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Author Topic: How can we say God is forgiving?  (Read 1790 times) Average Rating: 0
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jaroslavkourakin
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« on: March 08, 2012, 04:29:37 PM »

Or should I say, why does He punish himself for our sin?

Is he sadistic?

Biblically, even if you repent, you must offer a sin offering. Then, even if you repent, you must accept the sacrifice of Christ. The testimony of the cross is that even if you repent, God will not give up punishment (the definition of forgiveness).

Traces of a forgiving and merciful God can be found throughout the Bible, but these clearly do not belong there. Not if we say Christ died to fulfill the law of eye for an eye and soul for soul. His death and the alleged necessity of it is a testimony against forgiveness and mercy being part of His character.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 04:34:41 PM by jaroslavkourakin » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2012, 04:40:30 PM »

Or should I say, why does He punish himself for our sin?

Punish is the wrong word. He suffered for our sake.

Quote
is he sadistic?

No

Quote
Biblically, even if you repent, you must offer a sin offering. Then, even if you repent, you must accept the sacrifice of Christ. The testimony of the cross is that even if you repent, God will not give up punishment (the definition of forgiveness).

The testimony of the thief on the cross says differently.

Quote
Traces of a forgiving and merciful God can be found throughout the Bible, but these clearly do not belong there. Not if we say Christ died to fulfill the law of eye for an eye and soul for soul. His death and the alleged necessity of it is a testimony against forgiveness and mercy being part of His character.

Only if you misunderstand the nature of salvation. God came to rescue us from ourselves.
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jaroslavkourakin
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2012, 04:50:20 PM »

The testimony of the thief on the cross says differently.

I guess it can say whatever it wants. Jesus said forgive and you will be forgiven, but this is destroying justice which he supposedly died to uphold.

Quote
Only if you misunderstand the nature of salvation. God came to rescue us from ourselves.

I have just understood the Biblical nature of salvation, as that of Isaiah 53. Christ died for the righteous. For had "Forgive, and you will be forgiven" been in accordance with the Biblical God, he would have just said that, and ascended. What's the point of Him dying, if I am forgiven when I forgive myself?
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2012, 05:05:06 PM »

This problem seems a bit irrelevant to the Orthodox understanding of salvation.
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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2012, 05:07:52 PM »

what is your faith background, jaroslav? so we can get a better understanding of where you're coming from...
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2012, 05:09:59 PM »

what is your faith background, jaroslav? so we can get a better understanding of where you're coming from...

Good luck with that.
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2012, 05:14:51 PM »

I think one issue is the belief that forgiveness equals being free from Hades/the place of the dead (Keep in mind there was a distinction between this and Hell). When Jesus said that if you forgive you will be forgiven, I do not think He meant that you will not go to the place of the dead, but simply that God will hold no harsh feelings against you anymore. Jesus died to unite the human flesh with the Divine, and to redeem death; not to pay off some debt so that we would be forgiven.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2012, 10:00:50 AM »

What could see in the crucifixion is that our sins hurt God. We like to see ourselves as having "our" conscience hurt, but the conscience is the image of God and is forever one with God. In that case it is the works of the devil that hurt God, and not 'the Lord' as Isaiah 53 states, unless we take that to be the devil since the OT has a little problem making a difference between the two.

In a similar sense, whenever our consience is hurt, we are more likely to 'look to it', and it is this attention given to it that heals us.

I can't possibly see how this could be a fulfillment of the OT Law, unless it is the fact that the OT Law is entirely anti-conscience, a despicable system of the mind that seeks to kill whatever is true, and the law fulfilled itself when it killed the true God. Granted also that the Christ of the ancient greek initate schools allowed it to happen.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 10:03:37 AM by jaroslavkourakin » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2012, 10:15:55 AM »

what is your faith background, jaroslav? so we can get a better understanding of where you're coming from...

Good luck with that.

i can attest to the fact that he will just ignore the question, as he did with me
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2012, 10:19:03 AM »

what is your faith background, jaroslav? so we can get a better understanding of where you're coming from...

Good luck with that.

i can attest to the fact that he will just ignore the question, as he did with me

Of course he will. He's against the faith, and he's not here to play along with anyone else.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2012, 10:24:39 AM »


Of course he will. He's against the faith, and he's not here to play along with anyone else.  Roll Eyes

Play along with what? "Let us do what the Fathers tell us and not ask any sensible questions?" I can see that working well for others...

The crucifixion is also the story of transcending the flesh, or the conscious mind, which I would imagine was what the greek mystery schools were all about.
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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2012, 10:56:22 AM »


Of course he will. He's against the faith, and he's not here to play along with anyone else.  Roll Eyes

Play along with what? "Let us do what the Fathers tell us and not ask any sensible questions?" I can see that working well for others...

The crucifixion is also the story of transcending the flesh, or the conscious mind, which I would imagine was what the greek mystery schools were all about.

No, they were not.  Roll Eyes Why are you here?
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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2012, 10:57:41 AM »

what is your faith background, jaroslav? so we can get a better understanding of where you're coming from...

Good luck with that.

i can attest to the fact that he will just ignore the question, as he did with me

Of course he will. He's against the faith, and he's not here to play along with anyone else.  Roll Eyes

I see an angry young man who's anger is working hand in hand with his ego which blinds him as he tries to fight against God and get his way.  He doesn't realize he is his own worst enemy.  Been there done that myself.
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2012, 11:00:25 AM »

what is your faith background, jaroslav? so we can get a better understanding of where you're coming from...

Good luck with that.

i can attest to the fact that he will just ignore the question, as he did with me

Of course he will. He's against the faith, and he's not here to play along with anyone else.  Roll Eyes

I see an angry young man who's anger is working hand in hand with his ego which blinds him as he tries to fight against God and get his way.  He doesn't realize he is his own worst enemy.  Been there done that myself.

He is what happens to people who read any and every anti-Christian nonsense that comes along. It's hard to keep your faith. It's easy to bounce around like a ping-pong ball, and to pick on others about it.

I don't know what he's hoping to achieve, except to annoy people. See, he is good at something.
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2012, 11:02:33 AM »

what is your faith background, jaroslav? so we can get a better understanding of where you're coming from...

Good luck with that.

i can attest to the fact that he will just ignore the question, as he did with me

Of course he will. He's against the faith, and he's not here to play along with anyone else.  Roll Eyes

I see an angry young man who's anger is working hand in hand with his ego which blinds him as he tries to fight against God and get his way.  He doesn't realize he is his own worst enemy.  Been there done that myself.

He is what happens to people who read any and every anti-Christian nonsense that comes along. It's hard to keep your faith. It's easy to bounce around like a ping-pong ball, and to pick on others about it.

I don't know what he's hoping to achieve, except to annoy people. See, he is good at something.
know what he is good at though? avoiding the question in his responces
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« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2012, 11:05:58 AM »

Yep.  Cheesy
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« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2012, 12:30:59 PM »

I see an angry young man who's anger is working hand in hand with his ego which blinds him as he tries to fight against God and get his way.  He doesn't realize he is his own worst enemy.  Been there done that myself.

God wants us to be nice little dogs before the rapist rulers. I would rather go with a different God that can give me freedom. Incidentally, I cannot imagine the God of the church to be the true God, and thank God the miserable, pathetic, effeminate, obese and disease laden clergy bear witness of that.
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2012, 12:40:22 PM »

I see an angry young man who's anger is working hand in hand with his ego which blinds him as he tries to fight against God and get his way.  He doesn't realize he is his own worst enemy.  Been there done that myself.

God wants us to be nice little dogs before the rapist rulers. I would rather go with a different God that can give me freedom. Incidentally, I cannot imagine the God of the church to be the true God, and thank God the miserable and pathetic clergy bear witness of that.

I suggest you read some Dorothy Day, who was a devout RC but very much in the forefront of the counterculture movements in the mid-20th century in the United States.  She certainly did not think that God wanted us to be nice little dogs before the rapist rulers but also believed that God gave her more a more perfect freedom than just the political freedom you're looking for.

God bless you on your search.
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2012, 02:29:54 PM »

God wants us to be nice little dogs before the rapist rulers. I would rather go with a different God that can give me freedom. Incidentally, I cannot imagine the God of the church to be the true God, and thank God the miserable, pathetic, effeminate, obese and disease laden clergy bear witness of that.

Careful how you speak of God, boy.
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2012, 02:32:02 PM »

jaroslavkourakin,

Do you realize why you are so angry, what you are angry about, and who you are truly angry with?

Do you realize my question should actually be; Do you realize why you are so afraid, what you are afraid of, and who it truly is that frightens you?

I'm not sure why you 'think' you are here or what you 'think' you are trying to accomplish. Until the above questions are honestly answered neither will you!

I sincerely wish you Peace & Grace. I pray you will persue the true questions that lay in your heart and begin to honestly face your fears.      
 
God bless and keep you! May our Lord show mercy upon us.
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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2012, 04:19:27 PM »

God wants us to be nice little dogs before the rapist rulers. I would rather go with a different God that can give me freedom. Incidentally, I cannot imagine the God of the church to be the true God, and thank God the miserable, pathetic, effeminate, obese and disease laden clergy bear witness of that.

If your "different god" has you believing things like that, I'll be happy to go the other way. Lord have mercy on us. Sad
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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2012, 04:29:31 PM »

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« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2012, 04:39:12 PM »

Quote
God wants us to be nice little dogs before the rapist rulers. I would rather go with a different God that can give me freedom
There actually is one. He'll give you all the freedom you want. The price is a bit steep unfortunately.

Quote
Incidentally, I cannot imagine the God of the church to be the true God
Im not surprised you feel this way.

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and thank God the miserable, pathetic, effeminate, obese and disease laden clergy bear witness of that
Thank God? Which one? The one you dont think is the real one? Or the one you do?

May God have mercy on you. The True One. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

PP
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« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2012, 05:00:45 PM »

Do you realize why you are so angry, what you are angry about, and who you are truly angry with?

Do you realize my question should actually be; Do you realize why you are so afraid, what you are afraid of, and who it truly is that frightens you?

I'm not sure why you 'think' you are here or what you 'think' you are trying to accomplish. Until the above questions are honestly answered neither will you!

I'm not really angry, I'm just trying to decide for myself how I should relate to the rapists their drones in this world. Since I know that God exists, and that he is forgiving, I should be forgiving just as well. I don't however believe I should serve in the society of rapists and their drones. That would be wrong, and even if I am forgiven, it would be something I wouldn't want anyway. And not only that, but I'm pretty sure there is eternal life beyond the worldly order and way of thought.

raped, rap·ing, rapes
1. To force (another person) to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse; commit rape on.
2. To seize and carry off by force.
3. To plunder or pillage.


I think a Christian government employee is about as sensible as Christian homosexual. Does a bad tree bear good fruit? Should we then expect that if we partake in the spirit of rape in the belief that it is necessary to have order in society, that the rapists in the government will not fulfill the number 1 of that definition as well? Which if you look around is exactly how it looks like.

Quote
Thank God? Which one? The one you dont think is the real one? Or the one you do?

May God have mercy on you. The True One. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Those are just names. Who you serve is only evident in one's practice.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 05:01:28 PM by jaroslavkourakin » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2012, 05:22:11 PM »

The testimony of the thief on the cross says differently.

I guess it can say whatever it wants. Jesus said forgive and you will be forgiven, but this is destroying justice which he supposedly died to uphold.

Quote
Only if you misunderstand the nature of salvation. God came to rescue us from ourselves.

I have just understood the Biblical nature of salvation, as that of Isaiah 53. Christ died for the righteous. For had "Forgive, and you will be forgiven" been in accordance with the Biblical God, he would have just said that, and ascended. What's the point of Him dying, if I am forgiven when I forgive myself?

actually that is upholding justice "forgive and you will be forgiven" ..

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« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2012, 05:27:39 PM »

Or should I say, why does He punish himself for our sin?

Is he sadistic?

Biblically, even if you repent, you must offer a sin offering. Then, even if you repent, you must accept the sacrifice of Christ. The testimony of the cross is that even if you repent, God will not give up punishment (the definition of forgiveness).

Traces of a forgiving and merciful God can be found throughout the Bible, but these clearly do not belong there. Not if we say Christ died to fulfill the law of eye for an eye and soul for soul. His death and the alleged necessity of it is a testimony against forgiveness and mercy being part of His character.

Because He loved us.To show us his love and to lit our love , to lit his love in our hearts.
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« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2012, 05:31:19 PM »

actually that is upholding justice "forgive and you will be forgiven" ..

What justice are you talking about then? Eye for an eye is justice. If you believe this is the fundemental principle of God and existence, you must essentially believe that all evil done must be balanced, else the "foundation of the world tremble". Thus God also offered Jesus up to forever balance the scales of Justice, lest we would all have to perish.

The Messiah fulfilled the Law, the Law that says, Eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, and soul for soul.

What's amazing when you look at it, is that suddenly the unforgiving God is forgiving. But in truth he is not forgiving. He is completely merciless, because his Son bore all the punishment for all sin. Not a single sin is forgiven. The punishment has been delivered for all.

v. for·gave (-gv), for·giv·en (-gvn), for·giv·ing, for·gives
v.tr.
1. To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
2. To renounce anger or resentment against.
3. To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).

I do not believe God is just, but He is Holy and forgiving. Justice is of the world, and the prince of the world, and precisely why the tribe of Judge is not redeemed.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 05:34:15 PM by jaroslavkourakin » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2012, 05:31:29 PM »

To lit our love for him.
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« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2012, 05:40:16 PM »

Do you realize why you are so angry, what you are angry about, and who you are truly angry with?

Do you realize my question should actually be; Do you realize why you are so afraid, what you are afraid of, and who it truly is that frightens you?

I'm not sure why you 'think' you are here or what you 'think' you are trying to accomplish. Until the above questions are honestly answered neither will you!

I'm not really angry, I'm just trying to decide for myself how I should relate to the rapists their drones in this world. Since I know that God exists, and that he is forgiving, I should be forgiving just as well. I don't however believe I should serve in the society of rapists and their drones. That would be wrong, and even if I am forgiven, it would be something I wouldn't want anyway. And not only that, but I'm pretty sure there is eternal life beyond the worldly order and way of thought.

raped, rap·ing, rapes
1. To force (another person) to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse; commit rape on.
2. To seize and carry off by force.
3. To plunder or pillage.


I think a Christian government employee is about as sensible as Christian homosexual. Does a bad tree bear good fruit? Should we then expect that if we partake in the spirit of rape in the belief that it is necessary to have order in society, that the rapists in the government will not fulfill the number 1 of that definition as well? Which if you look around is exactly how it looks like.

Quote
Thank God? Which one? The one you dont think is the real one? Or the one you do?

May God have mercy on you. The True One. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Those are just names. Who you serve is only evident in one's practice.

Please Sir, do not mistake my words as a challenge or dispute. I am not, nor will I, engage in such with you. I am merely offering you words as a hand of love and compassion for weather you realize it or not the God we love resides in your heart. So does the darkness and demons of this world. This is true IMHO for us all.
“A black dog and a white dog live in our hearts. The one we feed the most will eventually consume the other.”
Look closer as I did not really claim you were angry. Anger, frustration, loneliness, and even doubt can be manifestations of fear. In my opinion whatever you think you are here for, and engaging in, or better said trying to engage others in, is useless until you face and conquer your fears. Fear is blinding.   
It is out of love, for you are a creation of The Almighty God to which I serve, that I will not engage you any longer in what I see (no disrespect intended) as a disillusioned state. Know however, that I have and will again pray for you with a heavy heart as I was once in a similarly darkened place. 

Peace & Grace
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« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2012, 05:44:31 PM »

actually that is upholding justice "forgive and you will be forgiven" ..

What justice are you talking about then? Eye for an eye is justice. If you believe this is the fundemental principle of God and existence, you must essentially believe that all evil done must be balanced, else the "foundation of the world tremble". Thus God also offered Jesus up to forever balance the scales of Justice, lest we would all have to perish.

The Messiah fulfilled the Law, the Law that says, Eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, and soul for soul.

What's amazing when you look at it, is that suddenly the unforgiving God is forgiving. But in truth he is not unforgiving. He is completely merciless, because his Son bore all the punishment for all sin. Not a single sin is forgiven. The punishment has been delivered for all.

v. for·gave (-gv), for·giv·en (-gvn), for·giv·ing, for·gives
v.tr.
1. To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
2. To renounce anger or resentment against.
3. To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).

There are two sides of Justice , good and bad.. Justice is like a two-edged sword.Justice is a balance, a scale... Forgive and you will be forgiven is of goodness.. It balances what you forgive with your forgiveness.. You forgive you will be forgiven.. It's the same balance of justice as in an eye to an eye, which refers to retaliation... Is just that forgiveness is the good side of Justice...
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« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2012, 05:51:19 PM »

There are two sides of Justice , good and bad.. Justice is like a two-edged sword.Justice is a balance, a scale... Forgive and you will be forgiven is of goodness.. It balances what you forgive with your forgiveness.. You forgive you will be forgiven.. It's the same balance of justice as in an eye to an eye, which refers to retaliation... Is just that forgiveness is the good side of Justice...

Christ did not imply any degrees of forgiveness. He said "If you do not forgive others, the Heavenly Father will not forgive you", meaning, if you do not forgive the greatest offences, you will not be forgiven in the least. Being it also that he demonstrated forgiveness with the crucifixion, in that he had all the justifiable right to kill the sinners, he died in their place so as to forgive them (or show the sign of it), because his Spirit demanded it. "You know not what manner of Spirit you are"


Please Sir, do not mistake my words as a challenge or dispute. I am not, nor will I, engage in such with you. I am merely offering you words as a hand of love and compassion for weather you realize it or not the God we love resides in your heart. So does the darkness and demons of this world. This is true IMHO for us all.
“A black dog and a white dog live in our hearts. The one we feed the most will eventually consume the other.”
Look closer as I did not really claim you were angry. Anger, frustration, loneliness, and even doubt can be manifestations of fear. In my opinion whatever you think you are here for, and engaging in, or better said trying to engage others in, is useless until you face and conquer your fears. Fear is blinding.   
It is out of love, for you are a creation of The Almighty God to which I serve, that I will not engage you any longer in what I see (no disrespect intended) as a disillusioned state. Know however, that I have and will again pray for you with a heavy heart as I was once in a similarly darkened place. 

Peace & Grace


Here is my latest 'thesis' on the evil in this world

http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=203289

Tell me if you sense any fear.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 05:54:20 PM by jaroslavkourakin » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2012, 05:54:57 PM »

actually that is upholding justice "forgive and you will be forgiven" ..

What justice are you talking about then? Eye for an eye is justice. If you believe this is the fundemental principle of God and existence, you must essentially believe that all evil done must be balanced, else the "foundation of the world tremble". Thus God also offered Jesus up to forever balance the scales of Justice, lest we would all have to perish.

The Messiah fulfilled the Law, the Law that says, Eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, and soul for soul.

What's amazing when you look at it, is that suddenly the unforgiving God is forgiving. But in truth he is not forgiving. He is completely merciless, because his Son bore all the punishment for all sin. Not a single sin is forgiven. The punishment has been delivered for all.

v. for·gave (-gv), for·giv·en (-gvn), for·giv·ing, for·gives
v.tr.
1. To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
2. To renounce anger or resentment against.
3. To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).

I do not believe God is just, but He is Holy and forgiving. Justice is of the world, and the prince of the world, and precisely why the tribe of Judge is not redeemed.

I think this is Penal Atonement.

Jesus came to help us achieve perfection.

God is forever good , just and mercifull.As a story in Patericus (or is it Philokalia?) says , God sits on 24 chais 23 of mercy and 1 of justice.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. - Heb 13:8
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« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2012, 06:02:18 PM »

There are two sides of Justice , good and bad.. Justice is like a two-edged sword.Justice is a balance, a scale... Forgive and you will be forgiven is of goodness.. It balances what you forgive with your forgiveness.. You forgive you will be forgiven.. It's the same balance of justice as in an eye to an eye, which refers to retaliation... Is just that forgiveness is the good side of Justice...

Christ did not imply any degrees of forgiveness. He said "If you do not forgive others, the Heavenly Father will not forgive you", meaning, if you do not forgive the greatest offences, you will not be forgiven in the least. Being it also that he demonstrated forgiveness with the crucifixion, in that he had all the justifiable right to kill the sinners, he died in their place so as to forgive them (or show the sign of it), because his Spirit demanded it. "You know not what manner of Spirit you are"


Please Sir, do not mistake my words as a challenge or dispute. I am not, nor will I, engage in such with you. I am merely offering you words as a hand of love and compassion for weather you realize it or not the God we love resides in your heart. So does the darkness and demons of this world. This is true IMHO for us all.
“A black dog and a white dog live in our hearts. The one we feed the most will eventually consume the other.”
Look closer as I did not really claim you were angry. Anger, frustration, loneliness, and even doubt can be manifestations of fear. In my opinion whatever you think you are here for, and engaging in, or better said trying to engage others in, is useless until you face and conquer your fears. Fear is blinding.  
It is out of love, for you are a creation of The Almighty God to which I serve, that I will not engage you any longer in what I see (no disrespect intended) as a disillusioned state. Know however, that I have and will again pray for you with a heavy heart as I was once in a similarly darkened place.  

Peace & Grace


Here is my latest 'thesis' on the evil in this world

http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=203289

Tell me if you sense any fear.

Indeed, this is Penal Atonement and it is not Orthodox Dogma.

Jesus died for a "righteousness" of the soul, to ease our way to it.That we through the contemplation of his death on the cross might have the means to find and make ourselves the "righteousness" of the soul.The way the soul needs to be, the healing of the soul.This is the tree of life , the crucified Christ.This "righteousness" is not a legalistic thing(not in legalistic terms), but a state of the soul.
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« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2012, 06:08:38 PM »

You have to keep in mind that the OT justs were in a place of honour in Hades, in a good side in Hades.They were happy, yet they were not perfect...
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« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2012, 06:09:32 PM »

I know it is Penal Substitution, but this is also Biblical or should I say Judaic.

We can make a difference between Messiah and Christ

Messiah is the savior of the Jews, who themselves serve an S&M God, and they see the S&M Messiah on the Cross.

Christ or Chrest is what was known thoughout Greece and imagine it to be the subject of the "Chrestian" schools of initiation. Thus I do think the crucixion is a massive symbol of great importance.
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« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2012, 06:14:27 PM »

I know it is Penal Substitution, but this is also Biblical or should I say Judaic.

We can make a difference between Messiah and Christ

Messiah is the savior of the Jews, who themselves serve an S&M God, and they see the S&M Messiah on the Cross.

Christ or Chrest is what was known thoughout Greece and imagine it to be the subject of the "Chrestian" schools of initiation. Thus I do think the crucixion is a massive symbol of great importance.

the letter kills..
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« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2012, 06:25:14 PM »

Let us say that Eye for an eye is sowing and reaping. If I take an eye, I will lose an eye (or it's equal value), if I offer forgiveness, I will be forgiven, if I give, I will be given.

That being said, for what reason would Christ offer forgiveness, since he has nothing to be forgiven about, nor would ever need it?

I think it is wrong to put forgive and you will be forgiven in the manner of eye for an eye. The reason God forgives is because that is part of His character. He lets the sun rise on the good and the bad. If we want to be with Him we must partake in His character, and perfect as He is perfect. Part of that perfection being forgiveness, and not Justice.

So essentially we must say Christ destroyed sowing and reaping, or eye for an eye, on the cross.
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« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2012, 06:54:53 PM »

Let us say that Eye for an eye is sowing and reaping. If I take an eye, I will lose an eye (or it's equal value), if I offer forgiveness, I will be forgiven, if I give, I will be given.

That being said, for what reason would Christ offer forgiveness, since he has nothing to be forgiven about, nor would ever need it?

I think it is wrong to put forgive and you will be forgiven in the manner of eye for an eye. The reason God forgives is because that is part of His character. He lets the sun rise on the good and the bad. If we want to be with Him we must partake in His character, and perfect as He is perfect. Part of that perfection being forgiveness, and not Justice.

So essentially we must say Christ destroyed sowing and reaping, or eye for an eye, on the cross.

Christ's sacrifice had to do with G-d's love.It is a manifestation of G-d's love not Justice.I don`t think Jesus destroyed the sow and reap and I personally think G-d was and is willing to forgive at any time..
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« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2012, 08:05:59 PM »

Let us say that Eye for an eye is sowing and reaping. If I take an eye, I will lose an eye (or it's equal value), if I offer forgiveness, I will be forgiven, if I give, I will be given.

That being said, for what reason would Christ offer forgiveness, since he has nothing to be forgiven about, nor would ever need it?

I think it is wrong to put forgive and you will be forgiven in the manner of eye for an eye. The reason God forgives is because that is part of His character. He lets the sun rise on the good and the bad. If we want to be with Him we must partake in His character, and perfect as He is perfect. Part of that perfection being forgiveness, and not Justice.

So essentially we must say Christ destroyed sowing and reaping, or eye for an eye, on the cross.


"Eye for an Eye" or "Turn the other cheek"? Didn't Jesus say the last? Please read Matthew chapter 5 in it's entirety.
http://newadvent.org/bible/mat005.htm

Matthew 5:
Quote
nd seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain, and when he was set down, his disciples came unto him. 2 And opening his mouth he taught them, saying: 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land. 5 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. 6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. 7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the clean of heart: they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. 10 Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are you when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: 12 Be glad and rejoice for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you.
Quote
38 You have heard that it has been said: An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. 39 But I say to you not to resist evil: but if one strike you on your right cheek, turn to him also the other: 40 And if a man will contend with you in judgment, and take away your coat, let go your cloak also unto him. 41 And whosoever will force you one mile, go with him other two. 42 Give to him that asks of you, and from him that would borrow of you turn not away.43 You have heard that it has been said, You shall love your neighbour, and hate your enemy. 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: 45 That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who makes his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and rains upon the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? Do not even the publicans this? 47 And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? Do not also the heathens this? 48 Be therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

Your justice is the justice of man. Before God demanded an "eye for an eye' in Deuteronomy, man reciprocated with vengeance, i.e. "You cut off my hand, I'll kill you". Just like in your own statement, you would rather see a rapist get what he deserves, perhaps even killed for his heinous crime. Just like in Genesis 4:

Quote
23 And Lamech said to his wives Ada and Sella: Hear my voice, you wives of Lamech, hearken to my speech: for I have slain a man to the wounding of myself, and a stripling to my own bruising. 24 Sevenfold vengeance shall be taken for Cain: but for Lamech seventy times sevenfold.

But God started his transformation of the Israelites from a pagan worldview. And once the culture of Israel embraced God's law, God then came to Earth in order to 'fulfill' the law.

How is this? Because even though God instituted "eye for an eye", He didn't practice it. This is God's law:

Luke 15:
Quote
3 And he spoke to them this parable, saying: 4 What man of you that has an hundred sheep, and if he shall lose one of them, does he not leave the ninety-nine in the desert and go after that which was lost, until he find it? 5 And when he has found it, lay it upon his shoulders, rejoicing? 6 And coming home, call together his friends and neighbours, saying to them: Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost? 7 I say to you that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that does penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.

8 Or what woman having ten groats, if she lose one groat, does not light a candle and sweep the house and seek diligently until she find it? 9 And when she has found it, call together her friends and neighbours, saying: Rejoice with me, because I have found the groat which I had lost. 10 So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance.

11 And he said: A certain man had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father: Father, give me the portion of substance that falls to me. And he divided unto them his substance. 13 And not many days after, the younger son, gathering all together, went abroad into a far country: and there wasted his substance, living riotously. 14 And after he had spent all, there came a mighty famine in that country: and he began to be in want. 15 And he went and cleaved to one of the citizens of that country. And he sent him into his farm to feed swine. 16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks the swine ate: and no man gave unto him. 17 And returning to himself, he said: How many hired servants in my father's house abound with bread, and I here perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and will go to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am not worthy to be called your son: make me as one of your hired servants.

20 And rising up, he came to his father. And when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him and was moved with compassion and running to him fell upon his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him: Father: I have sinned against heaven and before you I am not now worthy to be called your son. 22 And the father said to his servants: Bring forth quickly the first robe and put it on him: and put a ring on his hand and shoes on his feet. 23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it: and let us eat and make merry: 24 Because this my son was dead and has come to life again, was lost and is found. And they began to be merry. 25 Now his elder son was in the field and when he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him: Your brother has come and your father has killed the fatted calf, because he has received him safe. 28 And he was angry and would not go in. His father therefore coming out began to entreat him. 29 And he answering, said to his father: Behold, for so many years do I serve you and I have never transgressed your commandment: and yet you have never given me a kid to make merry with my friends. 30 But as soon as this your son has come, who has devoured his substance with harlots, you have killed for him the fatted calf. 31 But he said to him: Son, you are always with me; and all I have is yours. 32 But it was fit that we should make merry and be glad: for this your brother was dead and has come to life again; he was lost, and is found.

The difference between "eye for an eye" and "forgiveness by forgiveness" may be appear subtle.

An eye for an eye is about equal retribution. However, God's law is about love, and that must be an equal love. He desires you back to His will (that of pure love), but in order to be love, you must also love. It isn't about retribution, but about the orientation of your heart. Because "No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon" (Matt 6:24).
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« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2012, 03:28:31 AM »

How is this? Because even though God instituted "eye for an eye", He didn't practice it.

He doesn't practice what he preaches? I think it is much easier to say that the Jews had and have very little to do with the true God.
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« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2012, 08:43:21 AM »

How is this? Because even though God instituted "eye for an eye", He didn't practice it.

He doesn't practice what he preaches? I think it is much easier to say that the Jews had and have very little to do with the true God.

Is it?
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« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2012, 11:17:05 AM »

Quote
He doesn't practice what he preaches? I think it is much easier to say that the Jews had and have very little to do with the true God
So the Old Testament is about who?

PP
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« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2012, 01:28:28 PM »

Let us say that Eye for an eye is sowing and reaping. If I take an eye, I will lose an eye (or it's equal value), if I offer forgiveness, I will be forgiven, if I give, I will be given.

That being said, for what reason would Christ offer forgiveness, since he has nothing to be forgiven about, nor would ever need it?

I think it is wrong to put forgive and you will be forgiven in the manner of eye for an eye. The reason God forgives is because that is part of His character. He lets the sun rise on the good and the bad. If we want to be with Him we must partake in His character, and perfect as He is perfect. Part of that perfection being forgiveness, and not Justice.

So essentially we must say Christ destroyed sowing and reaping, or eye for an eye, on the cross.


"Eye for an Eye" or "Turn the other cheek"? Didn't Jesus say the last? Please read Matthew chapter 5 in it's entirety.
http://newadvent.org/bible/mat005.htm

Matthew 5:
Quote
nd seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain, and when he was set down, his disciples came unto him. 2 And opening his mouth he taught them, saying: 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land. 5 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. 6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. 7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the clean of heart: they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. 10 Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are you when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: 12 Be glad and rejoice for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you.
Quote
38 You have heard that it has been said: An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. 39 But I say to you not to resist evil: but if one strike you on your right cheek, turn to him also the other: 40 And if a man will contend with you in judgment, and take away your coat, let go your cloak also unto him. 41 And whosoever will force you one mile, go with him other two. 42 Give to him that asks of you, and from him that would borrow of you turn not away.43 You have heard that it has been said, You shall love your neighbour, and hate your enemy. 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: 45 That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who makes his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and rains upon the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? Do not even the publicans this? 47 And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? Do not also the heathens this? 48 Be therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

Your justice is the justice of man. Before God demanded an "eye for an eye' in Deuteronomy, man reciprocated with vengeance, i.e. "You cut off my hand, I'll kill you". Just like in your own statement, you would rather see a rapist get what he deserves, perhaps even killed for his heinous crime. Just like in Genesis 4:

Quote
23 And Lamech said to his wives Ada and Sella: Hear my voice, you wives of Lamech, hearken to my speech: for I have slain a man to the wounding of myself, and a stripling to my own bruising. 24 Sevenfold vengeance shall be taken for Cain: but for Lamech seventy times sevenfold.

But God started his transformation of the Israelites from a pagan worldview. And once the culture of Israel embraced God's law, God then came to Earth in order to 'fulfill' the law.

How is this? Because even though God instituted "eye for an eye", He didn't practice it. This is God's law:

Luke 15:
Quote
3 And he spoke to them this parable, saying: 4 What man of you that has an hundred sheep, and if he shall lose one of them, does he not leave the ninety-nine in the desert and go after that which was lost, until he find it? 5 And when he has found it, lay it upon his shoulders, rejoicing? 6 And coming home, call together his friends and neighbours, saying to them: Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost? 7 I say to you that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that does penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.

8 Or what woman having ten groats, if she lose one groat, does not light a candle and sweep the house and seek diligently until she find it? 9 And when she has found it, call together her friends and neighbours, saying: Rejoice with me, because I have found the groat which I had lost. 10 So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance.

11 And he said: A certain man had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father: Father, give me the portion of substance that falls to me. And he divided unto them his substance. 13 And not many days after, the younger son, gathering all together, went abroad into a far country: and there wasted his substance, living riotously. 14 And after he had spent all, there came a mighty famine in that country: and he began to be in want. 15 And he went and cleaved to one of the citizens of that country. And he sent him into his farm to feed swine. 16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks the swine ate: and no man gave unto him. 17 And returning to himself, he said: How many hired servants in my father's house abound with bread, and I here perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and will go to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am not worthy to be called your son: make me as one of your hired servants.

20 And rising up, he came to his father. And when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him and was moved with compassion and running to him fell upon his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him: Father: I have sinned against heaven and before you I am not now worthy to be called your son. 22 And the father said to his servants: Bring forth quickly the first robe and put it on him: and put a ring on his hand and shoes on his feet. 23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it: and let us eat and make merry: 24 Because this my son was dead and has come to life again, was lost and is found. And they began to be merry. 25 Now his elder son was in the field and when he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him: Your brother has come and your father has killed the fatted calf, because he has received him safe. 28 And he was angry and would not go in. His father therefore coming out began to entreat him. 29 And he answering, said to his father: Behold, for so many years do I serve you and I have never transgressed your commandment: and yet you have never given me a kid to make merry with my friends. 30 But as soon as this your son has come, who has devoured his substance with harlots, you have killed for him the fatted calf. 31 But he said to him: Son, you are always with me; and all I have is yours. 32 But it was fit that we should make merry and be glad: for this your brother was dead and has come to life again; he was lost, and is found.

The difference between "eye for an eye" and "forgiveness by forgiveness" may be appear subtle.

An eye for an eye is about equal retribution. However, God's law is about love, and that must be an equal love. He desires you back to His will (that of pure love), but in order to be love, you must also love. It isn't about retribution, but about the orientation of your heart. Because "No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon" (Matt 6:24).


An eye for an eye is about retribution.. turn the other cheek is about love(?)
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« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2012, 01:51:06 PM »

Quote
He doesn't practice what he preaches? I think it is much easier to say that the Jews had and have very little to do with the true God
So the Old Testament is about who?

PP

Well there is that guy who was thrown out of heaven... But maybe he was just thrown out of the Jew, who had placed him in heaven in his mind.
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« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2012, 07:50:31 PM »

An eye for an eye is about retribution.. turn the other cheek is about love(?)

Eye for an eye makes response to another more equally fitting. Turn the other cheek is about having love for your neighbor, even in light of hate.
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