OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 24, 2014, 11:25:28 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PUSSY RIOT On Trial For Church Protest / Aleksandr Dugin on "Pussy Riots" global blackmail  (Read 18147 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,653


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #90 on: April 27, 2012, 03:34:12 PM »

Does anyone know what the justice system is like in Russia? Is it possible these people can appeal their convictions? Can they get a new lawyer?
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #91 on: April 27, 2012, 03:38:38 PM »

Quote
Taking an ax to icons (that you don't own, of course) would be quite different, that would be the destruction of someone else's property, hardly a victimless crime (though, even then, unless the icon was a thousand years old, 7 years in prison would be a rather draconian sentence, especially considering how easy Lenin and Stalin got off).

Naturally they got off, for the simple reason that they were the ones who had earthly power all throughout their reigns of terror against the Church.

Quote
But you're presenting a bit of a non-sequitur here, all the accused did was go into the church and say a prayerful song. A prayerful song that was offensive to the current regime and a bit unconventional, but just a prayer none the less.

A "prayerful" song? How? It may have been 'prayerful' from the viewpoint of the singers, but the way they acted was blasphemy and sacrilege from the point of view of those whose temple they misused for their protest. The lyrics are beside the point. The moment we say that it should be "OK" for people to do anything they find 'prayerful' in any house of worship they want to enter ... I can only imagine the ensuing chaos.

I think the jailing of the Pussy Riot girls would not even have been noticed and sensationalized, had they not been 1) against Putin (and therefore "good" from the Western media's point of view) and 2) against Russian Orthodoxy (and therefore "good" from the point of view of most in the Anglophone Internet Orthodox world).

I think that the best course of action would be:

1) Sentence the Pussy Riot girls to jail
2) After 1 or 2 years in prison, appeal to the Russian President and the Patriarch for clemency
3) Pardon them

In that way, the demands of mercy and justice would be both met. However, what many in this thread seem to want is for blasphemous acts inside churches to be protected by law. This, no Christian can accept.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 03:42:51 PM by filipinopilgrim » Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #92 on: April 27, 2012, 03:45:21 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.

Perhaps you should reread some of the links and information presented in this thread.  Among people in Russian and other places occupied by the MP, there is a strong belief among many within the Church that jailing the political opponents of the patriarchate is wrong.  Separating a mother from her child because of a political offense is inhumane.  I haven't seen anybody state that they support doing what Pussy Riot did, rather let's keep it in perspective.  Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

Well, let me be the first, I support what they did, it was a victimless crime of conscience. Those who engage in nonviolent protest according to the dictates of their conscience can never be condemned, regardless of how vile or evil one believes their opinions and intentions to be. This is a natural consequence of the freedom of conscience and the free will of man. Even your God gives way before the conscience of man and yields to his free will. And yet, the Bishops seek to destroy this freedom of conscience, which is so sacred that not even an omnipotent God dares interfere.

Maybe, but respect is also important. I don't think that they should have been punished like this, but they did stand in front of the altar. Since they appear to be orthodox themselves they were probably aware that this is not acceptable. The way I see it, it is not so much what they did but rather how they did it.

Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high. Compulsory respect is not respect, it's just fear, and there's no lasting value in that.

Yes, they could have been more politic, but if they had been they wouldn't have had the impact they did. Acts of civil disobedience are supposed to make you uncomfortable, that's the whole point. But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal, in nature and any legal acts against them must inherently be political and not judicial in nature.

Of course, had the MP been more politic, this would have likely went away as well, but their PR team seems to have inherited their skills in diplomacy from Genghis Khan. They may succeed in persecuting these innocent people, but in doing so they will ensure that millions of Russians will never again step foot inside a Russian Orthodox Church; it's been handled so poorly that it went from a slam-dunk PR campaign to a lose-lose situation for the MP and that's just pathetic.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #93 on: April 27, 2012, 04:06:24 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin


Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.

He was pardoned AFTER spending nearly 2 decades in jail. Before that, the Vatican position, widely reported in news reports from the time, is that it deferred to Italian justice.

Try again? How about YOU try again?

And yet, there was forgiveness and a pardon. The Pope wasn't chomping at the bit at the prospect of judicial revenge like some people here seem to think would be a good thing for the Church to do.
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #94 on: April 27, 2012, 04:08:31 PM »

Quote
Taking an ax to icons (that you don't own, of course) would be quite different, that would be the destruction of someone else's property, hardly a victimless crime (though, even then, unless the icon was a thousand years old, 7 years in prison would be a rather draconian sentence, especially considering how easy Lenin and Stalin got off).

Naturally they got off, for the simple reason that they were the ones who had earthly power all throughout their reigns of terror against the Church.

Quote
But you're presenting a bit of a non-sequitur here, all the accused did was go into the church and say a prayerful song. A prayerful song that was offensive to the current regime and a bit unconventional, but just a prayer none the less.

A "prayerful" song? How? It may have been 'prayerful' from the viewpoint of the singers, but the way they acted was blasphemy and sacrilege from the point of view of those whose temple they misused for their protest. The lyrics are beside the point. The moment we say that it should be "OK" for people to do anything they find 'prayerful' in any house of worship they want to enter ... I can only imagine the ensuing chaos.

I think the jailing of the Pussy Riot girls would not even have been noticed and sensationalized, had they not been 1) against Putin (and therefore "good" from the Western media's point of view) and 2) against Russian Orthodoxy (and therefore "good" from the point of view of most in the Anglophone Internet Orthodox world).

I think that the best course of action would be:

1) Sentence the Pussy Riot girls to jail
2) After 1 or 2 years in prison, appeal to the Russian President and the Patriarch for clemency
3) Pardon them

In that way, the demands of mercy and justice would be both met. However, what many in this thread seem to want is for blasphemous acts inside churches to be protected by law. This, no Christian can accept.

So your approach is to destroy what little credibility the MP has left just so you can get your revenge? It is quite strange that the atheist recommends the prudence and restraint that would build confidence in the Russian Church and maintain its influence in Russian society, while the Russian Church and their supporters rush headlong into scandal and their own destruction.

People accuse atheists of trying to destroy Religion, specifically Christianity, but we could never, in our wildest dreams, inflict anywhere near the level damage on the Church that Christians inflict daily when they preach one thing and do another. Just like no one could have undermined Judaism like the Jews did when they had Jesus executed for his blasphemy.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 04:08:43 PM by GiC » Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #95 on: April 27, 2012, 04:09:12 PM »

In that way, the demands of mercy and justice would be both met. However, what many in this thread seem to want is for blasphemous acts inside churches to be protected by law. This, no Christian can accept.

No, but we realize that imprisoning people who offend the dainty sensibilities of a few precious people for extended periods of time is ridiculous. The Soviets did that, remember? I thought we didn't want to be like the Communists. But now apparently it's cool to take an idea from their playbook and incarcerate people for insane lengths of time for trivial offenses.
Logged
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #96 on: April 27, 2012, 04:17:39 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin


Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.

He was pardoned AFTER spending nearly 2 decades in jail. Before that, the Vatican position, widely reported in news reports from the time, is that it deferred to Italian justice.

Try again? How about YOU try again?

And yet, there was forgiveness and a pardon. The Pope wasn't chomping at the bit at the prospect of judicial revenge like some people here seem to think would be a good thing for the Church to do.

Forgiveness and pardon AFTER the judicial system had done its work. In the case at hand, the judicial process isn't finished yet. Let it be finished first before calling for mercy.
Logged
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #97 on: April 27, 2012, 04:18:57 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin


Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.

He was pardoned AFTER spending nearly 2 decades in jail. Before that, the Vatican position, widely reported in news reports from the time, is that it deferred to Italian justice.

Try again? How about YOU try again?

And yet, there was forgiveness and a pardon. The Pope wasn't chomping at the bit at the prospect of judicial revenge like some people here seem to think would be a good thing for the Church to do.

Forgiveness and pardon AFTER the judicial system had done its work. In the case at hand, the judicial process isn't finished yet. Let it be finished first before calling for mercy.

Thank goodness our Lord Jesus Christ doesn't share your attitude.
Logged
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #98 on: April 27, 2012, 04:19:41 PM »

In that way, the demands of mercy and justice would be both met. However, what many in this thread seem to want is for blasphemous acts inside churches to be protected by law. This, no Christian can accept.

No, but we realize that imprisoning people who offend the dainty sensibilities of a few precious people for extended periods of time is ridiculous. The Soviets did that, remember? I thought we didn't want to be like the Communists. But now apparently it's cool to take an idea from their playbook and incarcerate people for insane lengths of time for trivial offenses.

Is blasphemy trivial? The problem is that you're assuming that it is trivial for EVERYONE. Perhaps for people like you, but certainly not for many believers. In a country where thousands of churches were blown up after a concerted Bolshevik campaign of anti-religious ridicule, no, I don't think it's trivial.
Logged
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #99 on: April 27, 2012, 04:22:19 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin


Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.

He was pardoned AFTER spending nearly 2 decades in jail. Before that, the Vatican position, widely reported in news reports from the time, is that it deferred to Italian justice.

Try again? How about YOU try again?

And yet, there was forgiveness and a pardon. The Pope wasn't chomping at the bit at the prospect of judicial revenge like some people here seem to think would be a good thing for the Church to do.

Forgiveness and pardon AFTER the judicial system had done its work. In the case at hand, the judicial process isn't finished yet. Let it be finished first before calling for mercy.

Thank goodness our Lord Jesus Christ doesn't share your attitude.

I do not recognize the fluffy, sentimental, all-luv-and-no-justice Jeezus that you worship.

Our Lord Jesus Christ referred time and again to his era's harsh judicial processes in His parables, without the slightest hint that he condemned these. He did step in to save an adulterer, but only after that adulterer had already gone through the process and was already facing execution.

It is not for the Church to dictate the judicial process, but to follow it, and to temper it with mercy when needed -- but not to supplant it entirely.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 04:25:57 PM by filipinopilgrim » Logged
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #100 on: April 27, 2012, 04:22:55 PM »

In that way, the demands of mercy and justice would be both met. However, what many in this thread seem to want is for blasphemous acts inside churches to be protected by law. This, no Christian can accept.

No, but we realize that imprisoning people who offend the dainty sensibilities of a few precious people for extended periods of time is ridiculous. The Soviets did that, remember? I thought we didn't want to be like the Communists. But now apparently it's cool to take an idea from their playbook and incarcerate people for insane lengths of time for trivial offenses.

Is blasphemy trivial?

From a civil standpoint? Absolutely, except in Muslim countries where they stone or behead blasphemers. Why are you so eager to emulate them?

The problem is that you're assuming that it is trivial for EVERYONE. Perhaps for people like you, but certainly not for many believers.

Then "many believers" need to stop being such delicate little flowers, frankly.

In a country where thousands of churches were blown up after a concerted Bolshevik campaign of anti-religious ridicule, no, I don't think it's trivial.

Oh, that must mean swinging the pendulum the other way and throwing people who make a scene in churches into indefinite detention is a good idea. Maybe we can even set up some camps out in Siberia so they can work off their "blasphemy" with a "penance" of hard labor.
Logged
Punch
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,083



« Reply #101 on: April 27, 2012, 04:23:31 PM »

Yeh, right.  I sure as heck did not invent Hell.

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin


Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.

He was pardoned AFTER spending nearly 2 decades in jail. Before that, the Vatican position, widely reported in news reports from the time, is that it deferred to Italian justice.

Try again? How about YOU try again?

And yet, there was forgiveness and a pardon. The Pope wasn't chomping at the bit at the prospect of judicial revenge like some people here seem to think would be a good thing for the Church to do.

Forgiveness and pardon AFTER the judicial system had done its work. In the case at hand, the judicial process isn't finished yet. Let it be finished first before calling for mercy.

Thank goodness our Lord Jesus Christ doesn't share your attitude.
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #102 on: April 27, 2012, 04:25:37 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin


Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.

He was pardoned AFTER spending nearly 2 decades in jail. Before that, the Vatican position, widely reported in news reports from the time, is that it deferred to Italian justice.

Try again? How about YOU try again?

And yet, there was forgiveness and a pardon. The Pope wasn't chomping at the bit at the prospect of judicial revenge like some people here seem to think would be a good thing for the Church to do.

Forgiveness and pardon AFTER the judicial system had done its work. In the case at hand, the judicial process isn't finished yet. Let it be finished first before calling for mercy.

Thank goodness our Lord Jesus Christ doesn't share your attitude.

I do not recognize the fluffy, sentimental, all-luv-and-no-justice Jeezus that you worship.

You don't believe in a Jesus who grants us salvation from the fires of Hell? That's twisted.

Our Lord Jesus Christ referred time and again to his era's judicial process in His parables, without the slightest hint that he condemned these. He did step in to save an adulterer, but only after that adulterer had already gone through the process and was already facing execution.

You do realize "the process" was throwing rocks at her until she died of blunt trauma, right? The process was hardly complete.

It is not for the Church to dictate the judicial process, but to follow it, and to temper it with mercy when needed -- but not to supplant it entirely.



Yes, so it would be nice if certain organizations would stop drooling at the prospect of making people suffer.
Logged
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #103 on: April 27, 2012, 04:29:01 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin


Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.

He was pardoned AFTER spending nearly 2 decades in jail. Before that, the Vatican position, widely reported in news reports from the time, is that it deferred to Italian justice.

Try again? How about YOU try again?

And yet, there was forgiveness and a pardon. The Pope wasn't chomping at the bit at the prospect of judicial revenge like some people here seem to think would be a good thing for the Church to do.

Forgiveness and pardon AFTER the judicial system had done its work. In the case at hand, the judicial process isn't finished yet. Let it be finished first before calling for mercy.

Thank goodness our Lord Jesus Christ doesn't share your attitude.

So, I take it that even John Paul II didn't have Jesus' attitude? Because, as I've pointed out, he asked for pardon for his would-be killer AFTER the judicial system had done its work. The idea that mercy should be shown after the judicial system has first done its work seems to offend you deeply.
Logged
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #104 on: April 27, 2012, 04:32:16 PM »

Quote
You don't believe in a Jesus who grants us salvation from the fires of Hell? That's twisted.

And what has that got to do with the case in hand? Is anyone about to throw the Pussy Riot girls into the fires of hell?


Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ referred time and again to his era's judicial process in His parables, without the slightest hint that he condemned these. He did step in to save an adulterer, but only after that adulterer had already gone through the process and was already facing execution.

You do realize "the process" was throwing rocks at her until she died of blunt trauma, right? The process was hardly complete.

Uhm, that's why I said she was FACING execution.

Quote
It is not for the Church to dictate the judicial process, but to follow it, and to temper it with mercy when needed -- but not to supplant it entirely.


Yes, so it would be nice if certain organizations would stop drooling at the prospect of making people suffer.

I take it that for you, anyone who wants to see justice done is "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer." If a distinction so basic cannot be understood by your mind, I submit that there is no point discussing "justice" and "mercy" with you in the first place.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 04:33:56 PM by filipinopilgrim » Logged
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #105 on: April 27, 2012, 04:35:19 PM »


Quote
You don't believe in a Jesus who grants us salvation from the fires of Hell? That's twisted.

And what has that got to do with the case in hand? Is anyone about to throw the Pussy Riot girls into the fires of hell?

 Roll Eyes

I am merely glad that Jesus doesn't share your attitude of just punishment first and grace later. Because I doubt anyone would be happy if he threw the entire Church into Hell with the placid remark that we shouldn't worry, we'd get our mercy and salvation after an eternity of torment.

Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ referred time and again to his era's judicial process in His parables, without the slightest hint that he condemned these. He did step in to save an adulterer, but only after that adulterer had already gone through the process and was already facing execution.

You do realize "the process" was throwing rocks at her until she died of blunt trauma, right? The process was hardly complete.

Uhm, that's why I said she was FACING execution.

Yes, that's kind of my point.  Roll Eyes

Quote
It is not for the Church to dictate the judicial process, but to follow it, and to temper it with mercy when needed -- but not to supplant it entirely.


Yes, so it would be nice if certain organizations would stop drooling at the prospect of making people suffer.

I take it that for you, anyone who wants to see justice done is "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."

No. Have we reached the point where we just start screaming and making stuff up about each other now? Is that what I'm sensing?
Logged
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #106 on: April 27, 2012, 04:52:03 PM »


Quote
You don't believe in a Jesus who grants us salvation from the fires of Hell? That's twisted.

And what has that got to do with the case in hand? Is anyone about to throw the Pussy Riot girls into the fires of hell?

 Roll Eyes

I am merely glad that Jesus doesn't share your attitude of just punishment first and grace later. Because I doubt anyone would be happy if he threw the entire Church into Hell with the placid remark that we shouldn't worry, we'd get our mercy and salvation after an eternity of torment.

Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ referred time and again to his era's judicial process in His parables, without the slightest hint that he condemned these. He did step in to save an adulterer, but only after that adulterer had already gone through the process and was already facing execution.

You do realize "the process" was throwing rocks at her until she died of blunt trauma, right? The process was hardly complete.

Uhm, that's why I said she was FACING execution.

Yes, that's kind of my point.  Roll Eyes

Quote
It is not for the Church to dictate the judicial process, but to follow it, and to temper it with mercy when needed -- but not to supplant it entirely.


Yes, so it would be nice if certain organizations would stop drooling at the prospect of making people suffer.

I take it that for you, anyone who wants to see justice done is "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."

No. Have we reached the point where we just start screaming and making stuff up about each other now? Is that what I'm sensing?

And who was it who first said that some organizations are "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."? And who was it who tried to bring the topic of hell into the picture, when all that we're discussing is the question of the proper EARTHLY punishment for those who act blasphemously in churches?

For a laconic student, you say a lot. Unfortunately so much of it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 04:52:55 PM by filipinopilgrim » Logged
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #107 on: April 27, 2012, 04:56:52 PM »


Quote
You don't believe in a Jesus who grants us salvation from the fires of Hell? That's twisted.

And what has that got to do with the case in hand? Is anyone about to throw the Pussy Riot girls into the fires of hell?

 Roll Eyes

I am merely glad that Jesus doesn't share your attitude of just punishment first and grace later. Because I doubt anyone would be happy if he threw the entire Church into Hell with the placid remark that we shouldn't worry, we'd get our mercy and salvation after an eternity of torment.

Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ referred time and again to his era's judicial process in His parables, without the slightest hint that he condemned these. He did step in to save an adulterer, but only after that adulterer had already gone through the process and was already facing execution.

You do realize "the process" was throwing rocks at her until she died of blunt trauma, right? The process was hardly complete.

Uhm, that's why I said she was FACING execution.

Yes, that's kind of my point.  Roll Eyes

Quote
It is not for the Church to dictate the judicial process, but to follow it, and to temper it with mercy when needed -- but not to supplant it entirely.


Yes, so it would be nice if certain organizations would stop drooling at the prospect of making people suffer.

I take it that for you, anyone who wants to see justice done is "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."

No. Have we reached the point where we just start screaming and making stuff up about each other now? Is that what I'm sensing?

And who was it who first said that some organizations are "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."?

Well, gee, I wasn't aware that you were literally the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines. That doesn't seem possible. Are you the computer network at the Chancery which became self-aware on August 29, 1997?


And who was it who tried to bring the topic of hell into the picture, when all that we're discussing is the question of the proper punishment for those who act blasphemously in churches?

It's called an "analogy". Heard of them before?

For a laconic student, you say a lot. Unfortunately so much of it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.


I'm sorry you aren't able to follow a simple metaphor.
Logged
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 2,914


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #108 on: April 27, 2012, 05:05:24 PM »

Quote
Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high
In this case, I was talking more about respect for the church building. It is a sacret place, and as you don't starts yelling inside a library because to hate the librairian, I don't think that they should have sung that song inside the church.
 
Quote
But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal,
But they were still offending people. Sometimes, it must be considered whether one has crossed the line. I don't think Pussy Riot meant to hurt anybody, but they did and in that case I think that it should at least be considered whether or not this could have been done in a different way.

Mind you GiC, that I do agree that the women have been treated rather unjustly and that this in the end will only do harm to the Russian Church.
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #109 on: April 27, 2012, 05:09:17 PM »

Quote
Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high
In this case, I was talking more about respect for the church building. It is a sacret place, and as you don't starts yelling inside a library because to hate the librairian, I don't think that they should have sung that song inside the church.
 
Quote
But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal,
But they were still offending people. Sometimes, it must be considered whether one has crossed the line. I don't think Pussy Riot meant to hurt anybody, but they did and in that case I think that it should at least be considered whether or not this could have been done in a different way.

Mind you GiC, that I do agree that the women have been treated rather unjustly and that this in the end will only do harm to the Russian Church.

Wait, people actually were injured by this? I hadn't heard that at all. What happened?
Logged
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 2,914


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #110 on: April 27, 2012, 05:12:42 PM »

Quote
Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high
In this case, I was talking more about respect for the church building. It is a sacret place, and as you don't starts yelling inside a library because to hate the librairian, I don't think that they should have sung that song inside the church.
 
Quote
But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal,
But they were still offending people. Sometimes, it must be considered whether one has crossed the line. I don't think Pussy Riot meant to hurt anybody, but they did and in that case I think that it should at least be considered whether or not this could have been done in a different way.

Mind you GiC, that I do agree that the women have been treated rather unjustly and that this in the end will only do harm to the Russian Church.

Wait, people actually were injured by this? I hadn't heard that at all. What happened?

No no, "hurted" like making people sad. Maybe, I should have used another word. 
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #111 on: April 27, 2012, 05:15:27 PM »

Quote
Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high
In this case, I was talking more about respect for the church building. It is a sacret place, and as you don't starts yelling inside a library because to hate the librairian, I don't think that they should have sung that song inside the church.
 
Quote
But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal,
But they were still offending people. Sometimes, it must be considered whether one has crossed the line. I don't think Pussy Riot meant to hurt anybody, but they did and in that case I think that it should at least be considered whether or not this could have been done in a different way.

Mind you GiC, that I do agree that the women have been treated rather unjustly and that this in the end will only do harm to the Russian Church.

Wait, people actually were injured by this? I hadn't heard that at all. What happened?

No no, "hurted" like making people sad. Maybe, I should have used another word. 

Oh, ok. Yeah, my first thought was surprise that nobody had brought up Pussy Riot managing to injure people. I have to admit, Pussy Riot hurting people's feelings doesn't particularly outrage me.
Logged
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 2,914


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #112 on: April 27, 2012, 05:22:55 PM »

Quote
Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high
In this case, I was talking more about respect for the church building. It is a sacret place, and as you don't starts yelling inside a library because to hate the librairian, I don't think that they should have sung that song inside the church.
 
Quote
But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal,
But they were still offending people. Sometimes, it must be considered whether one has crossed the line. I don't think Pussy Riot meant to hurt anybody, but they did and in that case I think that it should at least be considered whether or not this could have been done in a different way.

Mind you GiC, that I do agree that the women have been treated rather unjustly and that this in the end will only do harm to the Russian Church.

Wait, people actually were injured by this? I hadn't heard that at all. What happened?

No no, "hurted" like making people sad. Maybe, I should have used another word. 

Oh, ok. Yeah, my first thought was surprise that nobody had brought up Pussy Riot managing to injure people. I have to admit, Pussy Riot hurting people's feelings doesn't particularly outrage me.

Of course, but as far as I have understood, they protested against the Patriarch's and the Church's involvement in politics. They could have protested outside the church or the Patriarchs residence or something.

Now when I think about it, "hurted" was a really bad choice of words. Maybe I should have said offended instead.
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #113 on: April 27, 2012, 05:37:37 PM »

Quote
Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high
In this case, I was talking more about respect for the church building. It is a sacret place, and as you don't starts yelling inside a library because to hate the librairian, I don't think that they should have sung that song inside the church.
 
Quote
But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal,
But they were still offending people. Sometimes, it must be considered whether one has crossed the line. I don't think Pussy Riot meant to hurt anybody, but they did and in that case I think that it should at least be considered whether or not this could have been done in a different way.

Mind you GiC, that I do agree that the women have been treated rather unjustly and that this in the end will only do harm to the Russian Church.

Wait, people actually were injured by this? I hadn't heard that at all. What happened?

No no, "hurted" like making people sad. Maybe, I should have used another word. 

Oh, ok. Yeah, my first thought was surprise that nobody had brought up Pussy Riot managing to injure people. I have to admit, Pussy Riot hurting people's feelings doesn't particularly outrage me.

Of course, but as far as I have understood, they protested against the Patriarch's and the Church's involvement in politics. They could have protested outside the church or the Patriarchs residence or something.

Now when I think about it, "hurted" was a really bad choice of words. Maybe I should have said offended instead.

Oh, I agree. Protesting outside or at his residence would have been vastly more appropriate. Protesting inside the church was a wrong call. But still I'd say it is something that would net you a night in custody, a routine march past a judge and a fine or a week or two in jail at most.

I mean, emotions over the extremely inappropriate political display in a cathedral aside, what did they do? They made a spectacle of themselves, disrupted what was happening at the time in the church, and made people angry. That's it, as far as I know. Now people are very upset about the "blasphemy" and "desecration" (I think at most you would say it was "sacrilege", but whatever), but what does that have to do with their time in prison and Russian criminal justice? Are we seriously taking religious canon law into consideration in the Russian courts? Because they do that in Iran, Saudi Arabia and other Islamic nations, and the rest of the world strongly condemns that type of jurisprudence.
Logged
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 2,914


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #114 on: April 27, 2012, 05:46:56 PM »

Quote
Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high
In this case, I was talking more about respect for the church building. It is a sacret place, and as you don't starts yelling inside a library because to hate the librairian, I don't think that they should have sung that song inside the church.
 
Quote
But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal,
But they were still offending people. Sometimes, it must be considered whether one has crossed the line. I don't think Pussy Riot meant to hurt anybody, but they did and in that case I think that it should at least be considered whether or not this could have been done in a different way.

Mind you GiC, that I do agree that the women have been treated rather unjustly and that this in the end will only do harm to the Russian Church.

Wait, people actually were injured by this? I hadn't heard that at all. What happened?

No no, "hurted" like making people sad. Maybe, I should have used another word. 

Oh, ok. Yeah, my first thought was surprise that nobody had brought up Pussy Riot managing to injure people. I have to admit, Pussy Riot hurting people's feelings doesn't particularly outrage me.

Of course, but as far as I have understood, they protested against the Patriarch's and the Church's involvement in politics. They could have protested outside the church or the Patriarchs residence or something.

Now when I think about it, "hurted" was a really bad choice of words. Maybe I should have said offended instead.

Oh, I agree. Protesting outside or at his residence would have been vastly more appropriate. Protesting inside the church was a wrong call. But still I'd say it is something that would net you a night in custody, a routine march past a judge and a fine or a week or two in jail at most.

I mean, emotions over the extremely inappropriate political display in a cathedral aside, what did they do? They made a spectacle of themselves, disrupted what was happening at the time in the church, and made people angry. That's it, as far as I know. Now people are very upset about the "blasphemy" and "desecration" (I think at most you would say it was "sacrilege", but whatever), but what does that have to do with their time in prison and Russian criminal justice? Are we seriously taking religious canon law into consideration in the Russian courts? Because they do that in Iran, Saudi Arabia and other Islamic nations, and the rest of the world strongly condemns that type of jurisprudence.

Of course not. I too think that this case have been blown completely out of proportions. It makes me really sad and I wish that the Church could just forgive them, so we can forget about all this. I don't think the Church is helping these women in any way by letting them go to prison.
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #115 on: April 27, 2012, 05:56:11 PM »

Of course not. I too think that this case have been blown completely out of proportions. It makes me really sad and I wish that the Church could just forgive them, so we can forget about all this. I don't think the Church is helping these women in any way by letting them go to prison.

It isn't about helping these women.  The church is a department of the Kremlin.  These ladies mocked the Kremlin and its messiah.  An example must be made of them.  Such is how the system works in the USSR. 
Logged
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 2,914


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #116 on: April 27, 2012, 06:01:44 PM »

Of course not. I too think that this case have been blown completely out of proportions. It makes me really sad and I wish that the Church could just forgive them, so we can forget about all this. I don't think the Church is helping these women in any way by letting them go to prison.

It isn't about helping these women.  The church is a department of the Kremlin.  These ladies mocked the Kremlin and its messiah.  An example must be made of them.  Such is how the system works in the USSR. 

When I say helping, I mean that it won't do them any good. It will most likely just draw them further away from Christianity.

P.S. Can't we just call it Russia? The government may be authoritarian, but it is not exactly socialist.
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #117 on: April 27, 2012, 06:06:04 PM »

Of course not. I too think that this case have been blown completely out of proportions. It makes me really sad and I wish that the Church could just forgive them, so we can forget about all this. I don't think the Church is helping these women in any way by letting them go to prison.

It isn't about helping these women.  The church is a department of the Kremlin.  These ladies mocked the Kremlin and its messiah.  An example must be made of them.  Such is how the system works in the USSR. 

When I say helping, I mean that it won't do them any good. It will most likely just draw them further away from Christianity.

P.S. Can't we just call it Russia? The government may be authoritarian, but it is not exactly socialist.

The USSR never really was socialist.  The point that you are missing is that the mission of the Russian Orthodox Church is to support the Kremlin and be a bulwark against Jews and other nefarious forces in society.  Salvation of souls and Christians type things are best left to local protestants. 
Logged
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 2,914


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #118 on: April 27, 2012, 06:13:48 PM »

Of course not. I too think that this case have been blown completely out of proportions. It makes me really sad and I wish that the Church could just forgive them, so we can forget about all this. I don't think the Church is helping these women in any way by letting them go to prison.

It isn't about helping these women.  The church is a department of the Kremlin.  These ladies mocked the Kremlin and its messiah.  An example must be made of them.  Such is how the system works in the USSR. 

When I say helping, I mean that it won't do them any good. It will most likely just draw them further away from Christianity.

P.S. Can't we just call it Russia? The government may be authoritarian, but it is not exactly socialist.

The USSR never really was socialist.  The point that you are missing is that the mission of the Russian Orthodox Church is to support the Kremlin and be a bulwark against Jews and other nefarious forces in society.  Salvation of souls and Christians type things are best left to local protestants. 
Don't you think you are overreacting just a little bit? Surely there must be some part of the russian clergy who desires the salvation of their flocks.
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #119 on: April 27, 2012, 06:21:15 PM »

Of course not. I too think that this case have been blown completely out of proportions. It makes me really sad and I wish that the Church could just forgive them, so we can forget about all this. I don't think the Church is helping these women in any way by letting them go to prison.

It isn't about helping these women.  The church is a department of the Kremlin.  These ladies mocked the Kremlin and its messiah.  An example must be made of them.  Such is how the system works in the USSR. 

When I say helping, I mean that it won't do them any good. It will most likely just draw them further away from Christianity.

P.S. Can't we just call it Russia? The government may be authoritarian, but it is not exactly socialist.

The USSR never really was socialist.  The point that you are missing is that the mission of the Russian Orthodox Church is to support the Kremlin and be a bulwark against Jews and other nefarious forces in society.  Salvation of souls and Christians type things are best left to local protestants. 
Don't you think you are overreacting just a little bit? Surely there must be some part of the russian clergy who desires the salvation of their flocks.

Of course there are many great members of the lower clergy and even a few members of the episcopacy that don't see themselves as Soviet Bureaucrats.  Things seem to have changed since the elections though.  My own gut feeling is that there is a lot more pressure from above to be political and cast certain people as enemies of the Church due to their political beliefs.  On the whole though, I'd say the Russian Orthodox Church sees itself as a secular institution with a mission tied to the Kremlin.  Again, exceptions exist, but not as many as there ought to be. 
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #120 on: April 27, 2012, 06:38:41 PM »

Quote
Respect is only important when it is honestly earned, no person is entitled to respect by virtue of their office, no matter how high
In this case, I was talking more about respect for the church building. It is a sacret place, and as you don't starts yelling inside a library because to hate the librairian, I don't think that they should have sung that song inside the church.

Well, it's good to hear you meant the Church and not Putin or the Patriarch. Wink

Quote
Quote
But so long as they do not destroy your property or cause bodily harm to your person, their actions are political, not criminal,
But they were still offending people. Sometimes, it must be considered whether one has crossed the line. I don't think Pussy Riot meant to hurt anybody, but they did and in that case I think that it should at least be considered whether or not this could have been done in a different way.

Mind you GiC, that I do agree that the women have been treated rather unjustly and that this in the end will only do harm to the Russian Church.

The protest was a probably a stupid move, if for no other reason than had the MP played this properly, had they risen above the politics, expressed forgiveness, and used this as a teaching opportunity, the protest would have backfired and had the opposite of the intended effect. Unless...

If they knew that this is how the MP would respond and were willing to be martyrs to advance their cause, I must say it was a stroke of genius. However, I find that unlikely, it was probably just a poorly planned publicity stunt. But, disagreeing with the tactics used or even the opinions expressed in a protest has never before stopped me from defending their rights...even when a part of me would rather see them shot. Wink
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #121 on: April 27, 2012, 07:02:43 PM »


Quote
You don't believe in a Jesus who grants us salvation from the fires of Hell? That's twisted.

And what has that got to do with the case in hand? Is anyone about to throw the Pussy Riot girls into the fires of hell?

 Roll Eyes

I am merely glad that Jesus doesn't share your attitude of just punishment first and grace later. Because I doubt anyone would be happy if he threw the entire Church into Hell with the placid remark that we shouldn't worry, we'd get our mercy and salvation after an eternity of torment.

Quote
Our Lord Jesus Christ referred time and again to his era's judicial process in His parables, without the slightest hint that he condemned these. He did step in to save an adulterer, but only after that adulterer had already gone through the process and was already facing execution.

You do realize "the process" was throwing rocks at her until she died of blunt trauma, right? The process was hardly complete.

Uhm, that's why I said she was FACING execution.

Yes, that's kind of my point.  Roll Eyes

Quote
It is not for the Church to dictate the judicial process, but to follow it, and to temper it with mercy when needed -- but not to supplant it entirely.


Yes, so it would be nice if certain organizations would stop drooling at the prospect of making people suffer.

I take it that for you, anyone who wants to see justice done is "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."

No. Have we reached the point where we just start screaming and making stuff up about each other now? Is that what I'm sensing?

And who was it who first said that some organizations are "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."? And who was it who tried to bring the topic of hell into the picture, when all that we're discussing is the question of the proper EARTHLY punishment for those who act blasphemously in churches?

You make a very good point there. What is the proper earthly punishment for a crime against heaven? Which brings about a more fundamental question, do earthly courts even have jurisdiction to try crimes against heaven? Should not the laws of God be subject to his justice alone and not to the whims of a usurper? Or are Russia's trial judges all vicars of Christ capable of infallible and perfect justice in accordance with the mind of God?

When you allow blasphemy trials, you must logically concede that the Judge has lawful jurisdiction over God himself. For in a trial you must have two parties, one who caused harm and one who endured harm. One party is the person accused, the other party must naturally be the person the crime was committed against, in the case of blasphemy: God.

Of course, we wouldn't expect God to attend the trial in the flesh, he just sends one of his lawyers to represent him before the court so the court can decide if the accused did, indeed, cause harm to one of the divine persons. Now I have great respect for and a rather exalted view of the law and the judiciary (in theory at least), but to extend their jurisdiction and place them above God and Heaven? I might have expected that from Nietzsche, but the admission that men have jurisdiction over laws and will of God seems pretty remarkable coming from a Christian.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
ilyazhito
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 847



« Reply #122 on: April 30, 2012, 10:23:54 AM »

I think that those involved in Pussy Riot should pay a fine for hooliganism, and do ecclesiastical penance and community service. That way, they will be un-doing the damage that they did to society.
Logged
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,924



« Reply #123 on: April 30, 2012, 11:32:54 AM »

If they knew that this is how the MP would respond and were willing to be martyrs to advance their cause, I must say it was a stroke of genius. However, I find that unlikely, it was probably just a poorly planned publicity stunt.

I find it very likely. It is widely known that the MP still runs according to the old Communist mentality... While I consider it a shame for Orthodoxy how the MP behaves in this issue (if I was the Patriarch, then I'd openl forgive the young ladies and call for their immediate release), it doesn't come as a surprise to me.
Logged
ilyazhito
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 847



« Reply #124 on: April 30, 2012, 11:38:13 AM »

If they knew that this is how the MP would respond and were willing to be martyrs to advance their cause, I must say it was a stroke of genius. However, I find that unlikely, it was probably just a poorly planned publicity stunt.

I find it very likely. It is widely known that the MP still runs according to the old Communist mentality... While I consider it a shame for Orthodoxy how the MP behaves in this issue (if I was the Patriarch, then I'd openl forgive the young ladies and call for their immediate release), it doesn't come as a surprise to me.
+1! Kudos to those who also suggest that. Even the senior priest, Mikhail Ryazantsev, would not discipline them through the civil legal system.
Logged
vasily
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox church in america
Posts: 184



« Reply #125 on: May 01, 2012, 10:08:11 AM »

Christ is Risen!

 This entire incident was dealt with incorrectly. The way it was handled only added resentment on both sides. The Patriarch of Moscow should have initiated a meeting with these individuals and discussed their grievances. Instead, the uncalled actions by a few were blown out of proportion. The punishment should have been x amount of hours of community service. For example, cleaning the inside of Christ the Saviour Cathedral, under strict supervision, or attending structured lectures about the New Martyrs and exactly what took place with the Orthodox Church under Communism. It is a very fine line with the Russian Orthodox Church, considering the tumultuous period under Communism and the now growing secularism from the West.

 The following was written by Abbot Tryphon, from the "morning offering blogspot". I feel the article puts things into perspective and addresses other important factors to be considered.

"Our courts have aggressively moved to push the Christian Faith further from the public forum. Attacks toward public displays of religious themes, such as the Ten Commandments, the Nativity Creches, and even crosses from the graves of soldiers, have increasingly become the norm. There is even a movement to force the police and fire department chaplains to remove the cross from their badges, something we've all vowed to resist. This aggressive move towards secularism has increasingly become a part of American foreign policy, with the move to pressure other countries to follow our lead. Just as the Russian Revolution was supported, in the very beginning, by the anti-monarchist sentiments of the American government, so too, are we seeing an increase in the negative attitudes of the American government towards the rise in power and influence, of the Russian Orthodox Church. At a time when our government leaders are pushing Christianity from the public forum, we criticize the Russian government because of it's close ties with the Russian Orthodox Church. We even question the sincerity of Russian leaders Orthodox Faith, perhaps because we know that many of our leaders have put on the veneer of being Christian for political survival. Russians know the dangers of aggressive secularism, having suffered seventy years of state sponsored atheism, and many Russians look with amazement at what they see as American capitulation to a secularism that has promoted a sort of state atheism of it's own. That the Moscow Patriarchate would seek the prosecution of the group pussy riot, for the desecration of Christ the Saviour Cathedral, with their "punk at prayer", invasion of tis sacred temple of GOd, has been greeted by so many Americans as a simple fact of childishness that should be forgiven, is further indication of just how far we have fallen as a Christian nation. We no longer see anything as a sacrilege, because we hold nothing to be sacred. The Moscow Patriarchate has announced a "war on aggressive liberalism", and called upon believers to fight the "anti-clerical forces" and "false values of aggressive liberalism". The Patriarch will not sit back complacently, and watch a replay of the rise of anti-Church forces that hurled the Russian people into the dark days of the Communist aggression against the Church, and against believers. The same forces that are aggressively seeking to discredit the clergy, divide Russian society, and turn Russians away from their temples, is at work in the United States."
(The rest of the article can be found on the website mentioned above.)
Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,759


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #126 on: June 30, 2012, 04:39:20 PM »

"Russian Orthodox church spokesman Vsevolod Chaplin said God told him in a divine revelation that he condemns members of female punk band Pussy Riot for their scandalous performance in Christ the Savior Cathedral.

'I am convinced that God condemns what they’ve done. I’m convinced that this sin will be punished in this life and the next,' the priest told reporters during a round table organized by The New Times magazine.
 
Chaplin added that 'God revealed this to me just like he revealed the Gospels to the church.”


Source: http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/06/god-condemns-pussy-riot-church-official-says/

With spokesmen like these, who needs enemies?
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"Simply put, if you’re not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it goodbye, you can’t be my disciple."
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,558



WWW
« Reply #127 on: July 02, 2012, 12:21:18 AM »


Wow!  That's quite some ego.

What of forgiveness?  Punished in this life and the next? 

Their actions were offensive but, unforgivable?  Really?
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,759


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #128 on: July 02, 2012, 12:35:35 AM »

I honestly wonder what sort of groupthink goes on in the MP that would produce such behavior.

That's some serious blasphemy.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 12:36:23 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"Simply put, if you’re not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it goodbye, you can’t be my disciple."
Babalon
Resident Occultist
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Gnosis
Jurisdiction: A.'.A.'.
Posts: 233


I am everywhere the centre.


WWW
« Reply #129 on: July 03, 2012, 01:48:20 AM »

I love checking in on this thread. These perverse delusions of "justice" being thrown around are well worth the Internet time.   Cool
Logged

LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,558



WWW
« Reply #130 on: July 20, 2012, 04:53:23 PM »


The trio, part of a band called Pussy Riot, will now stay in pre-trial detention for a further six months, until 12 January 2013.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18921225

The Orthodox Church has asked for the women to be treated severely.



Just seems overly harsh. 

They should of gotten some community service and called it done.

Insisting someone be treated "severely", just seems un-Orthodox.

 
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Babalon
Resident Occultist
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Gnosis
Jurisdiction: A.'.A.'.
Posts: 233


I am everywhere the centre.


WWW
« Reply #131 on: July 20, 2012, 11:31:39 PM »


The trio, part of a band called Pussy Riot, will now stay in pre-trial detention for a further six months, until 12 January 2013.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18921225

The Orthodox Church has asked for the women to be treated severely.



Just seems overly harsh. 

They should of gotten some community service and called it done.

Insisting someone be treated "severely", just seems un-Orthodox.

 

I don't think major religious organizations, of any color, have ever been very good at living out their word.
Logged

Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,924



« Reply #132 on: July 21, 2012, 08:17:03 AM »

If the church does not have mercy anymore, who does? What has happened with this world?

Legal experts say that even under Russian law, the girls should only receive a fine, not a jail sentence.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #133 on: July 21, 2012, 07:02:14 PM »


I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.

I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.




I agree wholeheartedly. And I agree with a ten year sentence with hard labor in jail or in a Siberian prison camp, although I would agree to lessen the sentence by a year or two for sincere repentance and good behavior in prison.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 07:09:07 PM by stanley123 » Logged
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,924



« Reply #134 on: July 22, 2012, 10:56:55 AM »

Let's all get real please. I understand that some people were offended. I was not - in fact, they never said anything against Christ or any teaching of the Church, they only attacked two persons - President Putin and Patriarch Kyrill.

Now they behaved in a Church otherwise than expected, but then again, I am reminded of what Christ did in the temple. Some people then cried "Crucify him".

Back to these singers: I am not an expert on common law in the US, but Russia has civil law - and there is one basic premise of the legal system: Only such punishments can be imposed that already were defined by law at the time the offense took place. So, all personal feelings aside, if they receive a setence of several years in prison, while according to the law, they should only get a fine, than that is scandalous. The judiciary must be independent, rule according to the law, and not be influenced by political interest.
Logged
Tags: music Russian Orthodox Church 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.222 seconds with 72 queries.