Question for Byzantine Catholics?

[Papist]

I have a few questions for the Byzantine Catholics on this forum. This is not a loyalty test. I am not interested in that stuff right now. I'm just trying to understand Byzantine Catholicism better. Probably because, while I am very Thomistic Latin, I absolutely love attending Byzantine Liturgy, and during Lent I ususally attend verspers and the Liturgy of the Presanctified on Friday evenings. Something about that Byzantine parish has always had quite a draw for me. Thus, I want to know more about how Byzantine Catholics understand the faith, and because this is an Orthodox forum, I would like to know more about how the Byzantine Catholics on this forum relate to Eastern Orthodox Christians.
First, how you understand your ecclesial position withe regard to both Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics?
Second, how is your experience of the Catholic faith different than that of Roman Catholics?
Third, as a Byzantine Catholic, do you believe in Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope, and the Infallibility of the Pope?
If you don't believe in these things, do you think that Roman Catholics are in heresy or error?
Fourth, do you see yourself as closer in faith and religious praxis to the Orthodox, than you do the Roman Catholics?
Fifth, if you are a Byzantine Catholic who was once a Roman Catholic, what has changed about the experience of your faith since you have switched to an Eastern Church?

[J Michael]

I have a few questions for the Byzantine Catholics on this forum. This is not a loyalty test. I am not interested in that stuff right now. I'm just trying to understand Byzantine Catholicism better. Probably because, while I am very Thomistic Latin, I absolutely love attending Byzantine Liturgy, and during Lent I ususally attend verspers and the Liturgy of the Presanctified on Friday evenings. Something about that Byzantine parish has always had quite a draw for me. Thus, I want to know more about how Byzantine Catholics understand the faith, and because this is an Orthodox forum, I would like to know more about how the Byzantine Catholics on this forum relate to Eastern Orthodox Christians.
First, how you understand your ecclesial position withe regard to both Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics?
Second, how is your experience of the Catholic faith different than that of Roman Catholics?
Third, as a Byzantine Catholic, do you believe in Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope, and the Infallibility of the Pope?
If you don't believe in these things, do you think that Roman Catholics are in heresy or error?
Fourth, do you see yourself as closer in faith and religious praxis to the Orthodox, than you do the Roman Catholics?
Fifth, if you are a Byzantine Catholic who was once a Roman Catholic, what has changed about the experience of your faith since you have switched to an Eastern Church?

Hmm....Interesting questions...

Let me start by saying that my experience may be somewhat different from the usual ByzCath in that I came to Christianity from a secular Jewish background relatively late in life (about age 49) and hence whatever baggage I brought with me will be of an entirely different order than that of someone raised in a Christian church, more specifically either the Byzantine or Roman Catholic Church. 

My experience may also be somewhat different in that while I was baptized, etc. into the ByzCath Church and remain canonically Byzantine, I've spent more years worshiping in and being a member of a Roman Catholic parish than a Byzantine one.  I also spent several years in the Orthodox Church and then returned to Catholicism.

Now to your questions....

1.  I'm not entirely sure what you mean by ecclesial position, but I'll take a stab at it anyway.  I am a member of the Body of Christ.  I am a member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  My *opinion*, for which I've taken some heat on this board,  is that the Orthodox Church is also a part of that same One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and I feel that our separation, the schism, is sinful and the perpetuation of it equally so.  Sometimes I feel more strongly about this, sometimes less so.  And sometimes I think I may be gradually coming to think of us as "irreconcilable" and that saddens me enormously.  But then I remember that with God, all things are possible!  As for Roman Catholics, that's easy!  They are my brothers and sisters in Christ and we are part and parcel of the same Church.  I feel equally at home in a Roman Catholic church as I do in a Byzantine--sometimes even more so.  Unlike some ByzCaths, because of my background and lack of attachments and prejudices about a particular "version" of Catholicism, I don't particularly lament the so-called "Latinizations" that have occurred.  Sorry to be so verbose!  And vague.

2.  I don't know if a life-long ByzCath would be able to answer that.  In fact, I would venture to guess that *any* Catholic you would ask might have a slightly different answer than any other Catholic, of whatever persuasion.  Maybe I'm just not certain either what you mean by "your experience of the Catholic faith", or how I would express an answer that would make sense.  Sorry... .

3.  Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes--though I won't pretend that I understand all of those as deeply or thoroughly as others, or as deeply as I would wish to.  I am aware, however, that there may be some Byzantine Catholics who might hedge their bets about some of those, or would, perhaps use slightly different language to express the same things.

4.  My *faith* is Catholic--in almost all ways very close to Orthodoxy (I know some of my Orthodox brothers and sisters will take issue with that, but that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it  !)  My public praxis, given that my wife and I worship in a Roman Catholic parish, is Roman Catholic.  My private praxis is a mixture of East and West, and I have no problem with that at all.  (And no, I'm *not* schizophrenic  !)

Hope that helps some.

I'm very interested to read replies from other Byzantine Catholics here!

[Papist]

I have a few questions for the Byzantine Catholics on this forum. This is not a loyalty test. I am not interested in that stuff right now. I'm just trying to understand Byzantine Catholicism better. Probably because, while I am very Thomistic Latin, I absolutely love attending Byzantine Liturgy, and during Lent I ususally attend verspers and the Liturgy of the Presanctified on Friday evenings. Something about that Byzantine parish has always had quite a draw for me. Thus, I want to know more about how Byzantine Catholics understand the faith, and because this is an Orthodox forum, I would like to know more about how the Byzantine Catholics on this forum relate to Eastern Orthodox Christians.
First, how you understand your ecclesial position withe regard to both Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics?
Second, how is your experience of the Catholic faith different than that of Roman Catholics?
Third, as a Byzantine Catholic, do you believe in Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope, and the Infallibility of the Pope?
If you don't believe in these things, do you think that Roman Catholics are in heresy or error?
Fourth, do you see yourself as closer in faith and religious praxis to the Orthodox, than you do the Roman Catholics?
Fifth, if you are a Byzantine Catholic who was once a Roman Catholic, what has changed about the experience of your faith since you have switched to an Eastern Church?

Hmm....Interesting questions...

Let me start by saying that my experience may be somewhat different from the usual ByzCath in that I came to Christianity from a secular Jewish background relatively late in life (about age 49) and hence whatever baggage I brought with me will be of an entirely different order than that of someone raised in a Christian church, more specifically either the Byzantine or Roman Catholic Church.  

My experience may also be somewhat different in that while I was baptized, etc. into the ByzCath Church and remain canonically Byzantine, I've spent more years worshiping in and being a member of a Roman Catholic parish than a Byzantine one.  I also spent several years in the Orthodox Church and then returned to Catholicism.

Now to your questions....

1.  I'm not entirely sure what you mean by ecclesial position, but I'll take a stab at it anyway.  I am a member of the Body of Christ.  I am a member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  My *opinion*, for which I've taken some heat on this board,  is that the Orthodox Church is also a part of that same One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and I feel that our separation, the schism, is sinful and the perpetuation of it equally so.  Sometimes I feel more strongly about this, sometimes less so.  And sometimes I think I may be gradually coming to think of us as "irreconcilable" and that saddens me enormously.  But then I remember that with God, all things are possible!  As for Roman Catholics, that's easy!  They are my brothers and sisters in Christ and we are part and parcel of the same Church.  I feel equally at home in a Roman Catholic church as I do in a Byzantine--sometimes even more so.  Unlike some ByzCaths, because of my background and lack of attachments and prejudices about a particular "version" of Catholicism, I don't particularly lament the so-called "Latinizations" that have occurred.  Sorry to be so verbose!  And vague.

2.  I don't know if a life-long ByzCath would be able to answer that.  In fact, I would venture to guess that *any* Catholic you would ask might have a slightly different answer than any other Catholic, of whatever persuasion.  Maybe I'm just not certain either what you mean by "your experience of the Catholic faith", or how I would express an answer that would make sense.  Sorry... .

3.  Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes--though I won't pretend that I understand all of those as deeply or thoroughly as others, or as deeply as I would wish to.  I am aware, however, that there may be some Byzantine Catholics who might hedge their bets about some of those, or would, perhaps use slightly different language to express the same things.

4.  My *faith* is Catholic--in almost all ways very close to Orthodoxy (I know some of my Orthodox brothers and sisters will take issue with that, but that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it  !)  My public praxis, given that my wife and I worship in a Roman Catholic parish, is Roman Catholic.  My private praxis is a mixture of East and West, and I have no problem with that at all.  (And no, I'm *not* schizophrenic   !)

Hope that helps some.

I'm very interested to read replies from other Byzantine Catholics here!

Very interesting. In the past when I adopted certain Byzantine spiritual practices, I was discouraged by some from the East, because they thought it was bad to mix the two. However, you seem to be as comfortable with the mixing as I was. I'm quite the Thomist, but I love praying the Jesus Prayer, praying before icons, Byzantine Liturgy, etc. On the other hand, I love the Rosary, the TLM, stations of the Cross, Eucharistic Adoration, etc. And I don't feel schizophrenic either.

[Ortho_cat]

 I wonder if EC's say the filioque...

[Schultz]

I wonder if EC's say the filioque...

Ruthenians are not supposed to since the RDL.  They were, I believe, the last holdouts to continue to recite the filioque, at least in the United States.

[Ortho_cat]

I have a few questions for the Byzantine Catholics on this forum. This is not a loyalty test. I am not interested in that stuff right now. I'm just trying to understand Byzantine Catholicism better. Probably because, while I am very Thomistic Latin, I absolutely love attending Byzantine Liturgy, and during Lent I ususally attend verspers and the Liturgy of the Presanctified on Friday evenings. Something about that Byzantine parish has always had quite a draw for me. Thus, I want to know more about how Byzantine Catholics understand the faith, and because this is an Orthodox forum, I would like to know more about how the Byzantine Catholics on this forum relate to Eastern Orthodox Christians.
First, how you understand your ecclesial position withe regard to both Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics?
Second, how is your experience of the Catholic faith different than that of Roman Catholics?
Third, as a Byzantine Catholic, do you believe in Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope, and the Infallibility of the Pope?
If you don't believe in these things, do you think that Roman Catholics are in heresy or error?
Fourth, do you see yourself as closer in faith and religious praxis to the Orthodox, than you do the Roman Catholics?
Fifth, if you are a Byzantine Catholic who was once a Roman Catholic, what has changed about the experience of your faith since you have switched to an Eastern Church?

Hmm....Interesting questions...

Let me start by saying that my experience may be somewhat different from the usual ByzCath in that I came to Christianity from a secular Jewish background relatively late in life (about age 49) and hence whatever baggage I brought with me will be of an entirely different order than that of someone raised in a Christian church, more specifically either the Byzantine or Roman Catholic Church. 

My experience may also be somewhat different in that while I was baptized, etc. into the ByzCath Church and remain canonically Byzantine, I've spent more years worshiping in and being a member of a Roman Catholic parish than a Byzantine one.  I also spent several years in the Orthodox Church and then returned to Catholicism.

Now to your questions....

1.  I'm not entirely sure what you mean by ecclesial position, but I'll take a stab at it anyway.  I am a member of the Body of Christ.  I am a member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  My *opinion*, for which I've taken some heat on this board,  is that the Orthodox Church is also a part of that same One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and I feel that our separation, the schism, is sinful and the perpetuation of it equally so.  Sometimes I feel more strongly about this, sometimes less so.  And sometimes I think I may be gradually coming to think of us as "irreconcilable" and that saddens me enormously.  But then I remember that with God, all things are possible!  As for Roman Catholics, that's easy!  They are my brothers and sisters in Christ and we are part and parcel of the same Church.  I feel equally at home in a Roman Catholic church as I do in a Byzantine--sometimes even more so.  Unlike some ByzCaths, because of my background and lack of attachments and prejudices about a particular "version" of Catholicism, I don't particularly lament the so-called "Latinizations" that have occurred.  Sorry to be so verbose!  And vague.

2.  I don't know if a life-long ByzCath would be able to answer that.  In fact, I would venture to guess that *any* Catholic you would ask might have a slightly different answer than any other Catholic, of whatever persuasion.  Maybe I'm just not certain either what you mean by "your experience of the Catholic faith", or how I would express an answer that would make sense.  Sorry... .

3.  Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes--though I won't pretend that I understand all of those as deeply or thoroughly as others, or as deeply as I would wish to.  I am aware, however, that there may be some Byzantine Catholics who might hedge their bets about some of those, or would, perhaps use slightly different language to express the same things.

4.  My *faith* is Catholic--in almost all ways very close to Orthodoxy (I know some of my Orthodox brothers and sisters will take issue with that, but that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it  !)  My public praxis, given that my wife and I worship in a Roman Catholic parish, is Roman Catholic.  My private praxis is a mixture of East and West, and I have no problem with that at all.  (And no, I'm *not* schizophrenic  !)

Hope that helps some.

I'm very interested to read replies from other Byzantine Catholics here!

what made you leave the EOC?

[Ortho_cat]

I wonder if EC's say the filioque...

Ruthenians are not supposed to since the RDL.  They were, I believe, the last holdouts to continue to recite the filioque, at least in the United States.

oh ok, thanks. what's RDL?

[Peter J]

I wonder if EC's say the filioque...

Ruthenians are not supposed to since the RDL.  They were, I believe, the last holdouts to continue to recite the filioque, at least in the United States.

Maronite Catholics do. (I don't know whether or not any other EC churches do.)

[Papist]

I wonder if EC's say the filioque...

Ruthenians are not supposed to since the RDL.  They were, I believe, the last holdouts to continue to recite the filioque, at least in the United States.

Maronite Catholics do. (I don't know whether or not any other EC churches do.)

Hmmm, I don't remember that the last time I attended Maronite Liturgy.

[J Michael]

I have a few questions for the Byzantine Catholics on this forum. This is not a loyalty test. I am not interested in that stuff right now. I'm just trying to understand Byzantine Catholicism better. Probably because, while I am very Thomistic Latin, I absolutely love attending Byzantine Liturgy, and during Lent I ususally attend verspers and the Liturgy of the Presanctified on Friday evenings. Something about that Byzantine parish has always had quite a draw for me. Thus, I want to know more about how Byzantine Catholics understand the faith, and because this is an Orthodox forum, I would like to know more about how the Byzantine Catholics on this forum relate to Eastern Orthodox Christians.
First, how you understand your ecclesial position withe regard to both Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics?
Second, how is your experience of the Catholic faith different than that of Roman Catholics?
Third, as a Byzantine Catholic, do you believe in Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope, and the Infallibility of the Pope?
If you don't believe in these things, do you think that Roman Catholics are in heresy or error?
Fourth, do you see yourself as closer in faith and religious praxis to the Orthodox, than you do the Roman Catholics?
Fifth, if you are a Byzantine Catholic who was once a Roman Catholic, what has changed about the experience of your faith since you have switched to an Eastern Church?

Hmm....Interesting questions...

Let me start by saying that my experience may be somewhat different from the usual ByzCath in that I came to Christianity from a secular Jewish background relatively late in life (about age 49) and hence whatever baggage I brought with me will be of an entirely different order than that of someone raised in a Christian church, more specifically either the Byzantine or Roman Catholic Church. 

My experience may also be somewhat different in that while I was baptized, etc. into the ByzCath Church and remain canonically Byzantine, I've spent more years worshiping in and being a member of a Roman Catholic parish than a Byzantine one.  I also spent several years in the Orthodox Church and then returned to Catholicism.

Now to your questions....

1.  I'm not entirely sure what you mean by ecclesial position, but I'll take a stab at it anyway.  I am a member of the Body of Christ.  I am a member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  My *opinion*, for which I've taken some heat on this board,  is that the Orthodox Church is also a part of that same One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and I feel that our separation, the schism, is sinful and the perpetuation of it equally so.  Sometimes I feel more strongly about this, sometimes less so.  And sometimes I think I may be gradually coming to think of us as "irreconcilable" and that saddens me enormously.  But then I remember that with God, all things are possible!  As for Roman Catholics, that's easy!  They are my brothers and sisters in Christ and we are part and parcel of the same Church.  I feel equally at home in a Roman Catholic church as I do in a Byzantine--sometimes even more so.  Unlike some ByzCaths, because of my background and lack of attachments and prejudices about a particular "version" of Catholicism, I don't particularly lament the so-called "Latinizations" that have occurred.  Sorry to be so verbose!  And vague.

2.  I don't know if a life-long ByzCath would be able to answer that.  In fact, I would venture to guess that *any* Catholic you would ask might have a slightly different answer than any other Catholic, of whatever persuasion.  Maybe I'm just not certain either what you mean by "your experience of the Catholic faith", or how I would express an answer that would make sense.  Sorry... .

3.  Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes--though I won't pretend that I understand all of those as deeply or thoroughly as others, or as deeply as I would wish to.  I am aware, however, that there may be some Byzantine Catholics who might hedge their bets about some of those, or would, perhaps use slightly different language to express the same things.

4.  My *faith* is Catholic--in almost all ways very close to Orthodoxy (I know some of my Orthodox brothers and sisters will take issue with that, but that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it  !)  My public praxis, given that my wife and I worship in a Roman Catholic parish, is Roman Catholic.  My private praxis is a mixture of East and West, and I have no problem with that at all.  (And no, I'm *not* schizophrenic  !)

Hope that helps some.

I'm very interested to read replies from other Byzantine Catholics here!

what made you leave the EOC?

Long story, not for "public consumption".  At least not here, anyway.  

[Peter J]

I have a few questions for the Byzantine Catholics on this forum. This is not a loyalty test. I am not interested in that stuff right now. I'm just trying to understand Byzantine Catholicism better. Probably because, while I am very Thomistic Latin, I absolutely love attending Byzantine Liturgy, and during Lent I ususally attend verspers and the Liturgy of the Presanctified on Friday evenings. Something about that Byzantine parish has always had quite a draw for me. Thus, I want to know more about how Byzantine Catholics understand the faith, and because this is an Orthodox forum, I would like to know more about how the Byzantine Catholics on this forum relate to Eastern Orthodox Christians.
First, how you understand your ecclesial position withe regard to both Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics?
Second, how is your experience of the Catholic faith different than that of Roman Catholics?
Third, as a Byzantine Catholic, do you believe in Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope, and the Infallibility of the Pope?
If you don't believe in these things, do you think that Roman Catholics are in heresy or error?
Fourth, do you see yourself as closer in faith and religious praxis to the Orthodox, than you do the Roman Catholics?
Fifth, if you are a Byzantine Catholic who was once a Roman Catholic, what has changed about the experience of your faith since you have switched to an Eastern Church?

This was posted on the Catholic Answers Forum, but it seems relevant to your question:

Orthodox ideas are not wrong, but are valid and holy.

[J Michael]

I wonder if EC's say the filioque...

Ruthenians are not supposed to since the RDL.  They were, I believe, the last holdouts to continue to recite the filioque, at least in the United States.

oh ok, thanks. what's RDL?

The Divine Liturgy as celebrated in the Ruthenian rite underwent some changes a few years ago, hence RDL, i.e. Revised Divine Liturgy.  I think. 

[Deacon Lance]

I wonder if EC's say the filioque...

Ruthenians are not supposed to since the RDL.  They were, I believe, the last holdouts to continue to recite the filioque, at least in the United States.

oh ok, thanks. what's RDL?

Revised Divine Liturgy promulgated in 2007 for the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh.

[Peter J]

I wonder if EC's say the filioque...

Ruthenians are not supposed to since the RDL.  They were, I believe, the last holdouts to continue to recite the filioque, at least in the United States.

Maronite Catholics do. (I don't know whether or not any other EC churches do.)

Hmmm, I don't remember that the last time I attended Maronite Liturgy.

It's certainly possible that it varies from parish to parish. I was just speaking from personal experience.

[J Michael]

I have a few questions for the Byzantine Catholics on this forum. This is not a loyalty test. I am not interested in that stuff right now. I'm just trying to understand Byzantine Catholicism better. Probably because, while I am very Thomistic Latin, I absolutely love attending Byzantine Liturgy, and during Lent I ususally attend verspers and the Liturgy of the Presanctified on Friday evenings. Something about that Byzantine parish has always had quite a draw for me. Thus, I want to know more about how Byzantine Catholics understand the faith, and because this is an Orthodox forum, I would like to know more about how the Byzantine Catholics on this forum relate to Eastern Orthodox Christians.
First, how you understand your ecclesial position withe regard to both Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics?
Second, how is your experience of the Catholic faith different than that of Roman Catholics?
Third, as a Byzantine Catholic, do you believe in Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope, and the Infallibility of the Pope?
If you don't believe in these things, do you think that Roman Catholics are in heresy or error?
Fourth, do you see yourself as closer in faith and religious praxis to the Orthodox, than you do the Roman Catholics?
Fifth, if you are a Byzantine Catholic who was once a Roman Catholic, what has changed about the experience of your faith since you have switched to an Eastern Church?

This was posted on the Catholic Answers Forum, but it seems relevant to your question:

Orthodox ideas are not wrong, but are valid and holy.

I would agree with that.  Most of the time  .  From what I've read of mardukm's posts, I find much there that I agree with.  And many Orthodox, well..Netodox anyway, don't.  Oh well....

[Papist]

I have a few questions for the Byzantine Catholics on this forum. This is not a loyalty test. I am not interested in that stuff right now. I'm just trying to understand Byzantine Catholicism better. Probably because, while I am very Thomistic Latin, I absolutely love attending Byzantine Liturgy, and during Lent I ususally attend verspers and the Liturgy of the Presanctified on Friday evenings. Something about that Byzantine parish has always had quite a draw for me. Thus, I want to know more about how Byzantine Catholics understand the faith, and because this is an Orthodox forum, I would like to know more about how the Byzantine Catholics on this forum relate to Eastern Orthodox Christians.
First, how you understand your ecclesial position withe regard to both Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics?
Second, how is your experience of the Catholic faith different than that of Roman Catholics?
Third, as a Byzantine Catholic, do you believe in Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope, and the Infallibility of the Pope?
If you don't believe in these things, do you think that Roman Catholics are in heresy or error?
Fourth, do you see yourself as closer in faith and religious praxis to the Orthodox, than you do the Roman Catholics?
Fifth, if you are a Byzantine Catholic who was once a Roman Catholic, what has changed about the experience of your faith since you have switched to an Eastern Church?

This was posted on the Catholic Answers Forum, but it seems relevant to your question:

Orthodox ideas are not wrong, but are valid and holy.

Mardukm has always had an interesting perspective on the matter. I am probably a bit more "hardline" than he is, but his viewpoint seems common among many Catholics in general.

[J Michael]

I have a few questions for the Byzantine Catholics on this forum. This is not a loyalty test. I am not interested in that stuff right now. I'm just trying to understand Byzantine Catholicism better. Probably because, while I am very Thomistic Latin, I absolutely love attending Byzantine Liturgy, and during Lent I ususally attend verspers and the Liturgy of the Presanctified on Friday evenings. Something about that Byzantine parish has always had quite a draw for me. Thus, I want to know more about how Byzantine Catholics understand the faith, and because this is an Orthodox forum, I would like to know more about how the Byzantine Catholics on this forum relate to Eastern Orthodox Christians.
First, how you understand your ecclesial position withe regard to both Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics?
Second, how is your experience of the Catholic faith different than that of Roman Catholics?
Third, as a Byzantine Catholic, do you believe in Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope, and the Infallibility of the Pope?
If you don't believe in these things, do you think that Roman Catholics are in heresy or error?
Fourth, do you see yourself as closer in faith and religious praxis to the Orthodox, than you do the Roman Catholics?
Fifth, if you are a Byzantine Catholic who was once a Roman Catholic, what has changed about the experience of your faith since you have switched to an Eastern Church?

Hmm....Interesting questions...

Let me start by saying that my experience may be somewhat different from the usual ByzCath in that I came to Christianity from a secular Jewish background relatively late in life (about age 49) and hence whatever baggage I brought with me will be of an entirely different order than that of someone raised in a Christian church, more specifically either the Byzantine or Roman Catholic Church.  

My experience may also be somewhat different in that while I was baptized, etc. into the ByzCath Church and remain canonically Byzantine, I've spent more years worshiping in and being a member of a Roman Catholic parish than a Byzantine one.  I also spent several years in the Orthodox Church and then returned to Catholicism.

Now to your questions....

1.  I'm not entirely sure what you mean by ecclesial position, but I'll take a stab at it anyway.  I am a member of the Body of Christ.  I am a member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  My *opinion*, for which I've taken some heat on this board,  is that the Orthodox Church is also a part of that same One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and I feel that our separation, the schism, is sinful and the perpetuation of it equally so.  Sometimes I feel more strongly about this, sometimes less so.  And sometimes I think I may be gradually coming to think of us as "irreconcilable" and that saddens me enormously.  But then I remember that with God, all things are possible!  As for Roman Catholics, that's easy!  They are my brothers and sisters in Christ and we are part and parcel of the same Church.  I feel equally at home in a Roman Catholic church as I do in a Byzantine--sometimes even more so.  Unlike some ByzCaths, because of my background and lack of attachments and prejudices about a particular "version" of Catholicism, I don't particularly lament the so-called "Latinizations" that have occurred.  Sorry to be so verbose!  And vague.

2.  I don't know if a life-long ByzCath would be able to answer that.  In fact, I would venture to guess that *any* Catholic you would ask might have a slightly different answer than any other Catholic, of whatever persuasion.  Maybe I'm just not certain either what you mean by "your experience of the Catholic faith", or how I would express an answer that would make sense.  Sorry... .

3.  Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes--though I won't pretend that I understand all of those as deeply or thoroughly as others, or as deeply as I would wish to.  I am aware, however, that there may be some Byzantine Catholics who might hedge their bets about some of those, or would, perhaps use slightly different language to express the same things.

4.  My *faith* is Catholic--in almost all ways very close to Orthodoxy (I know some of my Orthodox brothers and sisters will take issue with that, but that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it  !)  My public praxis, given that my wife and I worship in a Roman Catholic parish, is Roman Catholic.  My private praxis is a mixture of East and West, and I have no problem with that at all.  (And no, I'm *not* schizophrenic   !)

Hope that helps some.

I'm very interested to read replies from other Byzantine Catholics here!

Very interesting. In the past when I adopted certain Byzantine spiritual practices, I was discouraged by some from the East, because they thought it was bad to mix the two. However, you seem to be as comfortable with the mixing as I was. I'm quite the Thomist, but I love praying the Jesus Prayer, praying before icons, Byzantine Liturgy, etc. On the other hand, I love the Rosary, the TLM, stations of the Cross, Eucharistic Adoration, etc. And I don't feel schizophrenic either.

The only thing you mention above that I haven't experienced is the TLM.  That's for logistical reasons more than any thing else.  I'd love to do so, and one day, I'm sure, will.

As for the other practices, I see no reason whatsoever why *any* Catholic should not, if so moved,  do any or all of them. 

[Deacon Lance]

First, how you understand your ecclesial position withe regard to both Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics?

I believe we are all part of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church.

Second, how is your experience of the Catholic faith different than that of Roman Catholics?

I don't know that my experience of the faith is different.  My experience of Church politics I am sure is.

Third, as a Byzantine Catholic, do you believe in Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope, and the Infallibility of the Pope?
If you don't believe in these things, do you think that Roman Catholics are in heresy or error?

I believe man is born with out the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  I believe Mary was born with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  I believe theosis continues after death and that prayer for the dead is effacious.  I believe the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.  I believe the Pope of Rome has the right of intervention in a crisis universally.  I do not believe the Pope has the universal right of micromanagement or interference in local Churches.  I believe the Pope can speak infallibly for the Church.

I believe Catholics and Orthodox that dogmatize their medieval accretions are in error.

Fourth, do you see yourself as closer in faith and religious praxis to the Orthodox, than you do the Roman Catholics?

Yes.

Fifth, if you are a Byzantine Catholic who was once a Roman Catholic, what has changed about the experience of your faith since you have switched to an Eastern Church?

Growing up, while formally RC, I had a foot in both the BC and RC due to family. I have been exclusively BC since I was 15.  I fell closer to Christ through the Byzantine tradition than the Roman, but I recognize that is not true for all.

[J Michael]

First, how you understand your ecclesial position withe regard to both Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics?

I believe we are all part of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church.

Second, how is your experience of the Catholic faith different than that of Roman Catholics?

I don't know that my experience of the faith is different.  My experience of Church politics I am sure is.

Third, as a Byzantine Catholic, do you believe in Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope, and the Infallibility of the Pope?
If you don't believe in these things, do you think that Roman Catholics are in heresy or error?

I believe man is born with out the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  I believe Mary was born with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  I believe theosis continues after death and that prayer for the dead is effacious.  I believe the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.  I believe the Pope of Rome has the right of intervention in a crisis universally.  I do not believe the Pope has the universal right of micromanagement or interference in local Churches.  I believe the Pope can speak infallibly for the Church.

I believe Catholics and Orthodox that dogmatize their medieval accretions are in error.

Fourth, do you see yourself as closer in faith and religious praxis to the Orthodox, than you do the Roman Catholics?

Yes.

Fifth, if you are a Byzantine Catholic who was once a Roman Catholic, what has changed about the experience of your faith since you have switched to an Eastern Church?

Growing up, while formally RC, I had a foot in both the BC and RC due to family. I have been exclusively BC since I was 15.  I fell closer to Christ through the Byzantine tradition than the Roman, but I recognize that is not true for all.

Well said!

Did you canonically change Rites from RC to BC?

[Deacon Lance]

Did you canonically change Rites from RC to BC?

Yes, when I was 26.

[mike]

Are here any cradle ECs? Anyone that is not LARP-ing?

[ialmisry]

I have a few questions for the Byzantine Catholics on this forum. This is not a loyalty test. I am not interested in that stuff right now. I'm just trying to understand Byzantine Catholicism better. Probably because, while I am very Thomistic Latin, I absolutely love attending Byzantine Liturgy, and during Lent I ususally attend verspers and the Liturgy of the Presanctified on Friday evenings. Something about that Byzantine parish has always had quite a draw for me. Thus, I want to know more about how Byzantine Catholics understand the faith, and because this is an Orthodox forum, I would like to know more about how the Byzantine Catholics on this forum relate to Eastern Orthodox Christians.
First, how you understand your ecclesial position withe regard to both Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics?
Second, how is your experience of the Catholic faith different than that of Roman Catholics?
Third, as a Byzantine Catholic, do you believe in Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope, and the Infallibility of the Pope?
If you don't believe in these things, do you think that Roman Catholics are in heresy or error?
Fourth, do you see yourself as closer in faith and religious praxis to the Orthodox, than you do the Roman Catholics?
Fifth, if you are a Byzantine Catholic who was once a Roman Catholic, what has changed about the experience of your faith since you have switched to an Eastern Church?

Hmm....Interesting questions...

Let me start by saying that my experience may be somewhat different from the usual ByzCath in that I came to Christianity from a secular Jewish background relatively late in life (about age 49) and hence whatever baggage I brought with me will be of an entirely different order than that of someone raised in a Christian church, more specifically either the Byzantine or Roman Catholic Church. 

My experience may also be somewhat different in that while I was baptized, etc. into the ByzCath Church and remain canonically Byzantine, I've spent more years worshiping in and being a member of a Roman Catholic parish than a Byzantine one.  I also spent several years in the Orthodox Church and then returned to Catholicism.

Now to your questions....

1.  I'm not entirely sure what you mean by ecclesial position, but I'll take a stab at it anyway.  I am a member of the Body of Christ.  I am a member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  My *opinion*, for which I've taken some heat on this board,  is that the Orthodox Church is also a part of that same One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and I feel that our separation, the schism, is sinful and the perpetuation of it equally so.  Sometimes I feel more strongly about this, sometimes less so.  And sometimes I think I may be gradually coming to think of us as "irreconcilable" and that saddens me enormously.  But then I remember that with God, all things are possible!  As for Roman Catholics, that's easy!  They are my brothers and sisters in Christ and we are part and parcel of the same Church.  I feel equally at home in a Roman Catholic church as I do in a Byzantine--sometimes even more so.  Unlike some ByzCaths, because of my background and lack of attachments and prejudices about a particular "version" of Catholicism, I don't particularly lament the so-called "Latinizations" that have occurred.  Sorry to be so verbose!  And vague.

2.  I don't know if a life-long ByzCath would be able to answer that.  In fact, I would venture to guess that *any* Catholic you would ask might have a slightly different answer than any other Catholic, of whatever persuasion.  Maybe I'm just not certain either what you mean by "your experience of the Catholic faith", or how I would express an answer that would make sense.  Sorry... .

3.  Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes--though I won't pretend that I understand all of those as deeply or thoroughly as others, or as deeply as I would wish to.  I am aware, however, that there may be some Byzantine Catholics who might hedge their bets about some of those, or would, perhaps use slightly different language to express the same things.

4.  My *faith* is Catholic--in almost all ways very close to Orthodoxy (I know some of my Orthodox brothers and sisters will take issue with that, but that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it  !)  My public praxis, given that my wife and I worship in a Roman Catholic parish, is Roman Catholic.  My private praxis is a mixture of East and West, and I have no problem with that at all.  (And no, I'm *not* schizophrenic  !)

Hope that helps some.

I'm very interested to read replies from other Byzantine Catholics here!

what made you leave the EOC?

Closed communion?

I was baptized into the wonderful Holy Byzantine Catholic Church.  At the same time I was also chrismated, and received Holy Communion.  Sometime later my wife (baptized Byz.Cath, raised RC) and I were received into Orthodoxy (OCA) via chrismation.  Now, I know this may cause some here to become apoplectic , but since our chrismation we have have mainly worshipped and communed in the O.C., but there have been times when (shock, horror, gasp!!!!) we have received communion in the Catholic Church, confessed to and been absolved by Catholic priests.  (Wow---now he's goin' straight to hell in a hand basket!  )

Why do I say all this?  Because I believe in ONE God, in ONE Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church..., in ONE baptism..., etc.  And I believe that that ONE Church is manifested (if that's the right word) in both Orthodoxy AND Catholicism.  And I believe that that makes the apostolicity of both, the validity of the sacraments of both EQUAL.  God is really present in the Eucharist of both.  How could He NOT be?  Can anyone *prove* beyond any reasonable doubt that He is not?  I know, I know....someone out there's going to start throwing theology at me after recovering their eyebrows from the ceiling, but it all boils down to this, as I've asked elsewhere on this forum.....when we come before God at the Final Judgment, will He ask if we were Catholic (yes, and if so, which type?), Orthodox (yes, and if so, which jurisdiction?), Baptist, or Jew, or whatever??  Well....will He?  Or will He ask if we have loved Him, if we have loved our neighbor and our enemy;  if we have fed the hungry, clothed the naked, etc.?  Will He ask if we choose Him or if we choose the other?  I mean, really.....come on folks....I know it's fun and interesting and edifying to argue, discuss, and debate these matters, but are they that which is **really** essential to us as God's children, who, hopefully, love Him above all else?

[Peter J]

Are here any cradle ECs?

Not I.

Anyone that is not LARP-ing?

LARPing sounds like fun, but I don't really have much time for it.

[Deacon Lance]

Are here any cradle ECs? Anyone that is not LARP-ing?

So because my Greek Catholic ancestors were on my mother's side and not my father's I am LARPing?

[Tony]

Are here any cradle ECs? Anyone that is not LARP-ing?

So because my Greek Catholic ancestors were on my mother's side and not my father's I am LARPing?

What does LARPing mean?

[ialmisry]

Are here any cradle ECs? Anyone that is not LARP-ing?

So because my Greek Catholic ancestors were on my mother's side and not my father's I am LARPing?

Code of Canon Law Can. 111 §1. Through the reception of baptism, the child of parents who belong to the Latin Church is enrolled in it, or, if one or the other does not belong to it, both parents have chosen by mutual agreement to have the offspring baptized in the Latin Church. If there is no mutual agreement, however, the child is enrolled in the ritual Church to which the father belongs.

Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium Canon 29

1. By virtue of baptism, a child who has not yet completed his fourteenth year of age is enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the Catholic father; or the Church sui iuris of the mother if only the mother is Catholic or if both parents by agreement freely request it, with due regard for particular law established by the Apostolic See. 2. If the child who has not yet completed his fourteenth year is: (1) born of an unwed mother, he is enrolled in the Church sui iuris to which the mother belongs; (2) born of unknown parents, he is to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of those in whose care he has been legitimately committed are enrolled; if it is a case of an adoptive father and mother, 1 should be applied; (3) born of non-baptized parents, the child is to be a member of the Church sui iuris of the one who is responsible for his education in the Catholic faith.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_PC.HTM#RT
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_PT.HTM

Only you can tell, deacon.

[Peter J]

What does LARPing mean?

LARP = Latin to Another Rite Person

[Aindriú]

What does LARPing mean?

LARP = Latin to Another Rite Person

LOL   

[Deacon Lance]

Only you can tell, deacon.

I can tell and I am familiar with the canons Isa.  As a child I had no say in the matter, when my family moved to a town with a Byzantine Catholic parish when I was 15, I did.  I think it unfair and disrespectful to label me a LARPer because I could not control the parish of my childhood.

[Deacon Lance]

What does LARPing mean?

Live Action Role Playing

[minasoliman]

Something else I've also wondered that many Eastern Catholics seem to keep post-schism saints as part of their own tradition, even if they may have had an anti-Rome understanding.

It's interesting to see for instance MardukM keep people like St. Jacob of Serugh and St. Severus of Antioch as respect church fathers of Coptic Catholics, despite their anti-Chalcedonian stand.

However, what do Eastern Catholics think about keeping things like the Immaculate Conception or Ecclesiology theologomenoun?  Is it necessary to the Catholic faith to have Rome as the infallible head of all churches and the Theotokos as born in a manner similar (although not the same, as I understand it from Marduk) to post-baptism for many Christians?

[dzheremi]

The Ruthenians recited the Filioque when I was with them for a brief period before moving away from Oregon back in 2009. The priest seemed ashamed of it, though, when I asked him about it afterwards (as I had expected them not to say it, and was confused to find that I, a Latin visitor, was the only one who didn't). Take that as you will. There is probably wide variation.

[Peter J]

Something else I've also wondered that many Eastern Catholics seem to keep post-schism saints as part of their own tradition, even if they may have had an anti-Rome understanding.

It's interesting to see for instance MardukM keep people like St. Jacob of Serugh and St. Severus of Antioch as respect church fathers of Coptic Catholics, despite their anti-Chalcedonian stand.

However, what do Eastern Catholics think about keeping things like the Immaculate Conception or Ecclesiology theologomenoun?  Is it necessary to the Catholic faith to have Rome as the infallible head of all churches and the Theotokos as born in a manner similar (although not the same, as I understand it from Marduk) to post-baptism for many Christians?

This may or may not be helpful, but the post from the Catholic Answers Forum that I quoted earlier:

Orthodox ideas are not wrong, but are valid and holy.

was elaborated on later in the same thread:

Indeed, those anti-Catholics ideas that the pope isn't head of the whole church, or that Mary wasn't immaculately conceived etc., aren't the real Orthodox teachings.

Those are not examples of polemics or anti-Catholic ideas. Those are simply their beliefs.

[Peter J]

This was posted on the Catholic Answers Forum, but it seems relevant to your question:

Orthodox ideas are not wrong, but are valid and holy.

Mardukm has always had an interesting perspective on the matter. I am probably a bit more "hardline" than he is, but his viewpoint seems common among many Catholics in general.

I think it goes without saying, but I'll say it anyhow, that Catholic Answers isn't necessarily representative of Catholicism.

[ialmisry]

Only you can tell, deacon.

I can tell and I am familiar with the canons Isa.  As a child I had no say in the matter, when my family moved to a town with a Byzantine Catholic parish when I was 15, I did.  I think it unfair and disrespectful to label me a LARPer because I could not control the parish of my childhood.

You mean me, Deacon?  I haven't labeled anyone a LARPer.  You asked a question that, AFAIK, only you knew the facts to answer the question according to your church's canons.  I don't get those canons myself: my one son was baptized in an OCA parish to which I belonged by the hand of an Antiochian priest, and my other was baptized by the hand of another Antiochian priest in my Antiochian parish to which I belong now but did not then.  In Vatican speak I guess it would be (given the canons governing where who would end up if they submitted to the Vatican) it would be as if the first was baptized in a Ruthenian (the corresponding sui juris to the OCA?) parish to which I belonged by the hand of a Melkite priest, and the other was baptized by the hand of another Melkite priest in a Melkite parish I did not belong to.   But besides pro forma permission for the Antiochian priest to serve at the OCA Cathedral, and the notice to the OCA Cathedral that I was transferring to the Antiochian parish, there was none of this canonical transfer enrollment stuff.  Their mother went from the Romanian Church to the OCA to the Antiochian Archdiocese no problem (her problems only started when she tried to go from the Antiochian to the Romanian to evade ecclesiastical sanction), the hardest part being proof of her baptism in Romania, and the priest took my word on it from evidence I had been presented in Romania.  It would seem our Churches are not as disunited as is made out, and the Vatican's is not as stitched together as claimed.

LARPing I would restrict to those who act Arabized but are not Arab, act Russified but are not Russian, act Hellenized but are not Greek, etc.  Because if one is Arabized, Russified, Hellenized etc. he is Arab, Russian, Greek etc.  Given the way the Vatican has set up its sui juris scheme, I don't think those who are enrolled in a "sui juris" would be LARPing.  Except for this


So Irish Melkite and Apotheum, for instance, would not be LARPers, much less someone of the "sui juris" ethnicity.  If you misunderstood, I apologize.

[J Michael]

Only you can tell, deacon.

I can tell and I am familiar with the canons Isa.  As a child I had no say in the matter, when my family moved to a town with a Byzantine Catholic parish when I was 15, I did.  I think it unfair and disrespectful to label me a LARPer because I could not control the parish of my childhood.

Two questions for you, Deacon:
1.  Did you transfer to the Byzantine Rite because of your calling to the diaconate?

2.  Is there some kind of negative connotation associated with transferring rites?

[Schultz]

Are here any cradle ECs? Anyone that is not LARP-ing?

Wow, really?

I suppose any Orthodox convert is just "LARPing".

Seriously, Michal, the way you asked that question isn't cool.

[biro]

Are here any cradle ECs? Anyone that is not LARP-ing?

Sigh. 

[J Michael]

Are here any cradle ECs? Anyone that is not LARP-ing?

Sigh. 

 +1

But....to give him the benefit of the doubt....if English isn't his first language (and I don't know whether it is or isn't), maybe it just came out that way because of translation issues.  Or something.

[Papist]

So a Latin who attends a Byzantine Parish, understrands Catholic in an Eastern manner, participates in the liturgica life of the Byzantine Parish, etc. is just LARPing???

[J Michael]

So a Latin who attends a Byzantine Parish, understrands Catholic in an Eastern manner, participates in the liturgica life of the Byzantine Parish, etc. is just LARPing???

I certainly see absolutely nothing wrong with it--and may God bless you for it!  But, perhaps in the mind of someone who either doesn't understand Catholicism or who has little or no respect for Catholicism (or both), that might be seen in some kind of negative light.  More's the pity.

[Papist]

So a Latin who attends a Byzantine Parish, understrands Catholic in an Eastern manner, participates in the liturgica life of the Byzantine Parish, etc. is just LARPing???

I certainly see absolutely nothing wrong with it--and may God bless you for it!  But, perhaps in the mind of someone who either doesn't understand Catholicism or who has little or no respect for Catholicism (or both), that might be seen in some kind of negative light.  More's the pity.

Well I appreciate your perspective. I'm going to evening prayer, as well as the Liturgy of the Presanctified tonight. I've been looking forward to it all week.

[J Michael]

So a Latin who attends a Byzantine Parish, understrands Catholic in an Eastern manner, participates in the liturgica life of the Byzantine Parish, etc. is just LARPing???

I certainly see absolutely nothing wrong with it--and may God bless you for it!  But, perhaps in the mind of someone who either doesn't understand Catholicism or who has little or no respect for Catholicism (or both), that might be seen in some kind of negative light.  More's the pity.

Well I appreciate your perspective. I'm going to evening prayer, as well as the Liturgy of the Presanctified tonight. I've been looking forward to it all week.

It'd be great if all Catholics were able to experience both Eastern and Western Catholicism in order to really appreciate the depth, fullness, and breadth of the Catholic Church.  Good for you!

[Peter J]

So a Latin who attends a Byzantine Parish, understrands Catholic in an Eastern manner, participates in the liturgica life of the Byzantine Parish, etc.

That describes me for the last 9 years. (Unless you mean Byzantine Parish as specifically BCA. I've only been to Melkite and Ukrainian parishes.)

[Papist]

So a Latin who attends a Byzantine Parish, understrands Catholic in an Eastern manner, participates in the liturgica life of the Byzantine Parish, etc.

That describes me for the last 9 years. (Unless you mean Byzantine Parish as specifically BCA. I've only been to Melkite and Ukrainian parishes.)

I just meant all Catholic Churches that use the Byzantine Rite.

[Tags:]

OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion > Orthodox-Catholic Discussion (Moderator: username!) > Topic: Question for Byzantine Catholics?