owner.

It was not very hard to figure out.. you were not there...

Was she making out with a woman?  Do you normally spend your time during Liturgy contemplating the sexual activities of those around you?  I would make sure to mention that at your next confession.

I sat behind this person regularly for several years. I used to joke with her that I was worshiping the back of her head.

See to your own confession son. I'm doing fine.

So sitting behind a person informs you of their sexuality?  You should go and sit behind every Republican in Congress, that way we can out half of them.

 If you have regular and repeated contact with someone over the course of several years, even just as an acquaintance, you often get to know them.

You don't get out  much do you?
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« Reply #165 on: March 22, 2012, 11:33:41 AM »

Folks--We are getting off the subject yet again. I am going to call for a recess until next Monday in order for y'all to decide whether you wish to continue to veer off topic. Thanks, Second Chance
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« Reply #166 on: March 22, 2012, 01:22:49 PM »

To me, saying, "Meh, I'll just confess later" and doing the sin is nowhere close to repentance. Thats taking advantage of a system. I think that God would not forgive you in that attitude.

Also, if the priest denies communion because of someone living in sin, that is his right.

PP

So if you have ever said "Meh, I'll just confess later" you are forever unable to really be repentant for that action?  God will never, ever, forgive that sin?  Even if, later, you actually do come to repentance?  I also don't know why you seem to suggest that repentance has anything to do with what you are thinking BEFORE a sin; it has everything to do with what you are thinking AFTER one.
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« Reply #167 on: March 26, 2012, 08:46:21 AM »

Thread is unlocked. Please stay on topic. Second Chance
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« Reply #168 on: March 27, 2012, 10:19:38 AM »

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So if you have ever said "Meh, I'll just confess later" you are forever unable to really be repentant for that action?
No, Im not saying that, but what I am saying is that it puts confession in the wrong attitude IMO. Being repentant is turning to Christ. Its out of conviction and penetence, and not because "your fun time" is up.

Saying "I'll just confess it later" is no different than saying, "Asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission".

PP
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« Reply #169 on: March 27, 2012, 01:41:04 PM »

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So if you have ever said "Meh, I'll just confess later" you are forever unable to really be repentant for that action?
No, Im not saying that, but what I am saying is that it puts confession in the wrong attitude IMO. Being repentant is turning to Christ. Its out of conviction and penetence, and not because "your fun time" is up.

Saying "I'll just confess it later" is no different than saying, "Asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission".

PP

So, is this a proper way of understanding you: Using confession like an input-output table is to not really confess?
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« Reply #170 on: March 28, 2012, 02:05:15 PM »

So if you have ever said "Meh, I'll just confess later" you are forever unable to really be repentant for that action?  God will never, ever, forgive that sin?

I think you then have two sins to confess! Although I think the Church teachings indicate that you'd gone from the "involuntary sin" (during which you weren't really thinking about it) to a very "voluntary sin" where you said to yourself, "I don't care what Christ has taught us through the Church, I wanna do it!"
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« Reply #171 on: March 28, 2012, 03:27:50 PM »

Quote
So if you have ever said "Meh, I'll just confess later" you are forever unable to really be repentant for that action?
No, Im not saying that, but what I am saying is that it puts confession in the wrong attitude IMO. Being repentant is turning to Christ. Its out of conviction and penetence, and not because "your fun time" is up.

Saying "I'll just confess it later" is no different than saying, "Asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission".

PP

So, is this a proper way of understanding you: Using confession like an input-output table is to not really confess?
No, but using confession in that manner, to give you a license to do whatever you want as long as you confess is not wise.

"I cant steal that, as long as I confess im fine!" is really foolish, and I think, you're taking advantage of Gods forgiveness. Another example: If you knew your wife would forgive you completely, and all you had to do is ask her forgiveness, would you cheat on her to satisfy your lusts?

PP
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« Reply #172 on: March 28, 2012, 05:56:35 PM »

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No, but using confession in that manner, to give you a license to do whatever you want as long as you confess is not wise.

"I cant steal that, as long as I confess im fine!" is really foolish, and I think, you're taking advantage of Gods forgiveness. Another example: If you knew your wife would forgive you completely, and all you had to do is ask her forgiveness, would you cheat on her to satisfy your lusts?

Indeed. The icon of the Mother of God Unexpected Joy has something to say about this very thing.
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« Reply #173 on: March 28, 2012, 09:47:30 PM »

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So if you have ever said "Meh, I'll just confess later" you are forever unable to really be repentant for that action?
No, Im not saying that, but what I am saying is that it puts confession in the wrong attitude IMO. Being repentant is turning to Christ. Its out of conviction and penetence, and not because "your fun time" is up.

Saying "I'll just confess it later" is no different than saying, "Asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission".

PP

So, is this a proper way of understanding you: Using confession like an input-output table is to not really confess?
No, but using confession in that manner, to give you a license to do whatever you want as long as you confess is not wise.

"I cant steal that, as long as I confess im fine!" is really foolish, and I think, you're taking advantage of Gods forgiveness. Another example: If you knew your wife would forgive you completely, and all you had to do is ask her forgiveness, would you cheat on her to satisfy your lusts?

PP
i know the RCCs have a term for this, it is called presumption, which is another sin that needs confessing in the rcc at least
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« Reply #174 on: March 29, 2012, 11:03:48 AM »

I believe that if someone commits sin simply because they know they can confess it later and "be ok" is not serious about their sin. Its almost like using confession as a get out of jail free card.

PP
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« Reply #175 on: March 30, 2012, 08:32:15 AM »

Quote
So if you have ever said "Meh, I'll just confess later" you are forever unable to really be repentant for that action?
No, Im not saying that, but what I am saying is that it puts confession in the wrong attitude IMO. Being repentant is turning to Christ. Its out of conviction and penetence, and not because "your fun time" is up.

Saying "I'll just confess it later" is no different than saying, "Asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission".

PP

So, is this a proper way of understanding you: Using confession like an input-output table is to not really confess?
No, but using confession in that manner, to give you a license to do whatever you want as long as you confess is not wise.

"I cant steal that, as long as I confess im fine!" is really foolish, and I think, you're taking advantage of Gods forgiveness. Another example: If you knew your wife would forgive you completely, and all you had to do is ask her forgiveness, would you cheat on her to satisfy your lusts?

PP


A husband returns from a business trip:

Scenario 1 - “Honey we need to talk. I know I shouldn’t have but I went out and ended up getting drunk with the guys. There was a woman there. She tempted me. I wasn’t thinking. I sinned against you and God. Please forgive me. That is not who I am or who I want to be.”

Scenario 2 – “Honey we need to talk. I knew I shouldn’t but I went out and got drunk with the guys anyway. There was a woman there. She tempted me. I thought about it and knowing you would forgive me I cheated on you. So forgive me. This is just who I am and obviously who I want to be.”
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« Reply #176 on: March 30, 2012, 10:50:03 AM »

Quote
So if you have ever said "Meh, I'll just confess later" you are forever unable to really be repentant for that action?
No, Im not saying that, but what I am saying is that it puts confession in the wrong attitude IMO. Being repentant is turning to Christ. Its out of conviction and penetence, and not because "your fun time" is up.

Saying "I'll just confess it later" is no different than saying, "Asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission".

PP

So, is this a proper way of understanding you: Using confession like an input-output table is to not really confess?
No, but using confession in that manner, to give you a license to do whatever you want as long as you confess is not wise.

"I cant steal that, as long as I confess im fine!" is really foolish, and I think, you're taking advantage of Gods forgiveness. Another example: If you knew your wife would forgive you completely, and all you had to do is ask her forgiveness, would you cheat on her to satisfy your lusts?

PP


A husband returns from a business trip:

Scenario 1 - “Honey we need to talk. I know I shouldn’t have but I went out and ended up getting drunk with the guys. There was a woman there. She tempted me. I wasn’t thinking. I sinned against you and God. Please forgive me. That is not who I am or who I want to be.”

Scenario 2 – “Honey we need to talk. I knew I shouldn’t but I went out and got drunk with the guys anyway. There was a woman there. She tempted me. I thought about it and knowing you would forgive me I cheated on you. So forgive me. This is just who I am and obviously who I want to be.”

nice example.

PP
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