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Author Topic: Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended  (Read 6646 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 12, 2012, 04:22:19 PM »


Priest who denied communion to lesbian suspended

By msnbc.com

A Maryland priest who denied communion to a lesbian at her mother's funeral has been placed on leave, according to the Roman Catholic archdiocese.

A letter from an archdiocese official said that the Rev. Marcel Guarnizo was placed on leave for engaging in intimidating behavior, according to NBCWashington.com. The archdiocese had previously apologized for Guarnizo’s behavior.


For the rest of the article:  http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/12/10652416-priest-who-denied-communion-to-lesbian-suspended


The only part I disagree with that priest is when he excused himself from the burial at the cemetery.
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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2012, 04:29:21 PM »

The commentary in the video was quite offensively undergraduate.
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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2012, 04:30:05 PM »

Link:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/12/priest-who-allegedly-denied-communion-to-lesbian-placed-on-leave/?hpt=us_c2

Any comments?
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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2012, 04:40:59 PM »

His suspension apparently had nothing to do with the Communion fiasco.
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2012, 04:43:15 PM »

The priest should have gone to the funeral at the cemetery.  As for not giving communion to the woman, he was doing his job and if that is the reason they dumped him (despite the talking head saying that it was for "actions throughout the week") then it's a sign of a deeper rot in that archdiocese.

This part I found especially disturbing:

Quote
“When questions arise about whether or not an individual should present themselves for communion, it is not the policy of the Archdiocese of Washington to publicly reprimand the person,” the statement said. “Any issues regarding the suitability of an individual to receive communion should be addressed by the priest with that person in a private, pastoral setting.”

If someone is going to go up for communion, knowing that they cannot take it, when is the priest supposed to tell them no to take communion?  I sounded from what the priest said that he did everything correctly.  It is his duty to tell someone who is not prepared that they cannot commune.  To commune them is such a situation could risk damnation for both parties.
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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2012, 04:47:34 PM »

There is a difference between Catholic and Orthodox approach to this.  A Catholic priest cannot deny someone Communion unless the person is obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and that person has been admonished by the priest privately first.  So while a declared practicing lesbian should know better than to present themselves for Communion, from the Catholic perspective, unless the priest knew this as a fact from her own lips beforehand, not secondhand, he had no right to deny her.
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2012, 05:01:59 PM »

There is a difference between Catholic and Orthodox approach to this.  A Catholic priest cannot deny someone Communion unless the person is obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and that person has been admonished by the priest privately first.  So while a declared practicing lesbian should know better than to present themselves for Communion, from the Catholic perspective, unless the priest knew this as a fact from her own lips beforehand, not secondhand, he had no right to deny her.

Cardinal George Pell would disagree. More than once, he has refused to give communion to declared and unrepentant homosexuals, whether he has "admonished them privately" or not. And he's not the only one. All power to him and those like him, I say.
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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2012, 05:02:46 PM »

We don't know the details....but, lets just say that he "knew" that the deceased woman's daughter was a lesbian....and here she is before him, with her partner....and approaches for communion.  Is he just supposed to give it to her?

This is just another reason to have people go to Holy Confession before going to Holy Communion.  It would have given the priest a chance to "council her in private".

This way the priest also knows who is who, and who is approaching the Holy Gifts.  

My parish tradition is we Confess prior to going to Holy Communion.  This way when our priest notices an "unknown" face approaching, he quietly speaks to them, lifts the chalice for them to kiss, and has them move on.  Nobody except the person immediately behind them realizes the person didn't receive the Holy Gifts.

I went to an RC funeral last year (coworkers family member)....and for their Communion most of my coworkers went up too.  I know some are Catholic...but, then there was this one Baptist man...who happily went up and with a smirk on his face coming back up the aisle munching on the wafer...with a huge grin.  "Good cookie".

I know that priest didn't know who these people were.  But, he did in fact, give the Holy Gifts to a "non-believer".  This man thought it was all a joke.  While not RC, it still hurt me to see it happen.

So, I believe the priest has every right to withhold Communion.  It's his responsibility to safeguard the Gifts.

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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2012, 05:12:19 PM »

There is a difference between Catholic and Orthodox approach to this.  A Catholic priest cannot deny someone Communion unless the person is obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and that person has been admonished by the priest privately first.  So while a declared practicing lesbian should know better than to present themselves for Communion, from the Catholic perspective, unless the priest knew this as a fact from her own lips beforehand, not secondhand, he had no right to deny her.

Cardinal George Pell would disagree. More than once, he has refused to give communion to declared and unrepentant homosexuals, whether he has "admonished them privately" or not. And he's not the only one. All power to him and those like him, I say.

But a bishop can make that call a priest cannot, he must follow protocol.
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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2012, 05:23:12 PM »

We don't know the details....but, lets just say that he "knew" that the deceased woman's daughter was a lesbian....and here she is before him, with her partner....and approaches for communion.  Is he just supposed to give it to her?
If he has not spoken to her privately beforehand, Yes.

  
My parish tradition is we Confess prior to going to Holy Communion.  This way when our priest notices an "unknown" face approaching, he quietly speaks to them, lifts the chalice for them to kiss, and has them move on.  Nobody except the person immediately behind them realizes the person didn't receive the Holy Gifts.
But this is a difference between Catholic and Orthodox practice.  The Catholic Church presumes worthiness unless proven otherwise, the communicant being the one held responsible, the Orthodox Church presumes unworthiness unless proven otherwise the priest being the one held responsible.

I went to an RC funeral last year (coworkers family member)....and for their Communion most of my coworkers went up too.  I know some are Catholic...but, then there was this one Baptist man...who happily went up and with a smirk on his face coming back up the aisle munching on the wafer...with a huge grin.  "Good cookie".

I know that priest didn't know who these people were.  But, he did in fact, give the Holy Gifts to a "non-believer".  This man thought it was all a joke.  While not RC, it still hurt me to see it happen.
In these cases the priest is supposed to make an announcement that only properly prepared Catholics are to receive.
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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2012, 05:56:32 PM »

We don't know the details....but, lets just say that he "knew" that the deceased woman's daughter was a lesbian....and here she is before him, with her partner....and approaches for communion.  Is he just supposed to give it to her?
If he has not spoken to her privately beforehand, Yes.


So, the priest can never decline to give the Holy Gifts to someone who approaches, unless he's spoken to them first (in private)?


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« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2012, 06:02:46 PM »

In my time in the RCC, the only time a priest ever told anyone to not come up for communion was a general announcement made at the Easter and Christmas masses (which were always packed full of people who never came at any other times of the year) that those who had not been to confession for some time should not present themselves for communion. It didn't stop anyone from receiving anyway, from what I can remember.

The Latin approach to communion makes very little sense to me.
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« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2012, 06:07:03 PM »

In my time in the RCC, the only time a priest ever told anyone to not come up for communion was a general announcement made at the Easter and Christmas masses (which were always packed full of people who never came at any other times of the year) that those who had not been to confession for some time should not present themselves for communion. It didn't stop anyone from receiving anyway, from what I can remember.

The Latin approach to communion makes very little sense to me.
yeah it's unacceptable, outrageous, blasphemous and it also attracts and stirs God's wrath (not the  heretical, Latin sort of wrath, beware)  if thorough investigations are not conducted into suspicious communicants'  FB pages, discussion forums, internet use in general and such. What a scandal!
I'm saying all this bc that sort of investigation happened to a friend of mine in an English speaking Orthodox parish. Alas he was found lacking in godly complementarian manliness  and Chicago was spared the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. It also open a couple of other people's eyes and shattered any illusion they had about that place.
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« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2012, 06:13:35 PM »


LOL!

I'm certain the person doesn't need to be investigated, however, I think a heartfelt confession wouldn't hurt.

Afterall, aren't' we taught that the Sacraments are a privilege and not a right?
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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2012, 06:19:00 PM »


LOL!

I'm certain the person doesn't need to be investigated, however, I think a heartfelt confession wouldn't hurt.

Afterall, aren't' we taught that the Sacraments are a privilege and not a right?

You are right in theory. In practice though, and for reasons that have little to do with Christianity people perceived to be gay will suffer closer scrutiny in than most other categories of sinners, in most, I would say, Orthodox settings.
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« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2012, 06:25:04 PM »


LOL!

I'm certain the person doesn't need to be investigated, however, I think a heartfelt confession wouldn't hurt.

Afterall, aren't' we taught that the Sacraments are a privilege and not a right?

You are right in theory. In practice though, and for reasons that have little to do with Christianity people perceived to be gay will suffer closer scrutiny in than most other categories of sinners, in most, I would say, Orthodox settings.

But isn't that what gays do? Scrutiny? It's like the opposite of mutiny, when like all the sailors get along. And we know sailor is just seamen for gay.
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« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2012, 06:31:07 PM »


LOL!

I'm certain the person doesn't need to be investigated, however, I think a heartfelt confession wouldn't hurt.

Afterall, aren't' we taught that the Sacraments are a privilege and not a right?

You are right in theory. In practice though, and for reasons that have little to do with Christianity people perceived to be gay will suffer closer scrutiny in than most other categories of sinners, in most, I would say, Orthodox settings.

But isn't that what gays do? Scrutiny? It's like the opposite of mutiny, when like all the sailors get along. And we know sailor is just seamen for gay.

This is seriously the gayest sentence I've ever seen on OC.net. I'm pretty sure I have a bottle of beer stashed away for just such an occasion.
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« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2012, 06:31:15 PM »

There is a difference between Catholic and Orthodox approach to this.  A Catholic priest cannot deny someone Communion unless the person is obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and that person has been admonished by the priest privately first.  So while a declared practicing lesbian should know better than to present themselves for Communion, from the Catholic perspective, unless the priest knew this as a fact from her own lips beforehand, not secondhand, he had no right to deny her.

According to a person called John Shore, Ms Johnson had told the priest of her status as a lesbian woman in a relationship (she introduced her partner to him) before the service. Here is his report:

"Fr. Marcel was made aware that Barbara is gay when she and her partner of nineteen years met with him that morning well before the service began. It was his ecclesiastic responsibility to at that meeting offer to take Barbara’s confession and then grant her absolution; this would have allowed him to then in good conscience later offer her communion. And Barbara would have certainly been pleased to do a confession with Fr. Guarnizo.

“Obviously, I don’t think being gay is a sin,” she told me. “But this wasn’t about me. This was about about my wonderful mother having the beautiful funeral that she deserved. So yes, I would have let Father Marcel grant me absolution.”

But Fr. Marcel failed to offer Barbara that rite.
...
I spoke with Barbara on the phone the day before this story hit. She is an intelligent, kind, sensitive woman. She was extremely close to her mother, who fully accepted and loved Barbara’s partner as if she were another daughter."

http://johnshore.com/2012/02/29/father-no-communion-for-you-not-the-whole-story/

What intrigued me in this story is the expectation that absolution would be given for..what? Is he expected to give absolution to every sinner, no matter how unrepentant he is?
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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2012, 06:35:07 PM »

Another funny thing here is to see all these people-well, some of them, maybe- that on other threads pontificate on how RC sacraments are graceless, getting all worried now about what a blasphemy could have taken place if that woman had communed.
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2012, 06:36:42 PM »


LOL!

I'm certain the person doesn't need to be investigated, however, I think a heartfelt confession wouldn't hurt.

Afterall, aren't' we taught that the Sacraments are a privilege and not a right?

You are right in theory. In practice though, and for reasons that have little to do with Christianity people perceived to be gay will suffer closer scrutiny in than most other categories of sinners, in most, I would say, Orthodox settings.

In practice, I know of parishes where communion is withheld for all kinds of other canonical reasons. Indeed, it is easier to discern the reasons for most everything other than homosexual conduct. By the way, what does a "apathetic, ecumenist, indifferent, traditionalist, communist, philetist, accidental Orthodox (you forgot "nominal")" person such as yourself know about this things anyway?  Wink
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« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2012, 06:37:36 PM »

Of course the thing that made it into the news is that she is a lesbian and not that she herself has posted all over the internet that she (thinks she is anyway) Buddhist. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2012, 06:40:48 PM »


LOL!

I'm certain the person doesn't need to be investigated, however, I think a heartfelt confession wouldn't hurt.

Afterall, aren't' we taught that the Sacraments are a privilege and not a right?

You are right in theory. In practice though, and for reasons that have little to do with Christianity people perceived to be gay will suffer closer scrutiny in than most other categories of sinners, in most, I would say, Orthodox settings.

In practice, I know of parishes where communion is withheld for all kinds of other canonical reasons. Indeed, it is easier to discern the reasons for most everything other than homosexual conduct. By the way, what does a "apathetic, ecumenist, indifferent, traditionalist, communist, philetist, accidental Orthodox (you forgot "nominal")" person such as yourself know about this things anyway?  Wink
It still provides me amusement. You know, a poor man's way of killing time. The bourgeois go on spiritual retreats.
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« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2012, 06:41:35 PM »

Of course the thing that made it into the news is that she is a lesbian and not that she herself has posted all over the internet that she (thinks she is anyway) Buddhist. Roll Eyes

Surprise!
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« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2012, 06:56:13 PM »


LOL!

I'm certain the person doesn't need to be investigated, however, I think a heartfelt confession wouldn't hurt.

Afterall, aren't' we taught that the Sacraments are a privilege and not a right?

You are right in theory. In practice though, and for reasons that have little to do with Christianity people perceived to be gay will suffer closer scrutiny in than most other categories of sinners, in most, I would say, Orthodox settings.

In practice, I know of parishes where communion is withheld for all kinds of other canonical reasons. Indeed, it is easier to discern the reasons for most everything other than homosexual conduct. By the way, what does a "apathetic, ecumenist, indifferent, traditionalist, communist, philetist, accidental Orthodox (you forgot "nominal")" person such as yourself know about this things anyway?  Wink
It still provides me amusement. You know, a poor man's way of killing time. The bourgeois go on spiritual retreats.

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My mothers' ancestors emigrated from Bucharest to Veliko Trnovo so I hope you excuse my boldness in calling you cousin. And, for saying the following: I pray that underneath that flippant attitude there is some substance. I pray that you have the ember in you that will once again flare up into flame if you let the Holy Spirit in. After all, what is amusement if put against great joy and peace?
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« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2012, 07:06:21 PM »

So while a declared practicing lesbian should know better than to present themselves for Communion

This singular "they" thing has gone way too far, when we can't even refer to a hypothetical lesbian as "she."
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« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2012, 07:36:35 PM »

So while a declared practicing lesbian should know better than to present themselves for Communion

This singular "they" thing has gone way too far, when we can't even refer to a hypothetical lesbian as "she."

Calm yourself, it was a grammatical error not an agenda.
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« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2012, 07:37:50 PM »

Of course the thing that made it into the news is that she is a lesbian and not that she herself has posted all over the internet that she (thinks she is anyway) Buddhist. Roll Eyes
In that case he was perfectly within his right to refuse her Communion.
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« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2012, 07:53:04 PM »

So while a declared practicing lesbian should know better than to present themselves for Communion

This singular "they" thing has gone way too far, when we can't even refer to a hypothetical lesbian as "she."

Calm yourself, it was a grammatical error not an agenda.



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« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2012, 07:55:06 PM »

Of course the thing that made it into the news is that she is a lesbian and not that she herself has posted all over the internet that she (thinks she is anyway) Buddhist. Roll Eyes
In that case he was perfectly within his right to refuse her Communion.

Wonderful. So she's refused because she's an apostate, not unrepentant. Scholasticism at its finest. Gimme a break, Dcn Lance!  Tongue Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2012, 08:18:08 PM »

Of course the thing that made it into the news is that she is a lesbian and not that she herself has posted all over the internet that she (thinks she is anyway) Buddhist. Roll Eyes
In that case he was perfectly within his right to refuse her Communion.

Wonderful. So she's refused because she's an apostate, not unrepentant. Scholasticism at its finest. Gimme a break, Dcn Lance!  Tongue Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

No Scholasticism involved at all.  If a person is proclaiming themselves an apsotate that is one thing.  One needs a private conversation to determine if a person is in a state of sin and unrepentant.  The Communion line is not the place for the first inquiry or admonishment.

I would also disagree with the article, that she should have been offered Confession and absolution before Mass so she could commune.  In order for absolution to be given the priest would have to have had some evidence that she meant to cease the sin, which I doubt she would have given.   For example, divorced and remarried people are expected to seperate from the new spouse in order to be readmitted.  This lady would have been simply going through the motions in order to get her way, as evidenced by her further comments.
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« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2012, 08:33:52 PM »

Of course the thing that made it into the news is that she is a lesbian and not that she herself has posted all over the internet that she (thinks she is anyway) Buddhist. Roll Eyes
In that case he was perfectly within his right to refuse her Communion.
But there is no evidence he knew about her Buddhist "proclivities" beforehand.
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« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2012, 08:42:59 PM »

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In order for absolution to be given the priest would have to have had some evidence that she meant to cease the sin, which I doubt she would have given.   

QED. Hoist by your own petard, Dcn Lance.
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« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2012, 08:52:37 PM »

...  As for not giving communion to the woman, he was doing his job and if that is the reason they dumped him ...then it's a sign of a deeper rot in that archdiocese.
...If someone is going to go up for communion, knowing that they cannot take it, when is the priest supposed to tell them no to take communion?  I sounded from what the priest said that he did everything correctly.  It is his duty to tell someone who is not prepared that they cannot commune.  To commune them is such a situation could risk damnation for both parties.
I agree.
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« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2012, 08:57:37 PM »

Of course the thing that made it into the news is that she is a lesbian and not that she herself has posted all over the internet that she (thinks she is anyway) Buddhist. Roll Eyes
In that case he was perfectly within his right to refuse her Communion.

Wonderful. So she's refused because she's an apostate, not unrepentant. Scholasticism at its finest. Gimme a break, Dcn Lance!  Tongue Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

No Scholasticism involved at all.  If a person is proclaiming themselves an apsotate that is one thing.  One needs a private conversation to determine if a person is in a state of sin and unrepentant.  The Communion line is not the place for the first inquiry or admonishment.

I disagree with the deacon. If the news reports that I read are correct, she proclaims herself to be a Buddhist, and she made the priest aware that she was  living with her lesbian partner.
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« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2012, 09:11:27 PM »

Another funny thing here is to see all these people-well, some of them, maybe- that on other threads pontificate on how RC sacraments are graceless, getting all worried now about what a blasphemy could have taken place if that woman had communed.

I was kind of thinking "what difference does it make?"  How can their be any problem if there is no Grace in the RC sacraments?  Seems like much to do about nothing.
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« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2012, 09:11:42 PM »

LBK

You are failing to distinguish between a priest to refusing Communion to one whom he has postively identified as obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and refusing it based on a hunch or worse rumor.

Refusing Communion in the Catholic Church is a big deal because by doing so the priest is proclaiming the person in a state of mortal sin and/or excommunication.  In the Orthodox Church one can be refused simply because the priest doesn't know you.
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« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2012, 09:18:17 PM »

Of course the thing that made it into the news is that she is a lesbian and not that she herself has posted all over the internet that she (thinks she is anyway) Buddhist. Roll Eyes
In that case he was perfectly within his right to refuse her Communion.

Wonderful. So she's refused because she's an apostate, not unrepentant. Scholasticism at its finest. Gimme a break, Dcn Lance!  Tongue Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

No Scholasticism involved at all.  If a person is proclaiming themselves an apsotate that is one thing.  One needs a private conversation to determine if a person is in a state of sin and unrepentant.  The Communion line is not the place for the first inquiry or admonishment.

I disagree with the deacon. If the news reports that I read are correct, she proclaims herself to be a Buddhist, and she made the priest aware that she was  living with her lesbian partner.

And if true he should have informed then and there not to approach for Communion, not wait until Communion time.   
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« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2012, 09:22:01 PM »

LBK

You are failing to distinguish between a priest to refusing Communion to one whom he has postively identified as obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and refusing it based on a hunch or worse rumor.

Refusing Communion in the Catholic Church is a big deal because by doing so the priest is proclaiming the person in a state of mortal sin and/or excommunication.  In the Orthodox Church one can be refused simply because the priest doesn't know you.

Unless everyone knows you, and then $*i7 be gettins real.
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« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2012, 09:25:58 PM »

LBK

You are failing to distinguish between a priest to refusing Communion to one whom he has postively identified as obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and refusing it based on a hunch or worse rumor.

Refusing Communion in the Catholic Church is a big deal because by doing so the priest is proclaiming the person in a state of mortal sin and/or excommunication.  In the Orthodox Church one can be refused simply because the priest doesn't know you.

Rubbish. The guardian of the chalice, be he bishop, or priest obedient to his bishop, be he Orthodox or RC/EC, has the responsibility to ensure whoever approaches the chalice has prepared himself or herself properly. This includes confession and absolution, which can only be given by a priest or bishop where someone has expressed contrition and repentance for their sins, irrespective of the nature of their sins.

As you should know, we Orthodox don't distinguish between "venial" and "mortal" sins. Repentance is repentance. There is no evidence that this homosexual woman has repented from her sin, be it her engaging in homosexual acts, or her apostasy. It is repentance which allows us, Orthodox and Roman/Eastern Catholic alike, to approach the chalice.

Or am I mistaken about the RC/EC?
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« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2012, 09:26:45 PM »

Another funny thing here is to see all these people-well, some of them, maybe- that on other threads pontificate on how RC sacraments are graceless, getting all worried now about what a blasphemy could have taken place if that woman had communed.

I was kind of thinking "what difference does it make?"  How can their be any problem if there is no Grace in the RC sacraments?  Seems like much to do about nothing.
According to the canon 69 of John the Faster a lesbian cannot even partake in graceless, heretical sacraments. Zonaras and Balsamon explain it would be second degree blasphemy. The neo-patristic theologians in order  to avoid any hint of scholasticism prefer to talk about " a type of blasphemy" or "ikonic blasphemy">
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« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2012, 09:48:50 PM »

LBK

You are failing to distinguish between a priest to refusing Communion to one whom he has postively identified as obstinately persisting in manifest grave sin and refusing it based on a hunch or worse rumor.

Refusing Communion in the Catholic Church is a big deal because by doing so the priest is proclaiming the person in a state of mortal sin and/or excommunication.  In the Orthodox Church one can be refused simply because the priest doesn't know you.

Rubbish. The guardian of the chalice, be he bishop, or priest obedient to his bishop, be he Orthodox or RC/EC, has the responsibility to ensure whoever approaches the chalice has prepared himself or herself properly. This includes confession and absolution, which can only be given by a priest or bishop where someone has expressed contrition and repentance for their sins, irrespective of the nature of their sins.

As you should know, we Orthodox don't distinguish between "venial" and "mortal" sins. Repentance is repentance. There is no evidence that this homosexual woman has repented from her sin, be it her engaging in homosexual acts, or her apostasy. It is repentance which allows us, Orthodox and Roman/Eastern Catholic alike, to approach the chalice.

Or am I mistaken about the RC/EC?

You are mistaken.  In the Catholic Church it is the communicant who has the primary responsibilty for making sure he is properly prepared, having kept the Eucharistic fast and not having any unrepented mortal sin.  The Catholic Church doesn't require Confession before every Communion.  Confession is only required if one is aware of mortal sin.  Again the priest can only withhold Communion if he knows the person is not Catholic or is persistant in mortal sin he has privately admonished the person about already. 

And while not using the terminology venial and mortal, Orthodoxy certainly distinguishes between sins otherwise there would not be canons requiring years of non-communication for some sins and not others.

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« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2012, 09:56:38 PM »

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In the Catholic Church it is the communicant who has the primary responsibilty for making sure he is properly prepared, having kept the Eucharistic fast and not having any unrepented mortal sin. 
Which puts the responsibility of guarding the chalice on the layman, not the priest. Nice.  Tongue

Quote
The Catholic Church doesn't require Confession before every Communion.

Neither does the Greek church. But don't think that Greek priests aren't capable of turning away folks who have not properly prepared themselves. I've been around.  Wink

Quote
And while not using the terminology venial and mortal, Orthodoxy certainly distinguishes between sins otherwise there would not be canons requiring years of non-communication for some sins and not others.

We are pastoral, not legalistic.  Wink
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« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2012, 10:03:25 PM »

Another funny thing here is to see all these people-well, some of them, maybe- that on other threads pontificate on how RC sacraments are graceless, getting all worried now about what a blasphemy could have taken place if that woman had communed.

I was kind of thinking "what difference does it make?"  How can their be any problem if there is no Grace in the RC sacraments?  Seems like much to do about nothing.
According to the canon 69 of John the Faster a lesbian cannot even partake in graceless, heretical sacraments. Zonaras and Balsamon explain it would be second degree blasphemy. The neo-patristic theologians in order  to avoid any hint of scholasticism prefer to talk about " a type of blasphemy" or "ikonic blasphemy">

Second degree Malachy with intent to sing musical numbers.
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« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2012, 10:04:39 PM »

Another funny thing here is to see all these people-well, some of them, maybe- that on other threads pontificate on how RC sacraments are graceless, getting all worried now about what a blasphemy could have taken place if that woman had communed.

I was kind of thinking "what difference does it make?"  How can their be any problem if there is no Grace in the RC sacraments?  Seems like much to do about nothing.

Well, it is one more problem that would have to be addressed before there could ever be a return of Rome to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2012, 10:09:33 PM »

According to the canon 69 of John the Faster a lesbian cannot even partake in graceless, heretical sacraments. Zonaras and Balsamon explain it would be second degree blasphemy. The neo-patristic theologians in order  to avoid any hint of scholasticism prefer to talk about " a type of blasphemy" or "ikonic blasphemy">

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