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Author Topic: Humans are descended from demons?  (Read 986 times) Average Rating: 0
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amartin
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« on: March 10, 2012, 09:17:30 PM »

I believe that humans are descended from fallen angels, i.e. demons. I perceive this intuitively, and to me it makes sense experientially and rationally. After I believed this for a while, I found out that some of the Essenes believed the same thing. Has anyone else had this perception at any time?
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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2012, 10:07:17 PM »

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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2012, 10:13:54 PM »

Um. No?
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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2012, 10:40:38 PM »

I believe that humans are descended from fallen angels, i.e. demons. I perceive this intuitively, and to me it makes sense experientially and rationally. After I believed this for a while, I found out that some of the Essenes believed the same thing. Has anyone else had this perception at any time?

Where does one begin?  For sure, this idea that humans descended from demons, I don't know if I know any heretic in Church history that even held this idea, let alone the Church herself.

Maybe, a disgruntled anti-human person who was riddled with bad experiences of his fellow man would say something like that.

Perhaps, you're thinking of the Nephilim?  They were considered to be descendants of demons by some of the earliest Church fathers, but they weren't considered "humans," and by Noah's time, they were all believed to be gone via the flood.
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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2012, 10:41:04 PM »

You mean we're Hellspawn? Does that mean we get demonic powers?
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« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2012, 10:44:16 PM »

All humans are descended from Adam, who was formed from the earth by God.
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« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2012, 11:01:41 PM »

I believe that humans are descended from fallen angels, i.e. demons. I perceive this intuitively, and to me it makes sense experientially and rationally. After I believed this for a while, I found out that some of the Essenes believed the same thing. Has anyone else had this perception at any time?

Is this something that has been revealed to you and you only?  Or is there some source behind this?  (I'm not buying your reference to the Essenes; please provide and cite supporting evidence)
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« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2012, 11:26:30 PM »

I believe that humans are descended from fallen angels, i.e. demons. I perceive this intuitively, and to me it makes sense experientially and rationally. After I believed this for a while, I found out that some of the Essenes believed the same thing. Has anyone else had this perception at any time?
Why do you perceive this intuitively? To me it is experientially false. I find God in everyone that I know. Why are you keying in on a fraction of the  Essenes? How are they different from us? Are they more than human? You have much to explain in your post.
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« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2012, 11:43:36 PM »

I was not trying to prove anything by the reference to the Essenes. I was only stating that some other people have in fact believed this.

By the way, it is stated in their supposed "Book of Enoch." I'm not sure if this was the same Book of Enoch that was quoted by the Letter of Jude and which is used by the Ethiopian Orthodox.
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« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2012, 12:46:12 AM »

I was not trying to prove anything by the reference to the Essenes. I was only stating that some other people have in fact believed this.

By the way, it is stated in their supposed "Book of Enoch." I'm not sure if this was the same Book of Enoch that was quoted by the Letter of Jude and which is used by the Ethiopian Orthodox.

I think I've read through that part in Enoch and agree with  minasoliman that your probably thinking of the Nephilim and that they weren't really human. Even if we go with this idea that's only some humans not all humans as your initial statement seems to imply, still though I think your talking about Nephilim.
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« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2012, 01:33:01 AM »

I was not trying to prove anything by the reference to the Essenes. I was only stating that some other people have in fact believed this.

By the way, it is stated in their supposed "Book of Enoch." I'm not sure if this was the same Book of Enoch that was quoted by the Letter of Jude and which is used by the Ethiopian Orthodox.

The Book of Enoch, if I am not mistaken (Gebre or Habte or another one of the EOC members may be able to confirm or correct my views), teaches that the demons fathered the Nephilim, as others have said.  However, it also teaches that Noah and his family were descended from Adam, who was not descended from demons, and consequently all of humanity (the Nephilim having been wiped out by the flood) are in no way descended from demons.

Is there any particular reason you "intuitively" believe demons fathered people?  Didn't you say in another thread that spirits can't directly impact the physical world?  Do you not believe demons are spirits?


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« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2012, 01:58:41 AM »


Is there any particular reason you "intuitively" believe demons fathered people?  Didn't you say in another thread that spirits can't directly impact the physical world?  Do you not believe demons are spirits?


I actually believe in the view that everything has devolved (involution): from God down to heavenly hosts down to angels down to demons down to humans. This is the most ancient view in recorded human history.
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« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2012, 02:12:57 AM »


Is there any particular reason you "intuitively" believe demons fathered people?  Didn't you say in another thread that spirits can't directly impact the physical world?  Do you not believe demons are spirits?


I actually believe in the view that everything has devolved (involution): from God down to heavenly hosts down to angels down to demons down to humans. This is the most ancient view in recorded human history.

But this is not Christian belief, let alone Orthodox Christian belief. You won't find traction for your belief here, I'm afraid.
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« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2012, 02:33:39 AM »


Is there any particular reason you "intuitively" believe demons fathered people?  Didn't you say in another thread that spirits can't directly impact the physical world?  Do you not believe demons are spirits?


I actually believe in the view that everything has devolved (involution): from God down to heavenly hosts down to angels down to demons down to humans. This is the most ancient view in recorded human history.

Evidence? Because that's not what's in the Sumerian, Egyptian, or Vedic texts which are generally considered the 'most ancient' human records. I'm having trouble thinking of anything older than 4th or 5th century BC that has much resemblance to this view--as far as I'm aware it's largely an invention of the Neo-Platonists.

(Golden Age/Fall narratives are much older but those are all falls 'within type' not from type to type--that is, humanity's situation or humanity itself gets worse, but the change is human to human not demon to human).
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« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2012, 03:10:02 AM »


Is there any particular reason you "intuitively" believe demons fathered people?  Didn't you say in another thread that spirits can't directly impact the physical world?  Do you not believe demons are spirits?


I actually believe in the view that everything has devolved (involution): from God down to heavenly hosts down to angels down to demons down to humans. This is the most ancient view in recorded human history.

First of all, now that we got something straight here, you believe that the Essenes believed the book of Enoch, which has a passage about the Nephilim.  Well, now you know that what the book of Enoch really has was not that humans descend from demons, but that the Nephilim descended from demons, which seem to be quickly extinct by the flood.  If you know of any other source by the Essenes that would prove your case though, it would be interesting to hear, but I doubt it.

Second of all, considering that you misunderstood the source from the book of Enoch, how do you know that involution was the most ancient belief?  What records or writings do you have that prove this?  How do you know you're not misunderstanding what you're reading (or better yet, reading into something written that's not really meant).

PS  One Ethiopian poster here actually showed us how the passage from the book of Enoch is interpreted differently, and that it's possible that the interpretation may even exclude any demonic descent of any creature at all.
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« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2012, 03:54:43 AM »

I did read that the Essenes supposedly had a Book of Enoch that stated that the original sin was having sex with the serpent, i.e. demons, and thereby the fallen species was propagated. Whether or not this is true, I do not know.

Anyways, devolution (or involution) is among the most ancient beliefs in human history. It is the Vedic worldview.
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« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2012, 04:21:51 AM »

I did read that the Essenes supposedly had a Book of Enoch that stated that the original sin was having sex with the serpent, i.e. demons, and thereby the fallen species was propagated.
Where'd you read that?

Anyways, devolution (or involution) is among the most ancient beliefs in human history. It is the Vedic worldview.
By "vedic" do you mean post-upanishads or pre-upanishads, or trancendentalist North American, or 18th Century colonial British (in India), or what interpretive tradition?
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« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2012, 11:28:46 AM »

It is the Vedic worldview.

If you be so kind as to help this person out and point out where in the Vedic texts it says humans descended from demons, because this person thinks it's not there:

Evidence? Because that's not what's in the Sumerian, Egyptian, or Vedic texts which are generally considered the 'most ancient' human records.

Thank you.
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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2012, 12:04:32 PM »

I did read that the Essenes supposedly had a Book of Enoch that stated that the original sin was having sex with the serpent, i.e. demons, and thereby the fallen species was propagated. Whether or not this is true, I do not know.

Anyways, devolution (or involution) is among the most ancient beliefs in human history. It is the Vedic worldview.

The only theory I have ever read related to the idea that Eve had sex with the serpent is that of the "serpent seed," which is popular in some off-the-wall Protestant groups.  Could your provide any evidence the Essenes had anything teaching this?  As well, again, the only thing I have ever heard that is similar is the serpent seed theory, which only says that Cain was the offspring of a demon, not all of Eve's children.  Given that Noah is said to have been descended through Seth, your point is still moot.
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« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2012, 12:08:36 PM »

I was not trying to prove anything by the reference to the Essenes. I was only stating that some other people have in fact believed this.

By the way, it is stated in their supposed "Book of Enoch." I'm not sure if this was the same Book of Enoch that was quoted by the Letter of Jude and which is used by the Ethiopian Orthodox.

I think I've read through that part in Enoch and agree with  minasoliman that your probably thinking of the Nephilim and that they weren't really human. Even if we go with this idea that's only some humans not all humans as your initial statement seems to imply, still though I think your talking about Nephilim.

The nephilim were Neantherthals.
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« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2012, 02:21:58 PM »

Shouldn't this be in the evolution thread? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2012, 02:24:14 PM »

I did read that the Essenes supposedly had a Book of Enoch that stated that the original sin was having sex with the serpent, i.e. demons, and thereby the fallen species was propagated. Whether or not this is true, I do not know.

Anyways, devolution (or involution) is among the most ancient beliefs in human history. It is the Vedic worldview.
As well, again, the only thing I have ever heard that is similar is the serpent seed theory, which only says that Cain was the offspring of a demon, not all of Eve's children.  Given that Noah is said to have been descended through Seth, your point is still moot.
Not exactly moot. I know some Christians point to one of Noah's sons having a wife who descended from Cain (a possibility, biblically speaking), making some modern humans descendants of Cain.
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2012, 02:36:07 PM »

I did read that the Essenes supposedly had a Book of Enoch that stated that the original sin was having sex with the serpent, i.e. demons, and thereby the fallen species was propagated. Whether or not this is true, I do not know.

Anyways, devolution (or involution) is among the most ancient beliefs in human history. It is the Vedic worldview.
As well, again, the only thing I have ever heard that is similar is the serpent seed theory, which only says that Cain was the offspring of a demon, not all of Eve's children.  Given that Noah is said to have been descended through Seth, your point is still moot.
Not exactly moot. I know some Christians point to one of Noah's sons having a wife who descended from Cain (a possibility, biblically speaking), making some modern humans descendants of Cain.

Considering that women were thought of as not contributing to the seed of any human, but rather as a proper "soil" of growth for the seed of man, even if there was one woman as a descendant of a Nephilim, the thought of the ancient Christians would make this a moot point, and that the descendants of these "Nephilim women" were 100% Sethians either way.
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