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Author Topic: Infant vs. Believer Baptism  (Read 9271 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #225 on: March 20, 2012, 09:38:24 PM »

You say that you trust the Spirit. That implies that He communicates to you in some way.
no it really doesn't.
Quote
I didn't ask the question because "that's what 'most Protestants' say". I asked the question in direct response to something YOU said.
Which was what exactly please?

Quote
I believe the Holy Spirit speaks to me (through the Church), so I see nothing wrong with anyone admitting that. I just want to know how you believe the Holy Spirit speaks to you, since you say you trust Him.
He doesn't "speak" to me.

Quote
It is clear the only reason Peter posted his question in that way is because that is what 'most Protestants' say.
Maybe you should ask me why I say something rather than presume to know my mind?
Maybe you should try taking your own advice.

Quote
I am not 'most Protestants'; i am not here representing the Protestant church.
And I'm not addressing you as though you were merely another Protestant.
I know you don't think you are, you probably don't mean to either but yes, you did do.
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« Reply #226 on: March 21, 2012, 12:06:46 AM »


Apparently the Apostles performed Infant Baptisms as did all those taught by them. Who are you again?

Not surprised you prefixed with "Apparently...".

That all you got?

  

Is that all that matters to you is what i've "got"?

I guess I was looking for a substantive answer.. I realize it is unlikely you can provide one.



No you weren't Marc so don't try and elevate yourself post pettiness.



I'm afraid not.

Here is the question at hand in case you've forgotten: Where is the documentation that the Church changed it's original  practice of denying  Baptism to Infants to allowing it?

David's long standing claim is the the practice of so called "Believers Baptism"  was the practice of the Apostles.. We know with certainty that infant Baptism was the practice of the Church before the year 200 since Tertullian discusses it near or around the year 200.
It's hard to believe that the Church changed this sacrament without discussion. Impossible really. But that's the claim.

So I was hoping for a substantive replay. A bit of documentation. At least some reasonable explanation of why there isn't any or why the Chruch never met about or discussed such an important change. But all we get from you is obfuscation.

Maybe David will do better, once he gets back.   
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« Reply #227 on: March 21, 2012, 01:07:03 AM »

Quote
I didn't ask the question because "that's what 'most Protestants' say". I asked the question in direct response to something YOU said.
Which was what exactly please?
That you trust in the Holy Spirit.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 01:07:13 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #228 on: March 21, 2012, 07:48:35 AM »

Forgive me if some of this has been said -long thread!

This topic is, of course, hotly debated within Protestantism as well, with scholars on both sides claiming biblical and historical warrant while sometimes also candidly admitting a lack of absolute slam dunk exegetical "proof." If such absolute exegetical proof were possible one wonders why all the fuss for the last few centuries including our own within Protestantism.
Yes it has been and will be debated within Protestantism until Christ returns no doubt. One thing i'm convinced of is that neither side of the argument has that "slam dunk" proof you refer to, even though they would like to think they do.

A hidden) premise of the thread title is "infants cannot have faith"; however Luther (and I believe also Calvin) regarded infants as having a kind of "faith." If infants *can* have a sort of faith, believer's "versus" infant baptism would be a false dichotomy, and support for the former would not count as ipso facto evidence contra the latter.
I do wholeheartedly agree; infants have faith. There's no doubt in my heart and mind this is true as there is strong evidence to support that claim.

Some passages cited in favor of this thesis include Psalm 8:2 ("Out of the mouths of babes and nursing infants you have perfected praise"; quoted by Jesus in Matt 21:16) and Luke 1:15b, 41: "He [John the Baptist] will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb..."; "...and it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit." It is argued that even before birth in this instance some kind of faith/cognizance would have to be present for the unborn John to have reacted -not just as a biological organism might to a sound, but *joyously* to the presence of Mary, then pregnant with the Maker of the starfields.

I am not sure how one would argue that the unborn John could display a reaction of both recognition and *joy* while at the same time being utterly devoid of faith of any sort. I am also not sure how one would argue that *praise of God* is possible without some sort of faith in God, although I would be interested to hear such a theory if anyone cares to offer one.

That even a babe in the womb can receive grace is also often claimed evident from Lk 1:15. Other commonly cited examples are found here.

Some (not all) Lutherans will object to the baptism of John example as playing a part in *their* defense of infant baptism in that they hold prior faith, even mentioned as an alternative possibility, is not the best way to represent the Lutheran perspective, although it is nevertheless commonly cited by other Lutheran and many Roman Catholic writers.

I think the common hidden assumption which would balk at the above passages is tied to the presumption that faith *must* be correlated with a specific capacity for discursive reasoning in every case (which seems challenged e.g. by suckling infants seeming to *need* "some" sort of faith in God to actually *praise* God), or even to what extent biblical data requires us to posit propositional awareness is a sine qua non of faith, a broad debate in and of itself with examples such as the faith of the OT prostitute Rahab typically being called into court. I will leave the details aside and simply mention it in passing here as it will doubtless come to the reader's mind. But the scripture assigning faith to infants seems to clearly break the self-evidence of the argument for absolute necessity of such a connection between faith and propositional capacity as many see it. Life is larger than logic, and so is faith, and God is able to relate in and through all things to our "hearts "as well as to our heads. This is not to say propositional knowledge is irrelevant to faith (a notion perhaps more akin to Buddhism), for once it begins to factor in we realize it becomes inescapable as it constitutes our being in the world one way or another; ideas do have consequences, and they are at least in scripture dialectically relatable to faith, not strictly prior or consequential. But they are arguably never the primary thing; encountering God in the manner he has laid down for us -not merely as a manner, but as Energy- arguably is, e.g. in the askesis of prayer, in the Eucharist, and so on. This is clearly evident in the biblical doctrine that holiness is transmissible MERELY BY TOUCH, another notion which has been largely lost in the Protestant West.
No disagreements here accept to smile at your last sentence when i think of the Toronto Blessing #winks

Of course paedofaith does not necessarily entail paedobaptism, which is another can of worms I will not bother to open in depth at this time.
These worms are where i start to get a little picky with my food.

The biblical evidence considered alone (in a sort of artificial vaccuum) has been deemed ambiguous either way by some very good scholars. However if the evidence can be deemed ambiguous and interpreted in different ways, what determines which choice is individually affirmed? Tradition, tacitly or explicitly/perceived or not, plays a role in *every* theological trajectory within Christendom bar none.
I'll give a tentative nod.

Scholarship is not hermetically sealed from the sociology of tradition -an almost universally discounted notion in contemporary philosophy (even science cannot be wertfrein or "value free"); in fact traditions grounded in scholarship are among the most conservative of all forms of tradition (liturgical tradition being, I think, the most conservative).
Okay, another tentative nod.

It often goes unrecognized by Protestants on a sort of outmoded hermeneutic characteristic of outmoded Enlightenment foundationalism, and indeed supposing doctrines can be "proved by the scripture" like this one, when even within Protestantism there are strong proponents of every position at the highest level of academic theological and exegetical competence, seems rather dubious IMHO, else why has the debate continued for so many centuries after the Reformation? Neither does sola scriptura avoid extra biblical information in terms of the vast studies about the philological historiography of the biblical languages which look beyond the scriptures themselves to, yes, culture and tradition, the endless attention to backgrounds in ancient Judaism, historical, liturgical, rhetorical, and other sitz im leben, and on and on, and yet a giant wall is put up by some Protestants when it comes to the early fathers (though admittedly all do not do this -I never did before becoming Orthodox and essentially considered myself paleo-orthodox for quite some time before personally making the move to Orthodoxy- but many certainly do) even when certain theological points, like the belief in the possibility of apostasy and so on, were universally held with no exceptions whatsoever in every major geographic region where early Christianity spread from the earliest attested dates, and among those for whom Koine Greek was a mother tongue to boot, and among those who had direct lines of descent among their revered teachers to the apostles themselves.
this is too jam packed full of juicy worms for me to comment on each as i think we'd be off in all different directions.

Another poster provided the following helpful information, which I'll append in closing as my post is already getting too long for most to bother with...

From Vespers for the feast of the Nativity of St John the Baptist:
"You were shown to be a prophet and Forerunner from your mother's womb, O John, Baptist of Christ, leaping up and rejoicing within her when you beheld the Queen, bearing the Timeless One who was begotten of the Father without mother, coming to her handmaid and to you, who shone forth from a barren woman and an elderly man according to God's promise. Elizabeth conceived the Forerunner of grace, and the Virgin conceived the Lord of glory. Both mothers kissed each other, and the babe leapt up, for within her womb the servant praised the Master. And the mother of the Forerunner marvelled and cried out: "How is it that the Mother of my Lord should come to me? May He who has great mercy save a despairing people!"

From the Litia:
"Today Elizabeth gives birth to the ultimate prophet, the first of the apostles, the earthly angel and heavenly man, the voice of the Word, the soldier and Forerunner of Christ, who leapt up beforehand in token of the promise, and before his birth proclaimed the Sun of righteousness; and she rejoices. Zechariah is astonished in his old age, putting aside his silence like a bond imposed upon him; and as the father of the voice he prophesies: "For you, O child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High and shall go forth to prepare the way for Him.: Therefore, O angel, prophet, apostle, warrior, Forerunner, baptizer, preacher and instructor of repentance: As the voice of the Light and Word, pray unceasingly for us who keep your memory with faith."
I think i'd be astonished too -- poor man.
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« Reply #229 on: March 21, 2012, 07:57:29 AM »

Quote
I didn't ask the question because "that's what 'most Protestants' say". I asked the question in direct response to something YOU said.
Which was what exactly please?
That you trust in the Holy Spirit.

Yes i trust in the Spirit's guidance.

Many people might say that he talks to them, i'm not one of them.

I don't know how he guides before you ask, i leave that up to him.
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« Reply #230 on: March 21, 2012, 09:42:06 AM »

Quote
I didn't ask the question because "that's what 'most Protestants' say". I asked the question in direct response to something YOU said.
Which was what exactly please?
That you trust in the Holy Spirit.

Yes i trust in the Spirit's guidance.

Many people might say that he talks to them, i'm not one of them.

I don't know how he guides before you ask, i leave that up to him.
Then it seems I'm defining "speak" a bit more loosely than you are.
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« Reply #231 on: March 21, 2012, 09:44:26 AM »


Apparently the Apostles performed Infant Baptisms as did all those taught by them. Who are you again?

Not surprised you prefixed with "Apparently...".

That all you got?

  

Is that all that matters to you is what i've "got"?

I guess I was looking for a substantive answer.. I realize it is unlikely you can provide one.



No you weren't Marc so don't try and elevate yourself post pettiness.



I'm afraid not.

Here is the question at hand in case you've forgotten: Where is the documentation that the Church changed it's original  practice of denying  Baptism to Infants to allowing it?

David's long standing claim is the the practice of so called "Believers Baptism"  was the practice of the Apostles.. We know with certainty that infant Baptism was the practice of the Church before the year 200 since Tertullian discusses it near or around the year 200.
It's hard to believe that the Church changed this sacrament without discussion. Impossible really. But that's the claim.

So I was hoping for a substantive replay. A bit of documentation. At least some reasonable explanation of why there isn't any or why the Chruch never met about or discussed such an important change. But all we get from you is obfuscation.

Maybe David will do better, once he gets back.   
I look forward to that as well...

PP
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« Reply #232 on: March 21, 2012, 11:10:36 AM »

Quote
I didn't ask the question because "that's what 'most Protestants' say". I asked the question in direct response to something YOU said.
Which was what exactly please?
That you trust in the Holy Spirit.

Yes i trust in the Spirit's guidance.

Many people might say that he talks to them, i'm not one of them.

I don't know how he guides before you ask, i leave that up to him.
Then it seems I'm defining "speak" a bit more loosely than you are.

Then use "_" these around the word (as you have done now) or these (_) or these '_' or even these <_> or these *_* and as is commonly understood you won't be meaning the word in its most literal sense.





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« Reply #233 on: March 21, 2012, 11:21:23 AM »


Apparently the Apostles performed Infant Baptisms as did all those taught by them. Who are you again?

Not surprised you prefixed with "Apparently...".

That all you got?

  

Is that all that matters to you is what i've "got"?

I guess I was looking for a substantive answer.. I realize it is unlikely you can provide one.



No you weren't Marc so don't try and elevate yourself post pettiness.



I'm afraid not.

Here is the question at hand in case you've forgotten: Where is the documentation that the Church changed it's original  practice of denying  Baptism to Infants to allowing it?

David's long standing claim is the the practice of so called "Believers Baptism"  was the practice of the Apostles.. We know with certainty that infant Baptism was the practice of the Church before the year 200 since Tertullian discusses it near or around the year 200.
It's hard to believe that the Church changed this sacrament without discussion. Impossible really. But that's the claim.

So I was hoping for a substantive replay. A bit of documentation. At least some reasonable explanation of why there isn't any or why the Chruch never met about or discussed such an important change. But all we get from you is obfuscation.

Maybe David will do better, once he gets back.  

I don't do replays.

I am astounded at yours and PeePee's hope in a substantive reply if his claim is as you say, of such a "long standing" nature. Clearly he must have gone over his ground many times to neither side's satisfaction.
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« Reply #234 on: March 21, 2012, 11:26:56 AM »

This thread is getting worser by the post.

Two sides of the same coin arguing.

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« Reply #235 on: March 21, 2012, 11:28:48 AM »

Quote
I am astounded at yours and PeePee's hope in a substantive reply if his claim is as you say, of such a "long standing" nature
Wow, thanks for the urine reference.

Also, no. Im truly interested in David's analysis. I find him very informative and I like hearing (erm...reading) his point of view.

PP
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« Reply #236 on: March 21, 2012, 11:35:43 AM »

Quote
I am astounded at yours and PeePee's hope in a substantive reply if his claim is as you say, of such a "long standing" nature
Wow, thanks for the urine reference.

Also, no. Im truly interested in David's analysis. I find him very informative and I like hearing (erm...reading) his point of view.

PP

Then i promise i won't shed a tear if you cease posting on this thread until he returns.

/winks
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« Reply #237 on: March 21, 2012, 11:43:54 AM »

Quote
I am astounded at yours and PeePee's hope in a substantive reply if his claim is as you say, of such a "long standing" nature
Wow, thanks for the urine reference.

Also, no. Im truly interested in David's analysis. I find him very informative and I like hearing (erm...reading) his point of view.

PP

Then i promise i won't shed a tear if you cease posting on this thread until he returns.

/winks
Does that include responding to you when you post?
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« Reply #238 on: March 21, 2012, 11:49:03 AM »

PeePee's
Please don't use such juvenile insults as this in your posts again.
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« Reply #239 on: March 21, 2012, 12:08:07 PM »

Quote
I didn't ask the question because "that's what 'most Protestants' say". I asked the question in direct response to something YOU said.
Which was what exactly please?
That you trust in the Holy Spirit.

Yes i trust in the Spirit's guidance.

Many people might say that he talks to them, i'm not one of them.

I don't know how he guides before you ask, i leave that up to him.

I have a Protestant friend who sometimes says he "feels the Holy Spirit" and asked if Orthodox also say this or something like it.

The answer no, at least I have never heard it mentioned and doesnt sound like anything we should go by to determine the authenticity of anything.
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« Reply #240 on: March 21, 2012, 12:12:06 PM »

Quote
I didn't ask the question because "that's what 'most Protestants' say". I asked the question in direct response to something YOU said.
Which was what exactly please?
That you trust in the Holy Spirit.

Yes i trust in the Spirit's guidance.

Many people might say that he talks to them, i'm not one of them.

I don't know how he guides before you ask, i leave that up to him.

I have a Protestant friend who sometimes says he "feels the Holy Spirit" and asked if Orthodox also say this or something like it.

The answer no, at least I have never heard it mentioned and doesnt sound like anything we should go by to determine the authenticity of anything.

And i regard it as nothing more than emotionalism.
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« Reply #241 on: March 21, 2012, 12:13:03 PM »


Apparently the Apostles performed Infant Baptisms as did all those taught by them. Who are you again?

Not surprised you prefixed with "Apparently...".

That all you got?

  

Is that all that matters to you is what i've "got"?

I guess I was looking for a substantive answer.. I realize it is unlikely you can provide one.



No you weren't Marc so don't try and elevate yourself post pettiness.



I'm afraid not.

Here is the question at hand in case you've forgotten: Where is the documentation that the Church changed it's original  practice of denying  Baptism to Infants to allowing it?

David's long standing claim is the the practice of so called "Believers Baptism"  was the practice of the Apostles.. We know with certainty that infant Baptism was the practice of the Church before the year 200 since Tertullian discusses it near or around the year 200.
It's hard to believe that the Church changed this sacrament without discussion. Impossible really. But that's the claim.

So I was hoping for a substantive replay. A bit of documentation. At least some reasonable explanation of why there isn't any or why the Chruch never met about or discussed such an important change. But all we get from you is obfuscation.

Maybe David will do better, once he gets back.  

I don't do replays.

I am astounded at yours and PeePee's hope in a substantive reply if his claim is as you say, of such a "long standing" nature. Clearly he must have gone over his ground many times to neither side's satisfaction.


Nope, he has been unable to answer in the past or now it seems. How could such a major change in a central practice of the Church go undiscussed?

Could you at least try to guess?  
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« Reply #242 on: March 21, 2012, 01:32:34 PM »

Just curious do infants have faith?Do they have another sort of faith than the adults?Are they baptized on account to their faith, to that faith?

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« Reply #243 on: March 21, 2012, 03:10:18 PM »

Just curious do infants have faith?Do they have another sort of faith than the adults?Are they baptized on account to their faith, to that faith?



Scriptures indicate that we are all given a measure of faith. I would suggest that it is different to saving faith though as someone could have the faith of a baby and yet end up turning away into Atheism all their life.
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« Reply #244 on: March 22, 2012, 10:55:59 AM »

Just curious do infants have faith?Do they have another sort of faith than the adults?Are they baptized on account to their faith, to that faith?



Very young children have no guile. Christ  offers them up as an example of what adults should try to emulate.

Matthew 18:3
"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

What some Protestants seem to mean by faith is a type of math. You must have the ability to calculate, pick and chose. After weighing  this proposition against another you come to a conclusion.

I have even heard that they quiz children before allowing them to be Baptized, ie grafted onto Christ.

That sort of calculating mind is for adults. That is why the Church has adults stand up for a child at Baptism and promise to teach them the Faith correctly. But the innocence of a child is an unspoiled fertile field in which to plant the seed of God's grace. Christ highly valued their openness and innocence. As we see in Scripture he said to be more like them not for them to be like us.     
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« Reply #245 on: March 22, 2012, 10:59:46 AM »

Just curious do infants have faith?Do they have another sort of faith than the adults?Are they baptized on account to their faith, to that faith?



Very young children have no guile. Christ  offers them up as an example of what adults should try to emulate.

Matthew 18:3
"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

What some Protestants seem to mean by faith is a type of math. You must have the ability to calculate, pick and chose. After weighing  this proposition against another you come to a conclusion.

I have even heard that they quiz children before allowing them to be Baptized, ie grafted onto Christ.

That sort of calculating mind is for adults. That is why the Church has adults stand up for a child at Baptism and promise to teach them the Faith correctly. But the innocence of a child is an unspoiled fertile field in which to plant the seed of God's grace. Christ highly valued their openness and innocence. As we see in Scripture he said to be more like them not for them to be like us.     

The biggest stumbling block in my faith is the math example you gave Marc. Im always thinking myself into a spiritual crisis. Thank you for posting that. You're right on the money.

PP
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« Reply #246 on: March 22, 2012, 11:07:59 AM »

Well i think Christ was implying that infants believe in him

but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Matthew 18:6

and that they are example of faith and have the ultimate faith.


and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:3

So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. Matthew 18:4
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« Reply #247 on: March 22, 2012, 12:21:00 PM »

Just curious do infants have faith?Do they have another sort of faith than the adults?Are they baptized on account to their faith, to that faith?



Very young children have no guile. Christ  offers them up as an example of what adults should try to emulate.

Matthew 18:3
"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

What some Protestants seem to mean by faith is a type of math. You must have the ability to calculate, pick and chose. After weighing  this proposition against another you come to a conclusion.

I have even heard that they quiz children before allowing them to be Baptized, ie grafted onto Christ.

That sort of calculating mind is for adults. That is why the Church has adults stand up for a child at Baptism and promise to teach them the Faith correctly. But the innocence of a child is an unspoiled fertile field in which to plant the seed of God's grace. Christ highly valued their openness and innocence. As we see in Scripture he said to be more like them not for them to be like us.     

The biggest stumbling block in my faith is the math example you gave Marc. Im always thinking myself into a spiritual crisis. Thank you for posting that. You're right on the money.

PP

Yes, Orthodox believe that God chooses us, or "calls us out", not the other way around. We believe that if God brought you to an Orthodox Church, and you have an opportunity to baptize your child in the Church, it is God's will and providence that allowed you to do so.
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« Reply #248 on: March 22, 2012, 03:04:28 PM »


but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Matthew 18:6


Azul, do you have a way of checking this? I was taught this verse was about weaker brothers not children.
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« Reply #249 on: March 22, 2012, 03:28:27 PM »


but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Matthew 18:6


Azul, do you have a way of checking this? I was taught this verse was about weaker brothers not children.
Do you believe that a passage of Scripture can have multiple meanings?
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« Reply #250 on: March 24, 2012, 06:11:17 AM »

Just curious do infants have faith?Do they have another sort of faith than the adults?Are they baptized on account to their faith, to that faith?



Scriptures indicate that we are all given a measure of faith. I would suggest that it is different to saving faith though as someone could have the faith of a baby and yet end up turning away into Atheism all their life.

what is salvic faith, other than a state of being?what is salvic faith other than theosis?what is salvic faith other than being blameless?to whom does this blameless pertain if not to the child in us?
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« Reply #251 on: March 24, 2012, 10:25:59 AM »

Just curious do infants have faith?Do they have another sort of faith than the adults?Are they baptized on account to their faith, to that faith?



Scriptures indicate that we are all given a measure of faith. I would suggest that it is different to saving faith though as someone could have the faith of a baby and yet end up turning away into Atheism all their life.

what is salvic faith, other than a state of being?what is salvic faith other than theosis?what is salvic faith other than being blameless?to whom does this blameless pertain if not to the child in us?

Saving faith causes repentance.
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« Reply #252 on: March 24, 2012, 10:26:49 AM »


but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Matthew 18:6


Azul, do you have a way of checking this? I was taught this verse was about weaker brothers not children.
Do you believe that a passage of Scripture can have multiple meanings?

Depends on the context.



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« Reply #253 on: March 24, 2012, 10:29:11 AM »

Primuspilus, sorry for my being childish.
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« Reply #254 on: March 24, 2012, 11:38:36 AM »

Just curious do infants have faith?Do they have another sort of faith than the adults?Are they baptized on account to their faith, to that faith?



Scriptures indicate that we are all given a measure of faith. I would suggest that it is different to saving faith though as someone could have the faith of a baby and yet end up turning away into Atheism all their life.

what is salvic faith, other than a state of being?what is salvic faith other than theosis?what is salvic faith other than being blameless?to whom does this blameless pertain if not to the child in us?

Saving faith causes repentance.

So do you regularly go to confession?
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« Reply #255 on: March 24, 2012, 12:39:10 PM »

Hmm David has been gone for a while...I hope the Vatican didn't detain him... Wink
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« Reply #256 on: March 24, 2012, 01:24:47 PM »


but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Matthew 18:6


Azul, do you have a way of checking this? I was taught this verse was about weaker brothers not children.
Do you believe that a passage of Scripture can have multiple meanings?

Depends on the context.
Would you please explain?
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« Reply #257 on: March 24, 2012, 02:43:47 PM »

Do you believe that a passage of Scripture can have multiple meanings?
Could be. For example: Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;.Ephesians 6:5.
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« Reply #258 on: March 25, 2012, 08:07:46 AM »


but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Matthew 18:6


Azul, do you have a way of checking this? I was taught this verse was about weaker brothers not children.
Do you believe that a passage of Scripture can have multiple meanings?

Depends on the context.
Would you please explain?

It depends on whether the context the verse came from is broad and ambiguous as in this case where the 'millstone' verse could mean one of two things or a mixture of both.

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« Reply #259 on: March 25, 2012, 08:10:39 AM »

Do you believe that a passage of Scripture can have multiple meanings?
Could be. For example: Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;.Ephesians 6:5.

Yes, i think this word μικρός (mikros), could include slaves.
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« Reply #260 on: April 16, 2012, 04:41:48 AM »

Allright.I just came back from Church and the priest was saying that the faith of the mother is transmitted to the child she is bearing.What do you guys say, make of it?
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« Reply #261 on: April 16, 2012, 08:41:28 AM »

Allright.I just came back from Church and the priest was saying that the faith of the mother is transmitted to the child she is bearing.What do you guys say, make of it?

Three thoughts come to mind.

1. The child does receive communion through its mother while in the womb.

2. The child is going to grow up believing what the parents believe and not anything else, at least for a period of time. The only exception would be in a mixed faith marriage, in which case it may or may not be the faith of the mother in which the child is raised.

3. The child still needs to be baptized.
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« Reply #262 on: April 16, 2012, 08:41:59 AM »

Allright.I just came back from Church and the priest was saying that the faith of the mother is transmitted to the child she is bearing.What do you guys say, make of it?
Huh
Are you sure that's what he said?
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« Reply #263 on: April 16, 2012, 04:06:32 PM »

Allright.I just came back from Church and the priest was saying that the faith of the mother is transmitted to the child she is bearing.What do you guys say, make of it?

Three thoughts come to mind.

1. The child does receive communion through its mother while in the womb.

So the child receives Holy Communion, even though he is not baptised.
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« Reply #264 on: April 16, 2012, 04:13:55 PM »

Allright.I just came back from Church and the priest was saying that the faith of the mother is transmitted to the child she is bearing.What do you guys say, make of it?
Three thoughts come to mind.

1. The child does receive communion through its mother while in the womb.
So the child receives Holy Communion, even though he is not baptised.

The child receives its nourishment from its mother. We allow pregnant women to commune.
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« Reply #265 on: April 16, 2012, 04:29:18 PM »

Allright.I just came back from Church and the priest was saying that the faith of the mother is transmitted to the child she is bearing.What do you guys say, make of it?
Three thoughts come to mind.

1. The child does receive communion through its mother while in the womb.
So the child receives Holy Communion, even though he is not baptised.

The child receives its nourishment from its mother. We allow pregnant women to commune.
That is something I hadn't thought about. It seems like that should have some consequences worth elaborating on.
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« Reply #266 on: April 16, 2012, 04:36:43 PM »

Allright.I just came back from Church and the priest was saying that the faith of the mother is transmitted to the child she is bearing.What do you guys say, make of it?
Three thoughts come to mind.

1. The child does receive communion through its mother while in the womb.
So the child receives Holy Communion, even though he is not baptised.

The child receives its nourishment from its mother. We allow pregnant women to commune.
That is something I hadn't thought about. It seems like that should have some consequences worth elaborating on.

To introduce the child to the medicine of immortality while still in it's mother's womb, and to then deprive the child of the same for several years afterwards (8?), makes little sense to me.
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« Reply #267 on: April 16, 2012, 04:40:22 PM »

Allright.I just came back from Church and the priest was saying that the faith of the mother is transmitted to the child she is bearing.What do you guys say, make of it?
Three thoughts come to mind.

1. The child does receive communion through its mother while in the womb.
So the child receives Holy Communion, even though he is not baptised.

The child receives its nourishment from its mother. We allow pregnant women to commune.
That is something I hadn't thought about. It seems like that should have some consequences worth elaborating on.

To introduce the child to the medicine of immortality while still in it's mother's womb, and to then deprive the child of the same for several years afterwards (8?), makes little sense to me.
For those Orthodox mothers who breast feed their babies, I imagine that the nourishment of Holy Communion would continue to reach their children indirectly through their milk. In that case, it's probably best to baptize infants at least before they're weaned.
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« Reply #268 on: April 16, 2012, 04:46:09 PM »

Allright.I just came back from Church and the priest was saying that the faith of the mother is transmitted to the child she is bearing.What do you guys say, make of it?
Three thoughts come to mind.

1. The child does receive communion through its mother while in the womb.
So the child receives Holy Communion, even though he is not baptised.

The child receives its nourishment from its mother. We allow pregnant women to commune.
That is something I hadn't thought about. It seems like that should have some consequences worth elaborating on.

To introduce the child to the medicine of immortality while still in it's mother's womb, and to then deprive the child of the same for several years afterwards (8?), makes little sense to me.
For those Orthodox mothers who breast feed their babies, I imagine that the nourishment of Holy Communion would continue to reach their children indirectly through their milk. In that case, it's probably best to baptize infants at least before they're weaned.

yes, good point. How long do we usually breast-feed babies? A year or so? After that those who don't commune infants would deprive them for 7 years at least.
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« Reply #269 on: April 16, 2012, 06:07:22 PM »

Allright.I just came back from Church and the priest was saying that the faith of the mother is transmitted to the child she is bearing.What do you guys say, make of it?
Three thoughts come to mind.

1. The child does receive communion through its mother while in the womb.
So the child receives Holy Communion, even though he is not baptised.

The child receives its nourishment from its mother. We allow pregnant women to commune.
That is something I hadn't thought about. It seems like that should have some consequences worth elaborating on.

To introduce the child to the medicine of immortality while still in it's mother's womb, and to then deprive the child of the same for several years afterwards (8?), makes little sense to me.
For those Orthodox mothers who breast feed their babies, I imagine that the nourishment of Holy Communion would continue to reach their children indirectly through their milk. In that case, it's probably best to baptize infants at least before they're weaned.

yes, good point. How long do we usually breast-feed babies? A year or so? After that those who don't commune infants would deprive them for 7 years at least.

Six years sometimes... Takes a toll  
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 06:07:40 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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