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Author Topic: Orthodox Believers Stand Up For Jailed Anti-Putin Punk Rockers / Members Of Female Punk Band PUSSY RIOT On Trial For Church Protest / Aleksandr Dugin on "Pussy Riots" global blackmail  (Read 19210 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: July 22, 2012, 02:07:30 PM »

Why would you stand up for a few punks acting inappropriately inside of a Church? Sure, they should not be in prison for any longer than a day, but why protest over them and go through all of this trouble?
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« Reply #136 on: July 22, 2012, 02:25:16 PM »

Why would you stand up for a few punks acting inappropriately inside of a Church? Sure, they should not be in prison for any longer than a day, but why protest over them and go through all of this trouble?

1) Because there should be justice for all people, not just for the ones we like.
2) Because no injustice should happen in the name of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #137 on: July 22, 2012, 02:28:53 PM »

Why would you stand up for a few punks acting inappropriately inside of a Church? Sure, they should not be in prison for any longer than a day, but why protest over them and go through all of this trouble?

I don't defend their actions, but I will defend them against gross injustice. I wonder why people defend the thoroughly corrupt, inhuman Moscow Patriarchate, that modern Sanhedrin.
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« Reply #138 on: July 22, 2012, 05:27:10 PM »

Why would you stand up for a few punks acting inappropriately inside of a Church?

Because it's the right thing to do.

For it is written:

"Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse." (Romans 12:14)

"But for your part, love those that hate you, and you will have no enemy". (Didache 1:3)

And these girls aren't even our enemies, bro. They were protesting corruption, albeit in an inappropriate way. The Ruskies want to jail them for 7 years! Such absurdity is not up for debate, it's out the window already.
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« Reply #139 on: July 23, 2012, 12:42:22 AM »

Why would you stand up for a few punks acting inappropriately inside of a Church?

Because it's the right thing to do.

For it is written:

"Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse." (Romans 12:14)

"But for your part, love those that hate you, and you will have no enemy". (Didache 1:3)

And these girls aren't even our enemies, bro. They were protesting corruption, albeit in an inappropriate way. The Ruskies want to jail them for 7 years! Such absurdity is not up for debate, it's out the window already.

We should love and bless criminals as they are human souls, but it is absurd to let them all go free and unpunished and do whatever they want.  I believe that the priests of the Russian Orthodox Church have spent many hard long days and nights studying Holy Scripture, Church teaching, morality and ethics. So I have a lot of respect and reverence for what the Russian Orthodox Church says. And we find that “The Russian Orthodox Church believes all those connected with a recent extravagant performance at the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow should be identified and strictly punished.”
http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/03/orthodox-church-calls-for-punishing-performers-organizers-of-stunt-at-christ-the-savior-cathedral/
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« Reply #140 on: July 23, 2012, 12:47:51 AM »


Quote
You don't believe in a Jesus who grants us salvation from the fires of Hell? That's twisted.

And what has that got to do with the case in hand? Is anyone about to throw the Pussy Riot girls into the fires of hell?

 Roll Eyes

I am merely glad that Jesus doesn't share your attitude of just punishment first and grace later. Because I doubt anyone would be happy if he threw the entire Church into Hell with the placid remark that we shouldn't worry, we'd get our mercy and salvation after an eternity of torment.

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Our Lord Jesus Christ referred time and again to his era's judicial process in His parables, without the slightest hint that he condemned these. He did step in to save an adulterer, but only after that adulterer had already gone through the process and was already facing execution.

You do realize "the process" was throwing rocks at her until she died of blunt trauma, right? The process was hardly complete.

Uhm, that's why I said she was FACING execution.

Yes, that's kind of my point.  Roll Eyes

Quote
It is not for the Church to dictate the judicial process, but to follow it, and to temper it with mercy when needed -- but not to supplant it entirely.


Yes, so it would be nice if certain organizations would stop drooling at the prospect of making people suffer.

I take it that for you, anyone who wants to see justice done is "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."

No. Have we reached the point where we just start screaming and making stuff up about each other now? Is that what I'm sensing?

And who was it who first said that some organizations are "drooling at the prospect of making people suffer."? And who was it who tried to bring the topic of hell into the picture, when all that we're discussing is the question of the proper EARTHLY punishment for those who act blasphemously in churches?

You make a very good point there. What is the proper earthly punishment for a crime against heaven? Which brings about a more fundamental question, do earthly courts even have jurisdiction to try crimes against heaven? Should not the laws of God be subject to his justice alone and not to the whims of a usurper? Or are Russia's trial judges all vicars of Christ capable of infallible and perfect justice in accordance with the mind of God?

When you allow blasphemy trials, you must logically concede that the Judge has lawful jurisdiction over God himself. For in a trial you must have two parties, one who caused harm and one who endured harm. One party is the person accused, the other party must naturally be the person the crime was committed against, in the case of blasphemy: God.

Of course, we wouldn't expect God to attend the trial in the flesh, he just sends one of his lawyers to represent him before the court so the court can decide if the accused did, indeed, cause harm to one of the divine persons. Now I have great respect for and a rather exalted view of the law and the judiciary (in theory at least), but to extend their jurisdiction and place them above God and Heaven? I might have expected that from Nietzsche, but the admission that men have jurisdiction over laws and will of God seems pretty remarkable coming from a Christian.

No, blasphemy is a crime of offensiveness and indecency at large (though it was more akin to sedition originally).
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« Reply #141 on: July 23, 2012, 01:26:27 AM »

I believe that the priests of the Russian Orthodox Church have spent many hard long days and nights studying Holy Scripture, Church teaching, morality and ethics.
I am sure that many of them do. At the same time, I am profoundly convinced that the decision of the MP leadership to ask for a hard punishment, even one not justified by Russian law, was a political decision, rather than one based on prayer and study. After all, it seems like the words of Christ in Luke 6:36 have not been taken into account: "Be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful."

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« Reply #142 on: July 23, 2012, 02:40:12 PM »

We should love and bless criminals as they are human souls
Then you would be against someone falsely claiming divine revelation that someone's actions will be punished in this life and the next, right?

but it is absurd to let them all go free and unpunished and do whatever they want.
That is the job of the secular authorities. We don't need a Christian Church calling for blood and draconian punishment.


I believe that the priests of the Russian Orthodox Church have spent many hard long days and nights studying Holy Scripture, Church teaching, morality and ethics.
Many have. Many have not, probably, or at least not taken it to heart. Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 02:41:36 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #143 on: July 23, 2012, 02:46:13 PM »

Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.
Absolutely.
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« Reply #144 on: July 23, 2012, 02:48:33 PM »

Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.
Absolutely.
So saying that God has revealed the eternal damnation of a few singers to you in the same way that he revealed the Gospels...

That ranks pretty high up there.
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« Reply #145 on: July 23, 2012, 02:56:20 PM »

Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.
Absolutely.
So saying that God has revealed the eternal damnation of a few singers to you in the same way that he revealed the Gospels...

That ranks pretty high up there.
? I am not sure how to respond reasonably to such a silly hypothesis? I already indicated my opinion that their performance was disgraceful, insulting and out of place in a Holy Church, and that I agree with the response of the Holy Russian Orthodox Church to this incident. 
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« Reply #146 on: July 23, 2012, 03:16:03 PM »

Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.
Absolutely.
So saying that God has revealed the eternal damnation of a few singers to you in the same way that he revealed the Gospels...

That ranks pretty high up there.
? I am not sure how to respond reasonably to such a silly hypothesis? I already indicated my opinion that their performance was disgraceful, insulting and out of place in a Holy Church, and that I agree with the response of the Holy Russian Orthodox Church to this incident. 

Well, I suppose it's only right that I agree with you in one thread today...   Wink

Perhaps the sentence is a little harsh.  I personally believe they should have been flogged by Cossacks, but all the same.  Disrespect to the altar deserves a beating.  I have slipped out and said naughty words while burning myself with a censor/candle/etc but didn't do so maliciously, begged God for forgiveness, and if my priest had heard and had decided to beat me I would not have pressed charges.  Such crimes must be punished.  If these skanks had shown any remorse perhaps the Church and the Courts should have forgiven them and let them go with a wrist slapping, but as it is...

Besides, they should feel lucky.  If they had done this in a mosque, as Liza joked about, they probably would have had their heads removed with a dull kitchen knife.
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« Reply #147 on: July 23, 2012, 03:18:22 PM »

Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.
Absolutely.
So saying that God has revealed the eternal damnation of a few singers to you in the same way that he revealed the Gospels...

That ranks pretty high up there.
? I am not sure how to respond reasonably to such a silly hypothesis?

"Russian Orthodox church spokesman Vsevolod Chaplin said God told him in a divine revelation that he condemns members of female punk band Pussy Riot for their scandalous performance in Christ the Savior Cathedral.

'I am convinced that God condemns what they’ve done. I’m convinced that this sin will be punished in this life and the next,' the priest told reporters during a round table organized by The New Times magazine.
 
Chaplin added that 'God revealed this to me just like he revealed the Gospels to the church.”


Source: http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/06/god-condemns-pussy-riot-church-official-says/

With spokesmen like these, who needs enemies?

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« Reply #148 on: July 23, 2012, 03:19:59 PM »


Many have. Many have not, probably, or at least not taken it to heart. Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.

Blasphemy against Putin?
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« Reply #149 on: July 23, 2012, 03:25:43 PM »


Many have. Many have not, probably, or at least not taken it to heart. Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.

Blasphemy against Putin?
I was referring to the blasphemy against God, I.E. claiming divine revelation of someone else's eternal fate for a press release.
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« Reply #150 on: July 23, 2012, 03:27:29 PM »

OK, I'm sorry. ^
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« Reply #151 on: July 23, 2012, 03:48:18 PM »

Blasphemy goes pretty far against Church teaching.
Absolutely.
So saying that God has revealed the eternal damnation of a few singers to you in the same way that he revealed the Gospels...

That ranks pretty high up there.
? I am not sure how to respond reasonably to such a silly hypothesis?

"Russian Orthodox church spokesman Vsevolod Chaplin said God told him in a divine revelation that he condemns members of female punk band Pussy Riot for their scandalous performance in Christ the Savior Cathedral.

'I am convinced that God condemns what they’ve done. I’m convinced that this sin will be punished in this life and the next,' the priest told reporters during a round table organized by The New Times magazine.
 
Chaplin added that 'God revealed this to me just like he revealed the Gospels to the church.”


Source: http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/06/god-condemns-pussy-riot-church-official-says/

With spokesmen like these, who needs enemies?


The article I saw did not say anything about private Divine Revelations.
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9113

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« Reply #152 on: July 23, 2012, 09:57:30 PM »

If they had done this in a mosque, as Liza joked about, they probably would have had their heads removed with a dull kitchen knife.

But, of course, they would not have.
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« Reply #153 on: July 30, 2012, 12:47:44 PM »

Pussy Riot has pled not guilty to all the charges

Quote
Moscow (CNN) -- Three members of the Russian punk rock band Pussy Riot pleaded not guilty Monday to charges of hooliganism after performing a song criticizing President Vladimir Putin in a Moscow church, Russia's state news agency reported.

The charge, which carries a potential seven-year sentence, stems from an unusual performance they gave in February.

"Mother Mary please drive Putin away," the band screamed, their faces covered in neon masks, inside Moscow's Christ Savior Cathedral.

The anonymous, feminist protest band called it a punk prayer.
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« Reply #154 on: July 30, 2012, 01:06:11 PM »

Glory to God!
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« Reply #155 on: July 30, 2012, 03:26:28 PM »

Shameful, yes.

Punishable by seven years in prison, though?
Well in the USA you can get life in prison (actually it is 25 years to life) for stealing one slice of pizza. What pussy riot girls did in a sacred Church seems a lot worse to me than for a hungy man to steal a slice of pizza.
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Stealing-one-slice-of-pizza-results-in-life-3150629.php
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« Reply #156 on: July 30, 2012, 03:31:13 PM »

Shameful, yes.

Punishable by seven years in prison, though?
Well in the USA you can get life in prison (actually it is 25 years to life) for stealing one slice of pizza. What pussy riot girls did in a sacred Church seems a lot worse to me than for a hungy man to steal a slice of pizza.
Two wrongs make a right.
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« Reply #157 on: August 03, 2012, 04:55:24 PM »

This is incredibly disheartening for me.  I speak highly of Orthodoxy to my friends.  For what could I say to them about this?  I agree what they did is shameful and obnoxious but by calling for blood you are fulfilling their prophecy.  That Putin is corrupting the minds of the Church.

Perhaps they do not understand the sacredness of the altar, but perhaps they believe in turn the altar is held captive by insidious political forces, not their mischief.

These girls have been jailed for all this time, and not given a fair trial.  How is this justice?  This charade is damaging the image of the Church, and instead of the Church embracing this women there is a witch trial.

My point is I find what has happened indefensible.
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« Reply #158 on: August 03, 2012, 05:14:08 PM »

Why would you stand up for a few punks acting inappropriately inside of a Church? Sure, they should not be in prison for any longer than a day, but why protest over them and go through all of this trouble?

1) Because there should be justice for all people, not just for the ones we like.
2) Because no injustice should happen in the name of the Orthodox Church.

emphasis added

^ This ^   angel
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« Reply #159 on: August 03, 2012, 05:32:22 PM »

Perhaps they do not understand the sacredness of the altar,

They do. They did not enter it.
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« Reply #160 on: August 03, 2012, 06:57:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I love how serious news reporters keep a straight-laced approach when reporting on this situation and the band name Wink

In regards to the OP issue, seven years in prison? That is Taliban bad yo!!

When they did this same guerrilla gig stunt in Red Square the band was given a realistically small fine.  They probably assumed this sacreligious gig would receive similar punishment.  The Russian government is clearly pandering to the conservative Christian community, even if many Christians think several years in prison is a bit excessive a punishment.  I pray these ladies receive a reasonable punishment, even a few months in jail seems excessive.  I am as Orthodox as anyone, and if some local sort-of-punk band broke into our parish and performed a guerrilla street gig in front of our Altar, I would be crucially offended.  However, I wouldn't let anger overpower sensible judgement, and I wouldn't want that band to have to serve jail time for what is realistically a faux pas more than a crime Sad

As a note of bias, I am a guerrilla street performer, so I support and relate to street music when performed illegally.  You have to be ready to straight RUN so you keep all your gear ready to pack up in an instant, it is a very nervous but rewarding experience to share music with people where music isn't expected.  Further, in this iPod era, it is nice to put live and actual music into people's daily routines, so that we can all share a musical moment together.  However, in a sacred place like a Church or even a synagogue or a mosque, this is blatantly flippant.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #161 on: August 03, 2012, 08:16:12 PM »

I think if I went to liturgy and they jumped up there I might just tackle them.  But I would think them foolish (if not disrespectful) kids, not criminals, do you follow?  They seem to be caught under the thumb of an oppressive regime, not receiving the full extent of a just law under a fair trail.
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« Reply #162 on: August 03, 2012, 09:12:38 PM »

When they did this same guerrilla gig stunt in Red Square the band was given a realistically small fine. They probably assumed this sacreligious gig would receive similar punishment.

Which is precisely why the same sentence would not be appropriate in this second instance.
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« Reply #163 on: August 03, 2012, 09:13:16 PM »

Pussy Riot has pled not guilty to all the charges

Quote
Moscow (CNN) -- Three members of the Russian punk rock band Pussy Riot pleaded not guilty Monday to charges of hooliganism after performing a song criticizing President Vladimir Putin in a Moscow church, Russia's state news agency reported.

The charge, which carries a potential seven-year sentence, stems from an unusual performance they gave in February.

"Mother Mary please drive Putin away," the band screamed, their faces covered in neon masks, inside Moscow's Christ Savior Cathedral.

The anonymous, feminist protest band called it a punk prayer.

Nice contrition and remorse, there.
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« Reply #164 on: August 03, 2012, 09:15:39 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When they did this same guerrilla gig stunt in Red Square the band was given a realistically small fine. They probably assumed this sacreligious gig would receive similar punishment.

Which is precisely why the same sentence would not be appropriate in this second instance.

I agree with that completely, so something like a heavier fine, or court-order probation, or even a few months in jail at the worst, but seven to ten years in prison? Seriously? Those are football numbers!


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #165 on: August 03, 2012, 09:19:02 PM »

Pussy Riot has pled not guilty to all the charges

Quote
Moscow (CNN) -- Three members of the Russian punk rock band Pussy Riot pleaded not guilty Monday to charges of hooliganism after performing a song criticizing President Vladimir Putin in a Moscow church, Russia's state news agency reported.

The charge, which carries a potential seven-year sentence, stems from an unusual performance they gave in February.

"Mother Mary please drive Putin away," the band screamed, their faces covered in neon masks, inside Moscow's Christ Savior Cathedral.

The anonymous, feminist protest band called it a punk prayer.

Nice contrition and remorse, there.

Are we in politics?

Darn.

Oh well, I'll wait till I can take you to task yet again there.
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« Reply #166 on: August 03, 2012, 09:21:05 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When they did this same guerrilla gig stunt in Red Square the band was given a realistically small fine. They probably assumed this sacreligious gig would receive similar punishment.

Which is precisely why the same sentence would not be appropriate in this second instance.

I agree with that completely, so something like a heavier fine, or court-order probation, or even a few months in jail at the worst, but seven to ten years in prison? Seriously? Those are football numbers!


stay blessed,
habte selassie

This is a complete joke. Like in the sad type. Not the funny kind.

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« Reply #167 on: August 04, 2012, 02:05:16 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!






This is a complete joke. Like in the sad type. Not the funny kind.

Excuse me, but what do you mean exactly?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 02:05:51 AM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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我美丽的妻子和我。

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« Reply #168 on: August 04, 2012, 01:31:58 PM »

Russian President Vladimir Putin is asking a court to show leniency for three members of the punk rock band Pussy Riot, who are on trial in Moscow on hooliganism charges.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/03/world/europe/russia-pussy-riot-trial/index.html

While Putin criticized their performance, he said Thursday, "Still, I do not think they should be judged too harshly for that," RIA Novosti reported. He added that he hoped the court makes "the right decision."
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« Reply #169 on: August 04, 2012, 01:42:07 PM »

Yeah. Like he does not control the courts...
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« Reply #170 on: August 05, 2012, 12:15:31 PM »

I wonder what this group was thinking? Obviously, the justice system is very different in Russia. Were they that naive to think that they could pull off this kind of stunt, which was very offensive and blasphemous and not face the consequences? I also don't know why there is so much animosity towards MP. It is not the MP who decides the sentence; it is the court. So instead of making derogatory comments against the Holy Russian Patriarchate why not focus your anger and/or frustration on the Russian justice system. The Holy Orthodox Church in Russia has made tremendous strides under Putin. I give thanks to God that he has supported the Church and continues to do so.

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Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 12:25:10 PM by Fr. Deacon Daniel » Logged

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« Reply #171 on: August 05, 2012, 12:33:14 PM »

I wonder what this group was thinking? Obviously, the justice system is very different in Russia. Were they that naive to think that they could pull off this kind of stunt, which was very offensive and blasphemous and not face the consequences? I also don't know why there is so much animosity towards MP. It is not the MP who decides the sentence; it is the court. So instead of making derogatory comments against the Holy Russian Patriarchate why not focus your anger and/or frustration on the Russian justice system. The Holy Orthodox Church in Russia has made tremendous strides under Putin. I give thanks to God that he has supported the Church and continues to do so.

A friend of mine has close contacts in Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and he told me what happened, but what was not released by media, at least in Poland, because when showed in a big picture the whole act turns out from "anti-Putin" to "ok-Putin", or at least "meh-Putin".

Those girls were catched by the security, pulled away, taken outside of the Church... And leaved free. But the girls instead of leaving the incident and go do other things went home and put everything on the internet, hoping that their "protest" will be seen by the world. It was. When Russians saw the video, the Moscow Patriarchate and Ministry of Internal Affairs was literally flooded wit petitions of Russians demanding finding and arresting those girls. And after this Putin decided to intervene.

So much for the "freedom fighters".
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 12:39:15 PM by Pan Michał » Logged
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« Reply #172 on: August 05, 2012, 09:01:45 PM »

So much for "Love the sinner, hate the sin."
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« Reply #173 on: August 06, 2012, 08:33:28 AM »

So much for "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

I don't hate them. The same as I don't hate drunk drivers. Both did wrong because of their carelessness and should be treated without passion but according to their guilt.
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« Reply #174 on: August 06, 2012, 08:41:48 PM »

So much for "Love the sinner, hate the sin."
The Westboro Baptist Church has been told to keep a certain distance from funerals. Now if they refuse to do so and instead ferociously disrupt a funeral, causing lifelong grief and mental anguish to the relatives of the deceased, should we say let's all have love for those members of the Westboro Baptist Church who disrupted a peaceful funeral. After all, we need to forgive and to love our enemies, so let's forgive them and forget the incident and make sure they receive no punishment? Let us love the sinner. 
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« Reply #175 on: August 07, 2012, 01:55:10 AM »

It is probably time to reinstate the laws against blasphemy as it was in the Roman Empire (in the East)
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« Reply #176 on: August 07, 2012, 09:42:31 AM »

It is probably time to reinstate the laws against blasphemy as it was in the Roman Empire (in the East)

Lord, forbade!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 09:43:38 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #177 on: August 07, 2012, 09:45:32 AM »

So much for "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

I don't hate them. The same as I don't hate drunk drivers. Both did wrong because of their carelessness and should be treated without passion but according to their guilt.

A possible 7 year prison sentence is passionless?
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« Reply #178 on: August 07, 2012, 10:03:29 AM »

A possible 7 year prison sentence is passionless?

If it were 7 hours would it be more passionless? Is time a measure?

Either be obedient to the law, or change it. Do not break it.
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« Reply #179 on: August 07, 2012, 10:09:47 AM »

A possible 7 year prison sentence is passionless?

If it were 7 hours would it be more passionless? Is time a measure?

Either be obedient to the law, or change it. Do not break it.

Sometimes one must break the law in order to point out that a law is unjust.  

A seven year prison sentence for what amounts to disturbing the peace is not only unjust, but it will also put these women in an environment where the only thing they will learn is resentment, hatred, and possibly other more violent criminal behavior.

But your keep your head buried in the sand to the consequences of an over-eager "justice" system that will punish a bunch of teenagers for blasphemy but let the real blasphemers (aka the politicians) receive communion without batting an eyelash.  
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 10:09:59 AM by Schultz » Logged

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