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Author Topic: God cannot change events in the physical world?  (Read 1160 times) Average Rating: 0
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amartin
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« on: March 09, 2012, 10:03:07 PM »

Greetings.

I was thinking about why/how God allows the suffering of innocent children. For example, thousands die every year from starvation.

To account for this, for a while I believed that God transcends desire, willing, and action.

But from a scientific perspective, could it be possible that God is at such a high vibrational frequency that God cannot automatically change things in the physical realm, which exists at an infinitely lower frequency? For example, spirits can walk through walls but they cannot easily change physical things. Could the same apply to God, but at infinitely higher levels?

Thanks for your input...
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 10:08:01 PM by amartin » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2012, 10:07:24 PM »

God is not any kind of "high vibration frequency". In fact, he is not a being at all, but is beyond all categories of created realities.
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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2012, 10:38:31 PM »

Then lets say, spirit cannot automatically change matter. Opinions?
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2012, 10:59:34 PM »

Transcendent doesn't mean totally disconnected from, that's deist thinking.
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2012, 11:02:58 PM »

Transcendent doesn't mean totally disconnected from, that's deist thinking.

I do believe that God is energetically involved in the spirits of the saints. I didn't mean to sound deist.
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2012, 11:06:59 PM »

Greetings.

I was thinking about why/how God allows the suffering of innocent children. For example, thousands die every year from starvation.

To account for this, for a while I believed that God transcends desire, willing, and action.

But from a scientific perspective, could it be possible that God is at such a high vibrational frequency that God cannot automatically change things in the physical realm, which exists at an infinitely lower frequency? For example, spirits can walk through walls but they cannot easily change physical things. Could the same apply to God, but at infinitely higher levels?

Thanks for your input...

Thousands die from starvation every year, not because there is not enough food, but because some people waste countless amounts of food, while others go hungry.  The death and decay and destruction we see in the world are all the result of sin.  If we are to be free, God must permit us to screw things up.
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2012, 11:06:59 PM »

Then lets say, spirit cannot automatically change matter. Opinions?

God is not spirit, so what would your point be?
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2012, 11:15:39 PM »

Greetings.

I was thinking about why/how God allows the suffering of innocent children. For example, thousands die every year from starvation.

To account for this, for a while I believed that God transcends desire, willing, and action.

But from a scientific perspective, could it be possible that God is at such a high vibrational frequency that God cannot automatically change things in the physical realm, which exists at an infinitely lower frequency? For example, spirits can walk through walls but they cannot easily change physical things. Could the same apply to God, but at infinitely higher levels?

Thanks for your input...

Thousands die from starvation every year, not because there is not enough food, but because some people waste countless amounts of food, while others go hungry.  The death and decay and destruction we see in the world are all the result of sin.  If we are to be free, God must permit us to screw things up.

But if an onlooker has the power to help suffering children, then he must help...
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2012, 11:16:50 PM »

Then lets say, spirit cannot automatically change matter. Opinions?

God is not spirit, so what would your point be?

John 4:24 says: "God is spirit"
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2012, 11:25:51 PM »

"Whatever the LORD pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps."- Psalm 134:6

There's your answer.
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2012, 11:31:48 PM »

Then lets say, spirit cannot automatically change matter. Opinions?
Apparently, God didn't create anything, huh?

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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2012, 01:17:46 AM »

could it be possible that God is at such a high vibrational frequency that God cannot automatically change things in the physical realm
No.

"Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am YHWH, doing all these things." -Isaiah 45

This is "a hard saying" as the Gospels would say, but it is the God of the Hebrews, the God whose Word became incarnate as Christ.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 01:18:52 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2012, 03:30:12 AM »

Greetings.

I was thinking about why/how God allows the suffering of innocent children. For example, thousands die every year from starvation.

To account for this, for a while I believed that God transcends desire, willing, and action.

But from a scientific perspective, could it be possible that God is at such a high vibrational frequency that God cannot automatically change things in the physical realm, which exists at an infinitely lower frequency? For example, spirits can walk through walls but they cannot easily change physical things. Could the same apply to God, but at infinitely higher levels?

Thanks for your input...

Thousands die from starvation every year, not because there is not enough food, but because some people waste countless amounts of food, while others go hungry.  The death and decay and destruction we see in the world are all the result of sin.  If we are to be free, God must permit us to screw things up.

But if an onlooker has the power to help suffering children, then he must help...

And you think God does not help?  That would be quite foolish to believe.  God helps beyond ways you or I can understand.  In fact, when he kills I would say that it is for that person's benefit, even if we don't understand it.  When he permits cancer to ravage someone, it is for that person's benefit.  When he permits tornadoes to destroy homes, it is for the benefit of those people.

But, besides, how much helping do you expect?  Do you expect God to stop every attempt at murder or theft?  Every lie?  Every stupid decision a person tries to make?  How then would we be free agents?
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« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2012, 03:30:12 AM »

Then lets say, spirit cannot automatically change matter. Opinions?

God is not spirit, so what would your point be?

John 4:24 says: "God is spirit"

God is not spirit in the sense that I believe you are using it.  Earlier you made reference to ghosts.  God is not that sort of spirit.  God goes beyond all things physical, and the disembodied spirits are physical before God.  They don't appear physical to us, but they are still physical.  God goes beyond the physical.
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« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2012, 06:37:13 PM »

What makes you think any one of us can comprehend what and why God is doing or not doing something? I think its impossible.

There is a reason for a life of suffering and a reason for great life.

I know evil people dealing drugs living like kings and then i know good saintly people unable to scrape together enough money to buy medication they need to live!

That young man who got hit by a car (and died) on his way to work, how sad. But what if he never got killed, what would he have done next week...maybe the next mass killing in a workplace?
I'm just saying we don't and cant know things like that. the what if scenarios.
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« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2012, 08:30:30 PM »

It took me many years to admit this to myself. If an all-powerful person can save the starving children then he must do so. They die of starvation literally every second around the world. After many years, I have concluded that somehow God cannot directly and automatically control the events of the world. Rather, God works through spiritual influences on receptive souls. That's just my opinion though...
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« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2012, 09:47:34 PM »

It took me many years to admit this to myself. If an all-powerful person can save the starving children then he must do so. They die of starvation literally every second around the world. After many years, I have concluded that somehow God cannot directly and automatically control the events of the world. Rather, God works through spiritual influences on receptive souls. That's just my opinion though...
I share some of your thoughts. God the father is detached from creation in a sense. But god the son entered it to heal and set it strait. The full realization of the healing affects won't be seen until the judgement though. This view is categorized as orthodox cosmology.

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God works through spiritual influences on receptive souls. That's just my opinion though...
That is correct. Those who are receptive are those who choose to be baptized and receive the holy spirit of god.
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« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2012, 10:49:26 PM »

Then lets say, spirit cannot automatically change matter. Opinions?
God is not spirit, so what would your point be?
John 4:24 says: "God is spirit"
God is not spirit in the sense that I believe you are using it.  Earlier you made reference to ghosts.  God is not that sort of spirit.  God goes beyond all things physical, and the disembodied spirits are physical before God.  They don't appear physical to us, but they are still physical.  God goes beyond the physical.

God is spirit. God is not a spirit.
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« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2012, 11:29:28 PM »


Then lets say, spirit cannot automatically change matter. Opinions?

Some food for thought for you, amartin:

As a virgin you gave birth, and a virgin you remained by nature, your womb giving birth painlessly; for He who was born of you renewed the laws of nature, since when God wills it, nature’s order is overthrown.

Without seed you gave birth in time to the timeless Son of the Father, O Mother of God. O, strange wonder! You nourished Him at your breast while remaining a virgin.

God, the Creator of all things, became incarnate through you, O pure Virgin Mother, uniting our human nature to Himself.

Conception without seed, birth beyond comprehension from a mother who never knew a man, child bearing undefiled, for nature is renewed by the birth of God. Therefore with true worship all generations magnify you as Mother and Bride of God.

Lots more where that came from.  Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2012, 01:07:41 AM »

Greetings.

I was thinking about why/how God allows the suffering of innocent children. For example, thousands die every year from starvation.

To account for this, for a while I believed that God transcends desire, willing, and action.

But from a scientific perspective, could it be possible that God is at such a high vibrational frequency that God cannot automatically change things in the physical realm, which exists at an infinitely lower frequency? For example, spirits can walk through walls but they cannot easily change physical things. Could the same apply to God, but at infinitely higher levels?

Thanks for your input...

From a scientific standpoint the higher the frequency the lower the shelf life (so to speak, in grocery store terminology). God is outside of time so frequency is not applicable. You might rethink this perspective.

In regard to suffering, I have a number of viewpoints on this, some like yours but many totally at odds with your viewpoint. They could use some coalescing but I think I would reject the outcome as mental masturbation.

In one viewpoint, perhaps non-Orthodox, the greatest meaning and beauty in our lives stems from suffering. If you stick around long enough you will find posters that have overcome suffering on a spiritual level. Their posts will be quite distinct from all of the others and you should take the opportunity to read them even though they not be relevant at this particular time of your life.
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« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2012, 02:01:54 AM »


In one viewpoint, perhaps non-Orthodox, the greatest meaning and beauty in our lives stems from suffering.

I would literally say that this is the worst thing that I have ever heard.
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2012, 03:05:31 AM »


In one viewpoint, perhaps non-Orthodox, the greatest meaning and beauty in our lives stems from suffering.

I would literally say that this is the worst thing that I have ever heard.

Not really.  I, like many other people, have experienced a somewhat substantial amount of suffering.  It is that suffering that forms who you are, that builds up character, that creates values and meaning in life.  If you have no suffering, if you live a nice happy life for ever and for always, you can never grow as a person.
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2012, 03:33:13 AM »

Christ did not come to simply take away suffering in a physical sense.  He became part of suffering, and showed us how suffering can be taken away in a spiritual manner, so that when it comes our time to suffer (and there is not one person in this world who does not suffer, whether you think they're living the life or not), we actually rejoice in our sufferings, for it's via suffering that builds character:

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Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

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Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

Quote from: His Eminence the Late Metropolitan Dr. Paulos Mar Gregorius' Love's Freedom
In a human person’s life, suffering is the most personal and intimate experience. Descartes definitely took the wrong starting point when he began with his “I think, therefore I am”. For most ordinary people, barring the academics, what they could say would be more like: “I think, therefore I am, I think....”. They would lack that Cartesian certainty about their thinking activity, which is easier for thinkers far removed from every day life. Whereas, if he had started with “I suffer, therefore I am” he would probably have come to quite different conclusions; at least he would have made more sense to common people. Because my suffering is my own, in a particularly intimate way, and I can never doubt it, even if others do not quite see it. The universal I is much more a sufferer than a thinker. I think Milan Kundera, the Czech philosopher-novelist said that in his Immortality.

...

We can indeed distinguish between suffering voluntarily chosen, such as in asceticism, and in a great deal of parental affection, and in personal sacrifice for the sake of others; suffering imposed by other human beings either by mistake or by intention or even because of ignorance; suffering caused by what previous generations have done to make our inherited physical and social environment what it is; suffering due to lack and want, including lack of love and care; suffering induced by compassion for the suffering of others; suffering brought on by one’s own folly and unwisdom; suffering caused by accidents, natural or otherwise; suffering that arises from one’s station in life; suffering caused by the stress and strain of present living; suffering as anxiety, boredom and persistent sense of guilt; suffering due to the structures of present injustice, and so on.

What the Christian tradition has taught me is not to ask for the cause of individual suffering, or to resolve philosophically the problem of unmerited suffering. My task is to use suffering that comes my way, for the exercise of self-discipline and compassion. I do not know why we have to suffer, but I know that where there has been no suffering there is no development of character. I know that compassion is learned and taught by entering into the suffering of others and by letting others share one’s own suffering, to a certain extent. Suffering seems to be Love’s way, at least in this world.

Suffering does not open the door by itself. The key has to be turned; suffering has to be transmuted by love. Hate and despair can turn it into poison. I am grateful to God that however close I came to despair in my suffering -filled adolescence, I did not give up. My little faith helped me to cling on in hope.

Suffering is the key to the mystery of existence in this world. That is why God himself, supposedly free from all suffering, decided to come and partake of it Himself. Thereby lies the Grand Mystery. God suffers, in Christ, in us, even today.
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2012, 03:35:57 AM »


In one viewpoint, perhaps non-Orthodox, the greatest meaning and beauty in our lives stems from suffering.

I would literally say that this is the worst thing that I have ever heard.

One would have to be naïve and unbroken, so to speak, not to understand Opus' point.

Makes me think of a Bo Bergman poem I once sang.
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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2012, 06:03:10 AM »

I think we are co creators together with God, in regards to our own life. That is, our faith determines our destiny. People who are born in afrika are met with poverty and ignorance, and they do not expect more in their life so they die in poverty and ignorance as well.

You can't honestly say they are poor because we are rich. White man came to give them a more proper government and values, but they despised it and now they are running around chopping each others heads off and other stupid things. I would say the same for India.
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« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2012, 06:16:44 AM »

No... And yes God can change events.. God is the creator of both Spirit and Matter , he is both and beyond them, Personal and Impersonal, incomprehensible.
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« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2012, 08:02:15 AM »

"We do not expect God to put things right...that is, to undo the tragedy, or to change things, but to do something - not to the events, but to us - so that things may be what they are; we are no longer the same, and we can face [tragedy] in quite a different way." - Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
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« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2012, 11:09:41 AM »

No... And yes God can change events.. God is the creator of both Spirit and Matter , he is both and beyond them, Personal and Impersonal, incomprehensible.

It seems to me true that the devil seeks to lure as away from God in order that we should suffer the natural forces - everything from bodily affliction to weather to the oppression by flesh. He does this mainly by a judgemental attitude if I am not mistaken, and this kind of mind also brings with it the temptation of passions.

We see also in Genesis that before the fall man was not subject to the created world.
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« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2012, 11:34:04 AM »

I think we are co creators together with God, in regards to our own life. That is, our faith determines our destiny. People who are born in afrika are met with poverty and ignorance, and they do not expect more in their life so they die in poverty and ignorance as well.

You can't honestly say they are poor because we are rich. White man came to give them a more proper government and values, but they despised it and now they are running around chopping each others heads off and other stupid things. I would say the same for India.

Actually it is neither because man is rich or white man gave more proper government and values, but because there isn't enough people to actually do some hands-on social work with the people who need them.  It's not about the money or the government, but mission and interaction.  Mission work gets the job done.  You don't throw money and supplies and expect them to learn to do it.  But you immerse yourself in their suffering and help them deal with it, grow out of it, become stronger despite it, and maybe make their society a better place because of you being there.
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« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2012, 12:16:18 PM »

Actually it is neither because man is rich or white man gave more proper government and values, but because there isn't enough people to actually do some hands-on social work with the people who need them.  It's not about the money or the government, but mission and interaction.  Mission work gets the job done.  You don't throw money and supplies and expect them to learn to do it.  But you immerse yourself in their suffering and help them deal with it, grow out of it, become stronger despite it, and maybe make their society a better place because of you being there.

Very well said.

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« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2012, 08:04:58 AM »

Greetings.

I was thinking about why/how God allows the suffering of innocent children. For example, thousands die every year from starvation.

To account for this, for a while I believed that God transcends desire, willing, and action.

But from a scientific perspective, could it be possible that God is at such a high vibrational frequency that God cannot automatically change things in the physical realm, which exists at an infinitely lower frequency? For example, spirits can walk through walls but they cannot easily change physical things. Could the same apply to God, but at infinitely higher levels?

Thanks for your input...

The important aspect that you're missing is that we are created in the image of God, meaning we have free will. With free will comes actual consequences for our actions.

Perhaps we'd rather God just allow paper cuts and bruised knees for consequences, but if those were the worst evils the world had to offer, then we'd complain about those as well and question why God would allow them. To put it more succinctly, if the worst possible evil is 5 and God prevents 5, then all 4s would seem like 5s and so on, to the point that God would have to eliminate all free will in order to prevent evil. But if free will doesn't exist, then why create us?

Thus, while God could intervene, He won't always do so because to do so would require Him to go against His own image (i.e. cause God to become a self-contradiction).
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