Author Topic: Fill your life with hundreds of rituals and if you have time left, follow me!  (Read 9240 times)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.


We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?

Christ is not only Jehovah Rapha but Jehovah Sabaoth, Jehovah Shammah, Jehovah Jireh etc...

I wouldn't single out that relationship as central.
Could you say all that again in plain English, please?

Our relationship with Christ is much more than Jesus our physician.

Jesus our provider, our peace, our protector et al. He has many names and titles no one is central.
Did anyone here say that we see Jesus only or primarily as our Physician?

The church is a hospital for sinners is stated a lot.
By whom?
By people Peter, stop being so difficult, you know it is!
Please just give direct answers to the questions asked of you. You're wandering all over the place with the answers you do give, which only makes attempts to understand you more frustrating for us and more painful for you.

Orthodoxy - by G K Chesterton

"Enter into the Church and wash away your sins. For there is a hospital for sinners and not a court of law." - St. John Chrysostom

"A fundamental teaching of the Holy Fathers is that the Church is a "Hospital" which cures the wounded man."  - Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos

There! Three quality sources! One Saint, one hierarch from your own church and a book i'm reading about Orthodoxy.


Quote
Quote
I haven't read that the church is 'insert anything else' stated as often, if at all.
What sources have you read?
I've read some articles by Orthodox church hierarchy, 2 books so far, some writings of Saints and Fathers in the church and threads on here too. It's more common that the church is referred to as a hospital for sinners than anything else so far, in the limited literature i've read.
So, then, is it possible that YOU are the one overly focused on the "hospital for sinners" analogy? ;) Nobody else here made this the only or primary analogy used of the Church.
I know it's not the only analogy but it seems to be a primary analogy used of the church. It was brought into this thread by another poster and is described as a "fundamental teaching of the Holy Fathers" by a Metropolitan. So i would say no, i am not the only one.
People have used the "hospital for sinners" analogy for the Church, yes, and this is a fundamental belief the Church has about herself, but you are still the only one on this thread talking as though this is the ONLY or PRIMARY analogy the Church uses for herself. Why are you fixated on attacking this analogy above all others?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 01:24:10 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline FountainPen

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Okay, i accept it may not be a primary analogy simply because it's the only one i've read.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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How many rituals do you regularly practice that are actually commanded?

Direct commands.

List please...
Why does anyone listen or respond to trolling?


Sign me a "former troll"
Why do you think she's trolling?

I agree with FountainPen's reply to this one. If all you can do is accuse her of trolling, then you really do have nothing to contribute to this discussion.

If it has nothing to do with the discussion it is perhaps because this is NOT a discussion.

Faulty logic.

The reason I made this comment is that it seems on these types of discussion no one moves and inch from the point that they want to prove. I may be wrong but it seems that no argument advanced in favor of "rituals" changes anyone's mind and all discussion is to prove your point or agitate other people then that is trolling. If I am wrong I apologize.

Then do what you've been doing up until now and don't get involved.

Personally, i learn something every time i have a discussion.

You are correct. Why should I bother? You still set the bounds of this so-called discussion.

You are not unknown in Christian Internet forums, you know.
On what other Christian Internet forums is she known?
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Offline FountainPen

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Am i 'Alfred' again!? ;)


None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline J Michael

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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Am i 'Alfred' again!? ;)
Only if you want to be. ;)
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Offline primuspilus

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Offline Peter J

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Orthodoxy - by G K Chesterton


There! Three quality sources! One Saint, one hierarch from your own church and a book i'm reading about Orthodoxy.


Just an FYI--Chesterton was a staunch Catholic and was not writing, per se, about the Orthodox Church.  But maybe you already knew that.  Great book, nonetheless!

Yes i did already know and that's partly why i chose to read it, but thank you as i might not have known given the title.

I guess would say it is about orthodoxy. But in any case it's a very good book.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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I would probably prefer people did it in their own private moments rather than it being a corporate action as part of a service.
Is this because you are afraid of manipulation?
Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

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Offline J Michael

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Am i 'Alfred' again!? ;)
Only if you want to be. ;)
Who'd want to be?

PP

I guess Alfred would.  Wouldn't he??  Just who *is* this Alfred, anyway  ??? ??? ???
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

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Offline primuspilus

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Am i 'Alfred' again!? ;)
Only if you want to be. ;)
Who'd want to be?

PP

I guess Alfred would.  Wouldn't he??  Just who *is* this Alfred, anyway  ??? ??? ???
You cant ask Alfred who he is, because he will ignore you...as he did everyone.

PP
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Offline J Michael

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Am i 'Alfred' again!? ;)
Only if you want to be. ;)
Who'd want to be?

PP

I guess Alfred would.  Wouldn't he??  Just who *is* this Alfred, anyway  ??? ??? ???
You cant ask Alfred who he is, because he will ignore you...as he did everyone.

PP

Ohh...*that* Alfred.
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

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Offline Peter J

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How many rituals do you regularly practice that are actually commanded?

Direct commands.

List please...
Why does anyone listen or respond to trolling?


Sign me a "former troll"
Why do you think she's trolling?

I agree with FountainPen's reply to this one. If all you can do is accuse her of trolling, then you really do have nothing to contribute to this discussion.

If it has nothing to do with the discussion it is perhaps because this is NOT a discussion.

Faulty logic.

I didn't care much for your OP, as I indicated earlier; but perhaps some people did, seeing it has generated 236 (and counting) replies.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Ortho_cat

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How many rituals do you regularly practice that are actually commanded?

Direct commands.

List please...
Why does anyone listen or respond to trolling?


Sign me a "former troll"
Why do you think she's trolling?

I agree with FountainPen's reply to this one. If all you can do is accuse her of trolling, then you really do have nothing to contribute to this discussion.

If it has nothing to do with the discussion it is perhaps because this is NOT a discussion.

Faulty logic.

I didn't care much for your OP, as I indicated earlier; but perhaps some people did, seeing it has generated 236 (and counting) replies.

I think the title is quite inflammatory...being as this was split from another thread, i wonder how the title came about?  ???

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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I am no more "cut off" from the rest of the body than your OOs are from your EOs  ;)

Just noticed this. Tell you what, whenever you can handle actually gathering in a community of humans for a while, then you can criticize other divisions. But just to be clear, I'm not somebody who pretends that these two churches are the same thing.

Anyway, you're in schism with everyone, because it's the Holy Church of You and Your Own Crap, so whatever smelly face.
 
You've already received a number of warnings to keep a tight rein on your juvenile, often vulgar, wit. Seeing that you so much as admitted that this was intended to be a personal insult, you are receiving this warning to last for the full duration of 99 days. Do this again, and you will be placed on post moderation.

If you feel this warning is wrong, feel free to appeal it via private message to Veniamin.

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Offline J Michael

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I am no more "cut off" from the rest of the body than your OOs are from your EOs  ;)

Just noticed this. Tell you what, whenever you can handle actually gathering in a community of humans for a while, then you can criticize other divisions. But just to be clear, I'm not somebody who pretends that these two churches are the same thing.

Anyway, you're in schism with everyone, because it's the Holy Church of You and Your Own Crap, so whatever smelly face.

Was that *really* necessary  :o :o?

Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt--**hopefully** it was just a typo. 
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Ortho_cat

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I am no more "cut off" from the rest of the body than your OOs are from your EOs  ;)

Just noticed this. Tell you what, whenever you can handle actually gathering in a community of humans for a while, then you can criticize other divisions. But just to be clear, I'm not somebody who pretends that these two churches are the same thing.

Anyway, you're in schism with everyone, because it's the Holy Church of You and Your Own Crap, so whatever smelly face.

Was that *really* necessary  :o :o?

Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt--**hopefully** it was just a typo. 

or a bizarre attempt at humor...

Offline primuspilus

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I am no more "cut off" from the rest of the body than your OOs are from your EOs  ;)

Just noticed this. Tell you what, whenever you can handle actually gathering in a community of humans for a while, then you can criticize other divisions. But just to be clear, I'm not somebody who pretends that these two churches are the same thing.

Anyway, you're in schism with everyone, because it's the Holy Church of You and Your Own Crap, so whatever smelly face.

Was that *really* necessary  :o :o?

Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt--**hopefully** it was just a typo. 

or a bizarre attempt at humor...
I thought it was friggin hilarious.

PP
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Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline J Michael

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I am no more "cut off" from the rest of the body than your OOs are from your EOs  ;)

Just noticed this. Tell you what, whenever you can handle actually gathering in a community of humans for a while, then you can criticize other divisions. But just to be clear, I'm not somebody who pretends that these two churches are the same thing.

Anyway, you're in schism with everyone, because it's the Holy Church of You and Your Own Crap, so whatever smelly face.

Was that *really* necessary  :o :o?

Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt--**hopefully** it was just a typo. 

or a bizarre attempt at humor...
I thought it was friggin hilarious.

PP

Well, call me an *old* (because I *am* old--well, certainly older than most of you  ;D) fuddy-duddy, but I found it neither hilarious, nor bizarre--just offensive.  Now, if Alveus had put a smiley face after his smelly face comment, one might, perhaps, maybe, possibly, have seen that it was an attempt at humor.  But I guess a greater degree of density comes with my greater age.  Oh well....
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline JamesRottnek

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I am no more "cut off" from the rest of the body than your OOs are from your EOs  ;)

Just noticed this. Tell you what, whenever you can handle actually gathering in a community of humans for a while, then you can criticize other divisions. But just to be clear, I'm not somebody who pretends that these two churches are the same thing.

Anyway, you're in schism with everyone, because it's the Holy Church of You and Your Own Crap, so whatever smelly face.

Was that *really* necessary  :o :o?

Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt--**hopefully** it was just a typo. 

or a bizarre attempt at humor...
I thought it was friggin hilarious.

PP

Well, call me an *old* (because I *am* old--well, certainly older than most of you  ;D) fuddy-duddy, but I found it neither hilarious, nor bizarre--just offensive.  Now, if Alveus had put a smiley face after his smelly face comment, one might, perhaps, maybe, possibly, have seen that it was an attempt at humor.  But I guess a greater degree of density comes with my greater age.  Oh well....

I've read enough of Alveus' posts that I sort of assumed a smiley face was implied.
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Offline Aindriú

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LOL. J Michael is old.

I'm going to need this.

Offline J Michael

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I am no more "cut off" from the rest of the body than your OOs are from your EOs  ;)

Just noticed this. Tell you what, whenever you can handle actually gathering in a community of humans for a while, then you can criticize other divisions. But just to be clear, I'm not somebody who pretends that these two churches are the same thing.

Anyway, you're in schism with everyone, because it's the Holy Church of You and Your Own Crap, so whatever smelly face.

Was that *really* necessary  :o :o?

Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt--**hopefully** it was just a typo. 

or a bizarre attempt at humor...
I thought it was friggin hilarious.

PP

Well, call me an *old* (because I *am* old--well, certainly older than most of you  ;D) fuddy-duddy, but I found it neither hilarious, nor bizarre--just offensive.  Now, if Alveus had put a smiley face after his smelly face comment, one might, perhaps, maybe, possibly, have seen that it was an attempt at humor.  But I guess a greater degree of density comes with my greater age.  Oh well....

I've read enough of Alveus' posts that I sort of assumed a smiley face was implied.

What does an implied smiley face look like  ::)?  I don't see any of them in the text editor.  Hmm....Better get my eyes checked  ;D!
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Offline J Michael

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LOL. J Michael is old.

You betcha  :laugh: :laugh:!  I *could* be your grandpa--lucky for you I'm not  :laugh: :laugh:!
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Aindriú

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LOL. J Michael is old.

You betcha  :laugh: :laugh:!  I *could* be your grandpa--lucky for you I'm not  :laugh: :laugh:!

 :D ;D

I'm going to need this.

Offline FormerReformer

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Orthodoxy - by G K Chesterton


There! Three quality sources! One Saint, one hierarch from your own church and a book i'm reading about Orthodoxy.


Just an FYI--Chesterton was a staunch Catholic and was not writing, per se, about the Orthodox Church.  But maybe you already knew that.  Great book, nonetheless!

Yes i did already know and that's partly why i chose to read it, but thank you as i might not have known given the title.

I guess would say it is about orthodoxy. But in any case it's a very good book.

And, just another little nit-picking point about said book about (o)rthodoxy by a "staunch Catholic"- at the time the book on (o)rthodoxy was written, the "staunch Catholic" was still an Anglican.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

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Offline J Michael

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Orthodoxy - by G K Chesterton


There! Three quality sources! One Saint, one hierarch from your own church and a book i'm reading about Orthodoxy.


Just an FYI--Chesterton was a staunch Catholic and was not writing, per se, about the Orthodox Church.  But maybe you already knew that.  Great book, nonetheless!

Yes i did already know and that's partly why i chose to read it, but thank you as i might not have known given the title.

I guess would say it is about orthodoxy. But in any case it's a very good book.

And, just another little nit-picking point about said book about (o)rthodoxy by a "staunch Catholic"- at the time the book on (o)rthodoxy was written, the "staunch Catholic" was still an Anglican.

Amazing, isn't it  ;D
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Papist

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Orthodoxy - by G K Chesterton


There! Three quality sources! One Saint, one hierarch from your own church and a book i'm reading about Orthodoxy.


Just an FYI--Chesterton was a staunch Catholic and was not writing, per se, about the Orthodox Church.  But maybe you already knew that.  Great book, nonetheless!

Yes i did already know and that's partly why i chose to read it, but thank you as i might not have known given the title.

I guess would say it is about orthodoxy. But in any case it's a very good book.

And, just another little nit-picking point about said book about (o)rthodoxy by a "staunch Catholic"- at the time the book on (o)rthodoxy was written, the "staunch Catholic" was still an Anglican.
From what I understand, the process of writing the book was a large step in his converstion to Catholicism, much like Blessed Newman's writing of his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine contributed to his own conversion.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 05:02:01 PM by Papist »
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Orthodoxy - by G K Chesterton


There! Three quality sources! One Saint, one hierarch from your own church and a book i'm reading about Orthodoxy.


Just an FYI--Chesterton was a staunch Catholic and was not writing, per se, about the Orthodox Church.  But maybe you already knew that.  Great book, nonetheless!

Yes i did already know and that's partly why i chose to read it, but thank you as i might not have known given the title.

I guess would say it is about orthodoxy. But in any case it's a very good book.

And, just another little nit-picking point about said book about (o)rthodoxy by a "staunch Catholic"- at the time the book on (o)rthodoxy was written, the "staunch Catholic" was still an Anglican.
From what I understand, the process of writing the book was a large step in his converstion to Catholicism, much like Blessed Newman's writing of his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine contributed to his own conversion.

was Cardinal Newman also Anglican?

Offline FormerReformer

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Orthodoxy - by G K Chesterton


There! Three quality sources! One Saint, one hierarch from your own church and a book i'm reading about Orthodoxy.


Just an FYI--Chesterton was a staunch Catholic and was not writing, per se, about the Orthodox Church.  But maybe you already knew that.  Great book, nonetheless!

Yes i did already know and that's partly why i chose to read it, but thank you as i might not have known given the title.

I guess would say it is about orthodoxy. But in any case it's a very good book.

And, just another little nit-picking point about said book about (o)rthodoxy by a "staunch Catholic"- at the time the book on (o)rthodoxy was written, the "staunch Catholic" was still an Anglican.
From what I understand, the process of writing the book was a large step in his converstion to Catholicism, much like Blessed Newman's writing of his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine contributed to his own conversion.

was Cardinal Newman also Anglican?

He was. Before his conversion to Roman Catholicism, Cardinal Newman was one of the primary influences behind the Anglo-Catholic revival of the 19th century.
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Offline Papist

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One of the rituals of the Byzantine Catholic Church that has been very useful in my spiritual life is prostrations during lent. There was one occassion that I can remember that it truly stirred in me a sens of sorrow for my sins and my absolute dependence on God. We need these sorts of rituals because we are not spirits trapped in bodies, but rather, unities of body and soul.
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Offline Peter J

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Orthodoxy - by G K Chesterton


There! Three quality sources! One Saint, one hierarch from your own church and a book i'm reading about Orthodoxy.


Just an FYI--Chesterton was a staunch Catholic and was not writing, per se, about the Orthodox Church.  But maybe you already knew that.  Great book, nonetheless!

Yes i did already know and that's partly why i chose to read it, but thank you as i might not have known given the title.

I guess would say it is about orthodoxy. But in any case it's a very good book.

And, just another little nit-picking point about said book about (o)rthodoxy by a "staunch Catholic"- at the time the book on (o)rthodoxy was written, the "staunch Catholic" was still an Anglican.
From what I understand, the process of writing the book was a large step in his converstion to Catholicism, much like Blessed Newman's writing of his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine contributed to his own conversion.

Interesting, I never heard that before, but only that he was still Anglican when he wrote it. I'm tempted to start a thread on that in the Inklings Group (on CAF).
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Offline Ortho_cat

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One of the rituals of the Byzantine Catholic Church that has been very useful in my spiritual life is prostrations during lent. There was one occassion that I can remember that it truly stirred in me a sens of sorrow for my sins and my absolute dependence on God. We need these sorts of rituals because we are not spirits trapped in bodies, but rather, unities of body and soul.

amen...and sometimes it can take several (hundred) of them for it to sink in...

btw are u fasting with the byzcath's as well?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 07:57:22 PM by Ortho_cat »

Offline Papist

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One of the rituals of the Byzantine Catholic Church that has been very useful in my spiritual life is prostrations during lent. There was one occassion that I can remember that it truly stirred in me a sens of sorrow for my sins and my absolute dependence on God. We need these sorts of rituals because we are not spirits trapped in bodies, but rather, unities of body and soul.

amen...and sometimes it can take several (hundred) of them for it to sink in...

btw are u fasting with the byzcath's as well?
Not the stricter fast, but the Friday/Wenesday fast.
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Offline Papist

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Foutain Pen,
One of the things that really strikes me about the Catholic and Orthodox Churches is their insistence on the unity of the human person. As a unity of body and soul, our faith cannot be just about the soul. It must be corporal as well. This makes sense in light of how Christ saved us. God didn't just declare, "you are redeemed." Instead, Christ took on a real substanial human nature, along with all of its physical qualities, offered his human life for our sins, and was resurrected to conquer death for us. The faith is incarnational, and that means including rituals in our praxis.
These rituals have the effect of even bringing our emotions under the command of our reason and our will. We will to serve and love God, but we do not always feel that. These rituals help to direct our emotions, which are part of the human person, to the reasonable goal of willing to serve God above all. They help to subject every aspect of ourselves to God.
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Offline Peter J

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btw are u fasting with the byzcath's as well?

That can be tough, inasmuch as following another Church's fasting rules doesn't excuse one from following one's own Church's fasting rules as well.
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Offline Ortho_cat

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btw are u fasting with the byzcath's as well?

That can be tough, inasmuch as following another Church's fasting rules doesn't excuse one from following one's own Church's fasting rules as well.

i thought they were part of the same "Church"?

Offline Peter J

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btw are u fasting with the byzcath's as well?

That can be tough, inasmuch as following another Church's fasting rules doesn't excuse one from following one's own Church's fasting rules as well.

i thought they were part of the same "Church"?

The Melkite Church, the UGCC, the Maronite Church, etc. are sui iuris churches, not just rites. (If you're wondering whether they are in full communion with each other, the answer is yes.)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 12:52:24 PM by Peter J »
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Offline Papist

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btw are u fasting with the byzcath's as well?

That can be tough, inasmuch as following another Church's fasting rules doesn't excuse one from following one's own Church's fasting rules as well.

i thought they were part of the same "Church"?
We are one Church. You are correct. But within the one Church we have severa sui iuris Churches, much like you have autocephalis Churches in the same communion.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 12:53:39 PM by Papist »
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Offline dzheremi

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btw are u fasting with the byzcath's as well?

That can be tough, inasmuch as following another Church's fasting rules doesn't excuse one from following one's own Church's fasting rules as well.

You mean how to fast (as the Byzantines do) and NOT fast (as the Latins do) at the same time? That does seem pretty tough! :P

Offline primuspilus

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btw are u fasting with the byzcath's as well?

That can be tough, inasmuch as following another Church's fasting rules doesn't excuse one from following one's own Church's fasting rules as well.

You mean how to fast (as the Byzantines do) and NOT fast (as the Latins do) at the same time? That does seem pretty tough! :P
Im eating this hamburger, but I'll try not to like it!

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Offline Ortho_cat

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btw are u fasting with the byzcath's as well?

That can be tough, inasmuch as following another Church's fasting rules doesn't excuse one from following one's own Church's fasting rules as well.

You mean how to fast (as the Byzantines do) and NOT fast (as the Latins do) at the same time? That does seem pretty tough! :P
Im eating this hamburger, but I'll try not to like it!

PP

haha...

Offline Peter J

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btw are u fasting with the byzcath's as well?

That can be tough, inasmuch as following another Church's fasting rules doesn't excuse one from following one's own Church's fasting rules as well.

You mean how to fast (as the Byzantines do) and NOT fast (as the Latins do) at the same time?

Funny, but no. :)
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