Author Topic: Tolkien and the Nazis  (Read 1117 times)

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Offline Jetavan

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Tolkien and the Nazis
« on: March 10, 2012, 08:16:41 PM »
Quote
In 1938, some months after the initial publication of The Hobbit, J. R. R. Tolkien and his British publisher, Stanley Unwin, opened talks with Rütten & Loening, a Berlin-based publishing house who were keen to translate the novel for the German market. All was going well until, in July, they wrote to Tolkien and asked for proof of his Aryan descent. Tolkien was furious, and forwarded their letter to his publisher along with two possible replies — one in which their question was delicately side-stepped, and one, seen below, in which Tolkien made his displeasure known with considerable style.

Sweet.
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2012, 11:00:14 PM »
I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)
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Offline Maximum Bob

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2012, 01:04:19 AM »
I knew I had good reason to like that guy.  :)
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2012, 01:33:35 AM »
Quote
In 1938, some months after the initial publication of The Hobbit, J. R. R. Tolkien and his British publisher, Stanley Unwin, opened talks with Rütten & Loening, a Berlin-based publishing house who were keen to translate the novel for the German market. All was going well until, in July, they wrote to Tolkien and asked for proof of his Aryan descent. Tolkien was furious, and forwarded their letter to his publisher along with two possible replies — one in which their question was delicately side-stepped, and one, seen below, in which Tolkien made his displeasure known with considerable style.

Sweet.

Sweet it is!

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2012, 06:42:26 AM »
I'm sure I'm reading too much into them, but Tolkien's novels strike me as pretty race-conscious, to say the least.
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Offline Punch

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2012, 04:03:35 PM »
It is OK to be racist against Indians, Kenyans, Ugandans, Zulu, Bantu and the like.  Just don't be racist against the Joos.  That be real bad.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2012, 07:14:40 PM »
It is OK to be racist against Indians, Kenyans, Ugandans, Zulu, Bantu and the like.  Just don't be racist against the Joos.  That be real bad.

Um, relevance?

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2012, 07:15:11 PM »
I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)

Were the Nazis anti-Indian?

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2012, 07:26:57 PM »
I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)

Were the Nazis anti-Indian?

I honestly don't know, but I can imagine so...i mean if one is already bigotted as it is within your own race, one's bigotry doesn't stop against the Jews.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 07:27:24 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2012, 07:29:32 PM »
I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)

Were the Nazis anti-Indian?
I think the Nazis would have viewed the Indians as, at best, degenerated Nordics who had interbred with inferior races. The Nazi approach to the Gypsies (who originally come from northwest India) was one of extermination.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
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Offline Punch

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2012, 07:31:50 PM »
It is OK to be racist against Indians, Kenyans, Ugandans, Zulu, Bantu and the like.  Just don't be racist against the Joos.  That be real bad.

Um, relevance?

An English author upset about German racism.  When it comes to racism, the English wrote the book.  Look who coined the term "Consentration Camp" and when.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2012, 07:34:11 PM »
It is OK to be racist against Indians, Kenyans, Ugandans, Zulu, Bantu and the like.  Just don't be racist against the Joos.  That be real bad.

Um, relevance?

An English author upset about German racism.  When it comes to racism, the English wrote the book.  Look who coined the term "Consentration Camp" and when.

Pot, meet kettle.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2012, 07:38:53 PM »
I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)

Were the Nazis anti-Indian?

I honestly don't know, but I can imagine so...i mean if one is already bigotted as it is within your own race, one's bigotry doesn't stop against the Jews.

Reduction of Nazi racial theory to a singular statement is difficult. Even more difficult is what "Nazi" praxis would be in a simple statement.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 07:40:20 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline Punch

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2012, 07:59:55 PM »
I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)

Were the Nazis anti-Indian?

I honestly don't know, but I can imagine so...i mean if one is already bigotted as it is within your own race, one's bigotry doesn't stop against the Jews.

Reduction of Nazi racial theory to a singular statement is difficult. Even more difficult is what "Nazi" praxis would be in a simple statement.

Amen.  As one who has known Nazis first hand, and I do not mean the modern poseurs.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2012, 08:28:57 PM »
I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)

Were the Nazis anti-Indian?

I honestly don't know, but I can imagine so...i mean if one is already bigotted as it is within your own race, one's bigotry doesn't stop against the Jews.

Reduction of Nazi racial theory to a singular statement is difficult. Even more difficult is what "Nazi" praxis would be in a simple statement.

Indeed.  For instance, I've read in several reliable places that Hitler had the goal of Japan ruling Asia.
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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2012, 08:30:01 PM »
I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)

Were the Nazis anti-Indian?

I honestly don't know, but I can imagine so...i mean if one is already bigotted as it is within your own race, one's bigotry doesn't stop against the Jews.

Reduction of Nazi racial theory to a singular statement is difficult. Even more difficult is what "Nazi" praxis would be in a simple statement.

Indeed.  For instance, I've read in several reliable places that Hitler had the goal of Japan ruling Asia.
Certainly explains why, on December 11, 1941, three days after the U.S. declared war on Japan, Germany declared war on the U.S.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2012, 08:50:23 PM »
I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)

Were the Nazis anti-Indian?

I honestly don't know, but I can imagine so...i mean if one is already bigotted as it is within your own race, one's bigotry doesn't stop against the Jews.

Reduction of Nazi racial theory to a singular statement is difficult. Even more difficult is what "Nazi" praxis would be in a simple statement.

Indeed.  For instance, I've read in several reliable places that Hitler had the goal of Japan ruling Asia.

Wouldn't this be for convenience sake, rather than spreading yourself out thin?  I mean, if Hitler had the choice and power, he'd probably turn against the Japs too.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2012, 09:48:16 PM »
Check out the Wikipedia entry for the term "Aryan" for more information.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2012, 10:17:42 PM »
I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)

Were the Nazis anti-Indian?

I honestly don't know, but I can imagine so...i mean if one is already bigotted as it is within your own race, one's bigotry doesn't stop against the Jews.

Reduction of Nazi racial theory to a singular statement is difficult. Even more difficult is what "Nazi" praxis would be in a simple statement.

Indeed.  For instance, I've read in several reliable places that Hitler had the goal of Japan ruling Asia.

Wouldn't this be for convenience sake, rather than spreading yourself out thin?  I mean, if Hitler had the choice and power, he'd probably turn against the Japs too.

You obviously didn't understand what the Third Reich was about.

Churchill was the worst thing that happened to the Jews.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 10:19:41 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline mike

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2012, 08:56:22 AM »
I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)

Were the Nazis anti-Indian?

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indische_Legion

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2012, 08:58:11 AM »
I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)

Were the Nazis anti-Indian?

I honestly don't know, but I can imagine so...i mean if one is already bigotted as it is within your own race, one's bigotry doesn't stop against the Jews.

Reduction of Nazi racial theory to a singular statement is difficult. Even more difficult is what "Nazi" praxis would be in a simple statement.

Indeed.  For instance, I've read in several reliable places that Hitler had the goal of Japan ruling Asia.

Wouldn't this be for convenience sake, rather than spreading yourself out thin?  I mean, if Hitler had the choice and power, he'd probably turn against the Japs too.

You obviously didn't understand what the Third Reich was about.

Churchill was the worst thing that happened to the Jews.
How so?
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2012, 08:59:27 AM »
I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)

Were the Nazis anti-Indian?

I honestly don't know, but I can imagine so...i mean if one is already bigotted as it is within your own race, one's bigotry doesn't stop against the Jews.

Reduction of Nazi racial theory to a singular statement is difficult. Even more difficult is what "Nazi" praxis would be in a simple statement.

Indeed.  For instance, I've read in several reliable places that Hitler had the goal of Japan ruling Asia.

Wouldn't this be for convenience sake, rather than spreading yourself out thin?  I mean, if Hitler had the choice and power, he'd probably turn against the Japs too.

You obviously didn't understand what the Third Reich was about.

Churchill was the worst thing that happened to the Jews.
How so?

Why?
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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2012, 09:03:31 AM »
I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)

Were the Nazis anti-Indian?

I honestly don't know, but I can imagine so...i mean if one is already bigotted as it is within your own race, one's bigotry doesn't stop against the Jews.

Reduction of Nazi racial theory to a singular statement is difficult. Even more difficult is what "Nazi" praxis would be in a simple statement.

Indeed.  For instance, I've read in several reliable places that Hitler had the goal of Japan ruling Asia.

Wouldn't this be for convenience sake, rather than spreading yourself out thin?  I mean, if Hitler had the choice and power, he'd probably turn against the Japs too.

You obviously didn't understand what the Third Reich was about.

Churchill was the worst thing that happened to the Jews.
How so?

Why?
I don't know. You were the one who said Churchill was the worst thing that happened to the Jews. I've never seen this point of view expressed before, so I'm curious to know what you mean by saying it.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2012, 09:10:33 AM »
I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)

Were the Nazis anti-Indian?

I honestly don't know, but I can imagine so...i mean if one is already bigotted as it is within your own race, one's bigotry doesn't stop against the Jews.

Reduction of Nazi racial theory to a singular statement is difficult. Even more difficult is what "Nazi" praxis would be in a simple statement.

Indeed.  For instance, I've read in several reliable places that Hitler had the goal of Japan ruling Asia.

Wouldn't this be for convenience sake, rather than spreading yourself out thin?  I mean, if Hitler had the choice and power, he'd probably turn against the Japs too.

You obviously didn't understand what the Third Reich was about.

Churchill was the worst thing that happened to the Jews.
How so?

Why?
I don't know. You were the one who said Churchill was the worst thing that happened to the Jews. I've never seen this point of view expressed before, so I'm curious to know what you mean by saying it.

First hyperbole.

And if the British didn't get involved in the affairs of the Germans peoples, the costs and ravages of war would not have made work and annihilation camps the method of choice for enforcing the Aryanization of the German World.

For instance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan#In_Nazi_Germany



 
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 09:10:52 AM by orthonorm »
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Offline vamrat

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2012, 09:30:50 AM »
I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)

Were the Nazis anti-Indian?

I honestly don't know, but I can imagine so...i mean if one is already bigotted as it is within your own race, one's bigotry doesn't stop against the Jews.

Reduction of Nazi racial theory to a singular statement is difficult. Even more difficult is what "Nazi" praxis would be in a simple statement.

Indeed.  For instance, I've read in several reliable places that Hitler had the goal of Japan ruling Asia.

Wouldn't this be for convenience sake, rather than spreading yourself out thin?  I mean, if Hitler had the choice and power, he'd probably turn against the Japs too.

You obviously didn't understand what the Third Reich was about.

Churchill was the worst thing that happened to the Jews.
How so?

Why?
I don't know. You were the one who said Churchill was the worst thing that happened to the Jews. I've never seen this point of view expressed before, so I'm curious to know what you mean by saying it.

First hyperbole.

And if the British didn't get involved in the affairs of the Germans peoples, the costs and ravages of war would not have made work and annihilation camps the method of choice for enforcing the Aryanization of the German World.

For instance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan#In_Nazi_Germany



 

From the wikipedia article: "How the native Malagasy population of Madagascar was to fit in with this plan was never elaborated upon."

I wonder if the Malagasy would have gotten off better than the Palestinians? 
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Offline Punch

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2012, 10:34:22 AM »
Getting rid of the Japs was in the plans.

I like how he subtly have shown how being Aryan means sharing ancestry with those who they possibly might have had some bigotry against.

This is nice.  And the fact that it happened on July 25th (my birthday) makes it even nicer.  8)

Were the Nazis anti-Indian?

I honestly don't know, but I can imagine so...i mean if one is already bigotted as it is within your own race, one's bigotry doesn't stop against the Jews.

Reduction of Nazi racial theory to a singular statement is difficult. Even more difficult is what "Nazi" praxis would be in a simple statement.

Indeed.  For instance, I've read in several reliable places that Hitler had the goal of Japan ruling Asia.

Wouldn't this be for convenience sake, rather than spreading yourself out thin?  I mean, if Hitler had the choice and power, he'd probably turn against the Japs too.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2012, 04:53:22 PM »
Is it that difficult to type Japanese rather than Jap?

Offline Punch

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2012, 05:03:03 PM »
Is it that difficult to type Japanese rather than Jap?

Yes, when it has to be done due to some stupid political correctness.  Do you need a tissue?
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2012, 05:37:18 PM »
Is it that difficult to type Japanese rather than Jap?

Yes, when it has to be done due to some stupid political correctness.  Do you need a tissue?

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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Tolkien and the Nazis
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2012, 05:39:39 PM »
Is it that difficult to type Japanese rather than Jap?

Yes, when it has to be done due to some stupid political correctness.  Do you need a tissue?

Why offend, when it would be just as easy to not offend?