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Author Topic: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PUSSY RIOT On Trial For Church Protest / Aleksandr Dugin on "Pussy Riots" global blackmail  (Read 18375 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 08, 2012, 06:41:28 PM »

Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers
by Claire Bigg

Public outrage is mounting over the jailing of two Russian women accused of staging an illegal anti-Kremlin performance in Moscow's largest church.

...

Not all Orthodox, however, back the legal assault against Pussy Riot.

Many say they are embarrassed by their church's reaction so far and thousands have signed an open letter calling on Patriarch Kirill, who has yet to react publicly on the matter, to intercede in their favor.

"Most of us believe such behavior in a church is unacceptable," says the letter. "But we consider that the reaction to this incident -- the prosecution, the detention, and the harsh comments by members of the Orthodox Church toward participants of the 'punk prayer' -- has been even more unacceptable."

See more at http://www.rferl.org/content/protesters_demand_release_of_feminist_punk_group_members_russia/24509227.html
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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2012, 07:57:16 PM »


Not all Orthodox, however, back the legal assault against Pussy Riot.



oh dear...
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2012, 10:42:25 PM »

Quote
Another group of sympathizers plans to hold a Mass at Christ the Savior Cathedral on March 9 in support of the jailed activists.

How exactly does that work?

Good to see some faithful standing up for what's right.
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2012, 11:48:54 PM »

Sadly the MP is seen as a joke these days. The MP should apologize for all the criminals that it harbors and should lead an inquisition against them, not some girl band. It should thank the band for exposing the infection that threatens to destroy the Russian Church.
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2012, 10:38:19 AM »

Sadly the MP is seen as a joke these days. The MP should apologize for all the criminals that it harbors and should lead an inquisition against them, not some girl band. It should thank the band for exposing the infection that threatens to destroy the Russian Church.

As a U.S. citizen, I respect people's right to protest peacefully. Breaking into a church or other property, however, isn't peaceful or legal; and I don't see why should it be thought necessary for exposing an infection in the Russian Church. Surely there are ways for protesters to be angry and sin not (Ephesians 4:26). Why should anyone think a protest such as the one depicted was aimed at helping the Russian Church?
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2012, 10:45:16 AM »

Sadly the MP is seen as a joke these days. The MP should apologize for all the criminals that it harbors and should lead an inquisition against them, not some girl band. It should thank the band for exposing the infection that threatens to destroy the Russian Church.

As a U.S. citizen, I respect people's right to protest peacefully. Breaking into a church or other property, however, isn't peaceful or legal; and I don't see why should it be thought necessary for exposing an infection in the Russian Church. Surely there are ways for protesters to be angry and sin not (Ephesians 4:26). Why should anyone think a protest such as the one depicted was aimed at helping the Russian Church?

They didn't break into the church.

And you're missing the point.  By all means, punish the band for "disturbing the peace" or whatever.  However, it appears that the punishment is not fitting the crime, in this case. 
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2012, 10:49:15 AM »

Sadly the MP is seen as a joke these days. The MP should apologize for all the criminals that it harbors and should lead an inquisition against them, not some girl band. It should thank the band for exposing the infection that threatens to destroy the Russian Church.

As a U.S. citizen, I respect people's right to protest peacefully. Breaking into a church or other property, however, isn't peaceful or legal; and I don't see why should it be thought necessary for exposing an infection in the Russian Church. Surely there are ways for protesters to be angry and sin not (Ephesians 4:26). Why should anyone think a protest such as the one depicted was aimed at helping the Russian Church?

They didn't break into anything.  There point was made loud and clear when a peaceful protest was met with strict punishment, yet the Church still loves money from oligarchs and the MP is so infatuated with Putin he can't control himself.   
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2012, 10:54:21 AM »


I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.

I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.



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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2012, 10:57:20 AM »


I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.

I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.


Shameful, yes.

Punishable by seven years in prison, though?
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2012, 10:58:03 AM »

Sadly the MP is seen as a joke these days. The MP should apologize for all the criminals that it harbors and should lead an inquisition against them, not some girl band. It should thank the band for exposing the infection that threatens to destroy the Russian Church.

Wow. Just wow.  Shocked
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2012, 11:04:28 AM »


I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.

I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.


Shameful, yes.

Punishable by seven years in prison, though?

Seven years?  No.  That's too strict.  

However, it shouldn't be simply dismissed.

Perhaps these "mothers" would benefit from some counciling, religious education or community service.

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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2012, 11:10:10 AM »

So the state should be used to enforce your piety?   On the list of crimes happening this hardly even ranks.
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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2012, 11:12:20 AM »


I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.

I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.


Shameful, yes.

Punishable by seven years in prison, though?

Seven years?  No.  That's too strict.  

However, it shouldn't be simply dismissed.

Perhaps these "mothers" would benefit from some counciling, religious education or community service.

And that's what the people behind the petition featured in the OP believe, too.  I have a very soft spot for all kinds of civil disobedience (provided there's an actual cause, even if I disagree with it), but even I think this one goes a bit too far, but that's also because I have a very strong sense of the sacred.  

The reaction by the authorities, both secular and religious, is over the top, IMHO.
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2012, 11:13:05 AM »

These people weren't out to help anyone. They just wanted attention.

It's called disturbing the peace, and of course they'd get punished for it. Don't want to be arrested? Don't disrupt public services.

Their point was to get people interested in their name, of course. And if they have to do that, the music's probably not worth it.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2012, 11:16:39 AM »

These people weren't out to help anyone. They just wanted attention.

It's called disturbing the peace, and of course they'd get punished for it. Don't want to be arrested? Don't disrupt public services.

Their point was to get people interested in their name, of course. And if they have to do that, the music's probably not worth it.  Roll Eyes

Of course, they wanted attention.  They also wanted to call attention to the fact that they are angry and scared about the growing closeness between the church and the state in Russia and that they vehemently disagree with the policies and personage of Putin having as much power as he does.

They knew they would be cited for "disturbing the peace".  That's what civil disobedience is all about.  However, one should possibly be jailed for seven years for doing so.  This is, at most, a misdemeanor.  Their real crime is being critical of Putin and the fact that MP is, in many cases, in his back pocket.
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« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2012, 01:09:39 PM »

These people weren't out to help anyone. They just wanted attention.

It's called disturbing the peace, and of course they'd get punished for it. Don't want to be arrested? Don't disrupt public services.

Their point was to get people interested in their name, of course. And if they have to do that, the music's probably not worth it.  Roll Eyes

So you support the seven years' sentence?
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« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2012, 01:10:52 PM »

Was the ladies' choice of venue objectionable? Sure. But compared to the systemic complicity of the hierarchs with the corrupt Russian state, it's nothing.
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2012, 02:05:58 PM »

I think that they had the right message, but went about it in the wrong way, which did nothing but hurt their argument, and give a face to those in opposition to it. Every ad hominem will be used on those critical of the MP thanks to these girls.

7 years is ridiculous, and I doubt they'll get that.

PP
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2012, 02:10:03 PM »

So the state should be used to enforce your piety?   On the list of crimes happening this hardly even ranks.

My piety?  How's yours?

I would state that dancing on the ambo and ridiculing Orthodox gestures is an insult that was unecessary and didn't further any cause.  To ridicule God in His own house is not acceptable to me.  Perhaps you see it differently, and find what they did is permissable.  That's just a reflection of your piousness.  Smiley

Would you have felt differently if they had actually entered the Altar?  Or would that be okay, as well, because they were trying to make a good point against government corruption?

As for comparing this particular act to other crimes...that's a poor argument...and this OP is strictly in reference to the Pussy Riot, and  their efforts for publicity.
Feel free to start another thread on crimes of the MP, and I will be happy to join in, and support your views.

However, I cannot condone this act against Orthodoxy, MP jurisdiction, or not.

Seven years is too harsh, but, if these girls felt they had a right to demonstrate like this in a church, then the rest of us have a right to state that what they did was wrong.
I still say they should get some sort of community service...and perhaps a class in Orthodoxy.

They could have just as easily performed their stunt outside the church...but, no...they CHOSE to do it within the walls of a church.

Of course, there's always the option of turning the other cheek and letting God deal with them one day...

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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2012, 02:20:00 PM »

Quote
They could have just as easily performed their stunt outside the church...but, no...they CHOSE to do it within the walls of a church
I thought they did all this outside......

PP
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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2012, 02:21:15 PM »


The girls were dancing on the ambo, just in front of the ikonostas.
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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2012, 02:25:30 PM »

So the state should be used to enforce your piety?   On the list of crimes happening this hardly even ranks.

My piety?  How's yours?

I would state that dancing on the ambo and ridiculing Orthodox gestures is an insult that was unecessary and didn't further any cause.  To ridicule God in His own house is not acceptable to me.  Perhaps you see it differently, and find what they did is permissable.  That's just a reflection of your piousness.  Smiley

Would you have felt differently if they had actually entered the Altar?  Or would that be okay, as well, because they were trying to make a good point against government corruption?

As for comparing this particular act to other crimes...that's a poor argument...and this OP is strictly in reference to the Pussy Riot, and  their efforts for publicity.
Feel free to start another thread on crimes of the MP, and I will be happy to join in, and support your views.

However, I cannot condone this act against Orthodoxy, MP jurisdiction, or not.

Seven years is too harsh, but, if these girls felt they had a right to demonstrate like this in a church, then the rest of us have a right to state that what they did was wrong.
I still say they should get some sort of community service...and perhaps a class in Orthodoxy.

They could have just as easily performed their stunt outside the church...but, no...they CHOSE to do it within the walls of a church.

Of course, there's always the option of turning the other cheek and letting God deal with them one day...



Liza,

No one is saying what they did was right.

We are talking about the fallout which also points to the fact that what these girls were talking about is correct.  honestly, I agree with you regarding sentencing them to community service.  That seems about right for a misdemeanor.

But there are apparently serious talks of hard time.  that's what's disgusts Nektarios, myself, and the people behind the petition in the OP.
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« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2012, 02:36:15 PM »


Well if Nektarios had actually read my post (to which he replied) he would have seen that I was also against the 7 year punishment, and didn't warrant his comment.

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« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2012, 03:39:58 PM »

So the state should be used to enforce your piety?   On the list of crimes happening this hardly even ranks.

My piety?  How's yours?

I would state that dancing on the ambo and ridiculing Orthodox gestures is an insult that was unecessary and didn't further any cause.  To ridicule God in His own house is not acceptable to me.  Perhaps you see it differently, and find what they did is permissable.  That's just a reflection of your piousness.  Smiley

Russia is a secular state; people can't be prosecuted (legally) for violating the rules of piety.  That is why I object to using some sort of righteous indignation to feel that these singers must be punished.  So my question was valid - do you feel that secular legal authorities ought to be used to impose your piety?

Would you have felt differently if they had actually entered the Altar?  Or would that be okay, as well, because they were trying to make a good point against government corruption?

Personally?  I think it was in poor taste.  And if you (like me) find their publicity stunt to be in poor taste you can do the exact same thing I'm doing - not consuming their products.  Legally I'm not sure if it makes any difference whether they entered the altar or not.  I never deal with trespass or civil disturbance law for work, so I don't know.  I also don't know how Church ownership works in Russian law.  But regardless Russia is a secular state the and law should be applied according to the law not emotionally.

As for comparing this particular act to other crimes...that's a poor argument...and this OP is strictly in reference to the Pussy Riot, and  their efforts for publicity.
Feel free to start another thread on crimes of the MP, and I will be happy to join in, and support your views.

However, I cannot condone this act against Orthodoxy, MP jurisdiction, or not.

But the two are very related.  In Russian (and Ukrainian) society a large class of people (the hierarchs of the church included) operate with absolute impunity.  These people are committing real crimes that ruin peoples' lives.  In this little stunt nobody was injured, no harm was done and you want the law to be applied?  That is why normal people don't take Orthodoxy seriously in Russia and Ukraine.  As it has been mentioned, the Patriarch hasn't come out on this issue yet - it will be interesting to see what, if anything, comes of it.   

Seven years is too harsh, but, if these girls felt they had a right to demonstrate like this in a church, then the rest of us have a right to state that what they did was wrong.
I still say they should get some sort of community service...and perhaps a class in Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2012, 12:36:56 PM »

I wonder what public and judicial opinion might be in the U. S. if a punk "God Riot" band played anti-abortion songs in an abortion clinic and resisted requests by management there for them to leave.

Hopefully not seven years in prison, but then again the law simply states seven years as the maximum, not the minimum, allowing judicial flexibility given the range of possible events of the type that might occur. For example, few would suppose just a slap on the wrist was sufficient if it was a punk Nazi Riot band in a Mosque or Synagogue, or a punk Polticial Riot band in a government building.

IMO the Church should say publicly, if asked for further public comment, that they are praying for the criminals, but that their fate is in the hands of the state, and that it is impossible to simply say what they did does not matter so much and that they should be let off with a grin and lol without inviting every person with a cause to turn every church, mosque, and synagogue in the country into a potential three ring circus, but that what exactly should or will be done is not a church matter.

If a band wants to play in a cathedral without permission they should build their own or buy a green screen.

Here is a youtube of the original event: http://youtu.be/GCasuaAczKY
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« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2012, 01:14:01 PM »

These people weren't out to help anyone. They just wanted attention.

It's called disturbing the peace, and of course they'd get punished for it. Don't want to be arrested? Don't disrupt public services.

Their point was to get people interested in their name, of course. And if they have to do that, the music's probably not worth it.  Roll Eyes

So you support the seven years' sentence?

Well, no. Not seven years. Maybe a few months in minimum security, and then community service.
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« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2012, 02:59:17 PM »


I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.


I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.





I'm not sure how that was relevant.

Do you know what they're saying in the song?

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« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2012, 03:08:41 PM »

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.
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« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2012, 03:23:32 PM »

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?
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« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2012, 03:50:59 PM »


I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.


I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.





I'm not sure how that was relevant.

Do you know what they're saying in the song?



Which part do think not relevant?
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« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2012, 03:58:54 PM »


I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.


I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.





I'm not sure how that was relevant.

Do you know what they're saying in the song?



Which part do think not relevant?


The part about the mosque. I found it rather unnecessary.
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« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2012, 04:37:05 PM »

Oh...well, my point was that in comparison, the reaction they got from such a demonstration within a "church" is nothing compared to what would have awaited them had they done such a number within a "mosque".

From recent news articles:  Egyptian Court Sentences 17-Year-Old Christian Boy To Three Years In Jail For Cartoons of Mohammad on Facebook

http://jonathanturley.org/2012/04/05/egyptian-court-sentences-17-year-old-christian-boy-to-three-years-in-jail-for-cartoons-of-mohamm-on-facebook/

Everyone is up in arms over these young people (and I also agree that prison is simply too harsh a judgment) however, nobody blinks an eye when it's an Islamic judgment.

Sorry, if you felt it irrelevant.  That's part of a discussion forum.  What's relevant to one poster, isn't to another.
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« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2012, 04:51:29 PM »

Oh...well, my point was that in comparison, the reaction they got from such a demonstration within a "church" is nothing compared to what would have awaited them had they done such a number within a "mosque".

From recent news articles:  Egyptian Court Sentences 17-Year-Old Christian Boy To Three Years In Jail For Cartoons of Mohammad on Facebook

http://jonathanturley.org/2012/04/05/egyptian-court-sentences-17-year-old-christian-boy-to-three-years-in-jail-for-cartoons-of-mohamm-on-facebook/

Everyone is up in arms over these young people (and I also agree that prison is simply too harsh a judgment) however, nobody blinks an eye when it's an Islamic judgment.

Sorry, if you felt it irrelevant.  That's part of a discussion forum.  What's relevant to one poster, isn't to another.


Yes. that's certainly terrible. But it's no secret that the religious laws in the middle east, and the middle east as a whole are/is fairly volatile.
I don't know where you get the idea that Islamic fundamentalism goes unnoticed..

Still, i still don't see the point in bring in the Islam-complaints into this. This is about Russian, "Christian", punk-rock, feminist, protestors.

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« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2012, 06:43:52 PM »

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...
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« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2012, 06:50:06 PM »

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

They are already approaching that much time in custody. 
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« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2012, 06:55:17 PM »

Orthodoxy: we're pro-family, unless you offend our sense of propriety, then you're screwed.
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« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2012, 04:30:33 AM »

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

1-2 months for disturbing the peace? That's an absurdly long sentence. I know people who have disturbed the peace. The cops tell them to shut up and go home or they'll get cited with a municipal ordinance violation and a ticket.
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« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2012, 05:11:40 AM »

I do not know much about the subject, but, there is no denying that what they did is not acceptable in an Orthodox Church; at least from a religious standpoint. Should they be prosecuted? Eh depends. I think that seven years is way to harsh and that making this such a big deal when there are so many other problems that the Patriarch and state could be focusing on instead is a bit stupid. They're just a bunch of rebellious twenty year olds in a band; why not just throw them in jail overnight then forget about the whole thing? Moving forward, the Russian Church seems to be doing the same thing it has always done before the persecution; trying to carefully align itself with the state. But when will they learn that this does not work? This only pushes the people further from the Church. Just look at the Church in the 19th and 20th century when nearly everyone lost hope in it because of the mindless 'support the tsar' propaganda and refusal to recognize the peasants. I think that the Church needs to stay separate from the state and try to just be there for the community or at least try to adapt to the changing times instead of always opposing anything new. I do not know much about His Holiness Kirill, but, I am praying for him and hope that God helps him. I know that right now he is facing many public attacks on his image and is being seen as a joke--especially after his $30,000 fancy watch incident.
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« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2012, 09:27:06 AM »


I think that in this case, community service would suffice.  No? 

Do have something like that in Russia?
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« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2012, 11:03:27 AM »


I think that in this case, community service would suffice.  No? 

Do have something like that in Russia?

Does dropping someone into a Chechen warzone count?
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« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2012, 11:54:31 AM »


Ha!   Wink

That's not my definition of "Community Service".

I was thinking visiting the sick, helping with orphans, etc.
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« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2012, 12:26:22 PM »


I think that in this case, community service would suffice.  No? 

Do have something like that in Russia?

Does dropping someone into a Chechen warzone count?

No. God disapproved of what David did to Uriah, remember?
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« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2012, 06:04:48 PM »

Artlcle from the Independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/plight-of-punk-rockers-turns-russians-against-the-church-7619191.html
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« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2012, 06:16:07 PM »


I wonder if the MP even appreciates that they have exploded this entire incident from a not all that notable incident of inappropriate public disturbance into an internationally reported news item that looks awful for them.
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« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2012, 06:21:50 PM »


I wonder if the MP even appreciates that they have exploded this entire incident from a not all that notable incident of inappropriate public disturbance into an internationally reported news item that looks awful for them.

This issue was also mentioned in a story the Pittsburgh Post Gazette ran today about the watch incident. He dun goofed if he thought this would go away quietly.
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