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Author Topic: Fill your life with hundreds of rituals and if you have time left, follow me!  (Read 7599 times) Average Rating: 0
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #180 on: March 06, 2012, 06:59:43 PM »

You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.


We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?

Christ is not only Jehovah Rapha but Jehovah Sabaoth, Jehovah Shammah, Jehovah Jireh etc...

I wouldn't single out that relationship as central.
Could you say all that again in plain English, please?

Our relationship with Christ is much more than Jesus our physician.

Jesus our provider, our peace, our protector et al. He has many names and titles no one is central.
Did anyone here say that we see Jesus only or primarily as our Physician?

The church is a hospital for sinners is stated a lot. I haven't read that the church is 'insert anything else' stated as often, if at all.

And what, exactly, is your experience of Orthodoxy? The Internet? Books?
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« Reply #181 on: March 06, 2012, 07:10:50 PM »

I don't see the church primarily as a hospital

Really? The idea of the church as a "hospital for sinners" is common to Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike.

Goody! I'm a person.
Expressing my personal view.

so what do you consider it to be then?

I have no idea Ortho Cat, i really don't. I have never thought of the church in any way other than a functioning body of working parts that make up a whole with Christ as the head.

FountainPen, do body parts normally do their own thing, without any other part knowing what that thing is?  Because it seems to me that if my left hand is changing the channel on the television, while my right hand is writing a letter, and my eyes are watching my dog chase his tail, then nothing will actually be accomplished.
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« Reply #182 on: March 06, 2012, 08:08:37 PM »

I don't see the church primarily as a hospital

Really? The idea of the church as a "hospital for sinners" is common to Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike.

Goody! I'm a person.
Expressing my personal view.

That's alright, I never thought it was otherwise; I was just surprised by it.
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« Reply #183 on: March 06, 2012, 08:28:09 PM »

if we don't go to church to be healed and spiritually fed, restoring our wholeness in Christ, what do we go there for? socializing? to show each other how saintly we are? Seriously...I don't see the alternative here...  Huh

Go there to the church building, i guess my answer would be... to gather.

Why do we gather? I suppose to edify and encourage each other in Christ.

I do not believe we go to a church building to worship God. Like i have expressed before, i believe worship is what you do all week.

Ok, now i'm really confused. I get the edification and encouragement part, well enough.

How can it not be the role of the Christian to engage in corporate worship towards God? We see scripture replete with references to this!

So you don't think Christians should gather together to pray, to sing hymns, to read the scriptures, to praise and give thanks to God? What about the Lord's supper? Shouldn't we gather together to celebrate this? How can you separate these activities from worship? Or perhaps I should ask, what is is that you do differently during personal "worship" that differs from the above mentioned activities?
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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #184 on: March 06, 2012, 08:39:41 PM »

You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.


We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?

Christ is not only Jehovah Rapha but Jehovah Sabaoth, Jehovah Shammah, Jehovah Jireh etc...

I wouldn't single out that relationship as central.
Could you say all that again in plain English, please?

Our relationship with Christ is much more than Jesus our physician.

Jesus our provider, our peace, our protector et al. He has many names and titles no one is central.
Did anyone here say that we see Jesus only or primarily as our Physician?

The church is a hospital for sinners is stated a lot. I haven't read that the church is 'insert anything else' stated as often, if at all.

And what, exactly, is your experience of Orthodoxy? The Internet? Books?

I doubt it can even be books.  If you read very many Orthodox books at all, at least ones that are more theologically inclined than Frederica Matthews-Green books (not that there's anything wrong with those), you will at the very least read countless times about the Church being the Body of Christ.
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« Reply #185 on: March 06, 2012, 08:48:00 PM »

If you read very many Orthodox books at all, at least ones that are more theologically inclined than Frederica Matthews-Green books (not that there's anything wrong with those)
"In this life, God is veiled by the material world he created; in the next life, the veil is taken away and there is no separation." -Frederica Matthews-Green
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« Reply #186 on: March 06, 2012, 08:55:12 PM »

If you read very many Orthodox books at all, at least ones that are more theologically inclined than Frederica Matthews-Green books (not that there's anything wrong with those)
"In this life, God is veiled by the material world he created; in the next life, the veil is taken away and there is no separation." -Frederica Matthews-Green

great quote.
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« Reply #187 on: March 06, 2012, 09:02:03 PM »

Fountain Pen,

Having read through this whole thread, I can't help but wonder, like Shanghaiski, why you're here.  (And don't say for the same reason that I am, because you don't know why I am here).  I speculate about several possible reasons that you may be here and I'd be sincerely interested to know from you if any of them are correct:
1.  To bash Orthodoxy and organized religion in general
2.  To sway Orthodox away from the Church
3.  To be convinced, through a kind of perverse argumentative process, of the truth of Orthodoxy and/or organized religion in general
4.  To ask for help without actually coming out and asking for it
5.  To just argue for the sake of it
6.  All of the above
7.  None of the above--if so, just why *are* you here on this board, having started this thread?

Just a few thoughts.   Wink
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« Reply #188 on: March 06, 2012, 09:09:53 PM »

IIRC, FP said that she knew someone IRL who is Orthodox...at least I think so.
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« Reply #189 on: March 06, 2012, 09:46:53 PM »

Fountain Pen,

Having read through this whole thread, I can't help but wonder, like Shanghaiski, why you're here.  (And don't say for the same reason that I am, because you don't know why I am here).  I speculate about several possible reasons that you may be here and I'd be sincerely interested to know from you if any of them are correct:
1.  To bash Orthodoxy and organized religion in general
2.  To sway Orthodox away from the Church
3.  To be convinced, through a kind of perverse argumentative process, of the truth of Orthodoxy and/or organized religion in general
4.  To ask for help without actually coming out and asking for it
5.  To just argue for the sake of it
6.  All of the above
7.  None of the above--if so, just why *are* you here on this board, having started this thread?

Just a few thoughts.   Wink

What if she's here to learn about Orthodoxy and finds the discussions interesting? What if she wants to see how people respond to legitimate concerns she has about Orthodox Christianity?

I don't come from any form of Protestant background, so FountainPen asks a lot of questions and has a perspective that I've never considered before. I think they're really good questions, and I love reading the responses that take her seriously. I always worry when people ask her what she's doing here because I really don't want her to leave!
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« Reply #190 on: March 06, 2012, 10:19:06 PM »

Worship to me is a lifestyle, so the way i worship is not something i separate out and do on a Sunday morning but it's incorporated into everything i do in life. When i wash dishes, i do it "unto The Lord", when i tend a sick relative i am worshipping God with my life. When i speak to someone about God i am worshipping and when i put out the rubbish i am worshipping also.

Our whole life is sacrifice of worship, praise and thanksgiving to God. Whatever we do in life, we do "unto The Lord". (Colossians 3:23)

I think this is true, as long as you're mindful of God as you're doing these things.

My priest was talking about someone (another priest? a monk?) who's knees were so bad that he could no longer do prostrations. He ended up getting a treadmill and said that running on the treadmill was just as beneficial for him as doing the prostrations used to be.

Akimori, i might i be mentally unwell if i started adding certain rituals to my day such as handwashing, checking doors making sure they are shut, touching light switches 20 times or stepping over a threshold three times before i can shut the door. It's not the one thing that i might do or the reason that i might have for what i do -- which might sound incredibly plausible -- but the behaviours collectively can become problematic and can be a sign of somethng more sinister. I'm not suggesting that Orthodox Christians are mentally unwell but i'm suggesting that there is a line where rituals can be problematic to us even though we feel we might have good reasons for them.

I think the treadmill example applies to this concern as well. There seems to be a lot of flexibility in the Orthodox Church as to what would be most beneficial to the individual, which I think would help prevent these rituals from straying into the superstitious (for example, if someone were to believe that if you don't do these rituals a precise way at a precise time of day a precise number of times, you would derive no benefit).

--

If I'm off in any way, someone please correct me. I'm still learning about Orthodoxy, too.
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« Reply #191 on: March 06, 2012, 10:33:54 PM »

Worship to me is a lifestyle, so the way i worship is not something i separate out and do on a Sunday morning but it's incorporated into everything i do in life. When i wash dishes, i do it "unto The Lord", when i tend a sick relative i am worshipping God with my life. When i speak to someone about God i am worshipping and when i put out the rubbish i am worshipping also.

Our whole life is sacrifice of worship, praise and thanksgiving to God. Whatever we do in life, we do "unto The Lord". (Colossians 3:23)

This reminds me of a post from one of my favorite blogs, evlogia. It's written by an Orthodox stay-at-home mom. Blog subtitle: "Grace in the profoundly ordinary."
http://evlogiaonline.com/2012/02/19/judgment-sunday/

Just an example of an Orthodox Christian living out her life.
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« Reply #192 on: March 06, 2012, 10:51:42 PM »

If you read very many Orthodox books at all, at least ones that are more theologically inclined than Frederica Matthews-Green books (not that there's anything wrong with those)
"In this life, God is veiled by the material world he created; in the next life, the veil is taken away and there is no separation." -Frederica Matthews-Green

great quote.
Mani would have loved it.
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« Reply #193 on: March 06, 2012, 10:55:23 PM »

Fountain Pen, I'm not trying to be offensive, but are you saying you're against going to any church at all? Because the Orthodox are not the only ones who have services with a pattern, so to speak. Even churches who say they don't have routines, really do- because if they always open by singing hymns and then listening to the sermon, then that's a routine too.

At You Tube, you can find many samples of what an Orthodox service looks like in action. I can't force you to go to a church. That's up to you. But Orthodoxy is not just to be talked about, and it is very beautiful when lived out. It is not just a series of things to do.

Thanks.  Smiley
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« Reply #194 on: March 07, 2012, 05:36:54 AM »

Fountain Pen, I'm not trying to be offensive, but are you saying you're against going to any church at all? Because the Orthodox are not the only ones who have services with a pattern, so to speak. Even churches who say they don't have routines, really do- because if they always open by singing hymns and then listening to the sermon, then that's a routine too.

At You Tube, you can find many samples of what an Orthodox service looks like in action. I can't force you to go to a church. That's up to you. But Orthodoxy is not just to be talked about, and it is very beautiful when lived out. It is not just a series of things to do.

Thanks.  Smiley

Biro: even when you've 'got your chops on' as it were, you couldn't be offensive, not to me at least, so don't ever worry about that. Smiley

Several points. I've booked a Greek holiday so i will eventually experience an Orthodox church -- in context as well! To answer your other question as honestly as i can at the moment -- i'm not against going to a church service, no. I do occasionally go, though mainly to quiet prayer services with nothing else going on, but that isn't often i admit.

I don't feel good about anything that any church might do that puts a block inbetween the lost and God. I don't really know what i mean by that entirely. I suppose i don't really know at all Biro. I do get together with some of the people who have also come out of church like me.
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« Reply #195 on: March 07, 2012, 05:49:02 AM »

Fountain Pen,

Having read through this whole thread, I can't help but wonder, like Shanghaiski, why you're here.  (And don't say for the same reason that I am, because you don't know why I am here).  I speculate about several possible reasons that you may be here and I'd be sincerely interested to know from you if any of them are correct:
1.  To bash Orthodoxy and organized religion in general
2.  To sway Orthodox away from the Church
3.  To be convinced, through a kind of perverse argumentative process, of the truth of Orthodoxy and/or organized religion in general
4.  To ask for help without actually coming out and asking for it
5.  To just argue for the sake of it
6.  All of the above
7.  None of the above--if so, just why *are* you here on this board, having started this thread?

Just a few thoughts.   Wink



I'm always puzzled by people demanding to know the answer to this question. It is only asked of non-Orthodox people i think. People have all kinds of motives for being on a forum and i think it's none of anyone else's business really why you, me or or anyone else does what they do. It's a forum for goodness sakes, on the innynet! #laughs

You read what i post. Choose to answer it or choose to ignore it, it's no off skin my nose!

Why i am on this forum shouldn't matter to your choice to respond to a post or not.
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« Reply #196 on: March 07, 2012, 06:34:03 AM »

IIRC, FP said that she knew someone IRL who is Orthodox...at least I think so.

Yes that's true, i have a friend who's almost catechumen now which initially horrified me and started my search into Orthodoxy, mostly to prove to her the idolatry involved and get her to reconsider. After a while of reading around this forum though, for whatever reason that initially brought me here, the statements of Orthodox belief presented a more personal challenge to me.
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« Reply #197 on: March 07, 2012, 06:51:57 AM »

Several points. I've booked a Greek holiday so i will eventually experience an Orthodox church -- in context as well!

Something about this statement perturbs me, hah.

Yes that's true, i have a friend who's almost catechumen now which initially horrified me and started my search into Orthodoxy, mostly to prove to her the idolatry involved and get her to reconsider. After a while of reading around this forum though, for whatever reason that initially brought me here, the statements of Orthodox belief presented a more personal challenge to me.

This is why I like you.

By the way, you didn't exactly answer my question earlier, though I can understand the desire to shortcircuit my line of inquiry.
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« Reply #198 on: March 07, 2012, 06:57:36 AM »

if we don't go to church to be healed and spiritually fed, restoring our wholeness in Christ, what do we go there for? socializing? to show each other how saintly we are? Seriously...I don't see the alternative here...  Huh

Go there to the church building, i guess my answer would be... to gather.

Why do we gather? I suppose to edify and encourage each other in Christ.

I do not believe we go to a church building to worship God. Like i have expressed before, i believe worship is what you do all week.

Ok, now i'm really confused. I get the edification and encouragement part, well enough.

How can it not be the role of the Christian to engage in corporate worship towards God? We see scripture replete with references to this!

So you don't think Christians should gather together to pray, to sing hymns, to read the scriptures, to praise and give thanks to God? What about the Lord's supper? Shouldn't we gather together to celebrate this? How can you separate these activities from worship? Or perhaps I should ask, what is is that you do differently during personal "worship" that differs from the above mentioned activities?

Yes to all of the above. To pray together, to pray for each other, to encourage, to work and sing songs yes, sometimes and to break bread with each other. To meet together to take responsibility for the community within which we live locally as well.

I am not against a church building or service but what it is often turned into is a beast with a life of its own which needs feeding and i don't like that. I've experienced the damage it can do and i feel i have pinpointed the causes as to why that happens and i don't want to be a part of it.

I don't quite know what you mean by personal worship though as i feel worship (in my experience) is integrated into all parts of my life right now and not separated in the form of a service or a specific planned moment to either pray or sing a hymn. Though i do sing and i do pray but it's much more random.

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« Reply #199 on: March 07, 2012, 07:00:15 AM »


By the way, you didn't exactly answer my question earlier, though I can understand the desire to shortcircuit my line of inquiry.



#laughs

This is why i like you too!

EDIT:
Quote
I like to say pillar and ground of the truth a lot.
and this too.
I'll give it another shot.
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« Reply #200 on: March 07, 2012, 07:10:10 AM »

You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.


We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?

Christ is not only Jehovah Rapha but Jehovah Sabaoth, Jehovah Shammah, Jehovah Jireh etc...

I wouldn't single out that relationship as central.
Could you say all that again in plain English, please?

Our relationship with Christ is much more than Jesus our physician.

Jesus our provider, our peace, our protector et al. He has many names and titles no one is central.
Did anyone here say that we see Jesus only or primarily as our Physician?

The church is a hospital for sinners is stated a lot.
By whom?
By people Peter, stop being so difficult, you know it is!

Quote
I haven't read that the church is 'insert anything else' stated as often, if at all.
What sources have you read?
I've read some articles by Orthodox church hierarchy, 2 books so far, some writings of Saints and Fathers in the church and threads on here too. It's more common that the church is referred to as a hospital for sinners than anything else so far, in the limited literature i've read.
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« Reply #201 on: March 07, 2012, 07:21:20 AM »


Okay, well taking the sign of the cross as the example ...

I would like to know if you distinguish between making the sign in a personal moment of prayerfulness or thankfulness or reverence v. at appointed or prescribed times in an appointed or prescribed manner.

Similarly to the issues with icons, if we're taking this one action and breaking it down, then no, i don't have a problem with the action itself or the reason behind this movement. I would probably prefer people did it in their own private moments rather than it being a corporate action as part of a service.

My original answer to you about this still applies too.
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« Reply #202 on: March 07, 2012, 07:51:58 AM »


Okay, well taking the sign of the cross as the example ...

I would like to know if you distinguish between making the sign in a personal moment of prayerfulness or thankfulness or reverence v. at appointed or prescribed times in an appointed or prescribed manner.

Similarly to the issues with icons, if we're taking this one action and breaking it down, then no, i don't have a problem with the action itself or the reason behind this movement. I would probably prefer people did it in their own private moments rather than it being a corporate action as part of a service.

My original answer to you about this still applies too.

So you are a house of one & others are a house of many in one. You are your own laity, minister, overseer etc.
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« Reply #203 on: March 07, 2012, 08:02:17 AM »


Okay, well taking the sign of the cross as the example ...

I would like to know if you distinguish between making the sign in a personal moment of prayerfulness or thankfulness or reverence v. at appointed or prescribed times in an appointed or prescribed manner.

Similarly to the issues with icons, if we're taking this one action and breaking it down, then no, i don't have a problem with the action itself or the reason behind this movement. I would probably prefer people did it in their own private moments rather than it being a corporate action as part of a service.

My original answer to you about this still applies too.

So you are a house of one & others are a house of many in one. You are your own laity, minister, overseer etc.

No, we are all accountable to each other.
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« Reply #204 on: March 07, 2012, 08:17:00 AM »

I would simply say that God demands a specific way He is to be worshipped. Why did God strike down the priests for presenting strange fire? Why set up ways for the Levite priests to worship? Why did Christ himself tell us "this is how you pray"? Why is the Book of Revelation, during the worship, so structured?

These arent empty and meaningless things that are being done. I would also submit, that every church, Orthodox, Roman, or Protestant have their own "rituals".

PP
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« Reply #205 on: March 07, 2012, 08:21:21 AM »


Okay, well taking the sign of the cross as the example ...

I would like to know if you distinguish between making the sign in a personal moment of prayerfulness or thankfulness or reverence v. at appointed or prescribed times in an appointed or prescribed manner.

Similarly to the issues with icons, if we're taking this one action and breaking it down, then no, i don't have a problem with the action itself or the reason behind this movement. I would probably prefer people did it in their own private moments rather than it being a corporate action as part of a service.

My original answer to you about this still applies too.

So you are a house of one & others are a house of many in one. You are your own laity, minister, overseer etc.

No, we are all accountable to each other.
Then the awareness of the indidivual's faith is paramount in worship, whether corporately or in individual devotion. How one lives life according to the precepts worshipped is the summation.
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« Reply #206 on: March 07, 2012, 08:25:48 AM »

How many rituals do you regularly practice that are actually commanded?

Direct commands.

List please...
Why does anyone listen or respond to trolling?


Sign me a "former troll"
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« Reply #207 on: March 07, 2012, 08:38:34 AM »

How many rituals do you regularly practice that are actually commanded?

Direct commands.

List please...
Why does anyone listen or respond to trolling?


Sign me a "former troll"

It's quite usual when someone has nothing of value to contribute, that they attack the person and call them a troll.

I guess you went from the frying pan right into the fire.
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« Reply #208 on: March 07, 2012, 09:14:05 AM »

Father Stephen has an article on his blog that I think addresses your concern. I've included a small clip, but the talk is a bit longer.

http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2012/02/23/the-god-who-is-no-god/
Quote
In secularized culture, religion is not eliminated – it is placed at a remove. The remove in which religion is placed is anywhere that does not matter, anywhere that does not touch our daily lives. The secular genius of the modern world (including America) was its contention that religion and belief are the same thing. The acquiescence of believers to this arrangement was, in effect, an agreement to render their faith impotent.

The fatal flaw in this agreement can be summed up simply: true religion is not a set of beliefs – it is a set of practices.

We believe in prayer – but we do not pray. We believe in forgiveness – but we do not forgive. We believe in generosity – but we do not give. We believe in truth – but we lie.
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« Reply #209 on: March 07, 2012, 09:51:47 AM »

IIRC, FP said that she knew someone IRL who is Orthodox...at least I think so.

Yes that's true, i have a friend who's almost catechumen now which initially horrified me and started my search into Orthodoxy, mostly to prove to her the idolatry involved and get her to reconsider. After a while of reading around this forum though, for whatever reason that initially brought me here, the statements of Orthodox belief presented a more personal challenge to me.

That makes sense, we appreciate your honesty... Smiley
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« Reply #210 on: March 07, 2012, 10:25:24 AM »

You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.


We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?

Christ is not only Jehovah Rapha but Jehovah Sabaoth, Jehovah Shammah, Jehovah Jireh etc...

I wouldn't single out that relationship as central.
Could you say all that again in plain English, please?

Our relationship with Christ is much more than Jesus our physician.

Jesus our provider, our peace, our protector et al. He has many names and titles no one is central.
Did anyone here say that we see Jesus only or primarily as our Physician?

The church is a hospital for sinners is stated a lot.
By whom?
By people Peter, stop being so difficult, you know it is!
Please just give direct answers to the questions asked of you. You're wandering all over the place with the answers you do give, which only makes attempts to understand you more frustrating for us and more painful for you.

Quote
I haven't read that the church is 'insert anything else' stated as often, if at all.
What sources have you read?
I've read some articles by Orthodox church hierarchy, 2 books so far, some writings of Saints and Fathers in the church and threads on here too. It's more common that the church is referred to as a hospital for sinners than anything else so far, in the limited literature i've read.
So, then, is it possible that YOU are the one overly focused on the "hospital for sinners" analogy? Wink Nobody else here made this the only or primary analogy used of the Church.
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« Reply #211 on: March 07, 2012, 10:32:46 AM »

How many rituals do you regularly practice that are actually commanded?

Direct commands.

List please...
Why does anyone listen or respond to trolling?


Sign me a "former troll"
Why do you think she's trolling?

I agree with FountainPen's reply to this one. If all you can do is accuse her of trolling, then you really do have nothing to contribute to this discussion.
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« Reply #212 on: March 07, 2012, 11:02:15 AM »

I would simply say that God demands a specific way He is to be worshipped. Why did God strike down the priests for presenting strange fire? Why set up ways for the Levite priests to worship? Why did Christ himself tell us "this is how you pray"? Why is the Book of Revelation, during the worship, so structured?

These arent empty and meaningless things that are being done. I would also submit, that every church, Orthodox, Roman, or Protestant have their own "rituals".

PP

It seems to me that many of these Protestant minimalist idea's don't really have a root in authentic Christianity. Rather they are strongly influenced by modern notions of rugged individualism and utilitarianism.

The various practices we have in Orthodox Christianity ( Ancient and Authentic Christianity) are meant to bring us into union with Christ. It includes the entire person, body, mind and soul. The minimalist approach is just about your Mind.
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« Reply #213 on: March 07, 2012, 11:04:01 AM »

I would simply say that God demands a specific way He is to be worshipped. Why did God strike down the priests for presenting strange fire? Why set up ways for the Levite priests to worship? Why did Christ himself tell us "this is how you pray"? Why is the Book of Revelation, during the worship, so structured?

These arent empty and meaningless things that are being done. I would also submit, that every church, Orthodox, Roman, or Protestant have their own "rituals".

PP

It seems to me that many of these Protestant minimalist idea's don't really have a root in authentic Christianity. Rather they are strongly influenced by modern notions of rugged individualism and utilitarianism.

The various practices we have in Orthodox Christianity ( Ancient and Authentic Christianity) are meant to bring us into union with Christ. It includes the entire person, body, mind and soul. The minimalist approach is just about your Mind.
Totally right.

PP
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« Reply #214 on: March 07, 2012, 12:09:59 PM »

How many rituals do you regularly practice that are actually commanded?

Direct commands.

List please...
Why does anyone listen or respond to trolling?


Sign me a "former troll"
Why do you think she's trolling?

I agree with FountainPen's reply to this one. If all you can do is accuse her of trolling, then you really do have nothing to contribute to this discussion.

If it has nothing to do with the discussion it is perhaps because this is NOT a discussion. Rock-throwing, baiting, defense of a new denomination as yet unnamed (but FountainPenianism seems appropriate) using Orthodoxy as the foil, but no 'discussion' as far as I can tell. Her selective answers ignoring and refusing to answer some make her the moderator of the topic. In short, a waste of time.
As to using Orthodoxy as her foil, she could use just about any other communion.
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« Reply #215 on: March 07, 2012, 12:21:16 PM »

Fountain Pen,

Having read through this whole thread, I can't help but wonder, like Shanghaiski, why you're here.  (And don't say for the same reason that I am, because you don't know why I am here).  I speculate about several possible reasons that you may be here and I'd be sincerely interested to know from you if any of them are correct:
1.  To bash Orthodoxy and organized religion in general
2.  To sway Orthodox away from the Church
3.  To be convinced, through a kind of perverse argumentative process, of the truth of Orthodoxy and/or organized religion in general
4.  To ask for help without actually coming out and asking for it
5.  To just argue for the sake of it
6.  All of the above
7.  None of the above--if so, just why *are* you here on this board, having started this thread?

Just a few thoughts.   Wink



I'm always puzzled by people demanding to know the answer to this question. It is only asked of non-Orthodox people i think. People have all kinds of motives for being on a forum and i think it's none of anyone else's business really why you, me or or anyone else does what they do. It's a forum for goodness sakes, on the innynet! #laughs

You read what i post. Choose to answer it or choose to ignore it, it's no off skin my nose!

Why i am on this forum shouldn't matter to your choice to respond to a post or not.

Okay, okay... laugh.

You kinda answered in reply #196.  Don't worry (not that there's any danger of that), why you're on this forum doesn't matter a whit to me in regards to whether I choose to respond or not to any given post.  I'm just curious (sometimes downright nosy  Grin) by nature.  I've found it difficult to follow the thread of this thread (is there one?), and then it just occurred to me that, more or less, you were either wanting to be convinced of the value and relevance of traditional Christian worship practices, or to convince others of the opposite, neither of which appears to be happening.  So, back and forth the "discussion", elusive as it is, goes.  But...what do I know?  I'm just an old Catholic who's forgotten more than he now knows  Wink.

Write on, O Fountain Pen...may your ink never dry out or smear, and your lines be clear and straight!
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« Reply #216 on: March 07, 2012, 12:30:52 PM »

You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.


We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?

Christ is not only Jehovah Rapha but Jehovah Sabaoth, Jehovah Shammah, Jehovah Jireh etc...

I wouldn't single out that relationship as central.
Could you say all that again in plain English, please?

Our relationship with Christ is much more than Jesus our physician.

Jesus our provider, our peace, our protector et al. He has many names and titles no one is central.
Did anyone here say that we see Jesus only or primarily as our Physician?

The church is a hospital for sinners is stated a lot.
By whom?
By people Peter, stop being so difficult, you know it is!
Please just give direct answers to the questions asked of you. You're wandering all over the place with the answers you do give, which only makes attempts to understand you more frustrating for us and more painful for you.

Orthodoxy - by G K Chesterton

"Enter into the Church and wash away your sins. For there is a hospital for sinners and not a court of law." - St. John Chrysostom

"A fundamental teaching of the Holy Fathers is that the Church is a "Hospital" which cures the wounded man."  - Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos

There! Three quality sources! One Saint, one hierarch from your own church and a book i'm reading about Orthodoxy.


Quote
Quote
I haven't read that the church is 'insert anything else' stated as often, if at all.
What sources have you read?
I've read some articles by Orthodox church hierarchy, 2 books so far, some writings of Saints and Fathers in the church and threads on here too. It's more common that the church is referred to as a hospital for sinners than anything else so far, in the limited literature i've read.
So, then, is it possible that YOU are the one overly focused on the "hospital for sinners" analogy? Wink Nobody else here made this the only or primary analogy used of the Church.
I know it's not the only analogy but it seems to be a primary analogy used of the church. It was brought into this thread by another poster and is described as a "fundamental teaching of the Holy Fathers" by a Metropolitan. So i would say no, i am not the only one.
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« Reply #217 on: March 07, 2012, 12:35:39 PM »

How many rituals do you regularly practice that are actually commanded?

Direct commands.

List please...
Why does anyone listen or respond to trolling?


Sign me a "former troll"
Why do you think she's trolling?

I agree with FountainPen's reply to this one. If all you can do is accuse her of trolling, then you really do have nothing to contribute to this discussion.

If it has nothing to do with the discussion it is perhaps because this is NOT a discussion.

Faulty logic.

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« Reply #218 on: March 07, 2012, 12:44:55 PM »

Worship to me is a lifestyle, so the way i worship is not something i separate out and do on a Sunday morning but it's incorporated into everything i do in life. When i wash dishes, i do it "unto The Lord", when i tend a sick relative i am worshipping God with my life. When i speak to someone about God i am worshipping and when i put out the rubbish i am worshipping also.

Our whole life is sacrifice of worship, praise and thanksgiving to God. Whatever we do in life, we do "unto The Lord". (Colossians 3:23)

This reminds me of a post from one of my favorite blogs, evlogia. It's written by an Orthodox stay-at-home mom. Blog subtitle: "Grace in the profoundly ordinary."
http://evlogiaonline.com/2012/02/19/judgment-sunday/

Just an example of an Orthodox Christian living out her life.

Delphine, thanks for your link and posts. I really like what she says about Martha "It was not in the handling of serving plates and pitchers that Martha lost sight of Christ. It is in complaining that our ears are rendered deaf to the voice of our Guest, for even amid a sink full of dishes we can find ourselves mystically planted at the feet of Christ." This is how i think of all things spiritual, incorporated into our daily lives. Seeing Christ in others as we go about our day and touching Him as we touch others with our lives.
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« Reply #219 on: March 07, 2012, 12:47:54 PM »



Orthodoxy - by G K Chesterton


There! Three quality sources! One Saint, one hierarch from your own church and a book i'm reading about Orthodoxy.


Just an FYI--Chesterton was a staunch Catholic and was not writing, per se, about the Orthodox Church.  But maybe you already knew that.  Great book, nonetheless!
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 12:49:29 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #220 on: March 07, 2012, 12:49:42 PM »

How many rituals do you regularly practice that are actually commanded?

Direct commands.

List please...
Why does anyone listen or respond to trolling?


Sign me a "former troll"
Why do you think she's trolling?

I agree with FountainPen's reply to this one. If all you can do is accuse her of trolling, then you really do have nothing to contribute to this discussion.

If it has nothing to do with the discussion it is perhaps because this is NOT a discussion.

Faulty logic.

The reason I made this comment is that it seems on these types of discussion no one moves and inch from the point that they want to prove. I may be wrong but it seems that no argument advanced in favor of "rituals" changes anyone's mind and all discussion is to prove your point or agitate other people then that is trolling. If I am wrong I apologize.


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« Reply #221 on: March 07, 2012, 12:54:36 PM »

How many rituals do you regularly practice that are actually commanded?

Direct commands.

List please...
Why does anyone listen or respond to trolling?


Sign me a "former troll"
Why do you think she's trolling?

I agree with FountainPen's reply to this one. If all you can do is accuse her of trolling, then you really do have nothing to contribute to this discussion.

If it has nothing to do with the discussion it is perhaps because this is NOT a discussion.

Faulty logic.

The reason I made this comment is that it seems on these types of discussion no one moves and inch from the point that they want to prove. I may be wrong but it seems that no argument advanced in favor of "rituals" changes anyone's mind and all discussion is to prove your point or agitate other people then that is trolling. If I am wrong I apologize.

Then do what you've been doing up until now and don't get involved.

Personally, i learn something every time i have a discussion.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 12:55:23 PM by FountainPen » Logged

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« Reply #222 on: March 07, 2012, 12:58:59 PM »

How many rituals do you regularly practice that are actually commanded?

Direct commands.

List please...
Why does anyone listen or respond to trolling?


Sign me a "former troll"
Why do you think she's trolling?

I agree with FountainPen's reply to this one. If all you can do is accuse her of trolling, then you really do have nothing to contribute to this discussion.

If it has nothing to do with the discussion it is perhaps because this is NOT a discussion.

Faulty logic.

The reason I made this comment is that it seems on these types of discussion no one moves and inch from the point that they want to prove. I may be wrong but it seems that no argument advanced in favor of "rituals" changes anyone's mind and all discussion is to prove your point or agitate other people then that is trolling. If I am wrong I apologize.

Then do what you've been doing up until now and don't get involved.

Personally, i learn something every time i have a discussion.

You are correct. Why should I bother? You still set the bounds of this so-called discussion.

You are not unknown in Christian Internet forums, you know.
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« Reply #223 on: March 07, 2012, 12:59:48 PM »



Orthodoxy - by G K Chesterton


There! Three quality sources! One Saint, one hierarch from your own church and a book i'm reading about Orthodoxy.


Just an FYI--Chesterton was a staunch Catholic and was not writing, per se, about the Orthodox Church.  But maybe you already knew that.  Great book, nonetheless!

Yes i did already know and that's partly why i chose to read it, but thank you as i might not have known given the title.
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« Reply #224 on: March 07, 2012, 01:08:25 PM »

How many rituals do you regularly practice that are actually commanded?

Direct commands.

List please...
Why does anyone listen or respond to trolling?


Sign me a "former troll"
Why do you think she's trolling?

I agree with FountainPen's reply to this one. If all you can do is accuse her of trolling, then you really do have nothing to contribute to this discussion.

If it has nothing to do with the discussion it is perhaps because this is NOT a discussion.

Faulty logic.

The reason I made this comment is that it seems on these types of discussion no one moves and inch from the point that they want to prove. I may be wrong but it seems that no argument advanced in favor of "rituals" changes anyone's mind and all discussion is to prove your point or agitate other people then that is trolling. If I am wrong I apologize.

Then do what you've been doing up until now and don't get involved.

Personally, i learn something every time i have a discussion.

You are correct. Why should I bother? You still set the bounds of this so-called discussion.

You are not unknown in Christian Internet forums, you know.

Can you please explain what you mean by that comment as i feel it might be misleading because you've intentionally left your meaning vague to slight me in some way.
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