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Author Topic: Question for Byzantine Catholics?  (Read 8905 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2012, 12:56:17 PM »

So a Latin who attends a Byzantine Parish, understrands Catholic in an Eastern manner, participates in the liturgica life of the Byzantine Parish, etc.

That describes me for the last 9 years. (Unless you mean Byzantine Parish as specifically BCA. I've only been to Melkite and Ukrainian parishes.)
I just meant all Catholic Churches that use the Byzantine Rite.

In that case, disregard my parenthetical remark.
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« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2012, 01:16:26 PM »

praying before icons

Huh? You have ancient Latin churches filled with Byzantine-ish icons and 7. Ecumenical Council and you still consider that as an Eastern tradition?
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« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2012, 01:33:02 PM »

praying before icons

Huh? You have ancient Latin churches filled with Byzantine-ish icons and 7. Ecumenical Council and you still consider that as an Eastern tradition?

If I understood your question correctly (and I'm not sure that I did), I'd just say that the vast majority of Western Catholics that I know of do not pray before icons when praying privately, whereas many, if not most, Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics do.  (Interesting to note that a number of Orthodox I know *only* come into the presence of icons at church.)  So, yes, one could fairly accurately say that praying before icons is more common (but by no means exclusive) to Eastern traditions than to Western.
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« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2012, 02:38:21 PM »

praying before icons

Huh? You have ancient Latin churches filled with Byzantine-ish icons and 7. Ecumenical Council and you still consider that as an Eastern tradition?
We heretical-schismatic-apostate-rationalist Latins tend to pray before statues.  Grin
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« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2012, 02:39:32 PM »

praying before icons

Huh? You have ancient Latin churches filled with Byzantine-ish icons and 7. Ecumenical Council and you still consider that as an Eastern tradition?
We heretical-schismatic-apostate-rationalist Latins tend to pray before statues.  Grin

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek!!!!!  Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked


 angel
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« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2012, 02:47:04 PM »

praying before icons

Huh? You have ancient Latin churches filled with Byzantine-ish icons and 7. Ecumenical Council and you still consider that as an Eastern tradition?
We heretical-schismatic-apostate-rationalist Latins tend to pray before statues.  Grin

OK, that was weird.
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« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2012, 03:01:02 PM »

praying before icons

Huh? You have ancient Latin churches filled with Byzantine-ish icons and 7. Ecumenical Council and you still consider that as an Eastern tradition?
We heretical-schismatic-apostate-rationalist Latins tend to pray before statues.  Grin
Your statues can pray?
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« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2012, 03:11:22 PM »

praying before icons

Huh? You have ancient Latin churches filled with Byzantine-ish icons and 7. Ecumenical Council and you still consider that as an Eastern tradition?
We heretical-schismatic-apostate-rationalist Latins tend to pray before statues.  Grin
Your statues can pray?
Ha! No, I was saying that we pray in front of statues, much like EOs pray in front of icons.
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« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2012, 03:12:02 PM »

praying before icons

Huh? You have ancient Latin churches filled with Byzantine-ish icons and 7. Ecumenical Council and you still consider that as an Eastern tradition?
We heretical-schismatic-apostate-rationalist Latins tend to pray before statues.  Grin
OK, that was weird.
Well, I was just being goofy, but I guess this didn't land well. My bad.  Cheesy
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« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2012, 03:24:20 PM »

My guess is born Greek Catholics like born Orthodox tend not to hang out on the Internet talking about church.

You've got the majority of GCs, cradles/ethnics, who essentially are like modern Roman Riters but with a better liturgy. You've got a minority of folk, usually converts/born Roman Riters, who do what Rome wants GCs to do, be Orthodox in practice while upholding all Catholic doctrine. Then you have the tiny minority of self-styled 'Orthodox in communion with Rome' who repeat all the Orthodox anti-Roman views but stay for some reason. More like Protestants who happen to agree with the Orthodox than good Orthodox or good Catholics.

I like Deacon Lance's profession of faith: fits the second category.

The two insights/takeaways I get from 20 years of being around this tradition are the appeal of a local, ethnic/family-based (ethnicity/church as big family, but small parish like a family) grassroots traditionalism (which includes Deacon Lance's 'papal minimalism': the authority of custom, not micromanagement from the top), which you can find a form of among GCs (it's like the '50s but that seems more natural there, because it never went away, than at a Roman Rite traditionalist chapel, a conscious re-enactment; ethnic OCA and ACROD parishes are a lot like that), and Leonid Ouspensky's view of icons as something like a sacramental presence.

Re: some Orthodox only seeing icons in church, of course. Not everybody is churchy.

Many here know my line: rite controls what you do in church. Devotion at home is freestyle: pray any way you like and venerate anybody you want.

I wouldn't call a born Roman Riter going to a GC church and/or doing Byzantine Rite practices at home a LARPer if he's not a theological liberal.
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« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2012, 03:27:13 PM »

Good to see you on the forum still, young fogey.
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« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2012, 03:47:05 PM »

praying before icons

Huh? You have ancient Latin churches filled with Byzantine-ish icons and 7. Ecumenical Council and you still consider that as an Eastern tradition?
We heretical-schismatic-apostate-rationalist Latins tend to pray before statues.  Grin
Your statues can pray?

Grin

I'm reminded of my bible study group, about a decade ago. We were discussing "All who came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them." (at least that was the verse) and someone suggested that Jesus really meant "those before me" i.e. the pharisees who were physically standing before him.

But I digress.
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« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2012, 04:12:45 PM »

^like
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« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2012, 04:55:28 PM »

Then you have the tiny minority of self-styled 'Orthodox in communion with Rome' who repeat all the Orthodox anti-Roman views but stay for some reason.

In my experience, it's dangerous to draw conclusions about an Eastern Catholic based on the fact that he/she calls himself/herself 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'.
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« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2012, 04:58:24 PM »

Then you have the tiny minority of self-styled 'Orthodox in communion with Rome' who repeat all the Orthodox anti-Roman views but stay for some reason.

In my experience, it's dangerous to draw conclusions about an Eastern Catholic based on the fact that he/she calls himself/herself 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'.

It's safe to conclude that he is a BSer and ignore his incoherent opinions.
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« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2012, 05:00:50 PM »

I have a few questions for the Byzantine Catholics on this forum. This is not a loyalty test. I am not interested in that stuff right now. I'm just trying to understand Byzantine Catholicism better. Probably because, while I am very Thomistic Latin, I absolutely love attending Byzantine Liturgy, and during Lent I ususally attend verspers and the Liturgy of the Presanctified on Friday evenings. Something about that Byzantine parish has always had quite a draw for me. Thus, I want to know more about how Byzantine Catholics understand the faith, and because this is an Orthodox forum, I would like to know more about how the Byzantine Catholics on this forum relate to Eastern Orthodox Christians.
First, how you understand your ecclesial position withe regard to both Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics?
Second, how is your experience of the Catholic faith different than that of Roman Catholics?
Third, as a Byzantine Catholic, do you believe in Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope, and the Infallibility of the Pope?
If you don't believe in these things, do you think that Roman Catholics are in heresy or error?
Fourth, do you see yourself as closer in faith and religious praxis to the Orthodox, than you do the Roman Catholics?
Fifth, if you are a Byzantine Catholic who was once a Roman Catholic, what has changed about the experience of your faith since you have switched to an Eastern Church?

Hmm....Interesting questions...

Let me start by saying that my experience may be somewhat different from the usual ByzCath in that I came to Christianity from a secular Jewish background relatively late in life (about age 49) and hence whatever baggage I brought with me will be of an entirely different order than that of someone raised in a Christian church, more specifically either the Byzantine or Roman Catholic Church.  

My experience may also be somewhat different in that while I was baptized, etc. into the ByzCath Church and remain canonically Byzantine, I've spent more years worshiping in and being a member of a Roman Catholic parish than a Byzantine one.  I also spent several years in the Orthodox Church and then returned to Catholicism.

Now to your questions....

1.  I'm not entirely sure what you mean by ecclesial position, but I'll take a stab at it anyway.  I am a member of the Body of Christ.  I am a member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  My *opinion*, for which I've taken some heat on this board,  is that the Orthodox Church is also a part of that same One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and I feel that our separation, the schism, is sinful and the perpetuation of it equally so.  Sometimes I feel more strongly about this, sometimes less so.  And sometimes I think I may be gradually coming to think of us as "irreconcilable" and that saddens me enormously.  But then I remember that with God, all things are possible!  As for Roman Catholics, that's easy!  They are my brothers and sisters in Christ and we are part and parcel of the same Church.  I feel equally at home in a Roman Catholic church as I do in a Byzantine--sometimes even more so.  Unlike some ByzCaths, because of my background and lack of attachments and prejudices about a particular "version" of Catholicism, I don't particularly lament the so-called "Latinizations" that have occurred.  Sorry to be so verbose!  And vague.

2.  I don't know if a life-long ByzCath would be able to answer that.  In fact, I would venture to guess that *any* Catholic you would ask might have a slightly different answer than any other Catholic, of whatever persuasion.  Maybe I'm just not certain either what you mean by "your experience of the Catholic faith", or how I would express an answer that would make sense.  Sorry... Sad.

3.  Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes--though I won't pretend that I understand all of those as deeply or thoroughly as others, or as deeply as I would wish to.  I am aware, however, that there may be some Byzantine Catholics who might hedge their bets about some of those, or would, perhaps use slightly different language to express the same things.

4.  My *faith* is Catholic--in almost all ways very close to Orthodoxy (I know some of my Orthodox brothers and sisters will take issue with that, but that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it  Grin!)  My public praxis, given that my wife and I worship in a Roman Catholic parish, is Roman Catholic.  My private praxis is a mixture of East and West, and I have no problem with that at all.  (And no, I'm *not* schizophrenic  Wink Wink!)

Hope that helps some.

I'm very interested to read replies from other Byzantine Catholics here!
Very interesting. In the past when I adopted certain Byzantine spiritual practices, I was discouraged by some from the East, because they thought it was bad to mix the two.

In the past, mixing practices took the form of imposing Latin practices on ECs.
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« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2012, 05:08:17 PM »

Most of the time the GCs disobeyed Rome by latinizing themselves.
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« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2012, 05:33:13 PM »

Most of the time the GCs disobeyed Rome by latinizing themselves.

Okay, I admit I'm intrigued. Also puzzled.
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« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2012, 05:33:34 PM »

So a Latin who attends a Byzantine Parish, understrands Catholic in an Eastern manner, participates in the liturgica life of the Byzantine Parish, etc. is just LARPing???

Huh? Eastern manner?  I wish the Orthodox parishes there returned to Orthodoxy from Greek Catholicism would just shed most of their Greek catholic practices.  It's so ingrained that people don't even realize it.  Most of the time people left because of rome's dictates, ie, celibacy, calender and property issues.  It's been for most an 80 year adventure but yet there are still a few things that need to be done away with.  So what you call eastern mindset in a GC parish is what we would call a western influence in our parishes (that were former GC).
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« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2012, 05:35:53 PM »

Most of the time the GCs disobeyed Rome by latinizing themselves.

Like the current Ruthenian liturgy.  The powers that be just hobbled it together and Rome didn't ask them to do it.  Instead of "God who loves mankind" it's "God who loves us all" and for us men and for... in their creed is "for us and our salvation" among a bunch of other late 1960's-1970's kumbya words.  Blame Uniontown partially on this. 
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« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2012, 05:56:17 PM »

Then you have the tiny minority of self-styled 'Orthodox in communion with Rome' who repeat all the Orthodox anti-Roman views but stay for some reason.

In my experience, it's dangerous to draw conclusions about an Eastern Catholic based on the fact that he/she calls himself/herself 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'.

It's safe to conclude that he is a BSer and ignore his incoherent opinions.

Who are you referring to?
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« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2012, 05:59:47 PM »

Then you have the tiny minority of self-styled 'Orthodox in communion with Rome' who repeat all the Orthodox anti-Roman views but stay for some reason.

In my experience, it's dangerous to draw conclusions about an Eastern Catholic based on the fact that he/she calls himself/herself 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'.

It's safe to conclude that he is a BSer and ignore his incoherent opinions.

Who are you referring to?

Anyone calling himself "Orthodox in communion with Rome."
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« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2012, 06:01:27 PM »

I have a few questions for the Byzantine Catholics on this forum. This is not a loyalty test. I am not interested in that stuff right now. I'm just trying to understand Byzantine Catholicism better. Probably because, while I am very Thomistic Latin, I absolutely love attending Byzantine Liturgy, and during Lent I ususally attend verspers and the Liturgy of the Presanctified on Friday evenings. Something about that Byzantine parish has always had quite a draw for me. Thus, I want to know more about how Byzantine Catholics understand the faith, and because this is an Orthodox forum, I would like to know more about how the Byzantine Catholics on this forum relate to Eastern Orthodox Christians.
First, how you understand your ecclesial position withe regard to both Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics?
Second, how is your experience of the Catholic faith different than that of Roman Catholics?
Third, as a Byzantine Catholic, do you believe in Original Sin, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope, and the Infallibility of the Pope?
If you don't believe in these things, do you think that Roman Catholics are in heresy or error?
Fourth, do you see yourself as closer in faith and religious praxis to the Orthodox, than you do the Roman Catholics?
Fifth, if you are a Byzantine Catholic who was once a Roman Catholic, what has changed about the experience of your faith since you have switched to an Eastern Church?

Hmm....Interesting questions...

Let me start by saying that my experience may be somewhat different from the usual ByzCath in that I came to Christianity from a secular Jewish background relatively late in life (about age 49) and hence whatever baggage I brought with me will be of an entirely different order than that of someone raised in a Christian church, more specifically either the Byzantine or Roman Catholic Church.  

My experience may also be somewhat different in that while I was baptized, etc. into the ByzCath Church and remain canonically Byzantine, I've spent more years worshiping in and being a member of a Roman Catholic parish than a Byzantine one.  I also spent several years in the Orthodox Church and then returned to Catholicism.

Now to your questions....

1.  I'm not entirely sure what you mean by ecclesial position, but I'll take a stab at it anyway.  I am a member of the Body of Christ.  I am a member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  My *opinion*, for which I've taken some heat on this board,  is that the Orthodox Church is also a part of that same One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and I feel that our separation, the schism, is sinful and the perpetuation of it equally so.  Sometimes I feel more strongly about this, sometimes less so.  And sometimes I think I may be gradually coming to think of us as "irreconcilable" and that saddens me enormously.  But then I remember that with God, all things are possible!  As for Roman Catholics, that's easy!  They are my brothers and sisters in Christ and we are part and parcel of the same Church.  I feel equally at home in a Roman Catholic church as I do in a Byzantine--sometimes even more so.  Unlike some ByzCaths, because of my background and lack of attachments and prejudices about a particular "version" of Catholicism, I don't particularly lament the so-called "Latinizations" that have occurred.  Sorry to be so verbose!  And vague.

2.  I don't know if a life-long ByzCath would be able to answer that.  In fact, I would venture to guess that *any* Catholic you would ask might have a slightly different answer than any other Catholic, of whatever persuasion.  Maybe I'm just not certain either what you mean by "your experience of the Catholic faith", or how I would express an answer that would make sense.  Sorry... Sad.

3.  Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes--though I won't pretend that I understand all of those as deeply or thoroughly as others, or as deeply as I would wish to.  I am aware, however, that there may be some Byzantine Catholics who might hedge their bets about some of those, or would, perhaps use slightly different language to express the same things.

4.  My *faith* is Catholic--in almost all ways very close to Orthodoxy (I know some of my Orthodox brothers and sisters will take issue with that, but that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it  Grin!)  My public praxis, given that my wife and I worship in a Roman Catholic parish, is Roman Catholic.  My private praxis is a mixture of East and West, and I have no problem with that at all.  (And no, I'm *not* schizophrenic  Wink Wink!)

Hope that helps some.

I'm very interested to read replies from other Byzantine Catholics here!
Very interesting. In the past when I adopted certain Byzantine spiritual practices, I was discouraged by some from the East, because they thought it was bad to mix the two.

In the past, mixing practices took the form of imposing Latin practices on ECs.

I think the "imposition of Latin practices" was on a more formal, liturgical level rather than on the level of private praxis that Papist was, I believe, referring to.  Unless one is under obedience to a "spiritual father" how and where and in front of what one prays and which prayers are said, etc. is strictly between the person praying and God--provided, of course, that one is doing nothing heretical or outside of Church norms.
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« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2012, 06:05:38 PM »

You mean me, Deacon? ... If you misunderstood, I apologize.

I was refering to Michal, but thank you.
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« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2012, 06:06:43 PM »

Examples of latinizations that used to occur, maybe do in one or places still in Greek Catholic parishes (byzantine catholics as well)
first communion at age 5/6
stations of the cross during lent
eucharistic adoration (haven't seen this since 2005)
mandated celibacy for priests (still pretty much the standard)
use of Latin pascha date (which still occurs all over North America)
use of paten during communion (still occurs)
people kneeling to receive (still occurs)
one hour fast before communion (still occurs)
no use of hot water during preparation of the chalice (zeon)  still occurs
pre-cut bread for proskomedia still occurs
laity distributing communion
use of paraliturgical hymns before liturgy and after presanctified
I can on if you'd like
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« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2012, 06:08:23 PM »

Only you can tell, deacon.


So Irish Melkite and Apotheum, for instance, would not be LARPers, much less someone of the "sui juris" ethnicity.  If you misunderstood, I apologize.

The whole subject of LARper is new to me and I have had a nightmare or two about it.  Don't ever use the word "LARper in the same sentence as Irish Melkite please.
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« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2012, 06:09:15 PM »

Then you have the tiny minority of self-styled 'Orthodox in communion with Rome' who repeat all the Orthodox anti-Roman views but stay for some reason.

In my experience, it's dangerous to draw conclusions about an Eastern Catholic based on the fact that he/she calls himself/herself 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'.

It's safe to conclude that he is a BSer and ignore his incoherent opinions.

Who are you referring to?

Anyone calling himself "Orthodox in communion with Rome."

Okay.  Everyone's entitled to an opinion.  Incoherent or otherwise.  Sometimes, though, people whose opinions we think are incoherent, or stupid, or crazy, or whatever just *may* be on to something correct or accurate or valuable, and our own opinions (prejudices?) get in the way of allowing us to recognize that.  Oh well...
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« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2012, 06:17:07 PM »

Most of the time the GCs disobeyed Rome by latinizing themselves.

Like the current Ruthenian liturgy.  The powers that be just hobbled it together and Rome didn't ask them to do it.  Instead of "God who loves mankind" it's "God who loves us all" and for us men and for... in their creed is "for us and our salvation"

How are those latinizations?
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« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2012, 06:18:25 PM »

Most of the time the GCs disobeyed Rome by latinizing themselves.

Like the current Ruthenian liturgy.  The powers that be just hobbled it together and Rome didn't ask them to do it.  Instead of "God who loves mankind" it's "God who loves us all" and for us men and for... in their creed is "for us and our salvation" among a bunch of other late 1960's-1970's kumbya words.  Blame Uniontown partially on this. 

Would you call these changes "Ruthenianizations", "bastardizations", or something else  Wink?
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« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2012, 06:18:49 PM »

Most of the time the GCs disobeyed Rome by latinizing themselves.

Like the current Ruthenian liturgy.  The powers that be just hobbled it together and Rome didn't ask them to do it.  Instead of "God who loves mankind" it's "God who loves us all" and for us men and for... in their creed is "for us and our salvation"

How are those latinizations?

See my post above.
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« Reply #75 on: March 09, 2012, 06:19:20 PM »

I think the "imposition of Latin practices" was on a more formal, liturgical level rather than on the level of private praxis that Papist was, I believe, referring to.  Unless one is under obedience to a "spiritual father" how and where and in front of what one prays and which prayers are said, etc. is strictly between the person praying and God--provided, of course, that one is doing nothing heretical or outside of Church norms.

Actually very little was ever mandated by Rome other than celibacy outside Eastern Europe and the Middle East for Eastern Catholics.  Rome certainly encouraged others or turned their head the other way, but most of the Latinization was voluntary adoption with strong encouragement from Latin Religious Orders in the area.
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« Reply #76 on: March 09, 2012, 06:22:57 PM »

I think the "imposition of Latin practices" was on a more formal, liturgical level rather than on the level of private praxis that Papist was, I believe, referring to.  Unless one is under obedience to a "spiritual father" how and where and in front of what one prays and which prayers are said, etc. is strictly between the person praying and God--provided, of course, that one is doing nothing heretical or outside of Church norms.

Actually very little was ever mandated by Rome other than celibacy outside Eastern Europe and the Middle East for Eastern Catholics.  Rome certainly encouraged others or turned their head the other way, but most of the Latinization was voluntary adoption with strong encouragement from Latin Religious Orders in the area.

And some of the at least offensive latin actions I have seen are from the bi-ritual latin priests.  I knew one parish where the bi-ritual priest would invite his buddies to celebrate, he removed icons and replaced them "to match each other" (whereas the ones that were there were donations over 100 years from parishoners) he removed slavonic totally, when the new liturgy came out I know a good bit of the parish went down the street to ACROD.
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« Reply #77 on: March 09, 2012, 06:24:26 PM »

I think the "imposition of Latin practices" was on a more formal, liturgical level rather than on the level of private praxis that Papist was, I believe, referring to.  Unless one is under obedience to a "spiritual father" how and where and in front of what one prays and which prayers are said, etc. is strictly between the person praying and God--provided, of course, that one is doing nothing heretical or outside of Church norms.

Actually very little was ever mandated by Rome other than celibacy outside Eastern Europe and the Middle East for Eastern Catholics.  Rome certainly encouraged others or turned their head the other way, but most of the Latinization was voluntary adoption with strong encouragement from Latin Religious Orders in the area.

Very interesting!  I never knew that.  So why, then, all the whining and criticizing of some about "imposed" Latinizations?  Does that come out of an overall anti-Catholic bias, or out of a bias against things "Latin" or Roman Catholic?
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« Reply #78 on: March 09, 2012, 06:26:42 PM »

I think the "imposition of Latin practices" was on a more formal, liturgical level rather than on the level of private praxis that Papist was, I believe, referring to.  Unless one is under obedience to a "spiritual father" how and where and in front of what one prays and which prayers are said, etc. is strictly between the person praying and God--provided, of course, that one is doing nothing heretical or outside of Church norms.

Actually very little was ever mandated by Rome other than celibacy outside Eastern Europe and the Middle East for Eastern Catholics.  Rome certainly encouraged others or turned their head the other way, but most of the Latinization was voluntary adoption with strong encouragement from Latin Religious Orders in the area.

Very interesting!  I never knew that.  So why, then, all the whining and criticizing of some about "imposed" Latinizations?  Does that come out of an overall anti-Catholic bias, or out of a bias against things "Latin" or Roman Catholic?

It's a generalization.  There are specific events and times perhaps that latin-trends came into usage and I'm sure each one has a different story.  The terribly translated recent Ruthenian divine liturgy is an example where Rome didn't tell the bishops in the USA to do it, they just did it but Rome did approve it. 
I have seen former RC converts who are orthodox priests invent their own "junk" into liturgy and then have the parish pick it up as practice. 
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« Reply #79 on: March 09, 2012, 06:29:33 PM »

I think the "imposition of Latin practices" was on a more formal, liturgical level rather than on the level of private praxis that Papist was, I believe, referring to.  Unless one is under obedience to a "spiritual father" how and where and in front of what one prays and which prayers are said, etc. is strictly between the person praying and God--provided, of course, that one is doing nothing heretical or outside of Church norms.

Actually very little was ever mandated by Rome other than celibacy outside Eastern Europe and the Middle East for Eastern Catholics.  Rome certainly encouraged others or turned their head the other way, but most of the Latinization was voluntary adoption with strong encouragement from Latin Religious Orders in the area.

Very interesting!  I never knew that.  So why, then, all the whining and criticizing of some about "imposed" Latinizations?  Does that come out of an overall anti-Catholic bias, or out of a bias against things "Latin" or Roman Catholic?

It's a generalization.  There are specific events and times perhaps that latin-trends came into usage and I'm sure each one has a different story.  The terribly translated recent Ruthenian divine liturgy is an example where Rome didn't tell the bishops in the USA to do it, they just did it but Rome did approve it. 
I have seen former RC converts who are orthodox priests invent their own "junk" into liturgy and then have the parish pick it up as practice. 

So basically the Ruthenians did it to themselves.  That's too bad.  What were they thinking? 
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« Reply #80 on: March 09, 2012, 07:54:51 PM »

I think the "imposition of Latin practices" was on a more formal, liturgical level rather than on the level of private praxis that Papist was, I believe, referring to.  Unless one is under obedience to a "spiritual father" how and where and in front of what one prays and which prayers are said, etc. is strictly between the person praying and God--provided, of course, that one is doing nothing heretical or outside of Church norms.

Actually very little was ever mandated by Rome other than celibacy outside Eastern Europe and the Middle East for Eastern Catholics.  Rome certainly encouraged others or turned their head the other way, but most of the Latinization was voluntary adoption with strong encouragement from Latin Religious Orders in the area.

Very interesting!  I never knew that.  So why, then, all the whining and criticizing of some about "imposed" Latinizations?  Does that come out of an overall anti-Catholic bias, or out of a bias against things "Latin" or Roman Catholic?

It's a generalization.  There are specific events and times perhaps that latin-trends came into usage and I'm sure each one has a different story.  The terribly translated recent Ruthenian divine liturgy is an example where Rome didn't tell the bishops in the USA to do it, they just did it but Rome did approve it. 

Who appointed those bishops?
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« Reply #81 on: March 09, 2012, 08:20:38 PM »

praying before icons

Huh? You have ancient Latin churches filled with Byzantine-ish icons and 7. Ecumenical Council and you still consider that as an Eastern tradition?

If I understood your question correctly (and I'm not sure that I did), I'd just say that the vast majority of Western Catholics that I know of do not pray before icons when praying privately, whereas many, if not most, Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics do.  (Interesting to note that a number of Orthodox I know *only* come into the presence of icons at church.)  So, yes, one could fairly accurately say that praying before icons is more common (but by no means exclusive) to Eastern traditions than to Western.
so is confessing the Universal Creed of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, but that doesn't make that Ecumenical Creed more Eastern.
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« Reply #82 on: March 09, 2012, 08:20:39 PM »

praying before icons

Huh? You have ancient Latin churches filled with Byzantine-ish icons and 7. Ecumenical Council and you still consider that as an Eastern tradition?
We heretical-schismatic-apostate-rationalist Latins tend to pray before statues.  Grin
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« Reply #83 on: March 09, 2012, 08:20:39 PM »

Most of the time the GCs disobeyed Rome by latinizing themselves.
LOL.  The Vatican would have to forbid it for them to disobey.  What the Vatican did to the Italo-Greeks, however, doesn't reveal a history of such a prohibition.
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« Reply #84 on: March 09, 2012, 08:20:39 PM »

Then you have the tiny minority of self-styled 'Orthodox in communion with Rome' who repeat all the Orthodox anti-Roman views but stay for some reason.

In my experience, it's dangerous to draw conclusions about an Eastern Catholic based on the fact that he/she calls himself/herself 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'.
Most I have come across are like Mardukm, who call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" and claim that the Orthodox really believe the "Latin dogmas", e.g. IC, atonement, treasury of merit, the papal system, etc.
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« Reply #85 on: March 09, 2012, 08:27:34 PM »

Then you have the tiny minority of self-styled 'Orthodox in communion with Rome' who repeat all the Orthodox anti-Roman views but stay for some reason.

In my experience, it's dangerous to draw conclusions about an Eastern Catholic based on the fact that he/she calls himself/herself 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'.
Most I have come across are like Mardukm, who call themselves "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" and claim that the Orthodox really believe the "Latin dogmas", e.g. IC, atonement, treasury of merit, the papal system, etc.
mmmmm. Latin dogmas. Papist said in the voice of Homer Simpson.
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« Reply #86 on: March 09, 2012, 08:30:53 PM »

Is there such a thing as a "Latin dogma"? A dogma is a dogma. How can something be a dogma only for the Latin Rite and not for the whole Church?
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« Reply #87 on: March 09, 2012, 08:32:39 PM »

Is there such a thing as a "Latin dogma"? A dogma is a dogma. How can something be a dogma only for the Latin Rite and not for the whole Church?
agreed.
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« Reply #88 on: March 09, 2012, 08:38:29 PM »

Are here any cradle ECs? Anyone that is not LARP-ing?

Wow, really?

I suppose any Orthodox convert is just "LARPing".

Seriously, Michal, the way you asked that question isn't cool.

Most of the posters that answered the OP are either jumpers from the Latin Rite or converts from other religious groups. With all the repsect I wouldn't agree that they share sentiments and stereotypes with the cradle ECs. IMO if one would like to know the opinion of the ECs on the RCs they should not ask the RC to EC jumpers because it would be falsified.

I'm not questioning the dedication of the strength of faith of the aforementioned posters. I don't care about them. I only think that their opinion has nothing in common with the opinion of the majority of the Eastern Catholics. They are not representative.
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« Reply #89 on: March 09, 2012, 08:42:52 PM »

Is there such a thing as a "Latin dogma"? A dogma is a dogma. How can something be a dogma only for the Latin Rite and not for the whole Church?
agreed.

+1

What a shame, though hardly unexpected, that we seem to have moved so far from your original questions.  Hopefully this thread won't disintegrate into the kind of un-Christian sniping and one-upmanship that so many others have.
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