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Author Topic: Ortodox liturgy vs. Catholic Liturgy  (Read 12709 times) Average Rating: 0
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tkd7334
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« on: October 11, 2004, 04:30:55 PM »

I was hoping that somebody here could describe for me some of the differences between Catholic and Ortodox liturgy?  Some specific things would really help!
Thanks,
ATP
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2004, 07:17:24 PM »

catholic mass usually lasts 30 minutes while Orthodox Liturgies last an hour and 5 or 10 Minutes
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« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2004, 07:36:22 PM »

catholic mass usually lasts 30 minutes while Orthodox Liturgies last an hour and 5 or 10 Minutes

I think you're understating both just a tad.  The only Catholic Mass I've seen that only lasted 30 min was on TV.  Most Orthodox Liturgies last 1:20+
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2004, 07:39:27 PM »

yeah I left out time for "communing" Tongue
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« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2004, 08:17:21 PM »

There's a lot that could be said (comments about time being put aside).  Do you have anything specifically in mind?
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« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2004, 08:57:50 PM »

The Latin Tridentine Mass took about 1hour-10minutes.

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« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2004, 10:23:57 PM »

The basic outline is the same: Opening-readings-creed-offeretory-eucharitis liturgy-communion-blessing-coffee hour
After the schism, the east and the west developed certain traditions of thier own that makes the litiurgies apper more different then they actually are; the west developed various forms of hymnody and started using "spoken" services for instance.
The eastern liturgies include more prayers in homor of Mary and other saints. Also there is no general confession prayer in an eastern liturgy as there is at the beggining of a Roman liturgy.
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« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2004, 12:20:55 PM »

catholic mass usually lasts 30 minutes while Orthodox Liturgies last an hour and 5 or 10 Minutes

That's when supermodernists say it. Yesterday, I went to a Low Traditional Mass which lasted 1 hour ten minutes. Last week the Sung Mass lasted 1 and a half hours.
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« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2004, 12:30:12 PM »

Most things in an Eastern liturgy (EL) are chanted, or "sung," whereas the majority of the Western liturgies (WLs) are spoken.

The EL is much more repetitious than the much simpler (though still quite beautiful) WLs.

The EL has a great entrance, where the elements are brought around to the altar through the doors of a large icon screen (called an iconostasis), whereas the movement of the WLs is a simple, solemn movement to the altar.

Those are the main differences I can think of -- Oh!  and in the EL you won't usually hear OT readings, whereas you'd hear them in a WL setting.
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« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2004, 12:32:38 PM »

Ok, but how about some specific things, like Eucharist or the way priest refers to some saints... Specific things...,
Again, thanks for your effort...
ATP
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« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2004, 12:40:46 PM »

The basic outline is the same: Opening-readings-creed-offeretory-eucharitis liturgy-communion-blessing-coffee hour
After the schism, the east and the west developed certain traditions of thier own that makes the litiurgies apper more different then they actually are; the west developed various forms of hymnody and started using "spoken" services for instance.
The eastern liturgies include more prayers in homor of Mary and other saints. Also there is no general confession prayer in an eastern liturgy as there is at the beggining of a Roman liturgy.
What are you talking about? The Sacrament of Confession is not apart of Mass. The invention of the name "general confession" at the beginning of Mass is a protestantization. Its called the Confiteor, the "I confess" prayer. Also the orthodox liturgy goes more like offeratory[proskimedia]-Enarxis- Little entrance with the Gospel- Epistle and Gospel - sermon sometimes -another round of petitions- the Great entrance- the Credo -  the Anaphora - Pater Noster- Reception of the Most Holy Body and Blood, while the Roman Liturgy goes like this asperges[blessing of the people with water] - prayers at the foot of the altar[psalm 42,confiteor]- ascension of the steps with the saying of the aufer a nobis - Kyrie eleison and gloria - Collects,EPistle, and Gospel - Sermon -  Creed - Start of the Mass of the Faithful -Offeratory - Canon[anaphora] -Agnus Dei - and final blessing. Amen that it is
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« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2004, 12:44:01 PM »

Most things in an Eastern liturgy (EL) are chanted, or "sung," whereas the majority of the Western liturgies (WLs) are spoken.

The EL is much more repetitious than the much simpler (though still quite beautiful) WLs.

The EL has a great entrance, where the elements are brought around to the altar through the doors of a large icon screen (called an iconostasis), whereas the movement of the WLs is a simple, solemn movement to the altar.

Those are the main differences I can think of -- Oh!  and in the EL you won't usually hear OT readings, whereas you'd hear them in a WL setting.

Also WL have more silent parts than EL's

WHy is that? How come EL's don't have OT readings?

 WHat is this solemn,simple movement to the altar? THe chalice is always on the altar during Mass.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2004, 12:46:02 PM by CatholicEagle » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2004, 12:48:24 PM »

Catholic Eagle,

"What are you talking about? The Sacrament of Confession is not apart of Mass. The invention of the name "general confession" at the beginning of Mass is a protestantization. Its called the Confiteor, the "I confess" prayer."

He doesn't mean sacrament of confession, he means the confession prayer, Confietor. He's saying the same thing as you.

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« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2004, 01:25:26 PM »

Quote
That's when supermodernists say it. Yesterday, I went to a Low Traditional Mass which lasted 1 hour ten minutes. Last week the Sung Mass lasted 1 and a half hours.

My father, when he was a boy in 1945, used to serve regularly at the 7am Sunday Low Mass, which took less than 40 minutes, according to him and my four uncles, who also regularly assisted at the same Mass (the Beck boys had a monopoly on that particular Mass, apparently).  The way things were done in 1945 is far different than the way things are done in traditionalist parishes today.  Unless you are at least 55 years old, you really have no recollection of the "good old days" and anything you've experienced post-Ecclesia Dei is a romanticized version of pre-Vatican II.
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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2004, 01:26:15 PM »

Ok, but how about some specific things, like Eucharist or the way priest refers to some saints... Specific things...,
Again, thanks for your effort...
ATP

Well, there are a multitude of little differences.  The basic thrust of the liturgy is very similar in terms of structure, but the details are different in myriad ways because they are two different liturgiucal rites (Latin/Roman rite, on the one hand, and the Byzantine/Constantinopolitan rite, on the other).  Someone attending liturgy in a different rite can recognize the basic thrust of what is happening and the basic structure, but there are numerous, numerous details in how things are done, elements of structure, words and formulations and the like.

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« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2004, 02:37:06 PM »

My father, when he was a boy in 1945, used to serve regularly at the 7am Sunday Low Mass, which took less than 40 minutes, according to him and my four uncles, who also regularly assisted at the same Mass (the Beck boys had a monopoly on that particular Mass, apparently).  The way things were done in 1945 is far different than the way things are done in traditionalist parishes today.  Unless you are at least 55 years old, you really have no recollection of the "good old days" and anything you've experienced post-Ecclesia Dei is a romanticized version of pre-Vatican II.
'

Yes I know... TOday Traditionalists are treated like lepers... in 1945 we were the norm.
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« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2004, 03:08:07 PM »

Why no Old Testament Readings at an Eastern Rite Liturgy? Not sure exactly why not, but Old Testament readings are reserved for the most part for Vespers in the Orthodox Church.  At Divine Liturgy there is just an Epistle and Gospel Reading.  However, even in Rome's Latin Rite Mass, the Old Testament reading is a relatively new thing.  Before the Vatican II reforms, Rome read only the Epistle and Gospel at Mass, just like Orthodox do now. In addition, Rome used only a one year lectionary before Vatican II (like the Orthodox still do) instead of the 3 year lectionary like Rome uses today.  And before anyone asks, the Roman One Year Lectionary and the Orthodox One Year Lectionary aren't the same. They don't match up at all.
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« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2004, 03:16:01 PM »

CatholicEagle,

Tikhon29605 brings up a good point.  Your earlier post seemed to question the validity of not having OT readings at the Divine Liturgy, yet the Pian Mass has no such readings, either.  What gives?
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« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2004, 03:17:15 PM »

Why no Old Testament Readings at an Eastern Rite Liturgy? Not sure exactly why not, but Old Testament readings are reserved for the most part for Vespers in the Orthodox Church.  At Divine Liturgy there is just an Epistle and Gospel Reading.  However, even in Rome's Latin Rite Mass, the Old Testament reading is a relatively new thing.  Before the Vatican II reforms, Rome read only the Epistle and Gospel at Mass, just like Orthodox do now. In addition, Rome used only a one year lectionary before Vatican II (like the Orthodox still do) instead of the 3 year lectionary like Rome uses today.  And before anyone asks, the Roman One Year Lectionary and the Orthodox One Year Lectionary aren't the same. They don't match up at all.
I know. Even the old Traditional System had old testament readings.
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« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2004, 03:18:41 PM »

CatholicEagle,

Tikhon29605 brings up a good point.  Your earlier post seemed to question the validity of not having OT readings at the Divine Liturgy, yet the Pian Mass has no such readings, either.  What gives?
Validity? I was jsut inquisitive.Sheesh,germans!!
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« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2004, 03:21:58 PM »

What a Christian response....  Roll Eyes

Please do not bring your own prejudices into the topic because there is no reason to go there.

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« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2004, 03:57:59 PM »

Okay, fair enough, perhaps "validity" was a strong word.  But I find that an odd question for a Roman Traditionalist to ask.
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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2004, 05:29:01 PM »

///Why no Old Testament Readings at an Eastern Rite Liturgy? Not sure exactly why not, but Old Testament readings are reserved for the most part for Vespers in the Orthodox Church.  At Divine Liturgy there is just an Epistle and Gospel Reading.  However, even in Rome's Latin Rite Mass, the Old Testament reading is a relatively new thing.  Before the Vatican II reforms, Rome read only the Epistle and Gospel at Mass, just like Orthodox do now. In addition, Rome used only a one year lectionary before Vatican II (like the Orthodox still do) instead of the 3 year lectionary like Rome uses today.  And before anyone asks, the Roman One Year Lectionary and the Orthodox One Year Lectionary aren't the same. They don't match up at all.///

Because the OT readings are done the previous evening at Vespers.

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« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2004, 08:09:51 PM »

Dear ATP,

(I am reminded of the ever-present adenosine tri-phosphate from my high school biology courses).  Smiley

FYI, the posts here refer mostly to the liturgical practice of the Byzantine rite.  There are other Orthodox liturgical traditions, which differ amongst themselves.  A thread comparing all of them would go nuts.  Wink

CatholicEagle,

Quote
That's when supermodernists say it. Yesterday, I went to a Low Traditional Mass which lasted 1 hour ten minutes. Last week the Sung Mass lasted 1 and a half hours.

I guess there were supermodernists back in the golden days as well.  If you read Dominic Prummer's Handbook of Moral Theology, you will see in one place that it is considered a mortal sin to celebrate Mass in less than twenty minutes.  One can infer from this that it is indeed possible to celebrate the Roman Mass in less than twenty minutes, although this runs the risk of irreverence.  I've read stories of priests who, because most of the prayers were done silently, merely "breathed" them, "saying" the words while exhaling AND inhaling, to save time.  I don't think this would last very long at all.  Whenever I've attended low Masses on a Sunday, they always took about an hour, but this included a long sermon, reading the readings in English, announcements, etc., none of which is really necessary to the ritual.  Of course, this is in a "post-Ecclesia Dei" era...Schultz's father's recollection of forty minute Sunday low Masses sounds about right ("low" NO Masses take about as much on a Sunday).  A weekday low Mass (old rite) need not take any more than half an hour.

OT readings are present in the Syrian rite Liturgy.  OT readings can be, but are not always, read during a Latin Mass (sometimes the Epistle is an OT reading).  OT readings are read at Vespers during Lent and on the eves of some feasts, but not regularly, in the Byzantine rite.
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« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2004, 09:53:24 PM »

Dear ATP,

(I am reminded of the ever-present adenosine tri-phosphate from my high school biology courses).  Smiley

FYI, the posts here refer mostly to the liturgical practice of the Byzantine rite.  There are other Orthodox liturgical traditions, which differ amongst themselves.  A thread comparing all of them would go nuts.  Wink

CatholicEagle,I guess there were supermodernists back in the golden days as well.  If you read Dominic Prummer's Handbook of Moral Theology, you will see in one place that it is considered a mortal sin to celebrate Mass in less than twenty minutes.  One can infer from this that it is indeed possible to celebrate the Roman Mass in less than twenty minutes, although this runs the risk of irreverence.  I've read stories of priests who, because most of the prayers were done silently, merely "breathed" them, "saying" the words while exhaling AND inhaling, to save time.  I don't think this would last very long at all.  Whenever I've attended low Masses on a Sunday, they always took about an hour, but this included a long sermon, reading the readings in English, announcements, etc., none of which is really necessary to the ritual.  Of course, this is in a "post-Ecclesia Dei" era...Schultz's father's recollection of forty minute Sunday low Masses sounds about right ("low" NO Masses take about as much on a Sunday).  A weekday low Mass (old rite) need not take any more than half an hour.

OT readings are present in the Syrian rite Liturgy.  OT readings can be, but are not always, read during a Latin Mass (sometimes the Epistle is an OT reading).  OT readings are read at Vespers during Lent and on the eves of some feasts, but not regularly, in the Byzantine rite.    
What golden days? there have been no golden days on earth since Adam and Eve were exiled from Eden. Yes,this was a sunday low Mass and yes it is true that a weekday low Mass would take about 40 minutes.
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« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2004, 09:55:01 PM »

Okay, fair enough, perhaps "validity" was a strong word.  But I find that an odd question for a Roman[addition: Catholic] Traditionalist to ask.

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« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2004, 11:21:07 PM »

Perhaps the starter of the thread, tkd, can clarify if (s)he meant to compare the Eastern liturgies to the Novous Ordo or to previous Roman Catholic liturgies.
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« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2004, 12:44:56 PM »


Because the OT readings are done the previous evening at Vespers.

JoeS

Huh?  When, other than during Great Lent and the vespers for (some) feast days?  Regular Saturday evening vespers does not generally include proper OT readings, in my experience at least.

B
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« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2004, 01:00:02 PM »

Remember, too, that the Orthodox Church has present in the longer forms of the Vespers and Matins (now done mainly at monasteries) the reading of the Psalter, covering all the Psalms each week.
The church places a great weight on the psalms, which is why they are present in many of the prayers that the church uses (someone estimated that over 50% of orthodox prayer contains psalm verses in it).
The evolution of the Typikon has obviously placed more weight on the use of OT Psalms than any other section of the OT, just like the Gospel writers had their favorite books (like Isaiah).
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« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2004, 02:03:51 PM »

Huh?  When, other than during Great Lent and the vespers for (some) feast days?  Regular Saturday evening vespers does not generally include proper OT readings, in my experience at least.

B


From Bishop Alexanders excellent webpage:
  > http://www.fatheralexander.org/page6.htm
  >
  > Vespers
  >
  > Vespers recalls and represents events of the Old Testament: the creation
of the world, the fall into sin of the first human beings, their expulsion
from Paradise, their repentance and prayer for salvation, the hope of
mankind in accordance with the promise of God for a Saviour, and finally,
the fulfillment of that promise.
  >
  > The Vespers of an All Night Vigil begins with the opening of the Royal
Gates. The priest and deacon silently cense the Altar Table and the entire
sanctuary, so that clouds of incense fill the depths of the sanctuary. This
silent censing represents the beginning of the creation of the world. In the
beginning God created heaven and earth. And the earth was without form and
void, and the Spirit of God hovered over the original material earth,
breathing upon it a life-creating power, but the creating word of God had
not yet begun to resound.
  >
  > The priest then stands before the Altar and intones the first
exclamation to the glory of the Creator and Founder of the world, the Most
Holy Trinity: "Glory to the Holy, Consubstantial, Life-creating, and
Indivisible Trinity, always, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages."
  >
  > He then summons the faithful four times, "O come, let us worship God our
King. O come let us worship and fall down before Christ, our King and our
God. O come let us worship and fall down before Christ Himself, our King and
our God. O come let us worship and fall down before Him." "For All things
were made by Him; and without him was not anything made that was made (John
1:3)."
  >
  > In response to this summons, the choir solemnly chants the 103rd Psalm,
which describes the creation of the world and glorifies the wisdom of God:
"Bless the Lord, O my soul. Blessed art Thou, O Lord; O Lord my God, Thou
hast been magnified exceedingly...In wisdom hast Thou made them
all...Wondrous are Thy works, O Lord... Glory to Thee, O Lord, Who hast made
them all." During the chanting of this psalm the priest goes forth from the
sanctuary. He completes the censing of the entire church and the faithful
therein, while a deacon precedes him bearing a lit candle in his hand. This
sacred action calls to the mind of those praying the creation of the world;
but it is to remind them primarily of the blessed life in Paradise of the
first human beings, when the Lord God Himself walked among them. The open
Royal Gates signify that at that time the gates of Paradise were open for
all mankind.
  >
  > When man was deceived by the Devil and transgressed against the will of
God, he fell into sin. Because of this fall, man was deprived of his blessed
life in Paradise. He was driven out of Paradise and the gates were closed.
To symbolize this expulsion, after the censing of the church and the
chanting of the psalm, the Royal Gates are closed.
  >
  > The deacon then comes out from the sanctuary and stands before the
closed Royal Gates, as Adam stood before the sealed entrance of Paradise,
and intones the Great Litany: "In peace let us pray to the Lord." In other
words, let us pray to the Lord when we have been reconciled with all our
neighbors, so that we feel no anger or hostility towards them. "For the
peace from above, and for the salvation of our souls, let us pray to the
Lord." That is to say, let us pray that the Lord send down upon us "from on
high" the peace of Heaven, and that He save our souls.
  >
  > After the Great Litany and the exclamation of the priest, certain
selected verses are usually sung from the first three psalms of the Psalter:
"Blessed is the man that hath not walked in the counsel of the ungodly."
Blessed is he who has not lived or acted on the advice of those who are
irreverent and impious. "For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous, and
the way of the ungodly shall perish." For the Lord knows the life of the
righteous and the life of the impious leads to ruin. The deacon then intones
the Little Litany, "Again and again, in peace let us pray to the Lord..."
  >
  > After this litany, the choir chants the verses of certain psalms that
express the longing of man for salvation and Paradise: "Lord, I have cried
unto Thee, hearken unto me. Hearken unto me, O Lord...Attend to the voice of
my supplication, when I cry unto Thee...Let my prayer be set forth as
incense before Thee, the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice.
Hearken unto me, O Lord." During the chanting of these verses, the deacon
censes the church once more.
  >
  > Up to this point, the divine service, from the beginning of the closing
of the Royal Gates, through the petitions of the Great Ectenia and the
chanting of the psalms, represents the miserable state of mankind was
subject to by the fall of our forefathers into sin. With the fall, all the
deprivations, pains and sufferings we experience came into our lives. We cry
out to God, "Lord, have mercy," and request peace and salvation for our
souls. We feel contrition that we heeded the ungodly counsel of the Devil.
We ask God to forgive our sins and deliver us from troubles; we place all
our hope in His mercy. Thus, the censing by the deacon during the chanting
of the psalm signifies both the sacrifices of the Old Testament and the
prayers we are offering to God.
  >
  > Alternating with the chanting of the Old Testament verses of the psalm
"Lord, I have cried" are New testament hymns composed in honor of the saint
or feast of the day. The last verse is called the Theotokion, or Dogmatikon,
since it is sung in honor of the Mother of God. In it is set forth the dogma
on the incarnation of the Son of God from the Virgin Mary. On the twelve
great feasts, a special verse in honor of the feast is chanted in place of
the Theotokion.
  >
  > During the chanting of the Theotokion the Royal Gates are opened, and
the Vespers Entry is made; a candle bearer comes through the north door of
the Sanctuary, followed by the deacon with the censer, and finally the
priest. The priest stops on the ambo facing the Royal Gates and blesses the
entry with the sign of the Cross; after the intoning of the words "Wisdom,
let us attend!" by the deacon, the priest and the deacon reenters the Altar
together through the Royal Gates. The priest goes to stand next to the High
Place behind the Holy Table.
  >
  > At this time the choir chants a hymn to the Son of God, our Lord Jesus
Christ: "O Gentle Light of the holy glory of the immortal, heavenly, holy
blessed Father, O Jesus Christ: having come to the setting of the sun,
having beheld the evening light, we praise the Father, the Son, and the Holy
Spirit: God. Meet it is for Thee at all times to be hymned with reverent
voices, O Son of God, Giver of Life. Wherefore, the world doth glorify
Thee."
  >
  > In this hymn, the Son of God is called the Gentle Light that comes from
the Heavenly Father, for He came to this earth not in the fullness of divine
glory but in the gentle radiance of this glory. This hymn also says that
only with reverent voices, and not our sinful mouths, can He be glorified
and exalted worthily.
  >
  > The entry during Vespers reminds the faithful how the Old Testament
righteous, in harmony with the promise of God that was manifest in
prototypes and prophecies, expected the coming of the Saviour, and how He
appeared in the world for the salvation of the human race.
  >
  > The censer with incense used at the entry signifies that our prayers, by
the intercession of our Lord the Saviour, are offered to God like incense.
It also signifies the presence of the Holy Spirit in the church.
  >
  > The blessing with the sign of the Cross shows that by means of the Cross
of the Lord the doors into Paradise are opened again for us.
  >
  > Following the chanting of the hymn "O Gentle Light..." we sing the
prokeimenon, short verses taken from the Holy Scriptures. On Saturday
evening, for the Vespers for Sunday, we chant, "The Lord is King; He is
clothed with majesty."
  >
  > After the chanting of the prokeimenon, on the more important feasts
there are readings. These are selections from the Scriptures in which there
is a prophecy or a prototype which relates to the event being celebrated, or
in which edifying teachings are set forth, which relate to the saint
commemorated that day.
  >
  > Following the prokeimenon and readings the deacon intones the Augmented
Litany, "Let us all say with our whole soul and with our whole mind, let us
say." The prayer, "Vouchsafe, O Lord, to keep us this evening without
sin..." follows, and at the conclusion of this prayer the deacon reads the
Supplicatory Litany, "Let us complete our evening prayer unto the Lord..."
  >
  > On great feasts after the Augmented and Supplicatory Litanies the Litia,
or Blessing of Bread and Wine, is celebrated.
  >
  > "Litia" is a Greek word meaning "common prayer." The Litia, a series of
verses chanted by the choir followed by an enumeration of many saints whose
prayers are besought, is celebrated in the western end of the church, near
the main entrance doors, or in the Narthex, if the church is so arranged.
This part of the service was intended for those who were standing in the
Narthex, the catechumens and penitents, so they might be able to take part
in the common service on the occasions of the major festivals.
  >
  > At the end of the Litia is the blessing and sanctification of five
loaves of bread, wheat, wine and oil to recall the ancient custom of
providing food for those assembled who had come some distance, in order to
give them strength during the long divine services. The five loaves are
blessed to recall the feeding of the five thousand with five loaves of
bread. Later, during the main part of Matins, the priest anoints the
faithful with the sanctified oil, after they have venerated the festal icon.
 

===========

Orthodoc
  > After the Litia, or if it is not served, after the Supplicatory Litany,
the Aposticha (Verses with hymns) are chanted. These are a few verses which
are specially written in memory of the occasion.
  >
  > Vespers ends with the reading of the prayer of St. Simeon the
GodReceiver, "Now lettest Thou Thy servant depart in peace, O Master,
according to Thy word, for mine eyes have seen Thy salvation, which Thou
hast prepared before the face of all peoples; a light of revelation for the
gentiles and the glory of Thy people Israel." This prayer is followed by the
reading of the Trisagion and the Lord's Prayer, and the singing of the
salutation of the Theotokos, "O Theotokos and Virgin, Rejoice! or the
troparion of the feast, and finally the thricechanted prayer of the
Psalmist: "Blessed be the name of the Lord from henceforth and for
evermore." The 33rd Psalm is then read or chanted until the verse, "But they
that seek the Lord shall not be deprived of any good thing." Then follows
the priestly blessing, "The blessing of the Lord be upon you, through His
grace and love for mankind, always, now and ever, and unto the ages of
ages."
  >
  > The conclusion of Vespers with the prayer of St. Simeon and the angelic
salutation of the Theotokos indicates the fulfillment of the divine promise
of a Saviour.
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« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2004, 02:54:11 PM »

///Because the OT readings are done the previous evening at Vespers.

JoeS
 
 

Huh?  When, other than during Great Lent and the vespers for (some) feast days?  Regular Saturday evening vespers does not generally include proper OT readings, in my experience at least.

B///

I have the Vespers service book in front of me and it just chock full of OT prayers.

JoeS
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« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2004, 03:19:48 PM »

Well, at least in my OCA parish's practice, actual readings from the OT are sometimes inserted into the Vespers service after the evening Prokimenon -- but most of the time, the readings aren't done...usually just for the festal vespers of certain feasts.

The service ITSELF, however, contains many, many individual verses from the OT.  Just not whole readings.   Sad
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« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2004, 09:14:24 PM »

Well, at least in my OCA parish's practice, actual readings from the OT are sometimes inserted into the Vespers service after the evening Prokimenon -- but most of the time, the readings aren't done...usually just for the festal vespers of certain feasts.

The service ITSELF, however, contains many, many individual verses from the OT.  Just not whole readings.   Sad

Aside from the cyclical reading from the Psalter, in the standard Byzantine Orthodox usage there is not a reading from the OT appointed at Vespers every day or weekly.  Readings from the OT are appointed in the Typikon and occur on the eves of feasts.  So "the readings aren't done" is not correct unless you are saying that when readings are appointed they are not taken.
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« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2004, 02:17:41 PM »

I have attended Roman Catholic masses that lasted 20 minutes, including Communion! (I've also stood around the altar holding hands too, with the priest wearing a flannel shirt, jeans, and a burlap stole with butterflies on it, and a "chalice" made in pottery class. I hope I'm not being uncharitable by saying this --- this really was the normal weekday mass in my Catholic high school.) I've never seen an Orthodox DL last less than an hour 10 minutes.
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« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2004, 10:10:51 PM »

Quote
I have attended Roman Catholic masses that lasted 20 minutes, including Communion! (I've also stood around the altar holding hands too, with the priest wearing a flannel shirt, jeans, and a burlap stole with butterflies on it, and a "chalice" made in pottery class. I hope I'm not being uncharitable by saying this --- this really was the normal weekday mass in my Catholic high school.)

I don't think you were being uncharitable at all, you were describing a "Mass" and I think your post just proves the point of how hodge podge innovations can pass for a "Mass" these days in the Roman Catholic Church.

Blech.  :-";"xx
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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2005, 04:05:59 PM »

What Catholic "liturgy"?  Grin
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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2005, 05:45:42 PM »



I don't think you were being uncharitable at all, you were describing a "Mass" and I think your post just proves the point of how hodge podge innovations can pass for a "Mass" these days in the Roman Catholic Church.

Blech. :-

 Although I have myself been present at these sorts of Masses where there were liturgical abuses and more often, just minor offenses against good taste (and usually it is that which bashers of the NOvus Ordo tend to list),  this is not the standard for most celebrations of Mass in the Catholic Church.  Indeed, in my last years in the Byz Catholic Church, I attended Roman Mass sometimes at different parishes and thankfully saw very little of "liturgical antics" such as these.
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« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2005, 08:28:00 PM »

Quote
Although I have myself been present at these sorts of Masses where there were liturgical abuses and more often, just minor offenses against good taste (and usually it is that which bashers of the NOvus Ordo tend to list),  this is not the standard for most celebrations of Mass in the Catholic Church.  Indeed, in my last years in the Byz Catholic Church, I attended Roman Mass sometimes at different parishes and thankfully saw very little of "liturgical antics" such as these.

Then I'd say that you were fortunate to have such reverant Masses available to you. These various innovational things are to be expected, almost to the point of being considered the "norm" in the Roman Catholic Dioceses of Joliet and Chicago!

In Christ,
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« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2005, 06:13:01 PM »

Orthodoxy means "right worship":

"Orthodoxy is primarily liturgical. It informs and enlightens the people not so much by sermons and the teaching of norms and laws but by liturgical services themselves which give a foreshadowing of transfigured life. It likewise teaches the people through the examples of saints and instills the cult of holiness. But the images of saints are not normative; to them is granted the graceful enlightenment and transfiguration of creation by the action of the Holy Spirit. This, not being the normative type for Orthodoxy, makes it more difficult for the ways of human life, for history; it makes it less attractive for any kind of organization and for cultural creativity. The hidden mystery of the Holy Spirit's activity upon creation has not been actually realized by the ways of historical life. Characteristic for Orthodoxy is FREEDOM. This internal freedom may not be noticed from the outside but it is everywhere present. The idea of freedom as the foundation of Orthodoxy was developed in Russian religious thinking of the XIX and XX centuries. The admission of the freedom of conscience radically distinguishes the Orthodox Church from the Catholic Church. But the understanding of freedom in Orthodoxy is different from the understanding of freedom in Protestantism. In Protestantism, as in all Western thought, freedom is understood individualistically, as a personal right, preserved from encroachment on the part of any other person, and declaring it to be autonomous. Individualism is foreign to Orthodoxy, to it belongs a particular collectivism. A religious person and a religious collective are not incompatible with each other, as external friend to friend. The religious person is found within the religious collective and the religious collective is found within the religious person. Thus the religious collective does not become an external authority for the religious person, burdening the person externally with teaching and the law of life. The Church is not outside of religious persons, opposed to her. The Church is within them and they are within her. Thus the Church is not an authority. The Church is a grace-filled unity of love and freedom. Authoritativeness is incompatible with Orthodoxy because this form engenders a fracture between the religious collective and the religious person, between the Church and her members. There is no spiritual life without the freedom of conscience, there is not even a concept of the Church, since the Church does not tolerate slaves within her, but God wants only the free. But the authentic freedom of religious conscience, freedom of the spirit, is made evident not in an isolated autonomous personality, self-asserted in individualism but in a personality conscious of being in a superpersonal spiritual unity, in a unity with a spiritual organism, within the Body of Christ, i.e. the Church. My personal conscience is not placed outside and is not placed in opposition to the superpersonal conscience of the Church, it is revealed only within the Church's conscience. But, without an active spiritual deepening of my personal conscience, of my personal spiritual freedom, the life of the Church is not realized, since this life cannot be external to, nor be imposed upon, the person. Participation in the Church demands spiritual freedom, not only from the first entry into the Church, which Catholicism also recognizes, but throughout one's whole life. The Church's freedom with respect to the State was always precarious, but Orthodoxy always enjoyed freedom within the Church. In Orthodoxy freedom is organically linked with Sobornost', i.e. with the activity of the Holy Spirit upon the religious collective which has been with the Church not only during the times of the Ecumenical Councils, but at all times. Sobornost' in Orthodoxy, which is the life of the Church's people, never had any external juridical signs. Not even the Ecumenical Councils enjoyed indisputable external authority. The infallibility of authority was enjoyed only by the whole Church throughout her whole history, and the bearers and custodians of this authority were the whole people of the Church. The Ecumenical Councils enjoyed their authority not because they conformed with external juridical legal requirements but because the people of the Church, the whole Church recognized them as Ecumenical and genuine. Only that Ecumenical Council is genuine in which there was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit; the outpouring of the Holy Spirit has no external juridical criteria, it is discerned by the people of the Church in accordance with internal spiritual evidence. All this indicates a nonnormative nonjuridical character of the Orthodox Church. Along with this the Orthodox consciousness understands the Church more ontologically, i.e. it doesn't see the Church primarily as an organization and an establishment, not just a society of faithful, but as a spiritual, religious organism, the Mystical Body of Christ. Orthodoxy is more cosmic than Western Christianity. Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism sufficiently expresses the cosmic nature of the Church, as the Body of Christ. Western Christianity is primarily anthropological. But the Church is also the Christianized cosmos; within her, the whole created world is subject to the effect of the grace of the Holy Spirit. Christ's appearance has a cosmic, cosmogonic significance; it signifies somehow a new creation, a new day of the world's creation."
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« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2005, 07:19:23 PM »

Whatever....

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« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2005, 01:11:24 PM »

Quote
The Church's freedom with respect to the State was always precarious, but Orthodoxy always enjoyed freedom within the Church

 
 
This is not exactly true. During the Iconoclast controversy,the Eastern church was not free. Bishops became puppets of the Emperor for fear of execution. Some bishops were appointed from the laity. During this time, the Western church in Rome repeatedly wrote to the Eastern Emperor to restore the Icons to the church. Note this period is an important predecessor to the schism because during this time iconoclasm was contrary to the church tradition and hence while the east was in this 'heretical' mess, the west fought back against the controversy and essentially kept the tradition alive. The confiscation of some churches that were under the Roman 'orthodox' see at the time by the Byzantine emperor happened during this time... as part of the iconoclast movement. When this movement ended and the churches met to reconcile, the west sent a representative who, unfortunately could not speak greek. One of the conditions for reconciliation was a return of the churches to Rome. The translator (Tarasos) left out this request in his reading of the letter.... hence the mistrust between East and West, started with the Iconoclast controversy, was never completely healed. Though I am devout Orthodox, my belief is it takes 'two to tango' in terms of arguments, disagreements, and reconciliation. I hold both East and West accountable for the schism and equally responsible for unity. While I see Orthodoxy as the true faith, the organization of its churches and the leadership to spread it's message is filled with human error, ego, and politics (as all churches). minimally orthodoxy should be united. While Catholicism has some dogmatical differences with Orthodoxy and some executional errors in its liturgical celebration, it has managed to be far more unified, and spread its message to more people. While I do not believe in papal infallibility, the ability of the Pope as a spiritual leader to lead his flock , though not perfect, is very good.

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« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2005, 05:00:03 PM »

The difference is obvious - One is the Liturgical Worship of the Body of Christ, while the other is a symbolic parody. In one - Christ is central. In the other Man is central. You can read about this in the works of St Justin Popovich.
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« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2005, 05:52:12 PM »

Yeah, sure. "Thank you Victoria. Now put your head down."

Like most Orthodox-Catholic comparisons, this collapsed into a posturing battle. Why don't we talk about reality rather than crow over the superiority of our own affiliation?
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« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2005, 06:53:08 PM »

If you want to compare oranges to oranges then compare the liturgical practices in time frames, though the eastern liturgy has not changed that much as the western has.

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« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2005, 11:00:06 PM »

Yeah, sure. "Thank you Victoria. Now put your head down."

Like most Orthodox-Catholic comparisons, this collapsed into a posturing battle. Why don't we talk about reality rather than crow over the superiority of our own affiliation?



I must say that while I am Orthodox I don't talk about it's superiority any longer. There was a time when I did...As I became more involved in the church and learned and studied more, I began to see her 'warts'... politics on parish councils, between parishes, between bishops. I had a much different perception when I was just a parishioner and not a council officer or choir member. In short while the church is supposed to be Christ on earth... it has a long way to go! I have met some individuals - of both Cathollic and Orthodox faiths who embody a humility and passion for Christ and follow his teachings wonderfully. I have also met those who can quote chapter and verse of scripture or canon and somehow, in doing so, they seem to think that alone makes them supreme followers of Christian teaching, or makes up for the fact that their actions speak otherwise. We should beware of this... because the devil can and will easily seduce people into thinking that knowing chapter and verse is the same as following Christ. It is not. Christ's teachings were powerful in their simplicity and applicability to all... and this past Sunday's Gospel lesson reminds us... whoever we do not offer help or sanctuary to, we are doing that to Him. The two churches must offer help and sanctary to each other and heal old wounds... it would be this Gospel made manifest on earth in His church. I find the current Pope to be an inspirational leader. He is definitely trying to reach out. I cannot say the same about the Orthodox Patriarchs, I'm sorry to say. In the end, when each of us passes from this world, we will be judged individually based on what challenges and opportunities we had before us...  not by congregational affiliation, which today are operated as creations of man. Everyone must, at their level or interaction, seek to heal old wounds and  find peace and unity in Christianity, as Christians. 

 

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« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2005, 09:26:52 PM »

The concept of Orthodox Liturgy v Roman Cathollic Mass is utter nonsense. What i say is not my opinion, but the opinion of the Church Fathers. What I do know is that at the Lliturgy, the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ.  If you think the Catholics experience exactly this, then your Orthodoxy is merely a romantic affair with the Byzantine Rite.
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« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2005, 10:06:48 PM »

The concept of Orthodox Liturgy v Roman Cathollic Mass is utter nonsense. What i say is not my opinion, but the opinion of the Church Fathers. What I do know is that at the Lliturgy, the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ. If you think the Catholics experience exactly this, then your Orthodoxy is merely a romantic affair with the Byzantine Rite.

I see we have among us a great and holy elder who has been given the gift of mindreading.  We're very blessed. 

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« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2005, 02:05:11 PM »

Schultz,

Quote
My father, when he was a boy in 1945, used to serve regularly at the 7am Sunday Low Mass, which took less than 40 minutes, according to him and my four uncles, who also regularly assisted at the same Mass (the Beck boys had a monopoly on that particular Mass, apparently).  The way things were done in 1945 is far different than the way things are done in traditionalist parishes today.  Unless you are at least 55 years old, you really have no recollection of the "good old days" and anything you've experienced post-Ecclesia Dei is a romanticized version of pre-Vatican II.

Back in my SSPX days, this wasn't uncommon either (Low Mass said in 30-45 minutes, depending on the Priest.)  So, while your observation about modern-day-traditionalist "romanticism" probably holds some water in some places, I don't think it's universal.  And of course, anything is preferable to the essentially Lutheran service which the Vatican cranked out after Vatican II for popular consumption (and that includes a "said at light speed whisper" low-Mass in Latin with only one server, no sermon, no choir, no nutthin'.)  Now that I think about it, my experiences of the "novus ordo" low-mass weren't exactly elaborate affairs either...so I don't quite see just what the real big deal was, save for a descent into banality (if that's you're "thang".)

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« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2005, 03:49:04 PM »

The Anglican looks at the "speed of liturgy" angle of this with some amusement. Now, I remember doing said eucharists at the chapel and UMCP with just the chaplain, myself, and whatever one or two other stray dogs wandered in. This took about thirty minutes and could be taken as a lower limit, but no Sunday liturgy could be that short unless nobody showed up. A more reasonable lower limit would be about an hour; a well-attended sung service is more likely to be in the 1 1/4 to 1/12 hour range.

Now, one thing that helps to pull Orthodox liturgies down into this range is that Orthodox priests just tend to talk a lot faster than Episcopal priests do. Even ex-Episcopal Orthodox priests talk faster than they used to. This helps to compensate for the wordiness of Orthodox liturgies. Even Rite I in the Episcopal Church is a lot shorter by syllable count than the Orthodox services. Part of the reason for this is unsurprising: almost all of the Western words are in the Eastern rite, plus all those litanies that were inserted in the East.
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« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2005, 08:33:48 PM »

Part of the reason for this is unsurprising: almost all of the Western words are in the Eastern rite, plus all those litanies that were inserted in the East.

"inserted in the East"?  I think we should be careful about how we word things.
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