OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 01, 2014, 07:29:58 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PUSSY RIOT On Trial For Church Protest / Aleksandr Dugin on "Pussy Riots" global blackmail  (Read 18799 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Babalon
Resident Occultist
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Gnosis
Jurisdiction: A.'.A.'.
Posts: 233


I am everywhere the centre.


WWW
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2012, 05:57:29 AM »

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 05:58:23 AM by Babalon » Logged

laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2012, 06:58:46 PM »

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.



That, and they haven't even been charged yet. This is 1 1/2 months of pretrial detention.
Logged
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,301



« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2012, 07:33:50 PM »

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.



That, and they haven't even been charged yet. This is 1 1/2 months of pretrial detention.

So?  It is Russia and not the United States.  Perhaps people will think a bit more before they pull their stupid stunts in a Church.  And yes, I would feel the same way if a group called Penis Riot would have done the same thing in a Mosque. There are just some places that should be free of this kind of BS.
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
Nicene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 597


« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2012, 07:42:42 PM »

I don't know that they deserve such a harsh punishment but they certaintly didn't have the right to do this in the church.
Logged

Thank you.
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2012, 07:45:06 PM »

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.



That, and they haven't even been charged yet. This is 1 1/2 months of pretrial detention.

So?  It is Russia and not the United States.

And Greenland is closely tied to Denmark.

So what? What a random factoid for you to present.


  Perhaps people will think a bit more before they pull their stupid stunts in a Church.

Yes, um, because people will be afraid of a Church and State that doesn't tolerate political expression and responds to trivial incidents of public disturbance by dumping people in jail without a trial for months.

  And yes, I would feel the same way if a group called Penis Riot would have done the same thing in a Mosque. There are just some places that should be free of this kind of BS.

I rather doubt if something analogous happened in Iran or Saudi Arabia that Internet Christendom would shrug and say that things like this shouldn't be allowed in mosques.
Logged
Zenovia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 777


« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2012, 10:15:24 PM »

I wonder what public and judicial opinion might be in the U. S. if a punk "God Riot" band played anti-abortion songs in an abortion clinic and resisted requests by management there for them to leave.

Hopefully not seven years in prison, but then again the law simply states seven years as the maximum, not the minimum, allowing judicial flexibility given the range of possible events of the type that might occur. For example, few would suppose just a slap on the wrist was sufficient if it was a punk Nazi Riot band in a Mosque or Synagogue, or a punk Polticial Riot band in a government building.

IMO the Church should say publicly, if asked for further public comment, that they are praying for the criminals, but that their fate is in the hands of the state, and that it is impossible to simply say what they did does not matter so much and that they should be let off with a grin and lol without inviting every person with a cause to turn every church, mosque, and synagogue in the country into a potential three ring circus, but that what exactly should or will be done is not a church matter.

If a band wants to play in a cathedral without permission they should build their own or buy a green screen.

Here is a youtube of the original event: http://youtu.be/GCasuaAczKY
 

I watched the video and it is offensive, but after a while I couldn't help but laugh.  How ridiculous, it seems like a high school stunt.   I'm trying to imagine someone doing that in Saint Patricks Cathedral in Manhattan,  and I guess they would be arrested for disturbing the peace.  I don't think  we'd keep them in jail though for even three months, and since jail sometimes turns people into hardened criminals it's really not the best choice.     Undecided  

« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 10:21:52 PM by Zenovia » Logged
Babalon
Resident Occultist
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Gnosis
Jurisdiction: A.'.A.'.
Posts: 233


I am everywhere the centre.


WWW
« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2012, 05:43:25 AM »

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.



That, and they haven't even been charged yet. This is 1 1/2 months of pretrial detention.

So?  It is Russia and not the United States.  Perhaps people will think a bit more before they pull their stupid stunts in a Church.  And yes, I would feel the same way if a group called Penis Riot would have done the same thing in a Mosque. There are just some places that should be free of this kind of BS.
Interesting. You know,  I noticed that you have a "Death to The World " avatar,  and having been personally aquainted with one of the gentlemen who published that zine down here in Costa Mesa, Im pretty taken back by your statement, in relation to your views on "the world ".
How can you rationalize the behaviour of a state who's idea of justice is locking up men and women for voicing their frustrations? I don't deny the the fact that these people may have acted inappropriately given the setting, but if we all started handing out punishments for "crimes " of this calibre, to everyone equally, we'd have a lot more dead presidents and religious "leaders " on our hands.
All in all,  they were being loud and dressed rather humorously.
Logged

Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,212


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2012, 06:37:15 AM »

I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church. Protest all you want, anywhere you want. But the House of God is Holy, and the Liturgy transcends politics. Perhaps 7 years imprisonment is too harsh. Maybe they should be excommunicated for 7 years  - less or longer -until their Priest has deemed them truly repentant. But then again, my sins are much worse. But I think this display was quite unOrthodox.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2012, 07:13:09 AM »

I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,212


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2012, 07:23:13 AM »

I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2012, 07:52:33 AM »

I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam

The people "protecting" the churches of Moscow would never let you or your family inside a church without much scrutiny. 
Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,212


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2012, 08:45:59 AM »

I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam

The people "protecting" the churches of Moscow would never let you or your family inside a church without much scrutiny. 

OK. Not planning to go to Moscow anytime soon. Just offering my opinion.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 2,948


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2012, 09:36:17 AM »

I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam

The people "protecting" the churches of Moscow would never let you or your family inside a church without much scrutiny. 

Forgive my ignorance but why not?
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2012, 09:59:48 AM »

I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam

The people "protecting" the churches of Moscow would never let you or your family inside a church without much scrutiny.  

Forgive my ignorance but why not?

His wife and children are black and many Russians beat Blacks (including people from Caucasus and Central Asians).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 09:59:59 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 2,948


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2012, 10:06:37 AM »

I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam

The people "protecting" the churches of Moscow would never let you or your family inside a church without much scrutiny.  

Forgive my ignorance but why not?

His wife and children are black and many Russians beat Blacks (including people from Caucasus and Central Asians).

Sad, but isn't some russians caucasian themselves?
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2012, 10:09:56 AM »

I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam

The people "protecting" the churches of Moscow would never let you or your family inside a church without much scrutiny. 

Forgive my ignorance but why not?

His wife and children are black and many Russians beat Blacks (including people from Caucasus and Central Asians).

Sad, but isn't some russians caucasian themselves?

That isn't supposed to be logical.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,672



« Reply #61 on: April 26, 2012, 10:14:28 AM »

I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam

The people "protecting" the churches of Moscow would never let you or your family inside a church without much scrutiny. 

OK. Not planning to go to Moscow anytime soon. Just offering my opinion.


Selam

Yeah, don't bother with Moscow.  I was looking at maybe going to Russia back a few years ago for a vacation.  St. Petersburg looks to be much more beautiful and even cheaper as well!
Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,632



« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2012, 10:26:17 AM »

I agree with Liza on this one. Keep politics out  of the Church.

Say that to Patriarch Cyrill.


I will be glad to, after kissing his hand.


Selam

The people "protecting" the churches of Moscow would never let you or your family inside a church without much scrutiny.  
I'm reminded of anecdotes heard from actually ultra-pious Romanian pilgrims to Russian monasteries. Many  were only let in after it was ascertained that they weren't on board with the ecumenist agenda of the Romanian patriarchate and there were places were they were flatly denied entry. That, I heard, also happened in some places in Greece, but they said it was more common in Russia. But, then again, ironically these tended to be the people that took all of this bs meekly, actually blaming themselves for the "ecumenist sins" of the patriarch etc. I was thinking, they served you right, you spineless %^^%%
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 10:39:44 AM by augustin717 » Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,843


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2012, 12:51:03 PM »

So?  It is Russia
Being a barbarian or ex-barbarian nation wasn't an acceptable excuse in the eyes of St. Paul. Shouldn't be for us.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 12:51:25 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,301



« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2012, 02:48:25 PM »

Sometimes you just have to make an example out of someone.  It may not be fair, but it is often effective.

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.



That, and they haven't even been charged yet. This is 1 1/2 months of pretrial detention.

So?  It is Russia and not the United States.  Perhaps people will think a bit more before they pull their stupid stunts in a Church.  And yes, I would feel the same way if a group called Penis Riot would have done the same thing in a Mosque. There are just some places that should be free of this kind of BS.
Interesting. You know,  I noticed that you have a "Death to The World " avatar,  and having been personally aquainted with one of the gentlemen who published that zine down here in Costa Mesa, Im pretty taken back by your statement, in relation to your views on "the world ".
How can you rationalize the behaviour of a state who's idea of justice is locking up men and women for voicing their frustrations? I don't deny the the fact that these people may have acted inappropriately given the setting, but if we all started handing out punishments for "crimes " of this calibre, to everyone equally, we'd have a lot more dead presidents and religious "leaders " on our hands.
All in all,  they were being loud and dressed rather humorously.
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,086


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2012, 02:50:25 PM »

I think they could have saved themselves some trouble if they had just done the whole thing outside the cathedral. Just saying.  Undecided

That aside, I hope they get out soon. I think they've learned their lesson.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 2,948


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2012, 03:01:17 PM »

Sometimes you just have to make an example out of someone.  It may not be fair, but it is often effective.

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.



That, and they haven't even been charged yet. This is 1 1/2 months of pretrial detention.

So?  It is Russia and not the United States.  Perhaps people will think a bit more before they pull their stupid stunts in a Church.  And yes, I would feel the same way if a group called Penis Riot would have done the same thing in a Mosque. There are just some places that should be free of this kind of BS.
Interesting. You know,  I noticed that you have a "Death to The World " avatar,  and having been personally aquainted with one of the gentlemen who published that zine down here in Costa Mesa, Im pretty taken back by your statement, in relation to your views on "the world ".
How can you rationalize the behaviour of a state who's idea of justice is locking up men and women for voicing their frustrations? I don't deny the the fact that these people may have acted inappropriately given the setting, but if we all started handing out punishments for "crimes " of this calibre, to everyone equally, we'd have a lot more dead presidents and religious "leaders " on our hands.
All in all,  they were being loud and dressed rather humorously.

So what you are saying is that the Church should prevent blasphemy by making people afraid. I'm sorry but that's a very dangerous mindset.
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #67 on: April 26, 2012, 05:03:45 PM »

Sometimes you just have to make an example out of someone.  It may not be fair, but it is often effective.

A view common in totalitarian regimes. But I don't think Russia or the Russian Church would find a rule by fear strategy very effective.
Logged
Babalon
Resident Occultist
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Gnosis
Jurisdiction: A.'.A.'.
Posts: 233


I am everywhere the centre.


WWW
« Reply #68 on: April 27, 2012, 01:01:19 AM »

Sometimes you just have to make an example out of someone.  It may not be fair, but it is often effective.

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.



That, and they haven't even been charged yet. This is 1 1/2 months of pretrial detention.

So?  It is Russia and not the United States.  Perhaps people will think a bit more before they pull their stupid stunts in a Church.  And yes, I would feel the same way if a group called Penis Riot would have done the same thing in a Mosque. There are just some places that should be free of this kind of BS.
Interesting. You know,  I noticed that you have a "Death to The World " avatar,  and having been personally aquainted with one of the gentlemen who published that zine down here in Costa Mesa, Im pretty taken back by your statement, in relation to your views on "the world ".
How can you rationalize the behaviour of a state who's idea of justice is locking up men and women for voicing their frustrations? I don't deny the the fact that these people may have acted inappropriately given the setting, but if we all started handing out punishments for "crimes " of this calibre, to everyone equally, we'd have a lot more dead presidents and religious "leaders " on our hands.
All in all,  they were being loud and dressed rather humorously.

So what you are saying is that the Church should prevent blasphemy by making people afraid. I'm sorry but that's a very dangerous mindset.

I don't know when i said that and quite frankly, the idea of "preventing blasphemy" is a moronic concept to begin with. Not to mention impossible..

What i am saying is that while they were perhaps disrespectful, their offense was not worthy of a jail sentence. Simple as that.

A fine should be paid, and if we really wanted to get extreme- then maybe they should be banned from that cathedral..

I don't care what country they're in, my principle point is that their punishment was an overreaction.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 01:05:02 AM by Babalon » Logged

Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 2,948


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #69 on: April 27, 2012, 01:44:34 AM »

Sometimes you just have to make an example out of someone.  It may not be fair, but it is often effective.

They definitely do deserve a prison sentence, but 7 years is way too extreme.

And what kind of sentence would you see as "fitting" for this horrendous crime?

Probably something like 1-2 months, not long at all...

Right... So people who, at worst, "disturb the peace" by being disruptive deserve to spend an average of 1 1/2 months in jail?

Am i reading this right?

Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, it's not Disneyland.



That, and they haven't even been charged yet. This is 1 1/2 months of pretrial detention.

So?  It is Russia and not the United States.  Perhaps people will think a bit more before they pull their stupid stunts in a Church.  And yes, I would feel the same way if a group called Penis Riot would have done the same thing in a Mosque. There are just some places that should be free of this kind of BS.
Interesting. You know,  I noticed that you have a "Death to The World " avatar,  and having been personally aquainted with one of the gentlemen who published that zine down here in Costa Mesa, Im pretty taken back by your statement, in relation to your views on "the world ".
How can you rationalize the behaviour of a state who's idea of justice is locking up men and women for voicing their frustrations? I don't deny the the fact that these people may have acted inappropriately given the setting, but if we all started handing out punishments for "crimes " of this calibre, to everyone equally, we'd have a lot more dead presidents and religious "leaders " on our hands.
All in all,  they were being loud and dressed rather humorously.

So what you are saying is that the Church should prevent blasphemy by making people afraid. I'm sorry but that's a very dangerous mindset.

I don't know when i said that and quite frankly, the idea of "preventing blasphemy" is a moronic concept to begin with. Not to mention impossible..

What i am saying is that while they were perhaps disrespectful, their offense was not worthy of a jail sentence. Simple as that.

A fine should be paid, and if we really wanted to get extreme- then maybe they should be banned from that cathedral..

I don't care what country they're in, my principle point is that their punishment was an overreaction.

Look at the commentary above mine. My commentary was a response to Punch.
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
Babalon
Resident Occultist
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Gnosis
Jurisdiction: A.'.A.'.
Posts: 233


I am everywhere the centre.


WWW
« Reply #70 on: April 27, 2012, 10:33:52 AM »

Ah, I see now. Cheesy
It was his strange sentence-placement that threw me off.
Logged

ilyazhito
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 862



« Reply #71 on: April 27, 2012, 11:55:19 AM »


I just watched the video.

I'd like to see them try this in a mosque.

I don't care if they are "religous" or not....this "dance" was a slap in the face of Orthodoxy!

They could have done this outside on the sidewalk and all would have been well.  Demonstrate all you want.  Freedom of speech!

....but, not right in front of the Altar, mimicking and mocking Orthodoxy.

Shameful!

I don't support the MP, or his greediness, but, this was an insult to all of Orthodoxy, not just the MP.


Shameful, yes.

Punishable by seven years in prison, though?
They would probably be assessed an epitimia in the old days. The penalty should be purely ecclesiastical. However, a Moslem man in Italy who broke into a church and was dancing in the altar was fined.
Logged
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2012, 12:18:51 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 12:23:44 PM by filipinopilgrim » Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #73 on: April 27, 2012, 12:40:59 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.

Perhaps you should reread some of the links and information presented in this thread.  Among people in Russian and other places occupied by the MP, there is a strong belief among many within the Church that jailing the political opponents of the patriarchate is wrong.  Separating a mother from her child because of a political offense is inhumane.  I haven't seen anybody state that they support doing what Pussy Riot did, rather let's keep it in perspective.  Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 
Logged
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #74 on: April 27, 2012, 12:47:46 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin


Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.
Logged
Fotina02
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 172



« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2012, 12:57:40 PM »

Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

What daily mockery? Can it be read somewhere online?
Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2012, 01:08:03 PM »

Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

What daily mockery? Can it be read somewhere online?

Strutting around with his expensive watch, fancy cars, etc. Taking people to court for thousands of dollars and then saying in interviews that forgiveness is impossible.  Easter at an MP parish is also entertaining.  A bunch of drunks going to get their moonshine blessed.  But they slip the priest some money, so it is OK. 
Logged
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #77 on: April 27, 2012, 01:26:25 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin


Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 01:27:52 PM by filipinopilgrim » Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #78 on: April 27, 2012, 01:27:55 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.

Perhaps you should reread some of the links and information presented in this thread.  Among people in Russian and other places occupied by the MP, there is a strong belief among many within the Church that jailing the political opponents of the patriarchate is wrong.  Separating a mother from her child because of a political offense is inhumane.  I haven't seen anybody state that they support doing what Pussy Riot did, rather let's keep it in perspective.  Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

Well, let me be the first, I support what they did, it was a victimless crime of conscience. Those who engage in nonviolent protest according to the dictates of their conscience can never be condemned, regardless of how vile or evil one believes their opinions and intentions to be. This is a natural consequence of the freedom of conscience and the free will of man. Even your God gives way before the conscience of man and yields to his free will. And yet, the Bishops seek to destroy this freedom of conscience, which is so sacred that not even an omnipotent God dares interfere.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #79 on: April 27, 2012, 01:29:32 PM »

Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

What daily mockery? Can it be read somewhere online?

Strutting around with his expensive watch, fancy cars, etc. Taking people to court for thousands of dollars and then saying in interviews that forgiveness is impossible.  Easter at an MP parish is also entertaining.  A bunch of drunks going to get their moonshine blessed.  But they slip the priest some money, so it is OK. 

And so, because we don't like the Patriarch or a bishop, then we should feel free to desecrate the churches under them?
Logged
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #80 on: April 27, 2012, 01:31:10 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.

Perhaps you should reread some of the links and information presented in this thread.  Among people in Russian and other places occupied by the MP, there is a strong belief among many within the Church that jailing the political opponents of the patriarchate is wrong.  Separating a mother from her child because of a political offense is inhumane.  I haven't seen anybody state that they support doing what Pussy Riot did, rather let's keep it in perspective.  Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

Well, let me be the first, I support what they did, it was a victimless crime of conscience. Those who engage in nonviolent protest according to the dictates of their conscience can never be condemned, regardless of how vile or evil one believes their opinions and intentions to be. This is a natural consequence of the freedom of conscience and the free will of man. Even your God gives way before the conscience of man and yields to his free will. And yet, the Bishops seek to destroy this freedom of conscience, which is so sacred that not even an omnipotent God dares interfere.

Yes, yes, yes, we understand, Mr. Resident Atheist. Religion is a vile thing, therefore we should feel free to axe icons and defile churches in the name of 'conscience'. After all, no one is "victimized" by such acts (a view that, of itself, presupposes that religious icons and buildings are of no value at all).

I wonder if you'd say the same thing about someone who cuts down a tree.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 01:34:35 PM by filipinopilgrim » Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2012, 01:34:51 PM »

Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

What daily mockery? Can it be read somewhere online?

Strutting around with his expensive watch, fancy cars, etc. Taking people to court for thousands of dollars and then saying in interviews that forgiveness is impossible.  Easter at an MP parish is also entertaining.  A bunch of drunks going to get their moonshine blessed.  But they slip the priest some money, so it is OK. 

And so, because we don't like the Patriarch or a bishop, then we should feel free to desecrate the churches under them?

Where did I say that?  I said that I don't agree with the manner in which Pussy Riot protested, but that they have done for less to desecrate the Church than the MP does on a daily basis. 
Logged
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 2,948


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #82 on: April 27, 2012, 01:41:18 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.

Perhaps you should reread some of the links and information presented in this thread.  Among people in Russian and other places occupied by the MP, there is a strong belief among many within the Church that jailing the political opponents of the patriarchate is wrong.  Separating a mother from her child because of a political offense is inhumane.  I haven't seen anybody state that they support doing what Pussy Riot did, rather let's keep it in perspective.  Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

Well, let me be the first, I support what they did, it was a victimless crime of conscience. Those who engage in nonviolent protest according to the dictates of their conscience can never be condemned, regardless of how vile or evil one believes their opinions and intentions to be. This is a natural consequence of the freedom of conscience and the free will of man. Even your God gives way before the conscience of man and yields to his free will. And yet, the Bishops seek to destroy this freedom of conscience, which is so sacred that not even an omnipotent God dares interfere.

Maybe, but respect is also important. I don't think that they should have been punished like this, but they did stand in front of the altar. Since they appear to be orthodox themselves they were probably aware that this is not acceptable. The way I see it, it is not so much what they did but rather how they did it.
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,473



« Reply #83 on: April 27, 2012, 01:42:45 PM »

Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

What daily mockery? Can it be read somewhere online?

Strutting around with his expensive watch, fancy cars, etc. Taking people to court for thousands of dollars and then saying in interviews that forgiveness is impossible.  Easter at an MP parish is also entertaining.  A bunch of drunks going to get their moonshine blessed.  But they slip the priest some money, so it is OK. 

And so, because we don't like the Patriarch or a bishop, then we should feel free to desecrate the churches under them?

Where did I say that?  I said that I don't agree with the manner in which Pussy Riot protested, but that they have done for less to desecrate the Church than the MP does on a daily basis
Oh?  And can you explain that?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #84 on: April 27, 2012, 02:35:03 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin


Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.
Logged
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #85 on: April 27, 2012, 02:37:09 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.

Perhaps you should reread some of the links and information presented in this thread.  Among people in Russian and other places occupied by the MP, there is a strong belief among many within the Church that jailing the political opponents of the patriarchate is wrong.  Separating a mother from her child because of a political offense is inhumane.  I haven't seen anybody state that they support doing what Pussy Riot did, rather let's keep it in perspective.  Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

Well, let me be the first, I support what they did, it was a victimless crime of conscience. Those who engage in nonviolent protest according to the dictates of their conscience can never be condemned, regardless of how vile or evil one believes their opinions and intentions to be. This is a natural consequence of the freedom of conscience and the free will of man. Even your God gives way before the conscience of man and yields to his free will. And yet, the Bishops seek to destroy this freedom of conscience, which is so sacred that not even an omnipotent God dares interfere.

Yes, yes, yes, we understand, Mr. Resident Atheist. Religion is a vile thing, therefore we should feel free to axe icons and defile churches in the name of 'conscience'. After all, no one is "victimized" by such acts (a view that, of itself, presupposes that religious icons and buildings are of no value at all).

I wonder if you'd say the same thing about someone who cuts down a tree.

If your churches are seriously defiled by something so trivial as an inappropriate outburst by a cranky haranguer, you guys are awfully precious. Equating this with destroying icons and churches and cutting down trees is so absurd as to be laughable.  Cheesy
Logged
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #86 on: April 27, 2012, 02:39:50 PM »

Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

What daily mockery? Can it be read somewhere online?

Strutting around with his expensive watch, fancy cars, etc. Taking people to court for thousands of dollars and then saying in interviews that forgiveness is impossible.  Easter at an MP parish is also entertaining.  A bunch of drunks going to get their moonshine blessed.  But they slip the priest some money, so it is OK. 

And so, because we don't like the Patriarch or a bishop, then we should feel free to desecrate the churches under them?

This is boring. You need to review what your own church body has said constitutes desecration.

Quote
The word desecration is commonly used in regard to churches, altars, chalices, etc.

(1) A church loses its consecration or blessing when the building is destroyed either wholly or in greater part, or when an addition is made to it of larger extent than the original edifice. It does not become desecrated:

(a) if a portion of the walls and roof falls in, provided the main portion stands, or
(b) if all the interior plastering becomes detached, or
(c) if all the crosses disappear, or
(d) if all the walls are gradually renewed, provided on each occasion the old part is greater than the new, or
(e) if converted for a while to profane uses, provided it is not polluted (cf. Many, De Locis Sacris).
(2) An altar (fixed) loses its consecration:

(a) by a notable fracture of table or its support; as, for instance, if the table were broken into two large pieces, or if an anointed corner were broken off, or if the support were seriously impaired, or if one of the columns were displaced;
(b) by removal of the table from its support, so as to disjoint them;
(c) by displacing the relics, or cover of the sepulchre (cf. Schulte, Consecranda, p. 222).
(3) An altar-stone loses its consecration:

(a) by removal of the relics;
(b) by fracture or removal of the cover of the sepulchre;
(c) by a notable fracture of the stone;
(d) by breakage of the anointed corner of stone.
(4) As to the chalice and paten, see ALTAR, under subtitle Loss of Consecration.


Look, I don't see "1(f): If a cranky boor starts ranting at the priests during Mass."
Logged
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #87 on: April 27, 2012, 03:28:26 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.



I guess some of us just aren't obsessed with vengeance as others. My sympathies that the Roman Catholic Church in the Philippines would rather get back at some crazy then actually, I dunno, show some forgiveness and compassion?

But then again, when that assassin wounded Pope John Paul II, he himself was screaming for the guy's execution in accordance with the maximum penalty of the law- oh wait,

Pope John Paul II Forgives His Would-Be Assassin


Too bad that Archdiocese can't take the recently beatified Pope's example.

Really, if you think the best way to "defend the honor of our sanctuaries" is to brutally punish anyone who dares offend you, that is pathetically insecure.

Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin. He also made it clear that Ali Agca would remain in jail in accordance with Italian law.

Agca was in prison for 19 years, from 1981 to 2000, in Italy, in punishment for the attempted assassination. He could have stayed in jail longer had he not received a pardon fron the President of Italy. After that he was deported to Turkey to spend another 10 years in jail for a different crime.

Mercy is important, but so is justice.

1. He was originally sentenced to life.
2. Attacking the Pope was once a capital offense in Italy.
3. He was pardoned at the Pope's specific request, so no, Pope John Paul II did not make it clear that Agca would "remain in jail in accordance with Italian law", because according to Italian law Agca should have been dumped in prison for the rest of his life. Try again.

He was pardoned AFTER spending nearly 2 decades in jail. Before that, the Vatican position, widely reported in news reports from the time, is that it deferred to Italian justice.

Try again? How about YOU try again?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 03:28:50 PM by filipinopilgrim » Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #88 on: April 27, 2012, 03:28:51 PM »

For what it's worth, in my country (the Philippines) a contraceptive and condom activist by the name of Carlos Celdran broke into Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010 during an ecumenical celebration. He carried an insulting placard and shouted at the assembled priests and bishops to "stop getting involved in politics". Actually, what he meant was that the Catholic Church should stop fighting abortion and contraception.

He was arrested and jailed for a night for the crime of offending religious feelings. He is currently free on bail, but is still on trial and is facing 6 years in jail. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila is certainly not backing down from its case against him.

Reading this thread gives me a sense of deja vu. Just as Filipino liberals and feminists applauded the blasphemous act in the Manila Cathedral, so I see on this thread Orthodox who don't care about the severity of blasphemy and who prefer to drink the secular kool-aid about how the Church must conform to secular expectations and never dare to defend itself or to assert its role in society. If this is what Orthodox in the West are now like then I guess they are just as secularized as the Western Catholics and Protestants! At least we Filipino Catholics still know something about how to defend the honor of our sanctuaries. (And, I might add, the Russians too).

Should people be thrown into jail for defiling churches? Yes. Absolutely. That is what ALL Christians would have said before the poison of modern liberalism made Christians ashamed of defending their own dignity.

Perhaps you should reread some of the links and information presented in this thread.  Among people in Russian and other places occupied by the MP, there is a strong belief among many within the Church that jailing the political opponents of the patriarchate is wrong.  Separating a mother from her child because of a political offense is inhumane.  I haven't seen anybody state that they support doing what Pussy Riot did, rather let's keep it in perspective.  Of course nothing Pussy Riot did comes even close to the mockery of New Testament Christianity that the MP daily conducts. Go figure. 

Well, let me be the first, I support what they did, it was a victimless crime of conscience. Those who engage in nonviolent protest according to the dictates of their conscience can never be condemned, regardless of how vile or evil one believes their opinions and intentions to be. This is a natural consequence of the freedom of conscience and the free will of man. Even your God gives way before the conscience of man and yields to his free will. And yet, the Bishops seek to destroy this freedom of conscience, which is so sacred that not even an omnipotent God dares interfere.

Yes, yes, yes, we understand, Mr. Resident Atheist. Religion is a vile thing, therefore we should feel free to axe icons and defile churches in the name of 'conscience'. After all, no one is "victimized" by such acts (a view that, of itself, presupposes that religious icons and buildings are of no value at all).

I wonder if you'd say the same thing about someone who cuts down a tree.

Taking an ax to icons (that you don't own, of course) would be quite different, that would be the destruction of someone else's property, hardly a victimless crime (though, even then, unless the icon was a thousand years old, 7 years in prison would be a rather draconian sentence, especially considering how easy Lenin and Stalin got off). But you're presenting a bit of a non-sequitur here, all the accused did was go into the church and say a prayerful song. A prayerful song that was offensive to the current regime and a bit unconventional, but just a prayer none the less.

And I don't believe I said that religion was a vile thing; quite the contrary, I believe I criticized the bishops for their actions not being in line with the religion to which they give lip service, that's a comment about the value of honesty and consistency not about the value of religion. Or have things changed while I've been gone? Does God now serve the bishops instead of the bishops serving God?

Oh, why should I care if someone cuts down a tree? Provided they own the property the tree is on or have purchased/legally acquired the rights too said tree, shouldn't they have every right to do with it as they please?
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #89 on: April 27, 2012, 03:31:32 PM »


This is boring. You need to review what your own church body has said constitutes desecration.

Quote
The word desecration is commonly used in regard to churches, altars, chalices, etc.

(1) A church loses its consecration or blessing when the building is destroyed either wholly or in greater part, or when an addition is made to it of larger extent than the original edifice. It does not become desecrated:

(a) if a portion of the walls and roof falls in, provided the main portion stands, or
(b) if all the interior plastering becomes detached, or
(c) if all the crosses disappear, or
(d) if all the walls are gradually renewed, provided on each occasion the old part is greater than the new, or
(e) if converted for a while to profane uses, provided it is not polluted (cf. Many, De Locis Sacris).
(2) An altar (fixed) loses its consecration:

(a) by a notable fracture of table or its support; as, for instance, if the table were broken into two large pieces, or if an anointed corner were broken off, or if the support were seriously impaired, or if one of the columns were displaced;
(b) by removal of the table from its support, so as to disjoint them;
(c) by displacing the relics, or cover of the sepulchre (cf. Schulte, Consecranda, p. 222).
(3) An altar-stone loses its consecration:

(a) by removal of the relics;
(b) by fracture or removal of the cover of the sepulchre;
(c) by a notable fracture of the stone;
(d) by breakage of the anointed corner of stone.
(4) As to the chalice and paten, see ALTAR, under subtitle Loss of Consecration.


Look, I don't see "1(f): If a cranky boor starts ranting at the priests during Mass."


I'm not using 'desecration' in the strict, canonical meaning of the term, but with the broader meaning of showing intentional disrespect for churches and icons.

If your conscience is comfortable with defending acts of disrespect inside churches consecrated to the worship of the Triune God, I leave that to you. It certainly makes me wonder if you even have any sense of the sacred.
Logged
Tags: music Russian Orthodox Church 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.224 seconds with 72 queries.