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Protoevangel
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« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2012, 12:02:46 PM »

I also think that it's too much to concede to the secularists that all arguments about public morality should have no reference to God or religion. Morality is inseparable from faith for Orthodox Christians. Why should the secularists get to impose their atheistic assumptions on the terms of the debate? Why shouldn't we proceed on the assumption that there is a God and that God is concerned with how we live our lives?
Don't be silly, we do proceed on the assumption that there is a God and that God is concerned with how we live our lives. It isn't conceding anything to point out basic rationality.
What?
Very simply, you said, "I also think that it's too much to concede to the secularists that all arguments about public morality should have no reference to God or religion.", and I replied that "It isn't conceding anything to point out basic rationality." You see, all true rationality and reason has it's beginning and end in God, whether you, or the atheist, recognizes that fact or not.

You also said, "Why shouldn't we proceed on the assumption that there is a God and that God is concerned with how we live our lives?", and I replied that "... we [as Orthodox Christians], do proceed on the assumption that there is a God and that God is concerned with how we live our lives." If we do not, then we are no longer Orthodox. You see, it is downright foolish to postulate that one who thinks an issue through from multiple angles, and is able to make a rational argument from diverse points of view, does not assume or fully recognize and assent that God is concerned with how we live our lives.

This is not to say, however, that God should be excluded entirely from the discussion... Just that not every point in an argument has to explicitly reference Him. If God is truly God, then all truth ultimately points to Him, whether you name Him explicitly in every point or not, because as the Psalist has said, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork."

To put it in other words, using a well-thought-out argument to a hard-headed, hard-hearted secularist, without directly referencing God, as part of an overall approach, is not in any way, rejecting God, His law, or His love. It is not conceding anything. It is not failing to recognize Him and His concern for how we live our lives. And finally, it does not, as another poster suggested, legitimatize the idea that secularism is valid. It is instead, a sign that the person making the argument is willing to think the issue through, and best his opponent on his own "turf", so to speak.
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"The unholy doubt, not because they are ostensibly more rational, but because they are unholy.
The holier man is always the more rational, for in the clear mirror of his heart he sees the truth.
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« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2012, 01:34:48 PM »

I also think that it's too much to concede to the secularists that all arguments about public morality should have no reference to God or religion. Morality is inseparable from faith for Orthodox Christians. Why should the secularists get to impose their atheistic assumptions on the terms of the debate? Why shouldn't we proceed on the assumption that there is a God and that God is concerned with how we live our lives?
Don't be silly, we do proceed on the assumption that there is a God and that God is concerned with how we live our lives. It isn't conceding anything to point out basic rationality.
What?
Very simply, you said, "I also think that it's too much to concede to the secularists that all arguments about public morality should have no reference to God or religion.", and I replied that "It isn't conceding anything to point out basic rationality." You see, all true rationality and reason has it's beginning and end in God, whether you, or the atheist, recognizes that fact or not.

You also said, "Why shouldn't we proceed on the assumption that there is a God and that God is concerned with how we live our lives?", and I replied that "... we [as Orthodox Christians], do proceed on the assumption that there is a God and that God is concerned with how we live our lives." If we do not, then we are no longer Orthodox. You see, it is downright foolish to postulate that one who thinks an issue through from multiple angles, and is able to make a rational argument from diverse points of view, does not assume or fully recognize and assent that God is concerned with how we live our lives.

This is not to say, however, that God should be excluded entirely from the discussion... Just that not every point in an argument has to explicitly reference Him. If God is truly God, then all truth ultimately points to Him, whether you name Him explicitly in every point or not, because as the Psalist has said, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork."

To put it in other words, using a well-thought-out argument to a hard-headed, hard-hearted secularist, without directly referencing God, as part of an overall approach, is not in any way, rejecting God, His law, or His love. It is not conceding anything. It is not failing to recognize Him and His concern for how we live our lives. And finally, it does not, as another poster suggested, legitimatize the idea that secularism is valid. It is instead, a sign that the person making the argument is willing to think the issue through, and best his opponent on his own "turf", so to speak.

OK I see what you mean. I suppose it does depend on whether the secularist shares your moral assumptions, even if he doesn't share your faith. But if a secularist insists that humanity depends on self-awareness, rather than being genetically distinct, I don't see how I could contradict him without appealing to my faith. Humanity is really a philosophical concept, not a scientific one, so it's up to each individual to define the term.
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Protoevangel
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« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2012, 02:23:15 PM »

I also think that it's too much to concede to the secularists that all arguments about public morality should have no reference to God or religion. Morality is inseparable from faith for Orthodox Christians. Why should the secularists get to impose their atheistic assumptions on the terms of the debate? Why shouldn't we proceed on the assumption that there is a God and that God is concerned with how we live our lives?
Don't be silly, we do proceed on the assumption that there is a God and that God is concerned with how we live our lives. It isn't conceding anything to point out basic rationality.
What?
Very simply, you said, "I also think that it's too much to concede to the secularists that all arguments about public morality should have no reference to God or religion.", and I replied that "It isn't conceding anything to point out basic rationality." You see, all true rationality and reason has it's beginning and end in God, whether you, or the atheist, recognizes that fact or not.

You also said, "Why shouldn't we proceed on the assumption that there is a God and that God is concerned with how we live our lives?", and I replied that "... we [as Orthodox Christians], do proceed on the assumption that there is a God and that God is concerned with how we live our lives." If we do not, then we are no longer Orthodox. You see, it is downright foolish to postulate that one who thinks an issue through from multiple angles, and is able to make a rational argument from diverse points of view, does not assume or fully recognize and assent that God is concerned with how we live our lives.

This is not to say, however, that God should be excluded entirely from the discussion... Just that not every point in an argument has to explicitly reference Him. If God is truly God, then all truth ultimately points to Him, whether you name Him explicitly in every point or not, because as the Psalist has said, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork."

To put it in other words, using a well-thought-out argument to a hard-headed, hard-hearted secularist, without directly referencing God, as part of an overall approach, is not in any way, rejecting God, His law, or His love. It is not conceding anything. It is not failing to recognize Him and His concern for how we live our lives. And finally, it does not, as another poster suggested, legitimatize the idea that secularism is valid. It is instead, a sign that the person making the argument is willing to think the issue through, and best his opponent on his own "turf", so to speak.

OK I see what you mean. I suppose it does depend on whether the secularist shares your moral assumptions, even if he doesn't share your faith. But if a secularist insists that humanity depends on self-awareness, rather than being genetically distinct, I don't see how I could contradict him without appealing to my faith. Humanity is really a philosophical concept, not a scientific one, so it's up to each individual to define the term.
Agreed. That's why I approach the issue distinguishing what the secularist knows, instead of what he thinks.

Of course, that does not mean that the secularist will be able to accept the logic I presented (or even that my approach is the perfect one, which it is not), just that it is the closest that I can see us finding common ground on the issue. If they can acknowledge that they do not know definitively that the unborn child is not human, then they should be able to infer (whether they ultimately accept it or not), that killing the child is at the very least, irresponsible.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 02:27:22 PM by Protoevangel » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2012, 02:23:50 AM »

Without invoking God? I think its impossible. Life has no meaning without God hence i think the atheist (in their world view) is justified in abortion and even infanticide (which some people to their shame are trying to justify). It was Christianity and its influence which ultimately stopped Infanticide from being a good option, in the roman empire after all because of God's law being recognised in this regard.
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« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2012, 11:31:46 AM »

Without invoking God? I think its impossible. Life has no meaning without God hence i think the atheist (in their world view) is justified in abortion and even infanticide (which some people to their shame are trying to justify). It was Christianity and its influence which ultimately stopped Infanticide from being a good option, in the roman empire after all because of God's law being recognised in this regard.

Very good point about the common acceptance of infanticide in pre-Christian Rome. Infanticide is actually very common among the world's cultures.

So now infanticide is at least respectable enough to be openly advocated in a professional medical ethics journal. Remains to be seen whether it moves from there to public policy.
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Protoevangel
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« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2012, 11:53:29 AM »

Without invoking God? I think its impossible. Life has no meaning without God hence i think the atheist (in their world view) is justified in abortion and even infanticide (which some people to their shame are trying to justify). It was Christianity and its influence which ultimately stopped Infanticide from being a good option, in the roman empire after all because of God's law being recognised in this regard.
Don't forget that (most) secularists are just as nominal as many so-called Christians. Most of the time, they still hold on to some semblance of the (bastardized/western) Christian worldview... Although the the downward path they are on does continue to get slipperier and steeper... "The time is coming when people will be insane, and when they see someone who is not insane, they will attack that person saying — 'You are insane because you are not like us." What Anthony the Great prophesied over 1600 years ago, we see happening before our eyes.
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"The unholy doubt, not because they are ostensibly more rational, but because they are unholy.
The holier man is always the more rational, for in the clear mirror of his heart he sees the truth.
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« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2012, 06:02:05 PM »

"The time is coming when people will be insane, and when they see someone who is not insane, they will attack that person saying — 'You are insane because you are not like us." What Anthony the Great prophesied over 1600 years ago, we see happening before our eyes.

Indeed it is. However, I am not sure if he means in terms of the secularists. I think it is a reference to racism and prejudiceness which is really a problem among minorities in America today, and a problem I highly sympathize with being Mexican.
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« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2012, 06:11:28 PM »

"The time is coming when people will be insane, and when they see someone who is not insane, they will attack that person saying — 'You are insane because you are not like us." What Anthony the Great prophesied over 1600 years ago, we see happening before our eyes.

Indeed it is. However, I am not sure if he means in terms of the secularists. I think it is a reference to racism and prejudiceness which is really a problem among minorities in America today, and a problem I highly sympathize with being Mexican.

By prejudiceness do you mean prejudice, and by sympathize do you mean associate?
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« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2012, 06:38:24 PM »

"The time is coming when people will be insane, and when they see someone who is not insane, they will attack that person saying — 'You are insane because you are not like us." What Anthony the Great prophesied over 1600 years ago, we see happening before our eyes.

Indeed it is. However, I am not sure if he means in terms of the secularists. I think it is a reference to racism and prejudiceness which is really a problem among minorities in America today, and a problem I highly sympathize with being Mexican.

By prejudiceness do you mean prejudice, and by sympathize do you mean associate?

Yeah I guess. I'm half Mexican and half German but I was brought up more around the Mexican side of my family and although I have not faced profiling as much and most people think I'm just White, I have seen the terrors of how some of my people are treated and discriminated against. The same goes for Black people too, and even White people in some areas. Racism affects everybody nowadays it seems.
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« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2012, 06:47:51 PM »

"The time is coming when people will be insane, and when they see someone who is not insane, they will attack that person saying — 'You are insane because you are not like us." What Anthony the Great prophesied over 1600 years ago, we see happening before our eyes.

Indeed it is. However, I am not sure if he means in terms of the secularists. I think it is a reference to racism and prejudiceness which is really a problem among minorities in America today, and a problem I highly sympathize with being Mexican.

By prejudiceness do you mean prejudice, and by sympathize do you mean associate?

Yeah I guess. I'm half Mexican and half German but I was brought up more around the Mexican side of my family and although I have not faced profiling as much and most people think I'm just White, I have seen the terrors of how some of my people are treated and discriminated against. The same goes for Black people too, and even White people in some areas. Racism affects everybody nowadays it seems.

Racism is just part of tribalism on a larger scale.  I'm pretty sure that there were plenty of people in St. Anthony's day who killed others because they were from the wrong group.
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« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2012, 07:37:51 PM »

"The time is coming when people will be insane, and when they see someone who is not insane, they will attack that person saying — 'You are insane because you are not like us." What Anthony the Great prophesied over 1600 years ago, we see happening before our eyes.

Indeed it is. However, I am not sure if he means in terms of the secularists. I think it is a reference to racism and prejudiceness which is really a problem among minorities in America today, and a problem I highly sympathize with being Mexican.

By prejudiceness do you mean prejudice, and by sympathize do you mean associate?

Yeah I guess. I'm half Mexican and half German but I was brought up more around the Mexican side of my family and although I have not faced profiling as much and most people think I'm just White, I have seen the terrors of how some of my people are treated and discriminated against. The same goes for Black people too, and even White people in some areas. Racism affects everybody nowadays it seems.
No, racism is only when the "race" that has the upper hand socially and economically discriminates against other races. When those other races kick back, even if based on "racial" grounds that's not racism.
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« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2012, 07:55:45 PM »

"The time is coming when people will be insane, and when they see someone who is not insane, they will attack that person saying — 'You are insane because you are not like us." What Anthony the Great prophesied over 1600 years ago, we see happening before our eyes.

Indeed it is. However, I am not sure if he means in terms of the secularists. I think it is a reference to racism and prejudiceness which is really a problem among minorities in America today, and a problem I highly sympathize with being Mexican.

By prejudiceness do you mean prejudice, and by sympathize do you mean associate?

Yeah I guess. I'm half Mexican and half German but I was brought up more around the Mexican side of my family and although I have not faced profiling as much and most people think I'm just White, I have seen the terrors of how some of my people are treated and discriminated against. The same goes for Black people too, and even White people in some areas. Racism affects everybody nowadays it seems.
No, racism is only when the "race" that has the upper hand socially and economically discriminates against other races. When those other races kick back, even if based on "racial" grounds that's not racism.

That is an interesting way to dominate the discussion and public policy. How long do you think that this special definition of racism would apply? Also, when the kick back results in systematic discrimination against the race that had discriminated in the past, when will the definition start to apply to the race that is being discriminated against now? What about the hypocrisy of those who indulge in racially based discrimination to "kick back"? What then happens to the concept of equal justice for all? It seems to me that justice becomes a subjective concept that is defined by whoever is in control. In other words, dog-eat-dog, lawless world of failed nations. But then may be that's what you want this country to turn into.
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« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2012, 08:21:36 PM »

No, racism is only when the "race" that has the upper hand socially and economically discriminates against other races. When those other races kick back, even if based on "racial" grounds that's not racism.

Wrong.  Only according to crude and selectively applied neo-Marxist constructs.  I presume you get to make the call on who has the upper hand and where the boundaries are in any given area? It's all so easy when you see the world through the lens of have and have nots, but in many places with multiple races, racism occurs, and there is no identifiable "upper hand."

I would direct you to a host of dictionaries to clarify the definition, but they are probably too bourgeois for you (or written by the man).   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2012, 08:27:11 PM »

No, racism is only when the "race" that has the upper hand socially and economically discriminates against other races. When those other races kick back, even if based on "racial" grounds that's not racism.

Wrong.  Only according to crude and selectively applied neo-Marxist constructs.  I presume you get to make the call on who has the upper hand and where the boundaries are in any given area? It's all so easy when you see the world through the lens of have and have nots, but in many places with multiple races, racism occurs, and there is no identifiable "upper hand."

I would direct you to a host of dictionaries to clarify the definition, but they are probably too bourgeois for you (or written by the man).   Roll Eyes

Indeed.

Does it count when affluent Chinese on the lower north shore of Sydney tell their daughters not to dare to bring home an Aboriginal boyfriend?

Yes, the Chinese have the "upper hand" in comparison to the Aboriginal, but aren't the really privileged the Anglo/Saxon/Celts on the upper north shore?
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« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2012, 08:46:57 PM »

Why do we not consult the Law, and see that a rapist shall marry the victim.

( http://loltheists.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/rape-the-biblical-way-1023x988.jpg )

In any case, people who love abortion hate children.
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« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2012, 11:00:40 PM »

"The time is coming when people will be insane, and when they see someone who is not insane, they will attack that person saying — 'You are insane because you are not like us." What Anthony the Great prophesied over 1600 years ago, we see happening before our eyes.

Indeed it is. However, I am not sure if he means in terms of the secularists. I think it is a reference to racism and prejudiceness which is really a problem among minorities in America today, and a problem I highly sympathize with being Mexican.

By prejudiceness do you mean prejudice, and by sympathize do you mean associate?

Yeah I guess. I'm half Mexican and half German but I was brought up more around the Mexican side of my family and although I have not faced profiling as much and most people think I'm just White, I have seen the terrors of how some of my people are treated and discriminated against. The same goes for Black people too, and even White people in some areas. Racism affects everybody nowadays it seems.
No, racism is only when the "race" that has the upper hand socially and economically discriminates against other races. When those other races kick back, even if based on "racial" grounds that's not racism.

lol, no one can take you seriously. 
You describe yourself under "faith" as: 
"apathetic ecumenist indifferent traditionalist communist philetist accidental Orthodox"
philetist=racist. 

Is your hobby in your spare time slapping rabbis in the face with a pork chop?

Anyway, since you describe yourself as a racist/philetist, and the synod of 1872 defines you as a heretic, I now wonder why you are here other than to poison the waters with your split-tongued heresy. 
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« Reply #61 on: March 08, 2012, 11:04:13 PM »

"The time is coming when people will be insane, and when they see someone who is not insane, they will attack that person saying — 'You are insane because you are not like us." What Anthony the Great prophesied over 1600 years ago, we see happening before our eyes.

Indeed it is. However, I am not sure if he means in terms of the secularists. I think it is a reference to racism and prejudiceness which is really a problem among minorities in America today, and a problem I highly sympathize with being Mexican.

By prejudiceness do you mean prejudice, and by sympathize do you mean associate?

Yeah I guess. I'm half Mexican and half German but I was brought up more around the Mexican side of my family and although I have not faced profiling as much and most people think I'm just White, I have seen the terrors of how some of my people are treated and discriminated against. The same goes for Black people too, and even White people in some areas. Racism affects everybody nowadays it seems.
No, racism is only when the "race" that has the upper hand socially and economically discriminates against other races. When those other races kick back, even if based on "racial" grounds that's not racism.

lol, no one can take you seriously.  
You describe yourself under "faith" as:  
"apathetic ecumenist indifferent traditionalist communist philetist accidental Orthodox"
philetist=racist.  

Is your hobby in your spare time slapping rabbis in the face with a pork chop?

Anyway, since you describe yourself as a racist/philetist, and the synod of 1872 defines you as a heretic, I now wonder why you are here other than to poison the waters with your split-tongued heresy.  

What, no inner peace with all those prostrations or what's the problem?
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« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2012, 12:16:39 AM »

"The time is coming when people will be insane, and when they see someone who is not insane, they will attack that person saying — 'You are insane because you are not like us." What Anthony the Great prophesied over 1600 years ago, we see happening before our eyes.

Indeed it is. However, I am not sure if he means in terms of the secularists. I think it is a reference to racism and prejudiceness which is really a problem among minorities in America today, and a problem I highly sympathize with being Mexican.

By prejudiceness do you mean prejudice, and by sympathize do you mean associate?

Yeah I guess. I'm half Mexican and half German but I was brought up more around the Mexican side of my family and although I have not faced profiling as much and most people think I'm just White, I have seen the terrors of how some of my people are treated and discriminated against. The same goes for Black people too, and even White people in some areas. Racism affects everybody nowadays it seems.
No, racism is only when the "race" that has the upper hand socially and economically discriminates against other races. When those other races kick back, even if based on "racial" grounds that's not racism.

lol, no one can take you seriously.  
You describe yourself under "faith" as:  
"apathetic ecumenist indifferent traditionalist communist philetist accidental Orthodox"
philetist=racist.  

Is your hobby in your spare time slapping rabbis in the face with a pork chop?

Anyway, since you describe yourself as a racist/philetist, and the synod of 1872 defines you as a heretic, I now wonder why you are here other than to poison the waters with your split-tongued heresy.  

What, no inner peace with all those prostrations or what's the problem?

I think your priest with peace should drop-kick your hide to the outer porch so that you could do some prostrations, but since you never show up to church, I suppose he doesn't have the opportunity. 

Anyhow, with inner peace, I don't have a problem with everything, and would only take a spiritual flame-thrower to the following:

1. apathy
2. indifference
3. "communism" (which is not communism at all, but socialist totalitarianism)
4. phyletism
5. accident (if not deliberate, either become deliberate or stop polluting the Church)

As for the traditional and "Orthodox" part, I don't think so.  But you know that already.

"apathetic ecumenist indifferent traditionalist communist philetist accidental Orthodox"

You are a self-described hateful racist
You are a self-described accident (no further comment)
You are a self-described unrepentent heretic

You should inform your priest about all of these problems, with peace and prostrations   Smiley

 
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« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2012, 12:37:01 AM »

Numbers 5
My Bible (and what I remember of the Jews') only mentions conception in the context that if she is innocent she will conceive.  If she is guilty, it only says her privy parts will swell, evidently thereby rendered unfit for entry and I guess painful.  Nothing about abortion.
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« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2012, 12:49:43 AM »

Numbers 5
My Bible (and what I remember of the Jews') only mentions conception in the context that if she is innocent she will conceive.  If she is guilty, it only says her privy parts will swell, evidently thereby rendered unfit for entry and I guess painful.  Nothing about abortion.

It does talk about the woman miscarrying if she had sinned.
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« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2012, 01:03:26 AM »

"The time is coming when people will be insane, and when they see someone who is not insane, they will attack that person saying — 'You are insane because you are not like us." What Anthony the Great prophesied over 1600 years ago, we see happening before our eyes.

Indeed it is. However, I am not sure if he means in terms of the secularists. I think it is a reference to racism and prejudiceness which is really a problem among minorities in America today, and a problem I highly sympathize with being Mexican.

By prejudiceness do you mean prejudice, and by sympathize do you mean associate?

Yeah I guess. I'm half Mexican and half German but I was brought up more around the Mexican side of my family and although I have not faced profiling as much and most people think I'm just White, I have seen the terrors of how some of my people are treated and discriminated against. The same goes for Black people too, and even White people in some areas. Racism affects everybody nowadays it seems.
No, racism is only when the "race" that has the upper hand socially and economically discriminates against other races. When those other races kick back, even if based on "racial" grounds that's not racism.

lol, no one can take you seriously.  
You describe yourself under "faith" as:  
"apathetic ecumenist indifferent traditionalist communist philetist accidental Orthodox"
philetist=racist.  

Is your hobby in your spare time slapping rabbis in the face with a pork chop?

Anyway, since you describe yourself as a racist/philetist, and the synod of 1872 defines you as a heretic, I now wonder why you are here other than to poison the waters with your split-tongued heresy.  

What, no inner peace with all those prostrations or what's the problem?

I think your priest with peace should drop-kick your hide to the outer porch so that you could do some prostrations, but since you never show up to church, I suppose he doesn't have the opportunity. 

Anyhow, with inner peace, I don't have a problem with everything, and would only take a spiritual flame-thrower to the following:

1. apathy
2. indifference
3. "communism" (which is not communism at all, but socialist totalitarianism)
4. phyletism
5. accident (if not deliberate, either become deliberate or stop polluting the Church)

As for the traditional and "Orthodox" part, I don't think so.  But you know that already.

"apathetic ecumenist indifferent traditionalist communist philetist accidental Orthodox"

You are a self-described hateful racist
You are a self-described accident (no further comment)
You are a self-described unrepentent heretic

You should inform your priest about all of these problems, with peace and prostrations   Smiley

 
Come on, don't overestimate your influence over me. You didn't make me Orthodox, you don't tell me to go either.
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« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2012, 04:35:57 AM »

Numbers 5
My Bible (and what I remember of the Jews') only mentions conception in the context that if she is innocent she will conceive.  If she is guilty, it only says her privy parts will swell, evidently thereby rendered unfit for entry and I guess painful.  Nothing about abortion.

It does talk about the woman miscarrying if she had sinned.
I don't see anything about any miscarriage.
Quote
11 καὶ ἐλάλησεν κύριος πρὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων 12 λάλησον τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ καὶ ἐρεῖς πρὸς αὐτούς ἀνδρὸς ἀνδρὸς ἐὰν παραβῇ ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ καὶ παρίδῃ αὐτὸν ὑπεριδοῦσα 13 καὶ κοιμηθῇ τις μετ' αὐτῆς κοίτην σπέρματος καὶ λάθῃ ἐξ ὀφθαλμῶν τοῦ ἀνδρὸς αὐτῆς καὶ κρύψῃ αὐτὴ δὲ ᾖ μεμιαμμένη καὶ μάρτυς μὴ ἦν μετ' αὐτῆς καὶ αὐτὴ μὴ ᾖ συνειλημμένη 14 καὶ ἐπέλθῃ αὐτῷ πνεῦμα ζηλώσεως καὶ ζηλώσῃ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ αὐτὴ δὲ μεμίανται ἢ ἐπέλθῃ αὐτῷ πνεῦμα ζηλώσεως καὶ ζηλώσῃ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ αὐτὴ δὲ μὴ ᾖ μεμιαμμένη 15 καὶ ἄξει ὁ ἄνθρωπος τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ πρὸς τὸν ἱερέα καὶ προσοίσει τὸ δῶρον περὶ αὐτῆς τὸ δέκατον τοῦ οιφι ἄλευρον κρίθινον οὐκ ἐπιχεεῖ ἐπ' αὐτὸ ἔλαιον οὐδὲ ἐπιθήσει ἐπ' αὐτὸ λίβανον ἔστιν γὰρ θυσία ζηλοτυπίας θυσία μνημοσύνου ἀναμιμνήσκουσα ἁμαρτίαν 16 καὶ προσάξει αὐτὴν ὁ ἱερεὺς καὶ στήσει αὐτὴν ἔναντι κυρίου 17 καὶ λήμψεται ὁ ἱερεὺς ὕδωρ καθαρὸν ζῶν ἐν ἀγγείῳ ὀστρακίνῳ καὶ τῆς γῆς τῆς οὔσης ἐπὶ τοῦ ἐδάφους τῆς σκηνῆς τοῦ μαρτυρίου καὶ λαβὼν ὁ ἱερεὺς ἐμβαλεῖ εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ 18 καὶ στήσει ὁ ἱερεὺς τὴν γυναῖκα ἔναντι κυρίου καὶ ἀποκαλύψει τὴν κεφαλὴν τῆς γυναικὸς καὶ δώσει ἐπὶ τὰς χεῖρας αὐτῆς τὴν θυσίαν τοῦ μνημοσύνου τὴν θυσίαν τῆς ζηλοτυπίας ἐν δὲ τῇ χειρὶ τοῦ ἱερέως ἔσται τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τοῦ ἐπικαταρωμένου τούτου 19 καὶ ὁρκιεῖ αὐτὴν ὁ ἱερεὺς καὶ ἐρεῖ τῇ γυναικί εἰ μὴ κεκοίμηταί τις μετὰ σοῦ εἰ μὴ παραβέβηκας μιανθῆναι ὑπὸ τὸν ἄνδρα τὸν σεαυτῆς ἀθῴα ἴσθι ἀπὸ τοῦ ὕδατος τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τοῦ ἐπικαταρωμένου τούτου 20 εἰ δὲ σὺ παραβέβηκας ὑπ' ἀνδρὸς οὖσα ἢ μεμίανσαι καὶ ἔδωκέν τις τὴν κοίτην αὐτοῦ ἐν σοὶ πλὴν τοῦ ἀνδρός σου 21 καὶ ὁρκιεῖ ὁ ἱερεὺς τὴν γυναῖκα ἐν τοῖς ὅρκοις τῆς ἀρᾶς ταύτης καὶ ἐρεῖ ὁ ἱερεὺς τῇ γυναικί δῴη κύριός σε ἐν ἀρᾷ καὶ ἐνόρκιον ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ λαοῦ σου ἐν τῷ δοῦναι κύριον τὸν μηρόν σου διαπεπτωκότα καὶ τὴν κοιλίαν σου πεπρησμένην 22 καὶ εἰσελεύσεται τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ἐπικαταρώμενον τοῦτο εἰς τὴν κοιλίαν σου πρῆσαι γαστέρα καὶ διαπεσεῖν μηρόν σου καὶ ἐρεῖ ἡ γυνή γένοιτο γένοιτο 23 καὶ γράψει ὁ ἱερεὺς τὰς ἀρὰς ταύτας εἰς βιβλίον καὶ ἐξαλείψει εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τοῦ ἐπικαταρωμένου 24 καὶ ποτιεῖ τὴν γυναῖκα τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τοῦ ἐπικαταρωμένου καὶ εἰσελεύσεται εἰς αὐτὴν τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ἐπικαταρώμενον τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ 25 καὶ λήμψεται ὁ ἱερεὺς ἐκ χειρὸς τῆς γυναικὸς τὴν θυσίαν τῆς ζηλοτυπίας καὶ ἐπιθήσει τὴν θυσίαν ἔναντι κυρίου καὶ προσοίσει αὐτὴν πρὸς τὸ θυσιαστήριον 26 καὶ δράξεται ὁ ἱερεὺς ἀπὸ τῆς θυσίας τὸ μνημόσυνον αὐτῆς καὶ ἀνοίσει αὐτὸ ἐπὶ τὸ θυσιαστήριον καὶ μετὰ ταῦτα ποτιεῖ τὴν γυναῖκα τὸ ὕδωρ 27 καὶ ἔσται ἐὰν ᾖ μεμιαμμένη καὶ λήθῃ λάθῃ τὸν ἄνδρα αὐτῆς καὶ εἰσελεύσεται εἰς αὐτὴν τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τὸ ἐπικαταρώμενον καὶ πρησθήσεται τὴν κοιλίαν καὶ διαπεσεῖται ὁ μηρὸς αὐτῆς καὶ ἔσται ἡ γυνὴ εἰς ἀρὰν ἐν τῷ λαῷ αὐτῆς 28 ἐὰν δὲ μὴ μιανθῇ ἡ γυνὴ καὶ καθαρὰ ᾖ καὶ ἀθῴα ἔσται καὶ ἐκσπερματιεῖ σπέρμα 29 οὗτος ὁ νόμος τῆς ζηλοτυπίας ᾧ ἐὰν παραβῇ ἡ γυνὴ ὑπ' ἀνδρὸς οὖσα καὶ μιανθῇ 30 ἢ ἄνθρωπος ᾧ ἐὰν ἐπέλθῃ ἐπ' αὐτὸν πνεῦμα ζηλώσεως καὶ ζηλώσῃ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ καὶ στήσει τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ ἔναντι κυρίου καὶ ποιήσει αὐτῇ ὁ ἱερεὺς πάντα τὸν νόμον τοῦτον 31 καὶ ἀθῷος ἔσται ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἀπὸ ἁμαρτίας καὶ ἡ γυνὴ ἐκείνη λήμψεται τὴν ἁμαρτίαν αὐτῆς
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« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2012, 08:20:38 PM »

Numbers 5
My Bible (and what I remember of the Jews') only mentions conception in the context that if she is innocent she will conceive.  If she is guilty, it only says her privy parts will swell, evidently thereby rendered unfit for entry and I guess painful.  Nothing about abortion.

It does talk about the woman miscarrying if she had sinned.
Where?

I'm beginning to think it has as much to do with abortion as Genesis 38 has to do with contraception, sodomy or masturbation.  I.e. nothing.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2012, 07:57:19 AM »

I don't see how one can make an appeal to the Christian religion to argue against abortion. To be against abortion just isn't unique to Christianity beyond, "All humans have the right to life."

The abortion debate breaks down as such:

1) Do humans have an intrinsic right to life (that is, it the intentional killing of an innocent human being wrong in all cases)?

If no, then we've lost all grounds for moral outrage on any point. We must be morally and politically ambiguous. No one alive can answer "no" to this with a straight face. What they can argue, however, is that we must earn our right to life; of course, we are then left pointing out the absurdity of such a claim. The standard will be arbitrary and can be moved at will, depending on the majority's view of what it means to "earn" a right. No one wants to live in such a world, otherwise we would all happily embrace eugenics.

2) Granted that humans have an intrinsic right to life, is the embryo/fetus human?

After looking at the science, the answer to this is absolutely yes. Science shows that from the moment of conception, we have a human being.

3) In the case of rape, will my action nullify what was done to me?

If one gets an abortion, will that nullify the rape? Will an abortion take away the experience of the rape? Likewise, can we kill an innocent human being in order to alleviate our psychological torment?

Thus, I would argue that even in a secular society, abortion should be banned because it takes the life of an innocent human being. Our right to life is the most basic of rights; if I don't have a right to my own life, then I don't have rights to anything.
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« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2012, 10:29:50 AM »

Numbers 5
My Bible (and what I remember of the Jews') only mentions conception in the context that if she is innocent she will conceive.  If she is guilty, it only says her privy parts will swell, evidently thereby rendered unfit for entry and I guess painful.  Nothing about abortion.

It does talk about the woman miscarrying if she had sinned.
I don't see anything about any miscarriage.
Quote
11 καὶ ἐλάλησεν κύριος πρὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων 12 λάλησον τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ καὶ ἐρεῖς πρὸς αὐτούς ἀνδρὸς ἀνδρὸς ἐὰν παραβῇ ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ καὶ παρίδῃ αὐτὸν ὑπεριδοῦσα 13 καὶ κοιμηθῇ τις μετ' αὐτῆς κοίτην σπέρματος καὶ λάθῃ ἐξ ὀφθαλμῶν τοῦ ἀνδρὸς αὐτῆς καὶ κρύψῃ αὐτὴ δὲ ᾖ μεμιαμμένη καὶ μάρτυς μὴ ἦν μετ' αὐτῆς καὶ αὐτὴ μὴ ᾖ συνειλημμένη 14 καὶ ἐπέλθῃ αὐτῷ πνεῦμα ζηλώσεως καὶ ζηλώσῃ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ αὐτὴ δὲ μεμίανται ἢ ἐπέλθῃ αὐτῷ πνεῦμα ζηλώσεως καὶ ζηλώσῃ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ αὐτὴ δὲ μὴ ᾖ μεμιαμμένη 15 καὶ ἄξει ὁ ἄνθρωπος τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ πρὸς τὸν ἱερέα καὶ προσοίσει τὸ δῶρον περὶ αὐτῆς τὸ δέκατον τοῦ οιφι ἄλευρον κρίθινον οὐκ ἐπιχεεῖ ἐπ' αὐτὸ ἔλαιον οὐδὲ ἐπιθήσει ἐπ' αὐτὸ λίβανον ἔστιν γὰρ θυσία ζηλοτυπίας θυσία μνημοσύνου ἀναμιμνήσκουσα ἁμαρτίαν 16 καὶ προσάξει αὐτὴν ὁ ἱερεὺς καὶ στήσει αὐτὴν ἔναντι κυρίου 17 καὶ λήμψεται ὁ ἱερεὺς ὕδωρ καθαρὸν ζῶν ἐν ἀγγείῳ ὀστρακίνῳ καὶ τῆς γῆς τῆς οὔσης ἐπὶ τοῦ ἐδάφους τῆς σκηνῆς τοῦ μαρτυρίου καὶ λαβὼν ὁ ἱερεὺς ἐμβαλεῖ εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ 18 καὶ στήσει ὁ ἱερεὺς τὴν γυναῖκα ἔναντι κυρίου καὶ ἀποκαλύψει τὴν κεφαλὴν τῆς γυναικὸς καὶ δώσει ἐπὶ τὰς χεῖρας αὐτῆς τὴν θυσίαν τοῦ μνημοσύνου τὴν θυσίαν τῆς ζηλοτυπίας ἐν δὲ τῇ χειρὶ τοῦ ἱερέως ἔσται τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τοῦ ἐπικαταρωμένου τούτου 19 καὶ ὁρκιεῖ αὐτὴν ὁ ἱερεὺς καὶ ἐρεῖ τῇ γυναικί εἰ μὴ κεκοίμηταί τις μετὰ σοῦ εἰ μὴ παραβέβηκας μιανθῆναι ὑπὸ τὸν ἄνδρα τὸν σεαυτῆς ἀθῴα ἴσθι ἀπὸ τοῦ ὕδατος τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τοῦ ἐπικαταρωμένου τούτου 20 εἰ δὲ σὺ παραβέβηκας ὑπ' ἀνδρὸς οὖσα ἢ μεμίανσαι καὶ ἔδωκέν τις τὴν κοίτην αὐτοῦ ἐν σοὶ πλὴν τοῦ ἀνδρός σου 21 καὶ ὁρκιεῖ ὁ ἱερεὺς τὴν γυναῖκα ἐν τοῖς ὅρκοις τῆς ἀρᾶς ταύτης καὶ ἐρεῖ ὁ ἱερεὺς τῇ γυναικί δῴη κύριός σε ἐν ἀρᾷ καὶ ἐνόρκιον ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ λαοῦ σου ἐν τῷ δοῦναι κύριον τὸν μηρόν σου διαπεπτωκότα καὶ τὴν κοιλίαν σου πεπρησμένην 22 καὶ εἰσελεύσεται τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ἐπικαταρώμενον τοῦτο εἰς τὴν κοιλίαν σου πρῆσαι γαστέρα καὶ διαπεσεῖν μηρόν σου καὶ ἐρεῖ ἡ γυνή γένοιτο γένοιτο 23 καὶ γράψει ὁ ἱερεὺς τὰς ἀρὰς ταύτας εἰς βιβλίον καὶ ἐξαλείψει εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τοῦ ἐπικαταρωμένου 24 καὶ ποτιεῖ τὴν γυναῖκα τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τοῦ ἐπικαταρωμένου καὶ εἰσελεύσεται εἰς αὐτὴν τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ἐπικαταρώμενον τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ 25 καὶ λήμψεται ὁ ἱερεὺς ἐκ χειρὸς τῆς γυναικὸς τὴν θυσίαν τῆς ζηλοτυπίας καὶ ἐπιθήσει τὴν θυσίαν ἔναντι κυρίου καὶ προσοίσει αὐτὴν πρὸς τὸ θυσιαστήριον 26 καὶ δράξεται ὁ ἱερεὺς ἀπὸ τῆς θυσίας τὸ μνημόσυνον αὐτῆς καὶ ἀνοίσει αὐτὸ ἐπὶ τὸ θυσιαστήριον καὶ μετὰ ταῦτα ποτιεῖ τὴν γυναῖκα τὸ ὕδωρ 27 καὶ ἔσται ἐὰν ᾖ μεμιαμμένη καὶ λήθῃ λάθῃ τὸν ἄνδρα αὐτῆς καὶ εἰσελεύσεται εἰς αὐτὴν τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τὸ ἐπικαταρώμενον καὶ πρησθήσεται τὴν κοιλίαν καὶ διαπεσεῖται ὁ μηρὸς αὐτῆς καὶ ἔσται ἡ γυνὴ εἰς ἀρὰν ἐν τῷ λαῷ αὐτῆς 28 ἐὰν δὲ μὴ μιανθῇ ἡ γυνὴ καὶ καθαρὰ ᾖ καὶ ἀθῴα ἔσται καὶ ἐκσπερματιεῖ σπέρμα 29 οὗτος ὁ νόμος τῆς ζηλοτυπίας ᾧ ἐὰν παραβῇ ἡ γυνὴ ὑπ' ἀνδρὸς οὖσα καὶ μιανθῇ 30 ἢ ἄνθρωπος ᾧ ἐὰν ἐπέλθῃ ἐπ' αὐτὸν πνεῦμα ζηλώσεως καὶ ζηλώσῃ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ καὶ στήσει τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ ἔναντι κυρίου καὶ ποιήσει αὐτῇ ὁ ἱερεὺς πάντα τὸν νόμον τοῦτον 31 καὶ ἀθῷος ἔσται ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἀπὸ ἁμαρτίας καὶ ἡ γυνὴ ἐκείνη λήμψεται τὴν ἁμαρτίαν αὐτῆς
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« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2012, 10:42:11 AM »

Quote
1) Do humans have an intrinsic right to life (that is, it the intentional killing of an innocent human being wrong in all cases)?
The pro abortion folks side-step this by de-humanizing an unborn child, equating it to the same status as a woman's finger, or leg. Which is silly, but there it is....

Quote
2) Granted that humans have an intrinsic right to life, is the embryo/fetus human?
Which pro-abortion folks must answer no, or they'd be murderers.

Quote
3) In the case of rape, will my action nullify what was done to me?
Of course the means of genesis of the child means nothing. However this is used as an emotional argument. If one's beginnings matter, how far will it go? Poverty? Bad parents? What will be the qualifier to "it was not my choice"? Once you start down the bunny trail, it leads to many things.

Quote
If one gets an abortion, will that nullify the rape?
Excellent question
Quote
Thus, I would argue that even in a secular society, abortion should be banned because it takes the life of an innocent human being
Thats the thing. Abortion is inherently a self-centered act usually. So folks will try to justify it any way they can.

PP
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« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2012, 01:02:59 PM »

Numbers 5
My Bible (and what I remember of the Jews') only mentions conception in the context that if she is innocent she will conceive.  If she is guilty, it only says her privy parts will swell, evidently thereby rendered unfit for entry and I guess painful.  Nothing about abortion.

It does talk about the woman miscarrying if she had sinned.
I don't see anything about any miscarriage.
Quote
11 καὶ ἐλάλησεν κύριος πρὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων 12 λάλησον τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ καὶ ἐρεῖς πρὸς αὐτούς ἀνδρὸς ἀνδρὸς ἐὰν παραβῇ ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ καὶ παρίδῃ αὐτὸν ὑπεριδοῦσα 13 καὶ κοιμηθῇ τις μετ' αὐτῆς κοίτην σπέρματος καὶ λάθῃ ἐξ ὀφθαλμῶν τοῦ ἀνδρὸς αὐτῆς καὶ κρύψῃ αὐτὴ δὲ ᾖ μεμιαμμένη καὶ μάρτυς μὴ ἦν μετ' αὐτῆς καὶ αὐτὴ μὴ ᾖ συνειλημμένη 14 καὶ ἐπέλθῃ αὐτῷ πνεῦμα ζηλώσεως καὶ ζηλώσῃ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ αὐτὴ δὲ μεμίανται ἢ ἐπέλθῃ αὐτῷ πνεῦμα ζηλώσεως καὶ ζηλώσῃ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ αὐτὴ δὲ μὴ ᾖ μεμιαμμένη 15 καὶ ἄξει ὁ ἄνθρωπος τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ πρὸς τὸν ἱερέα καὶ προσοίσει τὸ δῶρον περὶ αὐτῆς τὸ δέκατον τοῦ οιφι ἄλευρον κρίθινον οὐκ ἐπιχεεῖ ἐπ' αὐτὸ ἔλαιον οὐδὲ ἐπιθήσει ἐπ' αὐτὸ λίβανον ἔστιν γὰρ θυσία ζηλοτυπίας θυσία μνημοσύνου ἀναμιμνήσκουσα ἁμαρτίαν 16 καὶ προσάξει αὐτὴν ὁ ἱερεὺς καὶ στήσει αὐτὴν ἔναντι κυρίου 17 καὶ λήμψεται ὁ ἱερεὺς ὕδωρ καθαρὸν ζῶν ἐν ἀγγείῳ ὀστρακίνῳ καὶ τῆς γῆς τῆς οὔσης ἐπὶ τοῦ ἐδάφους τῆς σκηνῆς τοῦ μαρτυρίου καὶ λαβὼν ὁ ἱερεὺς ἐμβαλεῖ εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ 18 καὶ στήσει ὁ ἱερεὺς τὴν γυναῖκα ἔναντι κυρίου καὶ ἀποκαλύψει τὴν κεφαλὴν τῆς γυναικὸς καὶ δώσει ἐπὶ τὰς χεῖρας αὐτῆς τὴν θυσίαν τοῦ μνημοσύνου τὴν θυσίαν τῆς ζηλοτυπίας ἐν δὲ τῇ χειρὶ τοῦ ἱερέως ἔσται τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τοῦ ἐπικαταρωμένου τούτου 19 καὶ ὁρκιεῖ αὐτὴν ὁ ἱερεὺς καὶ ἐρεῖ τῇ γυναικί εἰ μὴ κεκοίμηταί τις μετὰ σοῦ εἰ μὴ παραβέβηκας μιανθῆναι ὑπὸ τὸν ἄνδρα τὸν σεαυτῆς ἀθῴα ἴσθι ἀπὸ τοῦ ὕδατος τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τοῦ ἐπικαταρωμένου τούτου 20 εἰ δὲ σὺ παραβέβηκας ὑπ' ἀνδρὸς οὖσα ἢ μεμίανσαι καὶ ἔδωκέν τις τὴν κοίτην αὐτοῦ ἐν σοὶ πλὴν τοῦ ἀνδρός σου 21 καὶ ὁρκιεῖ ὁ ἱερεὺς τὴν γυναῖκα ἐν τοῖς ὅρκοις τῆς ἀρᾶς ταύτης καὶ ἐρεῖ ὁ ἱερεὺς τῇ γυναικί δῴη κύριός σε ἐν ἀρᾷ καὶ ἐνόρκιον ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ λαοῦ σου ἐν τῷ δοῦναι κύριον τὸν μηρόν σου διαπεπτωκότα καὶ τὴν κοιλίαν σου πεπρησμένην 22 καὶ εἰσελεύσεται τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ἐπικαταρώμενον τοῦτο εἰς τὴν κοιλίαν σου πρῆσαι γαστέρα καὶ διαπεσεῖν μηρόν σου καὶ ἐρεῖ ἡ γυνή γένοιτο γένοιτο 23 καὶ γράψει ὁ ἱερεὺς τὰς ἀρὰς ταύτας εἰς βιβλίον καὶ ἐξαλείψει εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τοῦ ἐπικαταρωμένου 24 καὶ ποτιεῖ τὴν γυναῖκα τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τοῦ ἐπικαταρωμένου καὶ εἰσελεύσεται εἰς αὐτὴν τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ἐπικαταρώμενον τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ 25 καὶ λήμψεται ὁ ἱερεὺς ἐκ χειρὸς τῆς γυναικὸς τὴν θυσίαν τῆς ζηλοτυπίας καὶ ἐπιθήσει τὴν θυσίαν ἔναντι κυρίου καὶ προσοίσει αὐτὴν πρὸς τὸ θυσιαστήριον 26 καὶ δράξεται ὁ ἱερεὺς ἀπὸ τῆς θυσίας τὸ μνημόσυνον αὐτῆς καὶ ἀνοίσει αὐτὸ ἐπὶ τὸ θυσιαστήριον καὶ μετὰ ταῦτα ποτιεῖ τὴν γυναῖκα τὸ ὕδωρ 27 καὶ ἔσται ἐὰν ᾖ μεμιαμμένη καὶ λήθῃ λάθῃ τὸν ἄνδρα αὐτῆς καὶ εἰσελεύσεται εἰς αὐτὴν τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τὸ ἐπικαταρώμενον καὶ πρησθήσεται τὴν κοιλίαν καὶ διαπεσεῖται ὁ μηρὸς αὐτῆς καὶ ἔσται ἡ γυνὴ εἰς ἀρὰν ἐν τῷ λαῷ αὐτῆς 28 ἐὰν δὲ μὴ μιανθῇ ἡ γυνὴ καὶ καθαρὰ ᾖ καὶ ἀθῴα ἔσται καὶ ἐκσπερματιεῖ σπέρμα 29 οὗτος ὁ νόμος τῆς ζηλοτυπίας ᾧ ἐὰν παραβῇ ἡ γυνὴ ὑπ' ἀνδρὸς οὖσα καὶ μιανθῇ 30 ἢ ἄνθρωπος ᾧ ἐὰν ἐπέλθῃ ἐπ' αὐτὸν πνεῦμα ζηλώσεως καὶ ζηλώσῃ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ καὶ στήσει τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ ἔναντι κυρίου καὶ ποιήσει αὐτῇ ὁ ἱερεὺς πάντα τὸν νόμον τοῦτον 31 καὶ ἀθῷος ἔσται ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἀπὸ ἁμαρτίας καὶ ἡ γυνὴ ἐκείνη λήμψεται τὴν ἁμαρτίαν αὐτῆς
A thigh isn't an embryo.  Bauer, Liddel & Scott and Lampe, and consequently myself, know nothing of such a usage.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2012, 01:02:59 PM »

Numbers 5
My Bible (and what I remember of the Jews') only mentions conception in the context that if she is innocent she will conceive.  If she is guilty, it only says her privy parts will swell, evidently thereby rendered unfit for entry and I guess painful.  Nothing about abortion.

It does talk about the woman miscarrying if she had sinned.
I don't see anything about any miscarriage.
Quote
11 καὶ ἐλάλησεν κύριος πρὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων 12 λάλησον τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ καὶ ἐρεῖς πρὸς αὐτούς ἀνδρὸς ἀνδρὸς ἐὰν παραβῇ ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ καὶ παρίδῃ αὐτὸν ὑπεριδοῦσα 13 καὶ κοιμηθῇ τις μετ' αὐτῆς κοίτην σπέρματος καὶ λάθῃ ἐξ ὀφθαλμῶν τοῦ ἀνδρὸς αὐτῆς καὶ κρύψῃ αὐτὴ δὲ ᾖ μεμιαμμένη καὶ μάρτυς μὴ ἦν μετ' αὐτῆς καὶ αὐτὴ μὴ ᾖ συνειλημμένη 14 καὶ ἐπέλθῃ αὐτῷ πνεῦμα ζηλώσεως καὶ ζηλώσῃ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ αὐτὴ δὲ μεμίανται ἢ ἐπέλθῃ αὐτῷ πνεῦμα ζηλώσεως καὶ ζηλώσῃ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ αὐτὴ δὲ μὴ ᾖ μεμιαμμένη 15 καὶ ἄξει ὁ ἄνθρωπος τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ πρὸς τὸν ἱερέα καὶ προσοίσει τὸ δῶρον περὶ αὐτῆς τὸ δέκατον τοῦ οιφι ἄλευρον κρίθινον οὐκ ἐπιχεεῖ ἐπ' αὐτὸ ἔλαιον οὐδὲ ἐπιθήσει ἐπ' αὐτὸ λίβανον ἔστιν γὰρ θυσία ζηλοτυπίας θυσία μνημοσύνου ἀναμιμνήσκουσα ἁμαρτίαν 16 καὶ προσάξει αὐτὴν ὁ ἱερεὺς καὶ στήσει αὐτὴν ἔναντι κυρίου 17 καὶ λήμψεται ὁ ἱερεὺς ὕδωρ καθαρὸν ζῶν ἐν ἀγγείῳ ὀστρακίνῳ καὶ τῆς γῆς τῆς οὔσης ἐπὶ τοῦ ἐδάφους τῆς σκηνῆς τοῦ μαρτυρίου καὶ λαβὼν ὁ ἱερεὺς ἐμβαλεῖ εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ 18 καὶ στήσει ὁ ἱερεὺς τὴν γυναῖκα ἔναντι κυρίου καὶ ἀποκαλύψει τὴν κεφαλὴν τῆς γυναικὸς καὶ δώσει ἐπὶ τὰς χεῖρας αὐτῆς τὴν θυσίαν τοῦ μνημοσύνου τὴν θυσίαν τῆς ζηλοτυπίας ἐν δὲ τῇ χειρὶ τοῦ ἱερέως ἔσται τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τοῦ ἐπικαταρωμένου τούτου 19 καὶ ὁρκιεῖ αὐτὴν ὁ ἱερεὺς καὶ ἐρεῖ τῇ γυναικί εἰ μὴ κεκοίμηταί τις μετὰ σοῦ εἰ μὴ παραβέβηκας μιανθῆναι ὑπὸ τὸν ἄνδρα τὸν σεαυτῆς ἀθῴα ἴσθι ἀπὸ τοῦ ὕδατος τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τοῦ ἐπικαταρωμένου τούτου 20 εἰ δὲ σὺ παραβέβηκας ὑπ' ἀνδρὸς οὖσα ἢ μεμίανσαι καὶ ἔδωκέν τις τὴν κοίτην αὐτοῦ ἐν σοὶ πλὴν τοῦ ἀνδρός σου 21 καὶ ὁρκιεῖ ὁ ἱερεὺς τὴν γυναῖκα ἐν τοῖς ὅρκοις τῆς ἀρᾶς ταύτης καὶ ἐρεῖ ὁ ἱερεὺς τῇ γυναικί δῴη κύριός σε ἐν ἀρᾷ καὶ ἐνόρκιον ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ λαοῦ σου ἐν τῷ δοῦναι κύριον τὸν μηρόν σου διαπεπτωκότα καὶ τὴν κοιλίαν σου πεπρησμένην 22 καὶ εἰσελεύσεται τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ἐπικαταρώμενον τοῦτο εἰς τὴν κοιλίαν σου πρῆσαι γαστέρα καὶ διαπεσεῖν μηρόν σου καὶ ἐρεῖ ἡ γυνή γένοιτο γένοιτο 23 καὶ γράψει ὁ ἱερεὺς τὰς ἀρὰς ταύτας εἰς βιβλίον καὶ ἐξαλείψει εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τοῦ ἐπικαταρωμένου 24 καὶ ποτιεῖ τὴν γυναῖκα τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τοῦ ἐπικαταρωμένου καὶ εἰσελεύσεται εἰς αὐτὴν τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ἐπικαταρώμενον τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ 25 καὶ λήμψεται ὁ ἱερεὺς ἐκ χειρὸς τῆς γυναικὸς τὴν θυσίαν τῆς ζηλοτυπίας καὶ ἐπιθήσει τὴν θυσίαν ἔναντι κυρίου καὶ προσοίσει αὐτὴν πρὸς τὸ θυσιαστήριον 26 καὶ δράξεται ὁ ἱερεὺς ἀπὸ τῆς θυσίας τὸ μνημόσυνον αὐτῆς καὶ ἀνοίσει αὐτὸ ἐπὶ τὸ θυσιαστήριον καὶ μετὰ ταῦτα ποτιεῖ τὴν γυναῖκα τὸ ὕδωρ 27 καὶ ἔσται ἐὰν ᾖ μεμιαμμένη καὶ λήθῃ λάθῃ τὸν ἄνδρα αὐτῆς καὶ εἰσελεύσεται εἰς αὐτὴν τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ ἐλεγμοῦ τὸ ἐπικαταρώμενον καὶ πρησθήσεται τὴν κοιλίαν καὶ διαπεσεῖται ὁ μηρὸς αὐτῆς καὶ ἔσται ἡ γυνὴ εἰς ἀρὰν ἐν τῷ λαῷ αὐτῆς 28 ἐὰν δὲ μὴ μιανθῇ ἡ γυνὴ καὶ καθαρὰ ᾖ καὶ ἀθῴα ἔσται καὶ ἐκσπερματιεῖ σπέρμα 29 οὗτος ὁ νόμος τῆς ζηλοτυπίας ᾧ ἐὰν παραβῇ ἡ γυνὴ ὑπ' ἀνδρὸς οὖσα καὶ μιανθῇ 30 ἢ ἄνθρωπος ᾧ ἐὰν ἐπέλθῃ ἐπ' αὐτὸν πνεῦμα ζηλώσεως καὶ ζηλώσῃ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ καὶ στήσει τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ ἔναντι κυρίου καὶ ποιήσει αὐτῇ ὁ ἱερεὺς πάντα τὸν νόμον τοῦτον 31 καὶ ἀθῷος ἔσται ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἀπὸ ἁμαρτίας καὶ ἡ γυνὴ ἐκείνη λήμψεται τὴν ἁμαρτίαν αὐτῆς
A thigh isn't an embryo.  Bauer, Liddel & Scott and Lampe, and consequently myself, know nothing of such a usage.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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