Author Topic: Fill your life with hundreds of rituals and if you have time left, follow me!  (Read 8869 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Quote
Quote from: Ortho_Cat
Quote
Quote from: FountainPen
Where/when/by whom was the practice was first recorded?

Jesus was the first to take up his cross...we are called to follow him, and doing this reminds us of that.

We are told to take up our cross, not to perform ritualised hand movements merely to remind us of what Jesus did.

Why clog the Christian life with rituals piled high on top of one another and then to discuss how many times we're all supposed to do them or in what way we do them? Doesn't life have enough real challenges in it for you (the Church)? The world is going to hell in a handbasket while we all colours of robes, liturgies, incense and prostrations while we (the various Churches) could be discussing how we can organise ourselves to aid the current issues of drug abuse, alcoholism and promiscuity.

Good grief, that we should all fill our lives with rituals!
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline username!

  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,081
Sunday of Orthodoxy homily from oh 5 years ago the priest, Fr. Frank Miloro from the ACROD said, not verbatim mind you, that while we have all these beautiful churches and services the most precious and glorious praise and worship (outside of liturgy) we can give to God is by following the mandates Christ set out in Matthew chapter 25, if we're not doing that than all the services and prostrations we do are just empty motions.   And you know what, Fr. Frank is 100% right because he didn't create that homily, he was just repeating what Christ said in Matthew ch. 25.  Probably the best homily I have ever heard.  If you ever get a chance, catch a homily from Fr. Frank or read some of Fr. Jonathan Tobias' writings, both are Carpatho-Russian Orthodox priests.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 04:05:50 PM by username! »

Offline FormerReformer

  • Convertodox of the convertodox
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,547
    • Music and Orthodoxy
  • Faith: Convertodox
  • Jurisdiction: Netodoxy
*yawn*

I'm sorry, that broken record woke me up.

Yes, empty ritual is meaningless. Perhaps instead of pointing out what you believe to be empty ritual in another denomination, you perhaps go about having it removed from your own (I could point out many examples of empty ritual in whichever denomination you choose- Sunday church going to start with)? Or do you have a habit of going to other people's houses and complaining that the under-the-roll method of toilet paper hanging is more sanitary than the over-the-roll method?

And, of course, empty ritual is meaningless- not ritual in general. Just like in the OT the ritualistic sacrifice without obedience to go along with it meant nothing but done with obedience was something God honored, the sign of the cross or lighting a candle or the hundred of Orthodox rituals when done in the proper spirit can mean infinitely more than any number of low-church "Jesus is my co-pilot" acoustic guitar sing-alongs. Likewise, helping addicts and teaching abstinence-only sex ed to our high-school students means jack squat if not done to honor God.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
*yawn*

I'm sorry, that broken record woke me up.
Evidently not enough if your post below is anything to go by.

Quote
Yes, empty ritual is meaningless.
Ah i see, it's okay to fill our lives with ritual, so long as it is meaninful?

Quote
Perhaps instead of pointing out what you believe to be empty ritual...
I purposely didn't specify empty or meaninful because it's a false dichotomy as far as this is concerned.

Quote
...in another denomination, you perhaps go about having it removed from your own
I don't have a denomination, i don't go to a church building or belong to one.

Quote
(I could point out many examples of empty ritual in whichever denomination you choose- Sunday church going to start with)?
I'm sure you could. It's a good way of justifying what you do.

Quote
Or do you have a habit of going to other people's houses and complaining that the under-the-roll method of toilet paper hanging is more sanitary than the over-the-roll method?
No, that would be equally as mind-numbingly tedious as discussing robe colours, tones, crossing yourself and how many times you should sit and stand during a service!

Quote
And, of course, empty ritual is meaningless- not ritual in general. Just like in the OT the ritualistic sacrifice without obedience to go along with it meant nothing but done with obedience was something God honored,
Yes, and now the old has gone and the new has come.

Quote
...the sign of the cross or lighting a candle or the hundred of Orthodox rituals when done in the proper spirit can mean infinitely more than any number of low-church "Jesus is my co-pilot" acoustic guitar sing-alongs.
*yawn* Misfire.

Quote
Likewise, helping addicts and teaching abstinence-only sex ed to our high-school students means jack squat if not done to honor God.
Then do it and honour God.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,538
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
FountainPen,

I can only speak for myself, but these rituals help me, a grave sinner, to reorient my life on at least a weekly basis.  I suck.  I know I do.  I constantly find myself doing that which I do not want to do and not doing that which I want to.  These rituals help me to remember that.  If they help for but an hour before I fall again, that's an hour I spend with my mind on the Lord rather than the filth of my own mind.  Were my faith as great as yours, I would not need them. 

But I do.

Please forgive me for my weakness.
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
...these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 04:54:55 PM by William »
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
The unescapable reality I've discovered is that life IS a ritual.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
Why does doing "ritual movements" like the sign of the cross have to be put in mutual exclusion of helping drug addicts and feeding the hungry?

Besides, I would bet money that if you spent any prolonged amount of time with a drug addict, you would find that there is a lot you can actually learn from them.

...these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

You stole that quote from Somebody didn't you...

I think it fits the context of this discussion perfectly.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Life is a delight if done rite.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Online Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,046
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
I don't have a denomination, i don't go to a church building or belong to one.

Doesn't sound like Christianity to me. You're not a member of a body (or THE Body) if you don't assemble/re-member. Your version sounds like dismembrance.

Offline FormerReformer

  • Convertodox of the convertodox
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,547
    • Music and Orthodoxy
  • Faith: Convertodox
  • Jurisdiction: Netodoxy
*yawn*

I'm sorry, that broken record woke me up.
Evidently not enough if your post below is anything to go by.

Quote
Yes, empty ritual is meaningless.
Ah i see, it's okay to fill our lives with ritual, so long as it is meaninful?

Quote
Perhaps instead of pointing out what you believe to be empty ritual...
I purposely didn't specify empty or meaninful because it's a false dichotomy as far as this is concerned.

Then you apparently either don't understand "ritual" or "meaning". Plenty of rituals are commanded, even in the New Testament, and even by our Lord. I'll expand on this more at the appropriate point in your response.
...in another denomination, you perhaps go about having it removed from your own
I don't have a denomination, i don't go to a church building or belong to one.
I see. You're a homeless person complaining about how we rich folk don't really need fancy plumbing. Or roofs. Or food that doesn't come from a dumpster.


(I could point out many examples of empty ritual in whichever denomination you choose- Sunday church going to start with)?
I'm sure you could. It's a good way of justifying what you do.
i wouldn't say "justifying". I would say "pointing out a simple fact of being human". Rituals exist, not because God needs them, but because humans do. Rituals are a simple fact of human existence, and every healthy person has hundreds they go through each day- from brushing teeth at regular intervals and on. And even teeth brushing can be done to the honor of God.

Or do you have a habit of going to other people's houses and complaining that the under-the-roll method of toilet paper hanging is more sanitary than the over-the-roll method?
No, that would be equally as mind-numbingly tedious as discussing robe colours, tones, crossing yourself and how many times you should sit and stand during a service!
If you don't wish to discuss these things (or at the very least to find out why we do them, as opposed to labeling everything that seems odd "ritual", in this context a useless and judgmental word) then why post on an Orthodox web-site at all? If the only reason you are here is to judge us for discussing these things (oh no! People who are interested in Church Singing are discussing TONES! And look at those nasty music majors discussing SCALES! And how dare a guitarist discuss STRINGS!) then you might as well be coming to our house and commenting on our toilet paper roll hanging method. I hereby promote you to Chief Toilet-paper Roll Inspector Fountain Pen (abbreviated CTPRI), and as such you shall be known from here-on out (by me, anyway)!
And, of course, empty ritual is meaningless- not ritual in general. Just like in the OT the ritualistic sacrifice without obedience to go along with it meant nothing but done with obedience was something God honored,
Yes, and now the old has gone and the new has come.
And with the new has come new ritual- the Eucharist (commanded by our Lord in every Gospel but St John's, explained thoroughly in St John's Gospel, commanded again by St Paul), Baptism (commanded by our Lord, called the "new circumcision" by St Paul, etc), ordination (started by our Lord with the Apostles, done by the Apostles in the book of Acts, instructions given by St Paul), Church attendance (St Paul, traditionally, or the author of the Hebrews since tradition is a mean stupid-head who smells), and so on and so forth.

...the sign of the cross or lighting a candle or the hundred of Orthodox rituals when done in the proper spirit can mean infinitely more than any number of low-church "Jesus is my co-pilot" acoustic guitar sing-alongs.
*yawn* Misfire.
Well, let's see what we can infer by your comments so far- no ritual, Low Church, check (to the point of being No Church, as you have indicated previously in this comment). "Jesus is my co-pilot" theology, what naturally follows "absolutely no rituals, x(another ritual) is far more important" thinking, check. I'm sorry, do your sing-alongs have electric guitar? Wow, so your (insert whatever non-church meeting group [assuming you have one, and aren't just a "worshiping the Lord in the privacy of my own home" non-church person, which I would hope you are not, because the Bible says absolutely nothing about that and commands Church attendance] gathering is called here) has finally moved in to the 1990s- how progressive. Oooh, or maybe you do drum circles! Seriously, its all nice that you take our reductio ad absurdums of your hyper-low-church (henceforth known as no-Church) philosophy as somehow missing the mark of whatever you consider yourself to be, but saying things like "I am not a Protestant/I have never been to an acoustic guitar sing-along/etc" is not winning points in an argument when all you use are Protestant acoustic sing-along cliche's. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, floats on water like a duck, and flies like a duck, I am hardly going to think it is anything other than a duck, no matter how much it insists that it is, indeed, an ardvaark.
Likewise, helping addicts and teaching abstinence-only sex ed to our high-school students means jack squat if not done to honor God.
Then do it and honour God.
Ooooh, snappy. You so win. Oh, wait, helping addicts and teaching abstinence only sex ed are rituals. And the only ways you can help addicts and teach abstinence-only sex ed are by teaching rituals (prayer, cold-showers, etc).  Hmmmm, you just kind of proved my point entirely. No, nevermind. I win.

 Ah, who cares.

Score keeping is SooooooOOOOO ritualistic  ::)

EDIT: A few words added to develop and clarify a point
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 05:22:20 PM by FormerReformer »
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline stavros_388

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,313
  • Faith: Catholic
FountainPen,

I can only speak for myself, but these rituals help me, a grave sinner, to reorient my life on at least a weekly basis.  I suck.  I know I do.  I constantly find myself doing that which I do not want to do and not doing that which I want to.  These rituals help me to remember that.  If they help for but an hour before I fall again, that's an hour I spend with my mind on the Lord rather than the filth of my own mind. 

The same goes for me.

"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
*yawn*

I'm sorry, that broken record woke me up.
Evidently not enough if your post below is anything to go by.

Quote
Yes, empty ritual is meaningless.
Ah i see, it's okay to fill our lives with ritual, so long as it is meaninful?

Quote
Perhaps instead of pointing out what you believe to be empty ritual...
I purposely didn't specify empty or meaninful because it's a false dichotomy as far as this is concerned.

Then you apparently either don't understand "ritual" or "meaning". Plenty of rituals are commanded, even in the New Testament, and even by our Lord. I'll expand on this more at the appropriate point in your response.
Is crossing yourself commanded? No, i didn't think so.

Quote
...in another denomination, you perhaps go about having it removed from your own
I don't have a denomination, i don't go to a church building or belong to one.
I see. You're a homeless person complaining about how we rich folk don't really need fancy plumbing. Or roofs. Or food that doesn't come from a dumpster.
How original. A man who swings to extremes to try and make a useless point.

I'm not homeless, but if i were, i would be in good company for the Son of Man had nowhere to lay His head!

Quote

(I could point out many examples of empty ritual in whichever denomination you choose- Sunday church going to start with)?
I'm sure you could. It's a good way of justifying what you do.
i wouldn't say "justifying". I would say "pointing out a simple fact of being human". Rituals exist, not because God needs them, but because humans do. Rituals are a simple fact of human existence, and every healthy person has hundreds they go through each day- from brushing teeth at regular intervals and on. And even teeth brushing can be done to the honor of God.
Exactly and if man had his way, we would fill our lives with more and more of them, in the name of religion of course.

Quote
Or do you have a habit of going to other people's houses and complaining that the under-the-roll method of toilet paper hanging is more sanitary than the over-the-roll method?
No, that would be equally as mind-numbingly tedious as discussing robe colours, tones, crossing yourself and how many times you should sit and stand during a service!
If you don't wish to discuss these things (or at the very least to find out why we do them,
i did ask in the other thread about the origins of crossing yourself the first example of it recorded. That's how this thread started. I'm not in the habit of starting threads by making up quotes from another poster.

Quote
...as opposed to labeling everything that seems odd "ritual",
Never said it seemed odd.

Quote
why post on an Orthodox web-site at all?
Because it's Monday tomorrow.

Quote
If the only reason you are here is to judge us for discussing these things (oh no! People who are interested in Church Singing are discussing TONES! And look at those nasty music majors discussing SCALES! And how dare a guitarist discuss STRINGS!) then you might as well be coming to our house and commenting on our toilet paper roll hanging method. I hereby promote you to Chief Toilet-paper Roll Inspector Fountain Pen (abbreviated CTPRI), an as such you shall be known from here-on out (by me, anyway)!
Name calling so early in a thread Former Reformer?

Quote
And, of course, empty ritual is meaningless- not ritual in general. Just like in the OT the ritualistic sacrifice without obedience to go along with it meant nothing but done with obedience was something God honored,
Yes, and now the old has gone and the new has come.
And with the new has come new ritual- the Eucharist (commanded by our Lord in every Gospel but St John's, explained thoroughly in St John's Gospel, commanded again by St Paul), Baptism (commanded by our Lord, called the "new circumcision" by St Paul, etc), ordination (started by our Lord with the Apostles, done by the Apostles in the book of Acts, instructions given by St Paul), Church attendance (St Paul, traditionally, or the author of the Hebrews since tradition is a mean stupid-head who smells), and so on and so forth.
You're referencing things that are commanded again. Can you show me where crossing yourself is commanded?

Quote
...the sign of the cross or lighting a candle or the hundred of Orthodox rituals when done in the proper spirit can mean infinitely more than any number of low-church "Jesus is my co-pilot" acoustic guitar sing-alongs.
*yawn* Misfire.
Well, let's see what we can infer by your comments so far- no ritual, Low Church, check (to the point of being No Church, as you have indicated previously in this comment). "Jesus is my co-pilot" theology, what naturally follows "absolutely no rituals, x(another ritual) is far more important" thinking, check. I'm sorry, do your sing-alongs have electric guitar? Wow, so your (insert whatever non-church meeting group [assuming you have one, and aren't just a "worshiping the Lord in the privacy of my own home" non-church person, which I would hope you are not, because the Bible says absolutely nothing about that and commands Church attendance] gathering is called here)
I gather.

Quote
...has finally moved in to the 1990s- how progressive. Oooh, or maybe you do drum circles!
Nope

Quote
Seriously, its all nice that you take our reductio ad absurdums
You forgot the customary italics.

Quote
of your hyper-low-church (henceforth known as no-Church) as somehow missing the mark of whatever you consider yourself to be, but saying things like...
*yawn* ranting

 
Quote
"I am not a Protestant/I have never been to an acoustic guitar sing-along/etc" is not winning points in an argument when all you use are Protestant acoustic sing-along cliche's. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, floats on water like a duck, and flies like a duck,
*zzz* babbling

Quote
I am hardly going to think it is anything other than a duck, no matter how much it insists that it is, indeed, an ardvaark.
Are you done? Phew!

Quote
Likewise, helping addicts and teaching abstinence-only sex ed to our high-school students means jack squat if not done to honor God.
Then do it and honour God.
Ooooh, snappy. You so win. Oh, wait, helping addicts and teaching abstinence only sex ed are rituals. And the only ways you can help addicts and teach abstinence-only sex ed are by teaching rituals (prayer, cold-showers, etc).  Hmmmm, you just kind of proved my point entirely. No, nevermind. I win.

Ah, who cares.
Apparently you do given how much you have to say.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
I don't have a denomination, i don't go to a church building or belong to one.

Doesn't sound like Christianity to me. You're not a member of a body (or THE Body) if you don't assemble/re-member. Your version sounds like dismembrance.

I'm passed caring what it sounds like to other people.

I gather.

I am part of The Body.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Why does doing "ritual movements" like the sign of the cross have to be put in mutual exclusion of helping drug addicts and feeding the hungry?


It doesn't. But if you fill your time and thoughts with more and more of them, then you're not spending that time thinking about and acting on what we are commanded to do -- re:The Great Commission
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
FountainPen,

I can only speak for myself, but these rituals help me, a grave sinner, to reorient my life on at least a weekly basis.  I suck.  I know I do.  I constantly find myself doing that which I do not want to do and not doing that which I want to.  These rituals help me to remember that.  If they help for but an hour before I fall again, that's an hour I spend with my mind on the Lord rather than the filth of my own mind.  Were my faith as great as yours, I would not need them. 

But I do.

Please forgive me for my weakness.

False humility doesn't suit you Schultz. Maybe you should get your mind off yourself then you wouldn't need all your rituals.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
Why does doing "ritual movements" like the sign of the cross have to be put in mutual exclusion of helping drug addicts and feeding the hungry?
It doesn't. But if you fill your time and thoughts with more and more of them, then you're not spending that time thinking about and acting on what we are commanded to do -- re:The Great Commission

So now it's in mutual exclusion to making disciples and baptizing (a ritual)?
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Online Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,046
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
I'm passed caring what it sounds like to other people.

I gather.

I am part of The Body.

When hands are cut-off they are thrown into the flames. Or fed to the trolls as chum.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 05:59:49 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
I'm passed caring what it sounds like to other people.

I gather.

I am part of The Body.

When hands are cut-off they are thrown into the flames. Or fed to the trolls as chum.
I am no more "cut off" from the rest of the body than your OOs are from your EOs  ;)
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Why does doing "ritual movements" like the sign of the cross have to be put in mutual exclusion of helping drug addicts and feeding the hungry?
It doesn't. But if you fill your time and thoughts with more and more of them, then you're not spending that time thinking about and acting on what we are commanded to do -- re:The Great Commission

So now it's in mutual exclusion to making disciples and baptizing (a ritual)?

What "it"? Be specific.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline Delphine

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
Why does doing "ritual movements" like the sign of the cross have to be put in mutual exclusion of helping drug addicts and feeding the hungry?


It doesn't. But if you fill your time and thoughts with more and more of them, then you're not spending that time thinking about and acting on what we are commanded to do -- re:The Great Commission

To me, making the sign of the cross helps me to focus my thoughts on Jesus Christ as I'm going about my life. It's not exclusively about His death. So wouldn't keeping my mind on Christ also help me to remember the Great Commission?

How do you feel about wearing a cross around your neck? That's another example of using the cross to remember Christ.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 06:06:53 PM by Delphine »

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
How many rituals do you regularly practice that are actually commanded?

Direct commands.

List please...
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Why does doing "ritual movements" like the sign of the cross have to be put in mutual exclusion of helping drug addicts and feeding the hungry?


It doesn't. But if you fill your time and thoughts with more and more of them, then you're not spending that time thinking about and acting on what we are commanded to do -- re:The Great Commission

To me, making the sign of the cross helps me to focus my thoughts on Jesus Christ as I'm going about my life. It's not exclusively about His death. So wouldn't keeping Christ on my mind also remind me of the Great Commission?

How do you feel about wearing a cross around your neck? That's another example of using the cross to remember Christ.

Every person we meet in life is a reminder of Christ. It's the only reminder we need.

Doesn't Orthodoxy teach that everone is a reflection of the image of God? Or something similar (I don't think i have that entirely correct)

No i don't wear a cross.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 06:09:31 PM by FountainPen »
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
All of them. Christ speaks to us through more than the pages of the one book you limit Him to.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,538
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
FountainPen,

I can only speak for myself, but these rituals help me, a grave sinner, to reorient my life on at least a weekly basis.  I suck.  I know I do.  I constantly find myself doing that which I do not want to do and not doing that which I want to.  These rituals help me to remember that.  If they help for but an hour before I fall again, that's an hour I spend with my mind on the Lord rather than the filth of my own mind.  Were my faith as great as yours, I would not need them. 

But I do.

Please forgive me for my weakness.

False humility doesn't suit you Schultz. Maybe you should get your mind off yourself then you wouldn't need all your rituals.

Nothing false about it, I'm sad to say.  

But thank you for exhibiting your clairvoyance.  It's another example of your spiritual advancement that you can read my heart.

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
All of them. Christ speaks to us through more than the pages of the one book you limit Him to.

I don't limit him to one book.

Christ is The Word. He is a person able to communicate however he wishes.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 06:15:22 PM by FountainPen »
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
FountainPen,

I can only speak for myself, but these rituals help me, a grave sinner, to reorient my life on at least a weekly basis.  I suck.  I know I do.  I constantly find myself doing that which I do not want to do and not doing that which I want to.  These rituals help me to remember that.  If they help for but an hour before I fall again, that's an hour I spend with my mind on the Lord rather than the filth of my own mind.  Were my faith as great as yours, I would not need them.  

But I do.

Please forgive me for my weakness.

False humility doesn't suit you Schultz. Maybe you should get your mind off yourself then you wouldn't need all your rituals.

Nothing false about it, I'm sad to say.  

But thank you for exhibiting your clairvoyance.  It's another example of your spiritual advancement that you can read my heart.



I don't need to read your heart, your own words suffice which i emboldened. People aren't usually sarcastic when they are being genuinely humble. If you can't own your own words honestly, then that's your problem sadly, not mine.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 06:31:42 PM by FountainPen »
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
Why does doing "ritual movements" like the sign of the cross have to be put in mutual exclusion of helping drug addicts and feeding the hungry?
It doesn't. But if you fill your time and thoughts with more and more of them, then you're not spending that time thinking about and acting on what we are commanded to do -- re:The Great Commission
So now it's in mutual exclusion to making disciples and baptizing (a ritual)?
What "it"? Be specific.

Ritual in general. Crossing oneself, vestments, having a form used for conducting regular prayer services and celebrations of the sacraments, having buildings set aside for the purpose of conducting worship as a local church community, etc. Everything you are condemning and setting in opposition to doing things like helping those in need (which you just admitted aren't in mutual exclusion of each other) and now fulfilling the great commission which is to make disciples by baptizing (a ritual in itself) them and teaching them to do what Christ commanded (not to leave the other undone).

You're making "either/or"s out of "both/and"s.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Why does doing "ritual movements" like the sign of the cross have to be put in mutual exclusion of helping drug addicts and feeding the hungry?
It doesn't. But if you fill your time and thoughts with more and more of them, then you're not spending that time thinking about and acting on what we are commanded to do -- re:The Great Commission
So now it's in mutual exclusion to making disciples and baptizing (a ritual)?
What "it"? Be specific.

Ritual in general. Crossing oneself, vestments, having a form used for conducting regular prayer services and celebrations of the sacraments, having buildings set aside for the purpose of conducting worship as a local church community, etc. Everything you are condemning and setting in opposition to doing things like helping those in need (which you just admitted aren't in mutual exclusion of each other) and now fulfilling the great commission which is to make disciples by baptizing (a ritual in itself) them and teaching them to do what Christ commanded (not to leave the other undone).

You're making "either/or"s out of "both/and"s.

Can you list only those commanded? Or i should say, will you?
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline Delphine

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
Why does doing "ritual movements" like the sign of the cross have to be put in mutual exclusion of helping drug addicts and feeding the hungry?


It doesn't. But if you fill your time and thoughts with more and more of them, then you're not spending that time thinking about and acting on what we are commanded to do -- re:The Great Commission

To me, making the sign of the cross helps me to focus my thoughts on Jesus Christ as I'm going about my life. It's not exclusively about His death. So wouldn't keeping Christ on my mind also remind me of the Great Commission?

How do you feel about wearing a cross around your neck? That's another example of using the cross to remember Christ.

Every person we meet in life is a reminder of Christ. It's the only reminder we need.

Doesn't Orthodoxy teach that everone is a reflection of the image of God? Or something similar (I don't think i have that entirely correct)

No i don't wear a cross.

I agree that every human being is a reminder of Christ. But do I think of that whenever I see someone? No, unfortunately. So I need other aids. If there are multiple aids, rituals, reminders that I can use to help set my mind on Christ, I don't see how it could be a bad thing.

I do think that a person can try to implement too many rituals at once, leaving them overwhelmed and preoccupied with steps, rather than setting their heart on Christ like the ritual is intended for. The ritual is then a hindrance, rather than an aid. But I think it varies from person to person where that line is.

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
How many rituals do you regularly practice that are actually commanded?

Direct commands.

List please...

For starters we are commanded to baptize, have Communion, the apostles were given the authority (in John) and acted on that authority (1 and 2 Corinthians) to forgive men their sins in His name, Acts records the apostles and their disciples as keeping the hours of prayer, and also the apostles giving the gift of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands to those who had been baptized but had not received it yet. Those given the authority as bishops, presbyters, and deacons in the Church only received that authority either directly from an apostle or someone apointed by the apostles to do so. And this is just what is directly done in the NT, without even touching the continued use of vestments or allowance for a building set aside for worship as found in the OT.

This is liturgical worship based in the sacraments and hours of prayer under the oversight of someone appointed to preside over these rituals by someone with the proper authority. It is both commanded and done in the NT.

Just a reminder, none of this is to the exclusion of fulfilling the commands to love your neighbor and help those in need.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 06:40:06 PM by Melodist »
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline FormerReformer

  • Convertodox of the convertodox
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,547
    • Music and Orthodoxy
  • Faith: Convertodox
  • Jurisdiction: Netodoxy
In the interests of avoiding "I quoted/you quoted-quote list longer than the actual post" syndrome, I hope no one minds if I redact the back and forth a little.

Is crossing yourself commanded? No, i didn't think so.
Well, we (that is the Orthodox posters) could certainly point out certain verses that could be interpreted that way (as happened on the original thread you were on).
Quote
How original. A man who swings to extremes to try and make a useless point.
I didn't realize it was extremism to use analogy.
Quote
I'm not homeless, but if i were, i would be in good company for the Son of Man had nowhere to lay His head!
Would that were the type of homelessness of which I speak. The Son of Man had nowhere to lay His, but He left to prepare a mansion, of which the earthly Church is the visible foundation.

Quote
Exactly and if man had his way, we would fill our lives with more and more of them, in the name of religion of course.
Which is why threads such as the one you had previously posted in can be a good thing, if seen in the proper light. Crossing oneself for a reason is a good thing, crossing oneself just because someone else in the parish thinks you should have is bad. Just like eating and drinking Communion for the wrong purposes can lead to damnation and death.

Quote
i did ask in the other thread about the origins of crossing yourself the first example of it recorded. That's how this thread started. I'm not in the habit of starting threads by making up quotes from another poster.
And yet you did not engage the discussion that followed your question, but instead started a thread blasting "ritual". William answered your question- Tertullian mentioned it in the 2nd century, stated it was part of the Apostolic oral teaching, and it was such an extremely wide-spread practice at that time that he considered it a fair example of the type of Apostolic oral teaching that cannot be found in Scripture that his opponents argued against. Heretics always want to keep the discussion centered on "Scripture alone" (please note- that does not label you or anyone else as a heretic, it is just an observation that every heretical group- groups that any Trinitarian Christian could consider heretical- has appealed to Scripture and argued against the introduction of so much as a single word not found in Scripture).

Quote
Never said it seemed odd.
Okay, but were it common place you would never think to comment.
why post on an Orthodox web-site at all?
Because it's Monday tomorrow.
ROFL  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: That is perhaps the best reason I have heard in the history of the internet.

Quote
Name calling so early in a thread Former Reformer?
You call it "name-calling", I call it "assigning a title to go with your promotion", Chief TPRI Fountain Pen, ma'am.

Quote
You're referencing things that are commanded again. Can you show me where crossing yourself is commanded?
Mark 8:34-35 (NIV) Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it." We can argue as to whether or not this meant using the sign of the cross, but the Apostles thought the practice important enough to pass on.

Quote
You forgot the customary italics.
That I did. I have a grandfather demanding his dinner (I'm not starving him, he's just impatient- the other night we took him to a restaurant and he started pounding his fork on the table calling for his food less than five minutes after the waitress walked away), it's kind of hard to pay special attention to the coding. I'm amazed I kept the quote tags straight.


Ah, who cares.
Apparently you do given how much you have to say.


Awww, how cute- you took a little phrase completely out of context and made a snappy rejoinder based off it that is a complete non sequitur! And you say you're not a Protestant....
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 06:39:23 PM by FormerReformer »
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,801
I am sorry, but people are not born with the knowledge of what is right and wrong.  About the only instinct that a baby is born with is to suck on an pap, and some are to stupid to do that without some effort expended (I have seen that myself).  The rituals are NOT in place of fulfilling the command of God.  They are an aid to TEACHING one how to fulfill the commands of God.  Keep in mind that many of the Church's rituals predate universal literacy, and far predate the invention of the printing press.  They were never intended to supercede the example given by Christ, but to instruct people to know Christ and follow His example.  Have some become meaningless?  Sadly, for many they have.  However, the Fathers teach us that we gain the Grace to perform the virtues by practicing them.  One thing that we all can do is pray.  Not all of us have riches to give, or even good words to give.  However, by practicing the rituals of the Church WHILE KEEPING MINDFUL OF WHAT THEY MEAN, we can channel the Grace of God into us that will allow us to do those things of which the OP speaks.  Fountain Pen, believe me, I know how you feel and I fight that battle over and over again.  I am fighting it now.  For me, and this does not mean that it is for everyone, practicing some of the rituals focus my mind on the things that I should be doing.  I am weak and often need this.  Not everyone does.

BTW - on a lighter note, I love writing with fountain pens.  They are all that I use.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
Quote
Quote from: Ortho_Cat
Quote
Quote from: FountainPen
Where/when/by whom was the practice was first recorded?

Jesus was the first to take up his cross...we are called to follow him, and doing this reminds us of that.

We are told to take up our cross, not to perform ritualised hand movements merely to remind us of what Jesus did.

Why clog the Christian life with rituals piled high on top of one another and then to discuss how many times we're all supposed to do them or in what way we do them? Doesn't life have enough real challenges in it for you (the Church)? The world is going to hell in a handbasket while we all colours of robes, liturgies, incense and prostrations while we (the various Churches) could be discussing how we can organise ourselves to aid the current issues of drug abuse, alcoholism and promiscuity.

Good grief, that we should all fill our lives with rituals!

from this perpective, why even go to church at all? Why have baptism or communion services? Aren't they all just rituals? Shouldn't we just be out helping the poor and working towards world peace?

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Why does doing "ritual movements" like the sign of the cross have to be put in mutual exclusion of helping drug addicts and feeding the hungry?


It doesn't. But if you fill your time and thoughts with more and more of them, then you're not spending that time thinking about and acting on what we are commanded to do -- re:The Great Commission

To me, making the sign of the cross helps me to focus my thoughts on Jesus Christ as I'm going about my life. It's not exclusively about His death. So wouldn't keeping Christ on my mind also remind me of the Great Commission?

How do you feel about wearing a cross around your neck? That's another example of using the cross to remember Christ.

Every person we meet in life is a reminder of Christ. It's the only reminder we need.

Doesn't Orthodoxy teach that everone is a reflection of the image of God? Or something similar (I don't think i have that entirely correct)

No i don't wear a cross.

I agree that every human being is a reminder of Christ. But do I think of that whenever I see someone? No, unfortunately.
Delphine, do you think it's only because you are practiced in thinking of Christ when you see other things like crosses and icons etc? The moment you see a cross you think of Christ, so do i, it's a standard form of identification for Christians.

Quote
So I need other aids. If there are multiple aids, rituals, reminders that I can use to help set my mind on Christ, I don't see how it could be a bad thing.
This is how i see that it could be a bad thing.

If i am walking along repeating (all or partof) the Jesus prayer to myself, i am not looking outward on the people i am passing because my mind is occupied. Instead of being ready for the moment that an opportiunity to speak or help arises and having an expectation that it will, i am concentrating on my internal dialogue.

Quote
I do think that a person can try to implement too many rituals at once, leaving them overwhelmed and preoccupied with steps, rather than setting their heart on Christ like the ritual is intended for. The ritual is then a hindrance, rather than an aid. But I think it varies from person to person where that line is.
Yes, and i'm not advocating being ritual free -- if indeed that were even possible -- but possibly staying with only those that are direct commands from God to do. Not adding many more to life.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
practicing some of the rituals focus my mind on the things that I should be doing.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with someone last week.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Quote
Quote from: Ortho_Cat
Quote
Quote from: FountainPen
Where/when/by whom was the practice was first recorded?

Jesus was the first to take up his cross...we are called to follow him, and doing this reminds us of that.

We are told to take up our cross, not to perform ritualised hand movements merely to remind us of what Jesus did.

Why clog the Christian life with rituals piled high on top of one another and then to discuss how many times we're all supposed to do them or in what way we do them? Doesn't life have enough real challenges in it for you (the Church)? The world is going to hell in a handbasket while we all colours of robes, liturgies, incense and prostrations while we (the various Churches) could be discussing how we can organise ourselves to aid the current issues of drug abuse, alcoholism and promiscuity.

Good grief, that we should all fill our lives with rituals!

from this perpective, why even go to church at all? Why have baptism or communion services? Aren't they all just rituals? Shouldn't we just be out helping the poor and working towards world peace?

Some are commands; many are not.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
FountainPen, when you're done projecting onto us the image you would like to have of us, do you promise to actually listen to us as we explain our point of view to you?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,375
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek

This thread
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 06:53:09 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
All of them. Christ speaks to us through more than the pages of the one book you limit Him to.

I don't limit him to one book.

Christ is The Word. He is a person able to communicate however he wishes.

The Orthodox believe that He speaks to them through the various aspects of the Church (tradition in the case of the Sign of the Cross) and commands we follow the various liturgical acts and rites in that way.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Quote
Former Reformer
Quote
FountainPen - I did ask in the other thread about the origins of crossing yourself the first example of it recorded. That's how this thread started. I'm not in the habit of starting threads by making up quotes from another poster.
And yet you did not engage the discussion that followed your question,
I couldn't, it's against forum rules. You wouldn't want me to get banned now would you?


None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
FountainPen, when you're done projecting onto us the image you would like to have of us, do you promise to actually listen to us as we explain our point of view to you?


That's the second time you've asked me this and yet you don't follow through with anything to say!

Do you have nothing to say?
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,375
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
All of them. Christ speaks to us through more than the pages of the one book you limit Him to.

I don't limit him to one book.

Christ is The Word. He is a person able to communicate however he wishes.

The Orthodox believe that He speaks to them through the various aspects of the Church (tradition in the case of the Sign of the Cross) and commands we follow the various liturgical acts and rites in that way.
"Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline akimori makoto

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,126
  • No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...
Priest: Then, when he had come and fulfilled the whole of the divine dispensation for us, on the night that he was given up, or, rather, gave himself up for the life of the world, he took bread in his holy, pure and blameless hands and, when he had blessed it, hallowed it and broken it, he gave it to his disciples saying "take, eat, this is my body, which is broken for you for the remission of sins".

People: Amen.

Priest: In like manner, when the supper was ended, he took the cup and gave it to his disciples saying "drink of this, all of you, this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for you and for many for the remission of sins".

People: Amen.

Priest: Remembering, therefore, this our Saviour's command, and everything that has come to pass for us: the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting at the right hand and the second and glorious coming again -- your own of your own, we offer unto you, on behalf of all and for all.

----------------------------------------------

Where's the problem?
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
All of them. Christ speaks to us through more than the pages of the one book you limit Him to.

I don't limit him to one book.

Christ is The Word. He is a person able to communicate however he wishes.

The Orthodox believe that He speaks to them through the various aspects of the Church (tradition in the case of the Sign of the Cross) and commands we follow the various liturgical acts and rites in that way.
"Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."

I don't get your point. You agree that a Sola Scriptura approach to determining liturgical practice is wrong, right?
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
FountainPen, when you're done projecting onto us the image you would like to have of us, do you promise to actually listen to us as we explain our point of view to you?


That's the second time you've asked me this and yet you don't follow through with anything to say!

Do you have nothing to say?
Why must I follow it up with something to say? What about everyone else? I notice that you don't listen to them.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,375
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
All of them. Christ speaks to us through more than the pages of the one book you limit Him to.

I don't limit him to one book.

Christ is The Word. He is a person able to communicate however he wishes.

The Orthodox believe that He speaks to them through the various aspects of the Church (tradition in the case of the Sign of the Cross) and commands we follow the various liturgical acts and rites in that way.
"Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."

I don't get your point. You agree that a Sola Scriptura approach to determining liturgical practice is wrong, right?

Responding to FP's saying that Christ is the Word and is not limited by the Scriptures, with "well, we believe he talks to us this way, so there!" doesn't really address any points.
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline Delphine

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
I agree that every human being is a reminder of Christ. But do I think of that whenever I see someone? No, unfortunately.
Delphine, do you think it's only because you are practiced in thinking of Christ when you see other things like crosses and icons etc? The moment you see a cross you think of Christ, so do i, it's a standard form of identification for Christians.
Yes, definitely. It's because I learned to associate them with Christ that they help me. But while I've been taught to remember that man was made in God's image every time I look at someone, I've also learned to associate people with other things that have nothing to do with God. That mix of associations makes it more difficult to be mindful. The sign of the cross doesn't have that problem for me.

Quote
Quote
So I need other aids. If there are multiple aids, rituals, reminders that I can use to help set my mind on Christ, I don't see how it could be a bad thing.
This is how i see that it could be a bad thing.

If i am walking along repeating (all or partof) the Jesus prayer to myself, i am not looking outward on the people i am passing because my mind is occupied. Instead of being ready for the moment that an opportiunity to speak or help arises and having an expectation that it will, i am concentrating on my internal dialogue.

I go to an Orthodox catechism class once a week, and the priest is always thumbing a prayer rope as we talk. I never feel like he isn't present for our conversations, although I don't think I'd be capable of managing that myself! I do often feel like I need to say a quick prayer before speaking to someone, though, and it helps me in speaking with them.

Quote
Quote
I do think that a person can try to implement too many rituals at once, leaving them overwhelmed and preoccupied with steps, rather than setting their heart on Christ like the ritual is intended for. The ritual is then a hindrance, rather than an aid. But I think it varies from person to person where that line is.
Yes, and i'm not advocating being ritual free -- if indeed that were even possible -- but possibly staying with only those that are direct commands from God to do. Not adding many more to life.

If the direct Biblical commands are all you need to be mindful, then this sounds fine. But the sign of the cross is simple enough for me to keep, serves as a meaningful reminder, and with all of the other non-Biblical habits in my life (brushing my teeth, getting up when my alarm goes off, etc.), I think that adding one that is all about God makes a great addition.

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
FountainPen, when you're done projecting onto us the image you would like to have of us, do you promise to actually listen to us as we explain our point of view to you?


That's the second time you've asked me this and yet you don't follow through with anything to say!

Do you have nothing to say?
Why must I follow it up with something to say? What about everyone else? I notice that you don't listen to them.

#laughs

You mean the childish banter level? No i'm not listening, correct.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
All of them. Christ speaks to us through more than the pages of the one book you limit Him to.

I don't limit him to one book.

Christ is The Word. He is a person able to communicate however he wishes.

The Orthodox believe that He speaks to them through the various aspects of the Church (tradition in the case of the Sign of the Cross) and commands we follow the various liturgical acts and rites in that way.
"Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."

I don't get your point. You agree that a Sola Scriptura approach to determining liturgical practice is wrong, right?

Responding to FP's saying that Christ is the Word and is not limited by the Scriptures, with "well, we believe he talks to us this way, so there!" doesn't really address any points.

Doesn't it? FP is alleging that we aren't commanded to do most of Orthodoxy's liturgical practices. From an Orthodox POV we are.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Nicene

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 625
It seems the underlying assumption is that rituals in no way benefit us, why is that ritiuals can in no way benefit us? I must have missed reading that in scripture...
Thank you.

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
FountainPen, when you're done projecting onto us the image you would like to have of us, do you promise to actually listen to us as we explain our point of view to you?


That's the second time you've asked me this and yet you don't follow through with anything to say!

Do you have nothing to say?
Why must I follow it up with something to say? What about everyone else? I notice that you don't listen to them.

#laughs

You mean the childish banter level? No i'm not listening, correct.
So you submit a post long on the irrationality I've seen only in children and short on the intelligent thoughtfulness I would expect from an adult, and when others reply to your post with the same level of childish irrationality your post displays, you dismiss them? ???

"Not Listening"
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 07:27:03 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline quietmorning

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,415
  • St. Photini
    • Whispers Written - a friends only journal - pm to be added.
error. 
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 07:27:35 PM by quietmorning »
In His Mercy,
BethAnna

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Quote
Quote
I do think that a person can try to implement too many rituals at once, leaving them overwhelmed and preoccupied with steps, rather than setting their heart on Christ like the ritual is intended for. The ritual is then a hindrance, rather than an aid. But I think it varies from person to person where that line is.
Yes, and i'm not advocating being ritual free -- if indeed that were even possible -- but possibly staying with only those that are direct commands from God to do. Not adding many more to life.

If the direct Biblical commands are all you need to be mindful, then this sounds fine. But the sign of the cross is simple enough for me to keep, serves as a meaningful reminder, and with all of the other non-Biblical habits in my life (brushing my teeth, getting up when my alarm goes off, etc.), I think that adding one that is all about God makes a great addition.

I agree.

If only it stopped at adding one though Delphine.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline ignatius

  • Baptacathadox
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,696
  • My Son Aidan... :-)
Grace and Peace be to you all,

As a Jew, Our Lord Jesus, followed Ritual Prayers throughout the day as did his Disciples. Our Lord Jesus, followed Ritual Baptism at the hands of St. John the Baptist. Only in the minds of Enlightenment Reformers have a religious life complete with rituals become a dirty word. It all points back to their misunderstanding of St. Paul's criticism of the Law. They have lumped 'everything' into that term to the point that the West literally has no religion at all.

Personally, I don't like taking criticism from Westerners who has done such a good job of destroying the religious practices of the West. I find that shocking to say the least.

The deconstruction of Christianity at the hands of enlightenment/reformers is simply something that I want nothing to do with.

I'm sorry if my post offends anyone here in dialogue with the Orthodox Brothers and Sisters on this Forum... I just felt moved to post. Pardon me if I come across as unfriendly or unfair. It is not my intent.
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
It seems the underlying assumption is that rituals in no way benefit us, why is that ritiuals can in no way benefit us? I must have missed reading that in scripture...

Her assertion isn't that they don't benefit us, but that they prevent us from performing other things that we are commanded to do. I apologize if i am misrepresenting her, but this is the impression that I get from the OP.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline FormerReformer

  • Convertodox of the convertodox
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,547
    • Music and Orthodoxy
  • Faith: Convertodox
  • Jurisdiction: Netodoxy
Quote
Former Reformer
Quote
FountainPen - I did ask in the other thread about the origins of crossing yourself the first example of it recorded. That's how this thread started. I'm not in the habit of starting threads by making up quotes from another poster.
And yet you did not engage the discussion that followed your question,
I couldn't, it's against forum rules. You wouldn't want me to get banned now would you?




How would you get banned? You aren't on any moderation status, there's not so much as a warning symbol next to your name. In the few years I have been here, I have yet to see anyone get banned without these- and even then you'd be muted for an increasing number of days long before you would be banned, unless Fr Chris has drastically changed the way things are done around here. The only reason I could think of that the mods would ban you, right this instant, would be if they discovered that you really are a sock-puppet of Alfred Persson in drag (not saying you are, understand).

I have yet to see the mods moderate anyone for answering a reply to their own question on a thread- and given that the particular thread in question would actually be a perfect venue to ask questions about the value of ritual versus non-value (seeing as how the thread basically boiled down to: crossing oneself is a good thing when done for proper reasons, pure ritualism when done just because someone at your parish is a busybody) I doubt there would have been any moderation at all, save perhaps one of those "A reminder, CTPRI Fountain Pen: The Liturgy section is intended for Orthodox posters, etc" then give you a warning. Certainly, if your whole reason for starting this thread was to get clarification on the historic/Apostolic teaching reasons for things like crossing oneself, you took the wrong approach by stating "Good grief! That we should fill our lives with rituals!" and missed out on a piece of information directly related to your query regarding the first recorded (in surviving writings) reference to the sign of the cross.

Indeed, a good illustration of needless pharisaism- while you followed forum rules to the letter (regarding non-Orthodox posters derailing threads in the non "insert faith here"/Orthodox discussion forums") you certainly violated the spirit of discussion- what could have been a fruitful and informative discussion has basically been you starting out with an inflammatory post and then jumping to the "Oh, woe is me, I'm a persecuted non-Orthodox poster!" cant when posters here defend their point of view. I don't mind debate- I understand most non-Orthodox objections to many Orthodox practices, and not all that long ago might have been making similar posts to yours (indeed, I remember a point where I thought RCs were silly for eating fish on Fridays during Lent!)- but there isn't a whole lot of point to starting out a conversation with "Good grief! What you do is incredibly silly!"
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline Nicene

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 625
It seems the underlying assumption is that rituals in no way benefit us, why is that ritiuals can in no way benefit us? I must have missed reading that in scripture...

Her assertion isn't that they don't benefit us, but that they prevent us from performing other things that we are commanded to do. I apologize if i am misrepresenting her, but this is the impression that I get from the OP.

Does she think the orthodox life is one of ritual for everything they do which cannot involve preaching, teaching, caring for others in society that need help? I've thought since believing in the church one can easily accomplish both. It would seem that those whom follow this anti Ritualistic trend need to learn how to worship God more from Orthodoxy and not complain that they worship God too much.
Thank you.

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,375
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
If only it stopped at adding one though Delphine.
Can't have too much of a good thang, darlin'.

We humans get along okay with having to remember all those tricky, complex and monotonous processes like breathing, circulating blood, moving our limbs in sleep, blinking, etc.

I think we can handle a few movements and practices without becoming isolated, pharisaical zomboids.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 07:35:51 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
FountainPen, when you're done projecting onto us the image you would like to have of us, do you promise to actually listen to us as we explain our point of view to you?


That's the second time you've asked me this and yet you don't follow through with anything to say!

Do you have nothing to say?
Why must I follow it up with something to say? What about everyone else? I notice that you don't listen to them.

#laughs

You mean the childish banter level? No i'm not listening, correct.
So you submit a post long on the irrationality I've seen only in children and short on the intelligent thoughtfulness I would expect from an adult, and when others reply to your post with the same level of childish irrationality your post displays, you dismiss them? ???

"Not Listening"

Aww and i thought you of all people would relate to my post given that i've read equal ratios of irrationality vs intelligent thoughtfulness in many of yours.



None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
It seems the underlying assumption is that rituals in no way benefit us, why is that ritiuals can in no way benefit us? I must have missed reading that in scripture...

Her assertion isn't that they don't benefit us, but that they prevent us from performing other things that we are commanded to do. I apologize if i am misrepresenting her, but this is the impression that I get from the OP.

Does she think the orthodox life is one of ritual for everything they do which cannot involve preaching, teaching, caring for others in society that need help? I've thought since believing in the church one can easily accomplish both. It would seem that those whom follow this anti Ritualistic trend need to learn how to worship God more from Orthodoxy and not complain that they worship God too much.

Is this behaviour, worship!? Is it people magnetic or people repellent? Is it inclusive or isolationist? Is it about ourselves and what benefits us or is it about dying to self? Just a few quick questions. /wink
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline ignatius

  • Baptacathadox
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,696
  • My Son Aidan... :-)
It seems the underlying assumption is that rituals in no way benefit us, why is that ritiuals can in no way benefit us? I must have missed reading that in scripture...

Her assertion isn't that they don't benefit us, but that they prevent us from performing other things that we are commanded to do. I apologize if i am misrepresenting her, but this is the impression that I get from the OP.

Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be given you...

I don't think our faith is simply about social services... that is suppose to be the by product of our love of God and Neighbor. Our faith is suppose to 'order our lives' in union with the divine and out of that good works come forth. St. Paul said to 'pray always...' and so we seek to fulfill that command.

We also know that we don't know how we ought to pray and so we pray in union with the Holy Tradition of the Church throughout the ages. We pray as the Saints pray... their words become our words... their gestures become our gestures. We right ourselves through and in their righteousness as they did themselves through Christ. What I find most beautiful in the gesture of crossing ourselves is that we not only make an inward sign but one outward as well.

On my way to liturgy this morning my daughter, son and I passed a house with many police cars in front. The police has riot shields and the cars were blocking the road in front of the house. I made the sign of the cross, and said "Lord Have Mercy". My daughter saw this and we too made it a moment to recognize God in our life at that moment. It is an outward sign that gives presence to the divine. It allows the divine to enter into our lives and the lives of those around us. Our faith is a lived faith and my one of our minds but also of our bodies and lives and actions and these acts of recognition enters into the lives of those around us. Grace begets Grace... the divine outpouring flows from our acts into mundane and seizes it without words. It is His work... and not the acts of our minds or philosophies. It is His work.
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
If only it stopped at adding one though Delphine.
Can't have too much of a good thang, darlin'.

We humans get along okay with having to remember all those tricky, complex and monotonous processes like breathing, circulating blood, moving our limbs in sleep, blinking, etc.

I think we can handle a few movements and practices without becoming isolated, pharisaical zomboids.

Given just how many people aren't even aware of the existence of Orthodoxy, i'd say the message aint' gettin' out there too well shweetie.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline akimori makoto

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,126
  • No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...
Priest: Then, when he had come and fulfilled the whole of the divine dispensation for us, on the night that he was given up, or, rather, gave himself up for the life of the world, he took bread in his holy, pure and blameless hands and, when he had blessed it, hallowed it and broken it, he gave it to his disciples saying "take, eat, this is my body, which is broken for you for the remission of sins".

People: Amen.

Priest: In like manner, when the supper was ended, he took the cup and gave it to his disciples saying "drink of this, all of you, this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for you and for many for the remission of sins".

People: Amen.

Priest: Remembering, therefore, this our Saviour's command, and everything that has come to pass for us: the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting at the right hand and the second and glorious coming again -- your own of your own, we offer unto you, on behalf of all and for all.

----------------------------------------------

Where's the problem?

FountainPen, so I can understand you better, can you please explain what part of the above is objectionable?

Please feel free to include the "ritual actions" that accompany the words in your criticisms, but please let's just stick to those for now.

I think if we dialogue in this way, taking a limited slice of liturgical life as our focal point, we can arrive at some mutual understanding.

Empty ritualism v. liturgical chaos is too unwieldy a theme.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline Nicene

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 625


Is this behaviour, worship!? Is it people magnetic or people repellent? Is it inclusive or isolationist? Is it about ourselves and what benefits us or is it about dying to self? Just a few quick questions. /wink

I don't see how it could be anything other than worship, personal reminder and aides along life to keep us from temptation. But obviously to you the orthodox way of things fits into the latter categories. Though on that last one I think it is both.
Thank you.

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Quote
Former Reformer
Quote
FountainPen - I did ask in the other thread about the origins of crossing yourself the first example of it recorded. That's how this thread started. I'm not in the habit of starting threads by making up quotes from another poster.
And yet you did not engage the discussion that followed your question,
I couldn't, it's against forum rules. You wouldn't want me to get banned now would you?




How would you get banned? You aren't on any moderation status, there's not so much as a warning symbol next to your name. In the few years I have been here, I have yet to see anyone get banned without these- and even then you'd be muted for an increasing number of days long before you would be banned, unless Fr Chris has drastically changed the way things are done around here. The only reason I could think of that the mods would ban you, right this instant, would be if they discovered that you really are a sock-puppet of Alfred Persson in drag (not saying you are, understand).

I have yet to see the mods moderate anyone for answering a reply to their own question on a thread- and given that the particular thread in question would actually be a perfect venue to ask questions about the value of ritual versus non-value (seeing as how the thread basically boiled down to: crossing oneself is a good thing when done for proper reasons, pure ritualism when done just because someone at your parish is a busybody) I doubt there would have been any moderation at all, save perhaps one of those "A reminder, CTPRI Fountain Pen: The Liturgy section is intended for Orthodox posters, etc" then give you a warning. Certainly, if your whole reason for starting this thread was to get clarification on the historic/Apostolic teaching reasons for things like crossing oneself, you took the wrong approach by stating "Good grief! That we should fill our lives with rituals!" and missed out on a piece of information directly related to your query regarding the first recorded (in surviving writings) reference to the sign of the cross.

Indeed, a good illustration of needless pharisaism- while you followed forum rules to the letter (regarding non-Orthodox posters derailing threads in the non "insert faith here"/Orthodox discussion forums") you certainly violated the spirit of discussion- what could have been a fruitful and informative discussion has basically been you starting out with an inflammatory post and then jumping to the "Oh, woe is me, I'm a persecuted non-Orthodox poster!" cant when posters here defend their point of view. I don't mind debate- I understand most non-Orthodox objections to many Orthodox practices, and not all that long ago might have been making similar posts to yours (indeed, I remember a point where I thought RCs were silly for eating fish on Fridays during Lent!)- but there isn't a whole lot of point to starting out a conversation with "Good grief! What you do is incredibly silly!"

Ah i see, that was my error. Thanks for pointing it out to me so graciously FR. Phew! Well, at least it wasn't because i'm a woman or even an emotional woman heh, at least they got a break today, HUZZAH!
 ;)


EDIT: one small thing... i couldn't find the "woe is me" part anywhere.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 08:04:43 PM by FountainPen »
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline dzheremi

  • No longer posting here.
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,383
Hmmm..."Fill your life with hundreds of rituals" that have developed for the worship of our God, or fill your life with hundreds of rituals that have nothing to do with the worship of God.

The choice seems pretty clear to me...at least as clear as the dichotomy presented in the OP is false. You'd like it to be that anything you identify as "ritual" is as meaningless as you take it to be, but it isn't so. The hymns we say at particular times during the very structured/ritualized liturgy, for instance, all have deep reasons for being as they are and where they are. That you don't recognize the value drawn from them is a deficiency on your part having nothing to do with the rituals' actual use in the Christian life of the believer. You are like a person who goes to the Louvre and wonders why every room can't just be four bare walls. After all, you can appreciate "art" in the abstract without actually having to look at it, can't you?

And yet, our Lord the risen Christ gave the following instructions to the doubting apostle Thomas: “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” The point here, as relates to this discussion, is that we do not interact with an abstract God, and so we do not worship God merely in the abstract, as though "following Christ" does not involve actual following (i.e., movement). And like the doubting Thomases we all sometimes are, we know, because we are tactile creatures, that it is good and edifying and affirming of our faith to engage our physical bodies in worship to whatever degree is proper in the Orthodox tradition via metanias, crossing ourselves, giving each other the kiss of peace, etc. So these are anything but "empty rituals". Instead, they reaffirm our faith. The summit and zenith of every liturgy is in the observance of a very physical act that has been very much ritualized since the earliest days of the faith: The reception of the Eucharist. All of the churches have a similar dialogue to go with this ritual, involving Christ's own ritualized actions the night of the last supper. Taking bread, blessing it, likewise taking the bread and blessing it, etc. And of course His commandment that we do this in remembrance of Him. It sure sounds like He is establishing a ritual here to me! And so we do what He did, because that's what following Christ means.

So I would argue that instead of setting up an utterly false dichotomy whereby ritual by its very nature gets in the way of following Christ, we should all recognize the fact that we cannot truly follow Him without ritual.

I believe that this is one of those things that everyone knows, if they think about it enough. You will note, I hope, that those who consider themselves on the "cutting edge" of Christianity and truly following Christ as we are supposed to (the so-called "emergent movement") are abundant with ritual in their chaotic and unformed services. The difference between us and them (in terms of externals) is that they have taken a wide variety of ritual on-board according to their whim at any given point (I have even seen videos of so-called "emergent" churches that include Orthodox elements, or at least things that are made to look like they came from the Eastern churches!). whereas our rituals have been fixed for many centuries and imbued with the theological significance that comes along with the many Patristic writings, matryrologies, and other sources that testify to them and their meaning throughout the ages. So the emergents and other "non-ritual" idea followers are not any less-heavily laden with traditions, but their attitude seems to be that they don't want to have to do the same thing two weeks in a row. This is what your "un-ritualized" Christianity gets you: A big mess that is full of tradition but without any understanding as to what any of it means, so it means nothing to jettison it the next meeting in favor of the next thing. And this is "following Christ"? If it is, then I'm in the wrong religion entirely. (But thank GOD it's not!)

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
If only it stopped at adding one though Delphine.
Can't have too much of a good thang, darlin'.

We humans get along okay with having to remember all those tricky, complex and monotonous processes like breathing, circulating blood, moving our limbs in sleep, blinking, etc.

I think we can handle a few movements and practices without becoming isolated, pharisaical zomboids.

Given just how many people aren't even aware of the existence of Orthodoxy, i'd say the message aint' gettin' out there too well shweetie.

You ARE trying to get banned! Guess you can then claim some high ground (which you haven't attained here otherwise).
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline FormerReformer

  • Convertodox of the convertodox
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,547
    • Music and Orthodoxy
  • Faith: Convertodox
  • Jurisdiction: Netodoxy
If only it stopped at adding one though Delphine.
Can't have too much of a good thang, darlin'.

We humans get along okay with having to remember all those tricky, complex and monotonous processes like breathing, circulating blood, moving our limbs in sleep, blinking, etc.

I think we can handle a few movements and practices without becoming isolated, pharisaical zomboids.

Given just how many people aren't even aware of the existence of Orthodoxy, i'd say the message aint' gettin' out there too well shweetie.

By "many people" do you mean "Americans"?

Ohhhhhh, I get it now! Your objection is based entirely off the fact that Russian/Greek/Serbians haven't immigrated over here in the numbers of the Italian/Irish/Polish and Orthodoxy never had an Inquisition nor Mayflower.

Please, read up on St Herman of Alaska. American Orthodoxy has many faults, but Orthodoxy as a whole does know how to do mission work right- starting with not shoving it's POV into everyone's face just because it happens to be the right one. Given the leaps and bounds that Orthodoxy's grown in the 20th century, they seem to have no problem getting the message out there- to the consternation of RC Sproul, John MacArthur, and the Reformed Justice Ligue (http://orthodoxbridge.com/?p=30, mispelling on purpose).



Ah i see, that was my error. Thanks for pointing it out to me so graciously FR. Phew! Well, at least it wasn't because i'm a woman or even an emotional woman heh, at least they got a break today, HUZZAH!
 ;)


EDIT: one small thing... i couldn't find the "woe is me" part anywhere.

Oh, I thought the "a woman or even an emotional woman" (and isn't that redundant amiriteguys? Guys?! Hello?!!) was implied (Where'd everyone go?). Of course, given your problems with Protestantism, an implicit statement might be hard to follow  :laugh:

On that note "Woe is me" is implicit every time you pull out the "Wouldn't want to get banned" language. Also missing, yet implicit, from your posts was "What you do is incredibly silly" following the "Good grief". But of course, according to you, if you don't state it in the most literal terms we are drawing false conclusions (because you are most definitely not a Protestant, you have never stated you were a Protestant, even though you have stated you are not Roman Catholic nor Orthodox, which leaves Protestantism as the only option, seeing as how the denominations did not form in a vacuum).
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
This thread was really boring until...
Life is a delight if done rite.
Oh my...I don't even... :D :D :D :D :D :D Jetavan you rule.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Sunday of Orthodoxy homily from oh 5 years ago the priest, Fr. Frank Miloro from the ACROD said, not verbatim mind you, that while we have all these beautiful churches and services the most precious and glorious praise and worship (outside of liturgy) we can give to God is by following the mandates Christ set out in Matthew chapter 25, if we're not doing that than all the services and prostrations we do are just empty motions.   And you know what, Fr. Frank is 100% right because he didn't create that homily, he was just repeating what Christ said in Matthew ch. 25.  Probably the best homily I have ever heard.  If you ever get a chance, catch a homily from Fr. Frank or read some of Fr. Jonathan Tobias' writings, both are Carpatho-Russian Orthodox priests.
This is one of the rare instances I'd like to see you back to your posting habits. Wait.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
Given just how many people aren't even aware of the existence of Orthodoxy, i'd say the message aint' gettin' out there too well shweetie.

While you are correct in the fact that many converts have to find Orthodoxy instead of vice versa like it should be, I don't think any ritualism involved in either communal or private practice are to blame for this.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,933
Quote
Quote from: Ortho_Cat
Quote
Quote from: FountainPen
Where/when/by whom was the practice was first recorded?

Jesus was the first to take up his cross...we are called to follow him, and doing this reminds us of that.

We are told to take up our cross, not to perform ritualised hand movements merely to remind us of what Jesus did.

Why clog the Christian life with rituals piled high on top of one another and then to discuss how many times we're all supposed to do them or in what way we do them? Doesn't life have enough real challenges in it for you (the Church)? The world is going to hell in a handbasket while we all colours of robes, liturgies, incense and prostrations while we (the various Churches) could be discussing how we can organise ourselves to aid the current issues of drug abuse, alcoholism and promiscuity.

Good grief, that we should all fill our lives with rituals!

Do this in remembrance of Me
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,933
If only it stopped at adding one though Delphine.
Can't have too much of a good thang, darlin'.

We humans get along okay with having to remember all those tricky, complex and monotonous processes like breathing, circulating blood, moving our limbs in sleep, blinking, etc.

I think we can handle a few movements and practices without becoming isolated, pharisaical zomboids.

Given just how many people aren't even aware of the existence of Orthodoxy, i'd say the message aint' gettin' out there too well shweetie.
How many were aware of the existence of Orthodoxy, i.e. the Church, in the days of Tiberius Caesar?

Btw, on this topic, you know the story of St. Vladimir's emessaries to the DL in Hagia Sophia, no?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,555
  • 1951-2015 Memory Eternal Uncle Roy--40 Days of Mourning.
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
If i am walking along repeating (all or partof) the Jesus prayer to myself, i am not looking outward on the people i am passing because my mind is occupied. Instead of being ready for the moment that an opportiunity to speak or help arises and having an expectation that it will, i am concentrating on my internal dialogue

Then that is your problem. Getting on topic, if we go entirely by your logic, then why don't we just forget about God, prayer and repentance altogether and solely focus on feeding the poor and doing good actions? These things only become a hindrance if you allow them to become a hindrance to yourself because of your own spiritual laziness. For example, I find that prayer very often is a hindrance to me, however, when I use it with a willing heart to grow closer to God, it actually aids me in my relationship with him. The same goes for these 'rituals' you closet-Protestant 'non-denominationals' look down upon so much. These help us to grow closer to God and are only a hindrance if you make them a hindrance and cannot manage. Even if we do feed the poor and perform all these good actions, which, are essential, we each still need to devote time to God personally. We cannot help others if we do not also help ourselves, or we'll lead them into a ditch. Therefore, honoring God for the sake of ourselves is also essential in the Christian life, and that is what these 'rituals' help us with. If it is too much for you to handle then drop Christianity altogether; no one ever said it would be a walk in the park. As for externals, like vestments, candles and incense etc, those also help us to grow closer to God, and many of them are actually prophecised about in the Bible, but also importantly, these are done to honor God. God is our King, and He deserves His house to be as beautiful as we can make it according to our ability. I find it very frightening and morally inferior how many Protestants or 'non-denominationals' tend to cut so many of these things out as being 'unnecessary'. They dishonor God through laziness and try to in a sense, 'get away' with doing the very least amount of work they have to. It shows a lot about their ethics if you ask me. These 'rituals' only become bad if they are used for the wrong reasons and instead of bringing them closer to God, further separate them from God.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

  • "SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,817
  • "Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"
    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=profile&id=1456515775
FountainPen,

I can only speak for myself, but these rituals help me, a grave sinner, to reorient my life on at least a weekly basis.  I suck.  I know I do.  I constantly find myself doing that which I do not want to do and not doing that which I want to.  These rituals help me to remember that.  If they help for but an hour before I fall again, that's an hour I spend with my mind on the Lord rather than the filth of my own mind.  Were my faith as great as yours, I would not need them. 

But I do.

Please forgive me for my weakness.


I feel the same way. There is a divine purpose for every ritual and Tradition we observe in Orthodoxy. When I wandered in an unchurched "Sola Scriptura" wilderness, my prayer life was frail and my Christian deeds were even weaker. Orthodoxy provided me with the discipline and order that I need to help orient my mind and my heart to Christ on a consistent basis. But Christ came to heal the sick, not those who are well. The Church exists for needy sinners, and I am certainly one of them.


Selam
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,375
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
"The pastors told me: 'All Scripture is God-breathed and Profitable...'

I told them they cut down a God-breathed tree just to make a Profit." -Shane Claiborne, as cited in "Dreams from My Father (Kindle Fire Edition)"

not really
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 03:11:06 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Fountainpen, you mentioned walking around saying the Jesus Prayer as something that would prevent us from helping those in need.  You also say we should only engage in those rituals that we are commanded to engage in.  Did St. Paul not command us to pray without ceasing?  As well, why prayer EVER if prayer means being unable to act?
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
If only it stopped at adding one though Delphine.
Can't have too much of a good thang, darlin'.

We humans get along okay with having to remember all those tricky, complex and monotonous processes like breathing, circulating blood, moving our limbs in sleep, blinking, etc.

I think we can handle a few movements and practices without becoming isolated, pharisaical zomboids.

Given just how many people aren't even aware of the existence of Orthodoxy, i'd say the message aint' gettin' out there too well shweetie.

You ARE trying to get banned! Guess you can then claim some high ground (which you haven't attained here otherwise).

No thanks.

I will leave the jostle for that "high ground" between y'all.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Fountainpen, you mentioned walking around saying the Jesus Prayer as something that would prevent us from helping those in need.  You also say we should only engage in those rituals that we are commanded to engage in.  Did St. Paul not command us to pray without ceasing?  As well, why prayer EVER if prayer means being unable to act?

Yes. Pray without ceasing 1 Thessalonians 5:17. Clearly, in context, this is about having an attitude of prayerfulness, not literally mumbling words under your breath every second of every day or every year but a constant thankful, rejoicing and prayerful attitude.

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
If only it stopped at adding one though Delphine.
Can't have too much of a good thang, darlin'.

We humans get along okay with having to remember all those tricky, complex and monotonous processes like breathing, circulating blood, moving our limbs in sleep, blinking, etc.

I think we can handle a few movements and practices without becoming isolated, pharisaical zomboids.

Given just how many people aren't even aware of the existence of Orthodoxy, i'd say the message aint' gettin' out there too well shweetie.

By "many people" do you mean "Americans"?
No, i meant British.

Quote
Ah i see, that was my error. Thanks for pointing it out to me so graciously FR. Phew! Well, at least it wasn't because i'm a woman or even an emotional woman heh, at least they got a break today, HUZZAH!
 ;)


EDIT: one small thing... i couldn't find the "woe is me" part anywhere.

Oh, I thought the "a woman or even an emotional woman" (and isn't that redundant amiriteguys? Guys?! Hello?!!) was implied (Where'd everyone go?). Of course, given your problems with Protestantism, an implicit statement might be hard to follow  :laugh:
I have problems with Protestantism now?

Quote
On that note "Woe is me" is implicit every time you pull out the "Wouldn't want to get banned" language. Also missing, yet implicit, from your posts was "What you do is incredibly silly" following the "Good grief". But of course, according to you, if you don't state it in the most literal terms we are drawing false conclusions (because you are most definitely not a Protestant, you have never stated you were a Protestant, even though you have stated you are not Roman Catholic nor Orthodox, which leaves Protestantism as the only option, seeing as how the denominations did not form in a vacuum).
Yah, there's nothing else except RCs, Orthodox or Protestants. Everything else came out of these three right? /wikilove

« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 06:58:08 AM by FountainPen »
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Priest: Then, when he had come and fulfilled the whole of the divine dispensation for us, on the night that he was given up, or, rather, gave himself up for the life of the world, he took bread in his holy, pure and blameless hands and, when he had blessed it, hallowed it and broken it, he gave it to his disciples saying "take, eat, this is my body, which is broken for you for the remission of sins".

People: Amen.

Priest: In like manner, when the supper was ended, he took the cup and gave it to his disciples saying "drink of this, all of you, this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for you and for many for the remission of sins".

People: Amen.

Priest: Remembering, therefore, this our Saviour's command, and everything that has come to pass for us: the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting at the right hand and the second and glorious coming again -- your own of your own, we offer unto you, on behalf of all and for all.

----------------------------------------------

Where's the problem?

FountainPen, so I can understand you better, can you please explain what part of the above is objectionable?

Please feel free to include the "ritual actions" that accompany the words in your criticisms, but please let's just stick to those for now.

I think if we dialogue in this way, taking a limited slice of liturgical life as our focal point, we can arrive at some mutual understanding.

Empty ritualism v. liturgical chaos is too unwieldy a theme.

I did take a slice, i asked specifically about crossing yourself. Is this a command? No. Jesus literally walked to his death carrying his cross. Does this mean we are to make the sign of a cross on our bodies? No, of course not. We are to die to self, that is why this means.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
It seems the underlying assumption is that rituals in no way benefit us, why is that ritiuals can in no way benefit us? I must have missed reading that in scripture...

Her assertion isn't that they don't benefit us, but that they prevent us from performing other things that we are commanded to do. I apologize if i am misrepresenting her, but this is the impression that I get from the OP.

Yes, you're mostly right. Not so much prevent (as someone corrected me earlier) but that life becomes so filled with 'add-ons' that the process of getting the gospel out there to those who are dying and need to hear it, see it in us, is limited. It's not just about feeding the poor or dealing with societal problems, it's about engaging with people on an accessibly level. It's not about us and the betterment of our own lives but the pouring out of our lives for others.

That's what stabs me in the heart when i read of the complicated intricacies of the Orthodox life.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 07:22:14 AM by FountainPen »
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline DennyB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 234
  • Moving Toward Orthodoxy
FountainPen, don't you think your being a little hypocritical? Were do you have a direct command from Scripture to Worship the way you worship, or that Worship is to be performed "spontaneously". All the years I was a Protestant,I never found those passages in Scripture.

When Jesus came to fullfill the Old Covenant practices,He didn't mean do away with them altogether ,but to show how they were fullfilled in Him,to show there true meaning. He codemned the hardened hearts behind those practices!!

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
FountainPen, don't you think your being a little hypocritical? Were do you have a direct command from Scripture to Worship the way you worship, or that Worship is to be performed "spontaneously". All the years I was a Protestant,I never found those passages in Scripture.

When Jesus came to fullfill the Old Covenant practices,He didn't mean do away with them altogether ,but to show how they were fullfilled in Him,to show there true meaning. He codemned the hardened hearts behind those practices!!

Worship to me is a lifestyle, so the way i worship is not something i separate out and do on a Sunday morning but it's incorporated into everything i do in life. When i wash dishes, i do it "unto The Lord", when i tend a sick relative i am worshipping God with my life. When i speak to someone about God i am worshipping and when i put out the rubbish i am worshipping also.

Our whole life is sacrifice of worship, praise and thanksgiving to God. Whatever we do in life, we do "unto The Lord". (Colossians 3:23)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 07:35:24 AM by FountainPen »
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline DennyB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 234
  • Moving Toward Orthodoxy
FountainPen, don't you think your being a little hypocritical? Were do you have a direct command from Scripture to Worship the way you worship, or that Worship is to be performed "spontaneously". All the years I was a Protestant,I never found those passages in Scripture.

When Jesus came to fullfill the Old Covenant practices,He didn't mean do away with them altogether ,but to show how they were fullfilled in Him,to show there true meaning. He codemned the hardened hearts behind those practices!!

Worship to me is a lifestyle, so the way i worship is not something i separate out and do on a Sunday morning but it's incorporated into everything i do in life. When i wash dishes, i do it "unto The Lord", when i tend a sick relative i am worshipping God with my life. When i speak to someone about God i am worshipping and when i put out the rubbish i am worshipping also.

Our whole life is sacrifice of worship, praise and thanksgiving to God. Whatever we do in life, we do "unto The Lord". (Colossians 3:23)

You didn't answer my question! but I'll use your deflection
To ask the question again. Where do you find in Scripture, that
Worship is a "lifestyle". Since you are so hung-up on Scriptural
Mandates.

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Since you are so hung-up on Scriptural Mandates.

Where do you get the idea that i'm "hung-up" on them? I'm not. It's simply as good a place to start as any.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,801
It seems the underlying assumption is that rituals in no way benefit us, why is that ritiuals can in no way benefit us? I must have missed reading that in scripture...

Her assertion isn't that they don't benefit us, but that they prevent us from performing other things that we are commanded to do. I apologize if i am misrepresenting her, but this is the impression that I get from the OP.

Yes, you're mostly right. Not so much prevent (as someone corrected me earlier) but that life becomes so filled with 'add-ons' that the process of getting the gospel out there to those who are dying and need to hear it, see it in us, is limited. It's not just about feeding the poor or dealing with societal problems, it's about engaging with people on an accessibly level. It's not about us and the betterment of our own lives but the pouring out of our lives for others.

That's what stabs me in the heart when i read of the complicated intricacies of the Orthodox life.

We first have to better our own lives to be able to have the Grace that allows us to pour our lives out for others.  IF Churches today actually "performed" all of the rituals that were handed down, like reading ALL the verses during Matins and Vespers (wait . . . perhaps they should start with even having those services), reading from the lives of the Saints, and most importantly, IN A LANGUAGE THAT THE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND, maybe people would have a change of heart and be compelled to do those things that you speak of.  After all, those things ARE what Christ commanded us to do, and what He says that we will be judged by when He returns.  However, services in many Churches have become only an empty shell.  This is NOT the fault of the ritual, but rather of the PEOPLE who perform the ritual.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline biro

  • Excelsior
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,526
  • Leave me alone, I was only singing
    • Alaska Volcanoes
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
When we make the Sign of the Cross, it is not 'just' a ritual: it is a prayer. We say, either out loud or to ourselves, "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, Amen." We invoke the Trinity. This is an important prayer because it dedicates what we do, to God. It also asserts the correct (and Biblical) definition of the nature of God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It clarifies that we are praying to the true God and not a false ideal.

Saying the name of God is not to be taken lightly, as the Commandments tell us.

Scripture tells us to "bless the Lord at all times." And so, we do.
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

--

And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Where do you find in Scripture, that Worship is a "lifestyle".

The two greatest commandments set the basis for a life of worship.

People could go through their whole week living it in sin then turn up on a Sunday to "worship". The corporate meetings should be a culmination of what we have been doing all week!

Romans 12:1 "I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your true spiritual worship."

1 Corinthians 10:31 “So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God”

I don't think any Orthodox Christian would disagree that worship encompasses the whole of a person's life, not simply what they participate in on a Sunday morning.



None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
When we make the Sign of the Cross, it is not 'just' a ritual: it is a prayer. We say, either out loud or to ourselves, "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, Amen." We invoke the Trinity. This is an important prayer because it dedicates what we do, to God. It also asserts the correct (and Biblical) definition of the nature of God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It clarifies that we are praying to the true God and not a false ideal.

Saying the name of God is not to be taken lightly, as the Commandments tell us.

Scripture tells us to "bless the Lord at all times." And so, we do.

It also reminds us that we are to love the Lord with (as we touch) all of our mind (head), heart and soul (body), and strength (shoulders).
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
I don't think any Orthodox Christian would disagree that worship encompasses the whole of a person's life, not simply what they participate in on a Sunday morning.

It's anothor onwe of those things that we are to do both, not just one or the other.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
Yes. Pray without ceasing 1 Thessalonians 5:17. Clearly, in context, this is about having an attitude of prayerfulness, not literally mumbling words under your breath every second of every day or every year but a constant thankful, rejoicing and prayerful attitude.

Prayer to God isn't an attitude, but a reaching out to Him. You need to have something on your mind that you are saying to God, what that is specifically is not explicitly commanded in that particular passage. Just like constantly having hymns and psalms in your heart.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
I did take a slice, i asked specifically about crossing yourself. Is this a command? No. Jesus literally walked to his death carrying his cross. Does this mean we are to make the sign of a cross on our bodies? No, of course not. We are to die to self, that is why this means.

Let me ask you this, do you honestly think that doing the sign of the cross renders anyone incapable of doing anything other than using their right hand for a fraction of a second?

Sorry for the multiple post. Wanted to deal with things one at a time.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 09:55:48 AM by Melodist »
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
FountainPen, don't you think your being a little hypocritical? Were do you have a direct command from Scripture to Worship the way you worship, or that Worship is to be performed "spontaneously". All the years I was a Protestant,I never found those passages in Scripture.

When Jesus came to fullfill the Old Covenant practices,He didn't mean do away with them altogether ,but to show how they were fullfilled in Him,to show there true meaning. He codemned the hardened hearts behind those practices!!

Worship to me is a lifestyle, so the way i worship is not something i separate out and do on a Sunday morning but it's incorporated into everything i do in life. When i wash dishes, i do it "unto The Lord", when i tend a sick relative i am worshipping God with my life. When i speak to someone about God i am worshipping and when i put out the rubbish i am worshipping also.

Our whole life is sacrifice of worship, praise and thanksgiving to God. Whatever we do in life, we do "unto The Lord". (Colossians 3:23)
I've never heard Orthodoxy taught as being a "Sunday only religion".
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Yes. Pray without ceasing 1 Thessalonians 5:17. Clearly, in context, this is about having an attitude of prayerfulness, not literally mumbling words under your breath every second of every day or every year but a constant thankful, rejoicing and prayerful attitude.

Prayer to God isn't an attitude, but a reaching out to Him. You need to have something on your mind that you are saying to God, what that is specifically is not explicitly commanded in that particular passage. Just like constantly having hymns and psalms in your heart.

I didn't say prayer is an attitude. I said, in this context, together with rejoicing at all times and giving thanks in all circumstances -- which are also part of this verse -- praying at all times is more about an attitude of prayerful, joyful gratitude.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
FountainPen, don't you think your being a little hypocritical? Were do you have a direct command from Scripture to Worship the way you worship, or that Worship is to be performed "spontaneously". All the years I was a Protestant,I never found those passages in Scripture.

When Jesus came to fullfill the Old Covenant practices,He didn't mean do away with them altogether ,but to show how they were fullfilled in Him,to show there true meaning. He codemned the hardened hearts behind those practices!!

Worship to me is a lifestyle, so the way i worship is not something i separate out and do on a Sunday morning but it's incorporated into everything i do in life. When i wash dishes, i do it "unto The Lord", when i tend a sick relative i am worshipping God with my life. When i speak to someone about God i am worshipping and when i put out the rubbish i am worshipping also.

Our whole life is sacrifice of worship, praise and thanksgiving to God. Whatever we do in life, we do "unto The Lord". (Colossians 3:23)
I've never heard Orthodoxy taught as being a "Sunday only religion".

Good. Then we agree that worshipping God is about presenting your whole life as a living sacrifice.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
I did take a slice, i asked specifically about crossing yourself. Is this a command? No. Jesus literally walked to his death carrying his cross. Does this mean we are to make the sign of a cross on our bodies? No, of course not. We are to die to self, that is why this means.

Let me ask you this, do you honestly think that doing the sign of the cross renders anyone incapable of doing anything other than using their right hand for a fraction of a second?

Melodist, really!?

#laughs
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
FountainPen, don't you think your being a little hypocritical? Were do you have a direct command from Scripture to Worship the way you worship, or that Worship is to be performed "spontaneously". All the years I was a Protestant,I never found those passages in Scripture.

When Jesus came to fullfill the Old Covenant practices,He didn't mean do away with them altogether ,but to show how they were fullfilled in Him,to show there true meaning. He codemned the hardened hearts behind those practices!!

Worship to me is a lifestyle, so the way i worship is not something i separate out and do on a Sunday morning but it's incorporated into everything i do in life. When i wash dishes, i do it "unto The Lord", when i tend a sick relative i am worshipping God with my life. When i speak to someone about God i am worshipping and when i put out the rubbish i am worshipping also.

Our whole life is sacrifice of worship, praise and thanksgiving to God. Whatever we do in life, we do "unto The Lord". (Colossians 3:23)
I've never heard Orthodoxy taught as being a "Sunday only religion".

Good. Then we agree that worshipping God is about presenting your whole life as a living sacrifice.
How well are you doing that? I've found that those who don't worship in a church on Sunday mornings generally don't worship at all.
Not all who wander are lost.

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
I did take a slice, i asked specifically about crossing yourself. Is this a command? No. Jesus literally walked to his death carrying his cross. Does this mean we are to make the sign of a cross on our bodies? No, of course not. We are to die to self, that is why this means.

Let me ask you this, do you honestly think that doing the sign of the cross renders anyone incapable of doing anything other than using their right hand for a fraction of a second?

Melodist, really!?

#laughs
Please answer the question.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
FountainPen, don't you think your being a little hypocritical? Were do you have a direct command from Scripture to Worship the way you worship, or that Worship is to be performed "spontaneously". All the years I was a Protestant,I never found those passages in Scripture.

When Jesus came to fullfill the Old Covenant practices,He didn't mean do away with them altogether ,but to show how they were fullfilled in Him,to show there true meaning. He codemned the hardened hearts behind those practices!!

Worship to me is a lifestyle, so the way i worship is not something i separate out and do on a Sunday morning but it's incorporated into everything i do in life. When i wash dishes, i do it "unto The Lord", when i tend a sick relative i am worshipping God with my life. When i speak to someone about God i am worshipping and when i put out the rubbish i am worshipping also.

Our whole life is sacrifice of worship, praise and thanksgiving to God. Whatever we do in life, we do "unto The Lord". (Colossians 3:23)
I've never heard Orthodoxy taught as being a "Sunday only religion".

Good. Then we agree that worshipping God is about presenting your whole life as a living sacrifice.
How well are you doing that? I've found that those who don't worship in a church on Sunday mornings generally don't worship at all.

Nice.

One minute we're discussing general worship/rituals and i think we're getting somewhere and the next you resort to a snarky ad hom.

Real mature Peter.

Real "adult"

Oh but wait! I probably 'read it the wrong way'. Yeah, that's probably it  ;)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 10:17:38 AM by FountainPen »
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Fountainpen, you mentioned walking around saying the Jesus Prayer as something that would prevent us from helping those in need.  You also say we should only engage in those rituals that we are commanded to engage in.  Did St. Paul not command us to pray without ceasing?  As well, why prayer EVER if prayer means being unable to act?

Yes. Pray without ceasing 1 Thessalonians 5:17. Clearly, in context, this is about having an attitude of prayerfulness, not literally mumbling words under your breath every second of every day or every year but a constant thankful, rejoicing and prayerful attitude.



And you are clearly most erudite and wise to know precisely what the Apostle meant, 2,000 years after he lived.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,933
Fountainpen, you mentioned walking around saying the Jesus Prayer as something that would prevent us from helping those in need.  You also say we should only engage in those rituals that we are commanded to engage in.  Did St. Paul not command us to pray without ceasing?  As well, why prayer EVER if prayer means being unable to act?

Yes. Pray without ceasing 1 Thessalonians 5:17. Clearly, in context, this is about having an attitude of prayerfulness, not literally mumbling words under your breath every second of every day or every year but a constant thankful, rejoicing and prayerful attitude.


On the basis for your dogma, that the two are mutually exclusive (ignoring, for the time being, your characterization of recitation as "mumbling")?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
I did take a slice, i asked specifically about crossing yourself. Is this a command? No. Jesus literally walked to his death carrying his cross. Does this mean we are to make the sign of a cross on our bodies? No, of course not. We are to die to self, that is why this means.
Let me ask you this, do you honestly think that doing the sign of the cross renders anyone incapable of doing anything other than using their right hand for a fraction of a second?
Melodist, really!?

#laughs

Yes really. You're main assertion is that it prevents us from doing other things that we should. As far as scriptural commands, while not explicitly commanded, the sign of the cross can serve as an aid to prayer, draw our attention to Who we are praying to, and express that we are to love the Lord with all of our mind (head), heart and soul (body), and strength (shoulders). It's not in opposition to following that which we are explicitly commanded to do, and can be a beneficial aid to prayer when done with the right attitude.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
FountainPen, don't you think your being a little hypocritical? Were do you have a direct command from Scripture to Worship the way you worship, or that Worship is to be performed "spontaneously". All the years I was a Protestant,I never found those passages in Scripture.

When Jesus came to fullfill the Old Covenant practices,He didn't mean do away with them altogether ,but to show how they were fullfilled in Him,to show there true meaning. He codemned the hardened hearts behind those practices!!

Worship to me is a lifestyle, so the way i worship is not something i separate out and do on a Sunday morning but it's incorporated into everything i do in life. When i wash dishes, i do it "unto The Lord", when i tend a sick relative i am worshipping God with my life. When i speak to someone about God i am worshipping and when i put out the rubbish i am worshipping also.

Our whole life is sacrifice of worship, praise and thanksgiving to God. Whatever we do in life, we do "unto The Lord". (Colossians 3:23)
I've never heard Orthodoxy taught as being a "Sunday only religion".

Good. Then we agree that worshipping God is about presenting your whole life as a living sacrifice.
How well are you doing that? I've found that those who don't worship in a church on Sunday mornings generally don't worship at all.

Nice.

One minute we're discussing general worship/rituals and i think we're getting somewhere and the next you resort to a snarky ad hom.

Real mature Peter.

Real "adult"

Oh but wait! I probably 'read it the wrong way'. Yeah, that's probably it  ;)
Yes, you had it the wrong way. You start this whole thread as a way to criticize others for not worshiping God by presenting their whole lives as living sacrifices, so it's only fair you tell us how you're doing in this regard.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Timon

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,699
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
All this over crossing yourself??

I was at a baptist megachurch a couple weeks ago, (note: this is the most reformed place that exists on the planet) and even they were talking about what a beautiful practice crossing oneself is.  They themselves do not practice this, but they spoke of it from the perspective of "maybe we should do this."  I was surprised.  

I havent read the whole thread here, and im not going to.  But surely someone has brought up some quotes from early fathers about this practice, and surely someone has pointed out that this has been going on before everyone had a copy of the Bible.  



Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

— Chrysostom

BLOG

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
I did take a slice, i asked specifically about crossing yourself. Is this a command? No. Jesus literally walked to his death carrying his cross. Does this mean we are to make the sign of a cross on our bodies? No, of course not. We are to die to self, that is why this means.

Let me ask you this, do you honestly think that doing the sign of the cross renders anyone incapable of doing anything other than using their right hand for a fraction of a second?

Melodist, really!?

#laughs
Please answer the question.

I will if you promise to stop acting like an ornery, infantile show-off.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
All this over crossing yourself??

There's more to it, crossing oneself is just being used as an example.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Fountainpen, you mentioned walking around saying the Jesus Prayer as something that would prevent us from helping those in need.  You also say we should only engage in those rituals that we are commanded to engage in.  Did St. Paul not command us to pray without ceasing?  As well, why prayer EVER if prayer means being unable to act?

Yes. Pray without ceasing 1 Thessalonians 5:17. Clearly, in context, this is about having an attitude of prayerfulness, not literally mumbling words under your breath every second of every day or every year but a constant thankful, rejoicing and prayerful attitude.



And you are clearly most erudite and wise to know precisely what the Apostle meant, 2,000 years after he lived.

No, i read St. Theophan the Recluse and St. Philaret of Moscow first.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline Peter J

  • Formerly PJ
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,268
  • Faith: Melkite Catholic
We are told to take up our cross, not to perform ritualised hand movements merely to remind us of what Jesus did.

Why clog the Christian life with rituals piled high on top of one another and then to discuss how many times we're all supposed to do them or in what way we do them? Doesn't life have enough real challenges in it for you (the Church)? The world is going to hell in a handbasket while we all colours of robes, liturgies, incense and prostrations while we (the various Churches) could be discussing how we can organise ourselves to aid the current issues of drug abuse, alcoholism and promiscuity.

Good grief, that we should all fill our lives with rituals!

Nice rant. [/sarcasm]

Sorry, but after reading the beginning of this thread, I'm not bothering to read all of it. It just doesn't seem to me like it got off to a very good start.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,801
FountainPen, don't you think your being a little hypocritical? Were do you have a direct command from Scripture to Worship the way you worship, or that Worship is to be performed "spontaneously". All the years I was a Protestant,I never found those passages in Scripture.

When Jesus came to fullfill the Old Covenant practices,He didn't mean do away with them altogether ,but to show how they were fullfilled in Him,to show there true meaning. He codemned the hardened hearts behind those practices!!

Worship to me is a lifestyle, so the way i worship is not something i separate out and do on a Sunday morning but it's incorporated into everything i do in life. When i wash dishes, i do it "unto The Lord", when i tend a sick relative i am worshipping God with my life. When i speak to someone about God i am worshipping and when i put out the rubbish i am worshipping also.

Our whole life is sacrifice of worship, praise and thanksgiving to God. Whatever we do in life, we do "unto The Lord". (Colossians 3:23)
I've never heard Orthodoxy taught as being a "Sunday only religion".

Good. Then we agree that worshipping God is about presenting your whole life as a living sacrifice.
How well are you doing that? I've found that those who don't worship in a church on Sunday mornings generally don't worship at all.

That is a crock of BS, and so typical of the one liner "stir the pot" crap that you post.  In fact, can you post anything with more than three lines in a row without using green ink?  Unfortunately, here is where I Have to agree with Fountain Pen.  I have found some of the people who worship God the most, with their prayers and their actions, will not set foot in a church unless they have to.  Heck the most generous, kind, loving and Christian acting man that I know is not even Orthodox, he is Hindu.  I can see Fountain Pen's point when those outside the Church live the Great Commandments of Christ more than those bowing and prostrating and chanting in a Church, only to leave and live "business as usual" lives the rest of the week.  I have seen this for the 50 years that I have been alive.  However, where I disagree with Fountain Pen is that I believe that the Church and its rituals are not to blame for this.  The Church is a hospital, and it is where the sick and suffering belong.  However, those who do not follow the Doctor's orders will never get better, and often they will get worse.  This is not the fault of the Doctor and the medicine.  While the Scriptures teach us that everyone is sick and in need of healing, not all are as sick as others.  Some do not even recognize that they are sick.  If they are able to function that way, and by function, I mean follow the Law of God, then who are we to judge them; particularly so when we are to sick to even do what they do?  I have to say that I agree very much with a lot that Fountain Pen has written here.  I just happen to find a different root cause for the problem than Fountain Pen has.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline FormerReformer

  • Convertodox of the convertodox
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,547
    • Music and Orthodoxy
  • Faith: Convertodox
  • Jurisdiction: Netodoxy
If only it stopped at adding one though Delphine.
Can't have too much of a good thang, darlin'.

We humans get along okay with having to remember all those tricky, complex and monotonous processes like breathing, circulating blood, moving our limbs in sleep, blinking, etc.

I think we can handle a few movements and practices without becoming isolated, pharisaical zomboids.

Given just how many people aren't even aware of the existence of Orthodoxy, i'd say the message aint' gettin' out there too well shweetie.

By "many people" do you mean "Americans"?
No, i meant British.
Then I take back everything I said to Mr Young apologizing for lumping him in with American strains of Evangelicalism. :laugh: They're all the same, it's just him that's the aberration- would it were the other way around.

Ah i see, that was my error. Thanks for pointing it out to me so graciously FR. Phew! Well, at least it wasn't because i'm a woman or even an emotional woman heh, at least they got a break today, HUZZAH!
 ;)


EDIT: one small thing... i couldn't find the "woe is me" part anywhere.

Oh, I thought the "a woman or even an emotional woman" (and isn't that redundant amiriteguys? Guys?! Hello?!!) was implied (Where'd everyone go?). Of course, given your problems with Protestantism, an implicit statement might be hard to follow  :laugh:
I have problems with Protestantism now?
Only in the sense that, however reluctant you might be toward the appellation, you are one.

On that note "Woe is me" is implicit every time you pull out the "Wouldn't want to get banned" language. Also missing, yet implicit, from your posts was "What you do is incredibly silly" following the "Good grief". But of course, according to you, if you don't state it in the most literal terms we are drawing false conclusions (because you are most definitely not a Protestant, you have never stated you were a Protestant, even though you have stated you are not Roman Catholic nor Orthodox, which leaves Protestantism as the only option, seeing as how the denominations did not form in a vacuum).
Yah, there's nothing else except RCs, Orthodox or Protestants. Everything else came out of these three right? /wikilove
Quick history lesson- At one point every Christian was either Orthodox or heretic. After 1054 the Western Church got too big for it's britches and believed it could call the shots for the entire Church, found out it couldn't, took it's ball and left. All other Western Churches were formed from people who disagreed with the Western Church at some point or another. We can play silly semantical games all day long as to whether or not Luther was Protestant, or Calvin was Protestant, or Cranmer was Protestant, but at the end of the day they were all Protesting the practices of the Roman Catholic Church. Also, in one way or another, every Western Church is descended from one of those three people- any Western Christian who truly believes that their faith community never had any sort of ties with the Roman Catholic Church needs to stop reading Landmarkist Baptist publications and crack a real book.

No need for wikipedia, CTPRI Pen, that there's just good, ole fashioned, European history.

Now, enough of my derailing the thread, let's address another one of your attacks on Orthodox ritualism-

Fountainpen, you mentioned walking around saying the Jesus Prayer as something that would prevent us from helping those in need.  You also say we should only engage in those rituals that we are commanded to engage in.  Did St. Paul not command us to pray without ceasing?  As well, why prayer EVER if prayer means being unable to act?

Yes. Pray without ceasing 1 Thessalonians 5:17. Clearly, in context, this is about having an attitude of prayerfulness, not literally mumbling words under your breath every second of every day or every year but a constant thankful, rejoicing and prayerful attitude.



And you are clearly most erudite and wise to know precisely what the Apostle meant, 2,000 years after he lived.

No, i read St. Theophan the Recluse and St. Philaret of Moscow first.

Had you really done that (not that I doubt you ran your eyes over the pages) then you would realize that Sts Theophan and Philaret would be the first to condemn mumbling words under one's breath without an attitude of prayerfulness. If one is saying the Jesus Prayer at the expense of showing charity and compassion to everyone they meet then one is not truly saying the Jesus Prayer at all- the point hammered home by any Orthodox writing. The same with fasting (since this is Lent and all), if I avoid certain types of food but do this at the expense of being kinder to my family and everyone I meet then I violate the most important part of the fast.

That said, you cannot attain an attitude of prayerfulness without first praying, the same way you cannot attain knowledge of algebra without first solving equations. It is all well and good to talk about "constant thankful, rejoicing and prayerful attitude" but if you are trying to achieve this result without actually thanking, rejoicing, and praying you might as well be trying to reach the moon by flapping your arms really hard. The rituals you condemn are there to build up the spiritual muscles, even as we exercise the arm muscles (crossing) or jaw muscles (praying)- you cannot exercise the spirit without the body, even for the type of spiritual exercise and ritual you feel is more important- I cannot help an addict by merely wishing him better and I cannot help a horny teenager by merely thinking about chastity. Actual, physical steps must be taken.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
FountainPen, don't you think your being a little hypocritical? Were do you have a direct command from Scripture to Worship the way you worship, or that Worship is to be performed "spontaneously". All the years I was a Protestant,I never found those passages in Scripture.

When Jesus came to fullfill the Old Covenant practices,He didn't mean do away with them altogether ,but to show how they were fullfilled in Him,to show there true meaning. He codemned the hardened hearts behind those practices!!

Worship to me is a lifestyle, so the way i worship is not something i separate out and do on a Sunday morning but it's incorporated into everything i do in life. When i wash dishes, i do it "unto The Lord", when i tend a sick relative i am worshipping God with my life. When i speak to someone about God i am worshipping and when i put out the rubbish i am worshipping also.

Our whole life is sacrifice of worship, praise and thanksgiving to God. Whatever we do in life, we do "unto The Lord". (Colossians 3:23)
I've never heard Orthodoxy taught as being a "Sunday only religion".

Good. Then we agree that worshipping God is about presenting your whole life as a living sacrifice.
How well are you doing that? I've found that those who don't worship in a church on Sunday mornings generally don't worship at all.

That is a crock of BS, and so typical of the one liner "stir the pot" crap that you post.
You did happen to notice that I was voicing a personal observation, which can be seen in my choice of the words "I've found"? I'm merely sharing what I have observed. The fact that my observations differ from yours does not invalidate either mine or yours. Besides, nothing you said contradicts anything I've said.

In fact, can you post anything with more than three lines in a row without using green ink?
You have also noticed that I haven't even used any green ink on this thread?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
FountainPen, don't you think your being a little hypocritical? Were do you have a direct command from Scripture to Worship the way you worship, or that Worship is to be performed "spontaneously". All the years I was a Protestant,I never found those passages in Scripture.

When Jesus came to fullfill the Old Covenant practices,He didn't mean do away with them altogether ,but to show how they were fullfilled in Him,to show there true meaning. He codemned the hardened hearts behind those practices!!

Worship to me is a lifestyle, so the way i worship is not something i separate out and do on a Sunday morning but it's incorporated into everything i do in life. When i wash dishes, i do it "unto The Lord", when i tend a sick relative i am worshipping God with my life. When i speak to someone about God i am worshipping and when i put out the rubbish i am worshipping also.

Our whole life is sacrifice of worship, praise and thanksgiving to God. Whatever we do in life, we do "unto The Lord". (Colossians 3:23)
I've never heard Orthodoxy taught as being a "Sunday only religion".

Good. Then we agree that worshipping God is about presenting your whole life as a living sacrifice.
How well are you doing that? I've found that those who don't worship in a church on Sunday mornings generally don't worship at all.

That is a crock of BS, and so typical of the one liner "stir the pot" crap that you post.  In fact, can you post anything with more than three lines in a row without using green ink?  Unfortunately, here is where I Have to agree with Fountain Pen.  I have found some of the people who worship God the most, with their prayers and their actions, will not set foot in a church unless they have to.  Heck the most generous, kind, loving and Christian acting man that I know is not even Orthodox, he is Hindu.  I can see Fountain Pen's point when those outside the Church live the Great Commandments of Christ more than those bowing and prostrating and chanting in a Church, only to leave and live "business as usual" lives the rest of the week.  I have seen this for the 50 years that I have been alive.  However, where I disagree with Fountain Pen is that I believe that the Church and its rituals are not to blame for this.  The Church is a hospital, and it is where the sick and suffering belong.  However, those who do not follow the Doctor's orders will never get better, and often they will get worse.  This is not the fault of the Doctor and the medicine.  While the Scriptures teach us that everyone is sick and in need of healing, not all are as sick as others.  Some do not even recognize that they are sick.  If they are able to function that way, and by function, I mean follow the Law of God, then who are we to judge them; particularly so when we are to sick to even do what they do?  I have to say that I agree very much with a lot that Fountain Pen has written here.  I just happen to find a different root cause for the problem than Fountain Pen has.

Nice.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
You did happen to notice that I was voicing a personal observation, which can be seen in my choice of the words "I've found"? I'm merely sharing what I have observed. The fact that my observations differ from yours does not invalidate either mine or yours. Besides, nothing you said contradicts anything I've said.

Actually it does.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline recent convert

  • Orthodox Chrisitan
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,000
  • St.David of Wales pray for us
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
I do not understand how hourly time spent in worship in any practice is in conflict with carrying out its instructed message to the world. The worship must come first so the believer knows what to witness to the world at large in whatever capacity the individual is called to do.
Antiochian OC N.A.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
I do not understand how hourly time spent in worship in any practice is in conflict with carrying out its instructed message to the world. The worship must come first so the believer knows what to witness to the world at large in whatever capacity the individual is called to do.

It's called a foisted dichotomy.

 
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
However, where I disagree with Fountain Pen is that I believe that the Church and its rituals are not to blame for this.  The Church is a hospital, and it is where the sick and suffering belong.  However, those who do not follow the Doctor's orders will never get better, and often they will get worse.  This is not the fault of the Doctor and the medicine.  While the Scriptures teach us that everyone is sick and in need of healing, not all are as sick as others.  Some do not even recognize that they are sick.  If they are able to function that way, and by function, I mean follow the Law of God, then who are we to judge them; particularly so when we are to sick to even do what they do?  I have to say that I agree very much with a lot that Fountain Pen has written here.  I just happen to find a different root cause for the problem than Fountain Pen has.

I don't know that i'd say rituals are directly to blame but i don't think so many rituals help.

I'd be really interested to know what the root is that you've found though.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
You did happen to notice that I was voicing a personal observation, which can be seen in my choice of the words "I've found"? I'm merely sharing what I have observed. The fact that my observations differ from yours does not invalidate either mine or yours. Besides, nothing you said contradicts anything I've said.

Actually it does.

No, all Punch did was cite a few of those specific exceptions to the rule I intended to establish by my use of the word "generally".
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
You did happen to notice that I was voicing a personal observation, which can be seen in my choice of the words "I've found"? I'm merely sharing what I have observed. The fact that my observations differ from yours does not invalidate either mine or yours. Besides, nothing you said contradicts anything I've said.

Actually it does.

No, all Punch did was cite a few of those specific exceptions to the rule I intended to establish by my use of the word "generally".

You are wrong in general.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline recent convert

  • Orthodox Chrisitan
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,000
  • St.David of Wales pray for us
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
However, where I disagree with Fountain Pen is that I believe that the Church and its rituals are not to blame for this.  The Church is a hospital, and it is where the sick and suffering belong.  However, those who do not follow the Doctor's orders will never get better, and often they will get worse.  This is not the fault of the Doctor and the medicine.  While the Scriptures teach us that everyone is sick and in need of healing, not all are as sick as others.  Some do not even recognize that they are sick.  If they are able to function that way, and by function, I mean follow the Law of God, then who are we to judge them; particularly so when we are to sick to even do what they do?  I have to say that I agree very much with a lot that Fountain Pen has written here.  I just happen to find a different root cause for the problem than Fountain Pen has.

I don't know that i'd say rituals are directly to blame but i don't think so many rituals help.

I'd be really interested to know what the root is that you've found though.
Again, what difference does it make how much time is spent in worship vs. time spent in serving mankind (in some capacity)? If one is a Pentecostal & spends 1 hour & 45 min. in Sunday service vs. an Orthodox who spends about the same time in worship crossing oneself, prostrations etc. but both individuals show concern for others, what does it matter? (laying doctrine aside for the sake of argument).
Antiochian OC N.A.

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
However, where I disagree with Fountain Pen is that I believe that the Church and its rituals are not to blame for this.  The Church is a hospital, and it is where the sick and suffering belong.  However, those who do not follow the Doctor's orders will never get better, and often they will get worse.  This is not the fault of the Doctor and the medicine.  While the Scriptures teach us that everyone is sick and in need of healing, not all are as sick as others.  Some do not even recognize that they are sick.  If they are able to function that way, and by function, I mean follow the Law of God, then who are we to judge them; particularly so when we are to sick to even do what they do?  I have to say that I agree very much with a lot that Fountain Pen has written here.  I just happen to find a different root cause for the problem than Fountain Pen has.

I don't know that i'd say rituals are directly to blame but i don't think so many rituals help.

I'd be really interested to know what the root is that you've found though.
Again, what difference does it make how much time is spent in worship vs. time spent in serving mankind (in some capacity)? If one is a Pentecostal & spends 1 hour & 45 min. in Sunday service vs. an Orthodox who spends about the same time in worship crossing oneself, prostrations etc. but both individuals show concern for others, what does it matter? (laying doctrine aside for the sake of argument).

Yes, would it be better if we didn't cross ourselves at the invocation of the Trinity, or when we called Christ blessed, or mention the resurrection or the crucifixion, or ask petitions of saints? Or perhaps there would be a better activity for our hands to do during worship, like wave them in the air and draw attention to ourselves like some are fond of doing in other circles?

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
You did happen to notice that I was voicing a personal observation, which can be seen in my choice of the words "I've found"? I'm merely sharing what I have observed. The fact that my observations differ from yours does not invalidate either mine or yours. Besides, nothing you said contradicts anything I've said.

Actually it does.

No, all Punch did was cite a few of those specific exceptions to the rule I intended to establish by my use of the word "generally".

You are wrong in general.
Feel free to share with us those exceptions you have seen.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline genesisone

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,656
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Why do I cross myself? It's a prayer spoken by the hand rather than by the lips. And I'm reminded of the verse Mark 12:30 (NKJV):
Quote
And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.
When I cross myself, I touch my forehead (mind), my stomach/gut (soul) (as in "I have a gut feeling"), across my shoulders (physical strength) and in so doing the lines I trace with my fingers intersect at my heart. It places me next to the cross where I need to remember to be. It's a sign that declares my faith to myself and others: not only what I've already mentioned, but three fingers together for the Trinity, two fingers for the two natures of Christ.

Offline recent convert

  • Orthodox Chrisitan
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,000
  • St.David of Wales pray for us
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
However, where I disagree with Fountain Pen is that I believe that the Church and its rituals are not to blame for this.  The Church is a hospital, and it is where the sick and suffering belong.  However, those who do not follow the Doctor's orders will never get better, and often they will get worse.  This is not the fault of the Doctor and the medicine.  While the Scriptures teach us that everyone is sick and in need of healing, not all are as sick as others.  Some do not even recognize that they are sick.  If they are able to function that way, and by function, I mean follow the Law of God, then who are we to judge them; particularly so when we are to sick to even do what they do?  I have to say that I agree very much with a lot that Fountain Pen has written here.  I just happen to find a different root cause for the problem than Fountain Pen has.

I don't know that i'd say rituals are directly to blame but i don't think so many rituals help.

I'd be really interested to know what the root is that you've found though.
Again, what difference does it make how much time is spent in worship vs. time spent in serving mankind (in some capacity)? If one is a Pentecostal & spends 1 hour & 45 min. in Sunday service vs. an Orthodox who spends about the same time in worship crossing oneself, prostrations etc. but both individuals show concern for others, what does it matter? (laying doctrine aside for the sake of argument).

Yes, would it be better if we didn't cross ourselves at the invocation of the Trinity, or when we called Christ blessed, or mention the resurrection or the crucifixion, or ask petitions of saints? Or perhaps there would be a better activity for our hands to do during worship, like wave them in the air and draw attention to ourselves like some are fond of doing in other circles?
I was just being hypothetical & not trying to make a value judgement in an example. I do not want to endorse other non Orthodox worship or deride it.
Antiochian OC N.A.

Offline quietmorning

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,415
  • St. Photini
    • Whispers Written - a friends only journal - pm to be added.
Why do I cross myself? It's a prayer spoken by the hand rather than by the lips. And I'm reminded of the verse Mark 12:30 (NKJV):
Quote
And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.
When I cross myself, I touch my forehead (mind), my stomach/gut (soul) (as in "I have a gut feeling"), across my shoulders (physical strength) and in so doing the lines I trace with my fingers intersect at my heart. It places me next to the cross where I need to remember to be. It's a sign that declares my faith to myself and others: not only what I've already mentioned, but three fingers together for the Trinity, two fingers for the two natures of Christ.

In addition to this, my actions - no matter what they are, are reminded that I walk, think, breathe, BE in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  This in itself gives me pause.
In His Mercy,
BethAnna

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,801
However, where I disagree with Fountain Pen is that I believe that the Church and its rituals are not to blame for this.  The Church is a hospital, and it is where the sick and suffering belong.  However, those who do not follow the Doctor's orders will never get better, and often they will get worse.  This is not the fault of the Doctor and the medicine.  While the Scriptures teach us that everyone is sick and in need of healing, not all are as sick as others.  Some do not even recognize that they are sick.  If they are able to function that way, and by function, I mean follow the Law of God, then who are we to judge them; particularly so when we are to sick to even do what they do?  I have to say that I agree very much with a lot that Fountain Pen has written here.  I just happen to find a different root cause for the problem than Fountain Pen has.

I don't know that i'd say rituals are directly to blame but i don't think so many rituals help.

I'd be really interested to know what the root is that you've found though.

The root cause?  That we know what is right as taught to us by the Church, the Scriptures, and the Lives of the Saints.  We simply refuse to do it.  That is not the fault of the Church.    

Do we need the ritual?  No.  But does it hurt?  I think that depends on what is inside of us.  If we have a desire to please God, then we will both worship Him in the manner that he has set down, AND we will follow that up by keeping His commandments toward one another.  If we have no desire to please God, what does it matter anyway?  I find that the ritual keeps the commands of God fresh in front of me.  That is my illness and my cure.  That you do not feel this necessity does not make me think any better or worse of you, any more than you having any other illness that is different than mine.  Why should it?  
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,822
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
FountainPen,

I can only speak for myself, but these rituals help me, a grave sinner, to reorient my life on at least a weekly basis.  I suck.  I know I do.  I constantly find myself doing that which I do not want to do and not doing that which I want to.  These rituals help me to remember that.  If they help for but an hour before I fall again, that's an hour I spend with my mind on the Lord rather than the filth of my own mind.  Were my faith as great as yours, I would not need them.  

But I do.

Please forgive me for my weakness.

False humility doesn't suit you Schultz. Maybe you should get your mind off yourself then you wouldn't need all your rituals.
I have to say that I'm a lot like shultz here. I suck too. I'm a real sinner, and my mind is quite bound to the things of the Earth. If I need to make the sign of the cross or pray the prayers of the Church to raise my mind to God, you'll have to forgive me. I'm not Immaculately Conceived. :)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 03:13:06 PM by Papist »
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline elephant

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 693
Dear FountainPen,

Prayer is a sacrifice offered to God.  It is also a great service to mankind.  It is also very very difficult. 

St.  Silouan the Athonite expressed this in a simple way:  ‘Praying for people means shedding blood' and 'The greater the love, the greater the suffering’  Saint Silouan the Athonite

love, elephant



Offline Peter J

  • Formerly PJ
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,268
  • Faith: Melkite Catholic
FountainPen,

I can only speak for myself, but these rituals help me, a grave sinner, to reorient my life on at least a weekly basis.  I suck.  I know I do.  I constantly find myself doing that which I do not want to do and not doing that which I want to.  These rituals help me to remember that.  If they help for but an hour before I fall again, that's an hour I spend with my mind on the Lord rather than the filth of my own mind.  Were my faith as great as yours, I would not need them.  

But I do.

Please forgive me for my weakness.

False humility doesn't suit you Schultz. Maybe you should get your mind off yourself then you wouldn't need all your rituals.
I have to say that I'm a lot like shultz here. I suck too. I'm a real sinner, and my mind is quite bound to the things of the Earth. If I need to make the sign of the cross or pray the prayers of the Church to raise my mind to God, you'll have to forgive me. I'm not Immaculately Conceived. :)

I think I would call it sarcasm rather than false humility.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline biro

  • Excelsior
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,526
  • Leave me alone, I was only singing
    • Alaska Volcanoes
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Revelation 9:4

And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree: but only the men who have not the sign of God on their foreheads.


(emphasis mine)


See? The Bible does tell us to do it.

What 'sign' most reminds people of Christ, our God?

You're welcome.
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

--

And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Offline quietmorning

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,415
  • St. Photini
    • Whispers Written - a friends only journal - pm to be added.
Fountain Pen,

I can't answer all of your questions, but I can give you a reason . . . or an experience that I went through that gave specific meaning and place for 'ritualistic' prayers and worship.  I hope you will take this as someone who is not trying to attack you - but perhaps another perspective might help you to see why others do it, even if it is not the choice of your own.  

I was raised RC - and I loved the Mass - absolutely loved it, but it was never enough.  It just wasn't enough - so as an adult I started participating in non denominational churches. . . but that wasn't enough, either. . . .so I went to both the RC and the non denominational services . . . and that wasn't enough either - so I started going to the church of my own heart and stayed there.  No walls, no rituals. . .nothing but prayer and reading my bible.  I did this for nearly a decade.  Nine years, nine months -  to be exact.  What I found is that that wasn't enough either.  I had no guidance, no nurturing from my brothers and sisters. . . slowly, like a frog in a frying pan, or a lobster being boiled. . . I stopped reading my bible every day.  Then I stopped praying every day.  Then I stopped reading for long long breaks.  Then I stopped praying except when things were going really really bad - and they got VERY bad.  Then the only prayer I could pray was "Lord please, I'm begging you, have mercy on me.". . .because things got incredibly horribly the worst kind of bad - BAD.  And I didn't read my bible at all, because I was too busy trying to survive.  I couldn't even pray the Our Father. . .

Ritualistic prayer taught me how to pray again.  If my heart is in the wrong place, and I need His help, but I don't have the words to ask for help, then I can pray a prayer the early church Fathers, or the Saints, or King David or the Lord Himself (The Our Father) wrote.  The bible never changes - the book of Psalms never changes. . .the Our Father never changes.  We pray these prayers as they are every time - either with a full heart or a distracted one.  It is up to us to humble ourselves to hope in Him to allow us to pray with a full heart.  To pray from the heart is different from praying from the head.  When we pray from our minds, then we lose the context of God.  If we pray with our hearts, then He is there helping us to understand the fullness of that context.  My word, the Our Father is an incredibly powerful prayer, yet most just mumble along in it. . . because they have not allowed God to show them HOW to properly pray with the heart.  If I pray with my mind, then I cannot do another thing as the prayer itself becomes a distraction.  If I pray with my heart - then wow. . . nothing is distracted, I can still serve. . .and serve in His Spirit. . . by His Spirit, which is how it should be.  

For the first time in my life - I go to church and I'm fed. . . truly fed. . .and deeply fed. . .and it's enough.  I leave able to give.  ABLE to give. . .and before?  I was too hungry to give, and give truly, deeply and sincerely.  I gave out of my strength. . .now I can say that giving it out of His strength, not mine.  Yet I partake in a liturgical setting of tradition and ritual. . .every single ritual has meaning.  It's those who assume the meaning that cannot apply the meaning properly.  It's rich and wow. . .so very breathtakingly beautiful.  But moreso, the fruit is good.  It is GOOD - the ultimate test we are to look for.  

Maybe, one day, when I'm healed enough, and the Holy Spirit teaches me to pray without arrogance, maybe I'll be back to praying as I used to so very long ago.  But it will be without pride, IF it ever happens again.  Pride suffers a huge debt.  The fall from it for His little ones is completely shattering.

God gives us prayer, and He can take it away in a heartbeat if He so chooses.  He gives us the ability to Worship, and He can take it away in a heartbeat, if He so chooses.  He gives us our brothers and sisters and our leadership (which was often my own problem - an issue with authority) and He can take it away if He so chooses.  There is nothing so painful than to understand that one has truly cut themselves off from the nurturing vine that holds it.  We are blind deaf and dumb. . .and often don't know we're dying until we get long past.  It is our own pride that tells Him how we are going to pray. . .what feels good. . . if I don't feel this or that then I must have sinned or something of that nature.  

But He is faithful, and He will show you.  You are His.  

Please, for your sake, remember that Christ came to build His church.  He said to Love one Another, we cannot love one another if we never meet them.  
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 04:54:27 PM by quietmorning »
In His Mercy,
BethAnna

Offline akimori makoto

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,126
  • No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...
Priest: Then, when he had come and fulfilled the whole of the divine dispensation for us, on the night that he was given up, or, rather, gave himself up for the life of the world, he took bread in his holy, pure and blameless hands and, when he had blessed it, hallowed it and broken it, he gave it to his disciples saying "take, eat, this is my body, which is broken for you for the remission of sins".

People: Amen.

Priest: In like manner, when the supper was ended, he took the cup and gave it to his disciples saying "drink of this, all of you, this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for you and for many for the remission of sins".

People: Amen.

Priest: Remembering, therefore, this our Saviour's command, and everything that has come to pass for us: the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting at the right hand and the second and glorious coming again -- your own of your own, we offer unto you, on behalf of all and for all.

----------------------------------------------

Where's the problem?

FountainPen, so I can understand you better, can you please explain what part of the above is objectionable?

Please feel free to include the "ritual actions" that accompany the words in your criticisms, but please let's just stick to those for now.

I think if we dialogue in this way, taking a limited slice of liturgical life as our focal point, we can arrive at some mutual understanding.

Empty ritualism v. liturgical chaos is too unwieldy a theme.

I did take a slice, i asked specifically about crossing yourself. Is this a command? No. Jesus literally walked to his death carrying his cross. Does this mean we are to make the sign of a cross on our bodies? No, of course not. We are to die to self, that is why this means.

Okay, well taking the sign of the cross as the example ...

I would like to know if you distinguish between making the sign in a personal moment of prayerfulness or thankfulness or reverence v. at appointed or prescribed times in an appointed or prescribed manner.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
FountainPen, a denomination of one.  :D
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
FountainPen,

I can only speak for myself, but these rituals help me, a grave sinner, to reorient my life on at least a weekly basis.  I suck.  I know I do.  I constantly find myself doing that which I do not want to do and not doing that which I want to.  These rituals help me to remember that.  If they help for but an hour before I fall again, that's an hour I spend with my mind on the Lord rather than the filth of my own mind.  Were my faith as great as yours, I would not need them.  

But I do.

Please forgive me for my weakness.

False humility doesn't suit you Schultz. Maybe you should get your mind off yourself then you wouldn't need all your rituals.
I have to say that I'm a lot like shultz here. I suck too. I'm a real sinner, and my mind is quite bound to the things of the Earth. If I need to make the sign of the cross or pray the prayers of the Church to raise my mind to God, you'll have to forgive me. I'm not Immaculately Conceived. :)

I think you will find alot of us here with this opinion of ourselves during lent...

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
"Rationalistic disapproval of the formal worship prescribed by church rubrics is characteristic of some forms of Protestantism.  It is a lack of faith in the Church, a lack of faith that its life can fill all kinds of forms, giving them eternal meaning." - Sergei Fudel, Icons and Church Services: Joys and Difficulties.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,822
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
FountainPen,

I can only speak for myself, but these rituals help me, a grave sinner, to reorient my life on at least a weekly basis.  I suck.  I know I do.  I constantly find myself doing that which I do not want to do and not doing that which I want to.  These rituals help me to remember that.  If they help for but an hour before I fall again, that's an hour I spend with my mind on the Lord rather than the filth of my own mind.  Were my faith as great as yours, I would not need them.  

But I do.

Please forgive me for my weakness.

False humility doesn't suit you Schultz. Maybe you should get your mind off yourself then you wouldn't need all your rituals.
I have to say that I'm a lot like shultz here. I suck too. I'm a real sinner, and my mind is quite bound to the things of the Earth. If I need to make the sign of the cross or pray the prayers of the Church to raise my mind to God, you'll have to forgive me. I'm not Immaculately Conceived. :)

I think you will find alot of us here with this opinion of ourselves during lent...
And people don't understand why we experience joy during lent.  ;D Personally there is nothing more freeing to me than to know that I am wreched sinner, but that God loves me anyway and is doing everything possible to get me into heaven. :)
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
"People who believe in God in their own way, yet do not believe in the Church, often say, "Does God really need all this ritual?  Why do we have to have all these formalities?  We only need love, beauty, and humaneness." A man, on his way to the woman he loves, seeing flowers, buys them or picks them and brings them to her, never stopping to think whether this is a formality or not.  Yet this is the very concept of church ritual." - Sergei Fudel, Icons and Church Services: Joys and Difficulties
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Fountain Pen,

I can't answer all of your questions, but I can give you a reason . . . or an experience that I went through that gave specific meaning and place for 'ritualistic' prayers and worship.  I hope you will take this as someone who is not trying to attack you - but perhaps another perspective might help you to see why others do it, even if it is not the choice of your own.  

I was raised RC - and I loved the Mass - absolutely loved it, but it was never enough.  It just wasn't enough - so as an adult I started participating in non denominational churches. . . but that wasn't enough, either. . . .so I went to both the RC and the non denominational services . . . and that wasn't enough either - so I started going to the church of my own heart and stayed there.  No walls, no rituals. . .nothing but prayer and reading my bible.  I did this for nearly a decade.  Nine years, nine months -  to be exact.  What I found is that that wasn't enough either.  I had no guidance, no nurturing from my brothers and sisters. . . slowly, like a frog in a frying pan, or a lobster being boiled. . . I stopped reading my bible every day.  Then I stopped praying every day.  Then I stopped reading for long long breaks.  Then I stopped praying except when things were going really really bad - and they got VERY bad.  Then the only prayer I could pray was "Lord please, I'm begging you, have mercy on me.". . .because things got incredibly horribly the worst kind of bad - BAD.  And I didn't read my bible at all, because I was too busy trying to survive.  I couldn't even pray the Our Father. . .

Ritualistic prayer taught me how to pray again.  If my heart is in the wrong place, and I need His help, but I don't have the words to ask for help, then I can pray a prayer the early church Fathers, or the Saints, or King David or the Lord Himself (The Our Father) wrote.  The bible never changes - the book of Psalms never changes. . .the Our Father never changes.  We pray these prayers as they are every time - either with a full heart or a distracted one.  It is up to us to humble ourselves to hope in Him to allow us to pray with a full heart.  To pray from the heart is different from praying from the head.  When we pray from our minds, then we lose the context of God.  If we pray with our hearts, then He is there helping us to understand the fullness of that context.  My word, the Our Father is an incredibly powerful prayer, yet most just mumble along in it. . . because they have not allowed God to show them HOW to properly pray with the heart.  If I pray with my mind, then I cannot do another thing as the prayer itself becomes a distraction.  If I pray with my heart - then wow. . . nothing is distracted, I can still serve. . .and serve in His Spirit. . . by His Spirit, which is how it should be.  

For the first time in my life - I go to church and I'm fed. . . truly fed. . .and deeply fed. . .and it's enough.  I leave able to give.  ABLE to give. . .and before?  I was too hungry to give, and give truly, deeply and sincerely.  I gave out of my strength. . .now I can say that giving it out of His strength, not mine.  Yet I partake in a liturgical setting of tradition and ritual. . .every single ritual has meaning.  It's those who assume the meaning that cannot apply the meaning properly.  It's rich and wow. . .so very breathtakingly beautiful.  But moreso, the fruit is good.  It is GOOD - the ultimate test we are to look for.  

Maybe, one day, when I'm healed enough, and the Holy Spirit teaches me to pray without arrogance, maybe I'll be back to praying as I used to so very long ago.  But it will be without pride, IF it ever happens again.  Pride suffers a huge debt.  The fall from it for His little ones is completely shattering.

God gives us prayer, and He can take it away in a heartbeat if He so chooses.  He gives us the ability to Worship, and He can take it away in a heartbeat, if He so chooses.  He gives us our brothers and sisters and our leadership (which was often my own problem - an issue with authority) and He can take it away if He so chooses.  There is nothing so painful than to understand that one has truly cut themselves off from the nurturing vine that holds it.  We are blind deaf and dumb. . .and often don't know we're dying until we get long past.  It is our own pride that tells Him how we are going to pray. . .what feels good. . . if I don't feel this or that then I must have sinned or something of that nature.  

But He is faithful, and He will show you.  You are His.  

Please, for your sake, remember that Christ came to build His church.  He said to Love one Another, we cannot love one another if we never meet them.  


That's a beautiful testimony and thank you for sharing it quietmorning. I do relate to some parts of it and understand why you hold certain practices as precious because they have been of personal help to you in the strengthening of your spiritual life.

I don't see the church primarily as a hospital so it is hard to always keep this in mind when reading what Orthodox people are about and this is probably why i disagree with so many rituals too, which i hadn't realised until i read your post. For me, it's a problematic concept right from the start but you've given me much more to think through. #smile

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Priest: Then, when he had come and fulfilled the whole of the divine dispensation for us, on the night that he was given up, or, rather, gave himself up for the life of the world, he took bread in his holy, pure and blameless hands and, when he had blessed it, hallowed it and broken it, he gave it to his disciples saying "take, eat, this is my body, which is broken for you for the remission of sins".

People: Amen.

Priest: In like manner, when the supper was ended, he took the cup and gave it to his disciples saying "drink of this, all of you, this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for you and for many for the remission of sins".

People: Amen.

Priest: Remembering, therefore, this our Saviour's command, and everything that has come to pass for us: the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting at the right hand and the second and glorious coming again -- your own of your own, we offer unto you, on behalf of all and for all.

----------------------------------------------

Where's the problem?

FountainPen, so I can understand you better, can you please explain what part of the above is objectionable?

Please feel free to include the "ritual actions" that accompany the words in your criticisms, but please let's just stick to those for now.

I think if we dialogue in this way, taking a limited slice of liturgical life as our focal point, we can arrive at some mutual understanding.

Empty ritualism v. liturgical chaos is too unwieldy a theme.

I did take a slice, i asked specifically about crossing yourself. Is this a command? No. Jesus literally walked to his death carrying his cross. Does this mean we are to make the sign of a cross on our bodies? No, of course not. We are to die to self, that is why this means.

Okay, well taking the sign of the cross as the example ...

I would like to know if you distinguish between making the sign in a personal moment of prayerfulness or thankfulness or reverence v. at appointed or prescribed times in an appointed or prescribed manner.

Akimori, i might i be mentally unwell if i started adding certain rituals to my day such as handwashing, checking doors making sure they are shut, touching light switches 20 times or stepping over a threshold three times before i can shut the door. It's not the one thing that i might do or the reason that i might have for what i do -- which might sound incredibly plausible -- but the behaviours collectively can become problematic and can be a sign of somethng more sinister. I'm not suggesting that Orthodox Christians are mentally unwell but i'm suggesting that there is a line where rituals can be problematic to us even though we feel we might have good reasons for them.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline Nicene

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 625
im still having a hard time trying understand how they are problematic...
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 06:27:30 AM by Nicene »
Thank you.

Offline Peter J

  • Formerly PJ
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,268
  • Faith: Melkite Catholic
I don't see the church primarily as a hospital

Really? The idea of the church as a "hospital for sinners" is common to Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Mivac

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 247
Quote
Quote from: Ortho_Cat
Quote
Quote from: FountainPen
Where/when/by whom was the practice was first recorded?

Jesus was the first to take up his cross...we are called to follow him, and doing this reminds us of that.

We are told to take up our cross, not to perform ritualised hand movements merely to remind us of what Jesus did.

Why clog the Christian life with rituals piled high on top of one another and then to discuss how many times we're all supposed to do them or in what way we do them? Doesn't life have enough real challenges in it for you (the Church)? The world is going to hell in a handbasket while we all colours of robes, liturgies, incense and prostrations while we (the various Churches) could be discussing how we can organise ourselves to aid the current issues of drug abuse, alcoholism and promiscuity.

Good grief, that we should all fill our lives with rituals!

Rituals are not pointless or meaningless, it is that which binds us in Love.  In my marriage, I have rituals I do concerning my wife such as getting her coffee ready in the morning for work.  It seems like nothing but it is something that binds and can be counted on.

Now also reading though the thread I think the problem is that we fundamentally disagree on exactly who Christ Jesus is to the world and each of us.   Christ Jesus came in the flesh, His incarnation, the Church in a profound mystery is the continued incarnation of our Lord.  These rituals, that are universally accepted long before your sect was born, are in there essence given by Christ Jesus Himself, he being mysteriously the Church also, for our benefit and the world.  We are both Body and Soul, the rituals are given for us, to tame our bodies to submit to the soul and the eye of the soul kept on God the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, it being a living Worship of God.  The reason being is that in the fall our bodies took control and ruled over our soul, those who enter into Christ are working with Him to reverse that damage, drawing us into a closer, deeper, communion with our Lord and rituals have always been part of that process.

As a former Baptist, I thought they were empty, until I started practicing them but that truly can't be explained until on experiences the rituals as they are meant.  This is how I see it, but if I am in error I am sure someone will correct me.

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
The first mention of Christians making the sign of the Cross is in the 2nd Century by Tertullian who said: "In all our travels and movements, in all our coming in and going out, in putting of our shoes, at the bath, at the table, in lighting our candles, in lying down, in sitting down, whatever employment occupieth us, we mark our foreheads with the sign of the cross" (De cor. Mil., iii).

It seems this was a well established practice by the time Tertullian mentioned it here.

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
I don't see the church primarily as a hospital

Really? The idea of the church as a "hospital for sinners" is common to Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike.

Goody! I'm a person.
Expressing my personal view.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 02:57:31 PM by FountainPen »
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,822
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
I don't see the church primarily as a hospital

Really? The idea of the church as a "hospital for sinners" is common to Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike.

Goody! I'm a person.
Expressing my personal view.
Well, your personal view is foreign to historical Christianity.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 03:15:38 PM by Papist »
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
I don't see the church primarily as a hospital

Really? The idea of the church as a "hospital for sinners" is common to Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike.

Goody! I'm a person.
Expressing my personal view.

so what do you consider it to be then?

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,395
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)

I'm not suggesting that Orthodox Christians are mentally unwell but i'm suggesting that there is a line where rituals can be problematic to us even though we feel we might have good reasons for them.

Can you walk and chew gum at the same time?  :D

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
I don't see the church primarily as a hospital

Really? The idea of the church as a "hospital for sinners" is common to Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike.

Goody! I'm a person.
Expressing my personal view.

so what do you consider it to be then?

I have no idea Ortho Cat, i really don't. I have never thought of the church in any way other than a functioning body of working parts that make up a whole with Christ as the head.

I can see there being problems when you make the church into a hospital.

Similar to the problems you have when you make celebrities in church, you set a focused identity and you will create an unhealthy environment where people can often stay stuck.

Churches with a 'celebrity' culture will often have cartoon-tie Christians clamouring for center stage with their latest ministry.

You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 03:18:27 PM by FountainPen »
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,375
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
Similar to the problems you have when you make celebrities in church, you set a focused identity and you will create an unhealthy environment where people can often stay stuck.

Churches with a 'celebrity' culture will often have cartoon-tie Christians clamouring for center stage with their latest ministry.

You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
I don't think that's the hospital mentality failing.

I think it's a hipster/self-authority mentality.

I'm from Seattle, one of the hipster meccas of the world. What you have just described is how every church in my area functions, to the extreme. The main goal is to troll for... well, I suppose on this forum I'll have to say 'women', and attention, via awkward and unconvincing demagoguery. The only churches in my area that do not are some of the catholic and Orthodox churches, and churches that are part of an unfashionable protestant denomination (southern baptist, classical evangelical, etc.)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 03:32:04 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline dzheremi

  • No longer posting here.
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,383
I can see there being problems when you make the church into a hospital.

Similar to the problems you have when you make celebrities in church, you set a focused identity and you will create an unhealthy environment where people can often stay stuck.

What does this mean?

Quote
Churches with a 'celebrity' culture will often have cartoon-tie Christians clamouring for center stage with their latest ministry.

"Celebrity" culture in church? Do you mean like the televangelist thing, or how we pay respect to our priests and bishops? Because I think it's easy to mix up the two if you're not actually in the church.

Quote
You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.

Yes. Treatment, medicine, and with the power of God, healing.

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
if we don't go to church to be healed and spiritually fed, restoring our wholeness in Christ, what do we go there for? socializing? to show each other how saintly we are? Seriously...I don't see the alternative here...  ???

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Similar to the problems you have when you make celebrities in church, you set a focused identity and you will create an unhealthy environment where people can often stay stuck.

Churches with a 'celebrity' culture will often have cartoon-tie Christians clamouring for center stage with their latest ministry.

You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
I don't think that's the hospital mentality failing.

I think it's a hipster/self-authority mentality.

I'm from Seattle, one of the hipster meccas of the world. What you have just described is how every church in my area functions, to the extreme. The main goal is to troll for... well, I suppose on this forum I'll have to say 'women', and attention, via awkward and unconvincing demagoguery. The only churches in my area that do not are some of the catholic and Orthodox churches, and churches that are part of an unfashionable protestant denomination (southern baptist, classical evangelical, etc.)

I agree, there are other healthy ways a spiritual hospital could function but i don't see the need for the hospital at the moment. Given the scriptures mention that we run the race, why not have an Olympics identity? Our identity as Christians isn't soley that we are sick, it's much more than that. i don't see the necessity and i just think, given fallen humanity the propensity for staying sick, as it were, is hoooge!
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
if we don't go to church to be healed and spiritually fed, restoring our wholeness in Christ, what do we go there for? socializing? to show each other how saintly we are? Seriously...I don't see the alternative here...  ???

Go there to the church building, i guess my answer would be... to gather.

Why do we gather? I suppose to edify and encourage each other in Christ.

I do not believe we go to a church building to worship God. Like i have expressed before, i believe worship is what you do all week.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.


We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025

I'm not suggesting that Orthodox Christians are mentally unwell but i'm suggesting that there is a line where rituals can be problematic to us even though we feel we might have good reasons for them.

Can you walk and chew gum at the same time?  :D

No, however, i can do a handstand while reciting Lago's soliloquy  ;D
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,822
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Similar to the problems you have when you make celebrities in church, you set a focused identity and you will create an unhealthy environment where people can often stay stuck.

Churches with a 'celebrity' culture will often have cartoon-tie Christians clamouring for center stage with their latest ministry.

You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
I don't think that's the hospital mentality failing.

I think it's a hipster/self-authority mentality.

I'm from Seattle, one of the hipster meccas of the world. What you have just described is how every church in my area functions, to the extreme. The main goal is to troll for... well, I suppose on this forum I'll have to say 'women', and attention, via awkward and unconvincing demagoguery. The only churches in my area that do not are some of the catholic and Orthodox churches, and churches that are part of an unfashionable protestant denomination (southern baptist, classical evangelical, etc.)

I agree, there are other healthy ways a spiritual hospital could function but i don't see the need for the hospital at the moment. Given the scriptures mention that we run the race, why not have an Olympics identity? Our identity as Christians isn't soley that we are sick, it's much more than that. i don't see the necessity and i just think, given fallen humanity the propensity for staying sick, as it were, is hoooge!
The analogies are not mutually exclusive. In both cases you are talking about people improving their health. You are positing a false dichotomy.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,822
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
if we don't go to church to be healed and spiritually fed, restoring our wholeness in Christ, what do we go there for? socializing? to show each other how saintly we are? Seriously...I don't see the alternative here...  ???

Go there to the church building, i guess my answer would be... to gather.

Why do we gather? I suppose to edify and encourage each other in Christ.

I do not believe we go to a church building to worship God. Like i have expressed before, i believe worship is what you do all week.
That's interesting, because I think that everything we do is worship of God, including meeting on sunday to sing hymns of praise, and being united to him in the sacrament of his Body and Blood.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.


We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?

Christ is not only Jehovah Rapha but Jehovah Sabaoth, Jehovah Shammah, Jehovah Jireh etc...

I wouldn't single out that relationship as central.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
If only it stopped at adding one though Delphine.
Can't have too much of a good thang, darlin'.

We humans get along okay with having to remember all those tricky, complex and monotonous processes like breathing, circulating blood, moving our limbs in sleep, blinking, etc.

I think we can handle a few movements and practices without becoming isolated, pharisaical zomboids.

Given just how many people aren't even aware of the existence of Orthodoxy, i'd say the message aint' gettin' out there too well shweetie.

What good has knowledge of our existence done you?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Quote
Quote from: Ortho_Cat
Quote
Quote from: FountainPen
Where/when/by whom was the practice was first recorded?

Jesus was the first to take up his cross...we are called to follow him, and doing this reminds us of that.

We are told to take up our cross, not to perform ritualised hand movements merely to remind us of what Jesus did.

Why clog the Christian life with rituals piled high on top of one another and then to discuss how many times we're all supposed to do them or in what way we do them? Doesn't life have enough real challenges in it for you (the Church)? The world is going to hell in a handbasket while we all colours of robes, liturgies, incense and prostrations while we (the various Churches) could be discussing how we can organise ourselves to aid the current issues of drug abuse, alcoholism and promiscuity.

Good grief, that we should all fill our lives with rituals!

Do this in remembrance of Me


But they're wearing funny robes. Is that really necessary?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
If only it stopped at adding one though Delphine.
Can't have too much of a good thang, darlin'.

We humans get along okay with having to remember all those tricky, complex and monotonous processes like breathing, circulating blood, moving our limbs in sleep, blinking, etc.

I think we can handle a few movements and practices without becoming isolated, pharisaical zomboids.

Given just how many people aren't even aware of the existence of Orthodoxy, i'd say the message aint' gettin' out there too well shweetie.

What good has knowledge of our existence done you?

I think it's reinforced my resolve about beards.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
If only it stopped at adding one though Delphine.
Can't have too much of a good thang, darlin'.

We humans get along okay with having to remember all those tricky, complex and monotonous processes like breathing, circulating blood, moving our limbs in sleep, blinking, etc.

I think we can handle a few movements and practices without becoming isolated, pharisaical zomboids.

Given just how many people aren't even aware of the existence of Orthodoxy, i'd say the message aint' gettin' out there too well shweetie.

What good has knowledge of our existence done you?

I think it's reinforced my resolve about beards.

Okay. So, clearly nothing needful to your salvation. Why are you here?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.


We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?

Christ is not only Jehovah Rapha but Jehovah Sabaoth, Jehovah Shammah, Jehovah Jireh etc...

I wouldn't single out that relationship as central.
Could you say all that again in plain English, please?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,375
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
Given the scriptures mention that we run the race, why not have an Olympics identity?
I thought we did.

Our identity as Christians isn't soley that we are sick, it's much more than that. i don't see the necessity and i just think, given fallen humanity the propensity for staying sick, as it were, is hoooge!
I think you're confusing a "hospital" mentality with a "hospice" mentality.

i don't see the need for the hospital at the moment.
Really?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 06:19:26 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
If only it stopped at adding one though Delphine.
Can't have too much of a good thang, darlin'.

We humans get along okay with having to remember all those tricky, complex and monotonous processes like breathing, circulating blood, moving our limbs in sleep, blinking, etc.

I think we can handle a few movements and practices without becoming isolated, pharisaical zomboids.

Given just how many people aren't even aware of the existence of Orthodoxy, i'd say the message aint' gettin' out there too well shweetie.

What good has knowledge of our existence done you?

I think it's reinforced my resolve about beards.

Okay. So, clearly nothing needful to your salvation.
That depends if Jesus had a beard.

Quote
Why are you here?
Same reason as you.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Given the scriptures mention that we run the race, why not have an Olympics identity?
I thought we did.

Our identity as Christians isn't soley that we are sick, it's much more than that. i don't see the necessity and i just think, given fallen humanity the propensity for staying sick, as it were, is hoooge!
I think you're confusing a "hospital" mentality with a "hospice" mentality.

Yes, we do.

No i don't think i am. I think the hospital identity is unhelpful and unbalanced.


EDIT: yes really
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 06:21:34 PM by FountainPen »
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,375
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
No i don't think i am. I think the hospital identity is unhelpful and unbalanced.

It's not really unbalanced except on the internet in this thread. I hear ascesis (the olympics mentality) more often than I do the hospital one.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 06:22:27 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Given the scriptures mention that we run the race, why not have an Olympics identity?
I thought we did.

Our identity as Christians isn't soley that we are sick, it's much more than that. i don't see the necessity and i just think, given fallen humanity the propensity for staying sick, as it were, is hoooge!
I think you're confusing a "hospital" mentality with a "hospice" mentality.

Yes, we do.

No i don't think i am. I think the hospital identity is unhelpful and unbalanced.
Can you explain why, please?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.


We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?

Christ is not only Jehovah Rapha but Jehovah Sabaoth, Jehovah Shammah, Jehovah Jireh etc...

I wouldn't single out that relationship as central.
Could you say all that again in plain English, please?

Our relationship with Christ is much more than Jesus our physician.

Jesus our provider, our peace, our protector et al. He has many names and titles no one is central.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Quote
Why are you here?
Same reason as you.
[/quote]

No, I don't think so. I can't recall having begun a thread about how the Church is wrong.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.


We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?

Christ is not only Jehovah Rapha but Jehovah Sabaoth, Jehovah Shammah, Jehovah Jireh etc...

I wouldn't single out that relationship as central.
Could you say all that again in plain English, please?

Our relationship with Christ is much more than Jesus our physician.

Jesus our provider, our peace, our protector et al. He has many names and titles no one is central.
Did anyone here say that we see Jesus only or primarily as our Physician?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Given the scriptures mention that we run the race, why not have an Olympics identity?
I thought we did.

Our identity as Christians isn't soley that we are sick, it's much more than that. i don't see the necessity and i just think, given fallen humanity the propensity for staying sick, as it were, is hoooge!
I think you're confusing a "hospital" mentality with a "hospice" mentality.

Yes, we do.

No i don't think i am. I think the hospital identity is unhelpful and unbalanced.
Can you explain why, please?

For the reasons i've already given!

Why should it be central? Christ is not simply our physician, our healer he is much more besides and any attempt to focus in on one will cause an inbalance in our relationship with Christ and on a local church level -- group dynamics and all that malarky, it's a breeding ground for more dysfunction.

Tired, sorry. That's the best answer you'll get until tomorrow morning.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,375
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.


We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?

Christ is not only Jehovah Rapha but Jehovah Sabaoth, Jehovah Shammah, Jehovah Jireh etc...

I wouldn't single out that relationship as central.
Could you say all that again in plain English, please?

Our relationship with Christ is much more than Jesus our physician.

Jesus our provider, our peace, our protector et al. He has many names and titles no one is central.
Did anyone here say that we see Jesus only or primarily as our Physician?

The church is a hospital for sinners is stated a lot. I haven't read that the church is 'insert anything else' stated as often, if at all.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline akimori makoto

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,126
  • No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...
You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.


We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?

Christ is not only Jehovah Rapha but Jehovah Sabaoth, Jehovah Shammah, Jehovah Jireh etc...

I wouldn't single out that relationship as central.
Could you say all that again in plain English, please?

Our relationship with Christ is much more than Jesus our physician.

Jesus our provider, our peace, our protector et al. He has many names and titles no one is central.
Did anyone here say that we see Jesus only or primarily as our Physician?

The church is a hospital for sinners is stated a lot. I haven't read that the church is 'insert anything else' stated as often, if at all.

I like to say pillar and ground of the truth a lot.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,375
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
"The Arena".
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Online PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,481
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.


We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?

Christ is not only Jehovah Rapha but Jehovah Sabaoth, Jehovah Shammah, Jehovah Jireh etc...

I wouldn't single out that relationship as central.
Could you say all that again in plain English, please?

Our relationship with Christ is much more than Jesus our physician.

Jesus our provider, our peace, our protector et al. He has many names and titles no one is central.
Did anyone here say that we see Jesus only or primarily as our Physician?

The church is a hospital for sinners is stated a lot.
By whom?

I haven't read that the church is 'insert anything else' stated as often, if at all.
What sources have you read?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.


We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?

Christ is not only Jehovah Rapha but Jehovah Sabaoth, Jehovah Shammah, Jehovah Jireh etc...

I wouldn't single out that relationship as central.
Could you say all that again in plain English, please?

Our relationship with Christ is much more than Jesus our physician.

Jesus our provider, our peace, our protector et al. He has many names and titles no one is central.
Did anyone here say that we see Jesus only or primarily as our Physician?

The church is a hospital for sinners is stated a lot. I haven't read that the church is 'insert anything else' stated as often, if at all.

And what, exactly, is your experience of Orthodoxy? The Internet? Books?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
I don't see the church primarily as a hospital

Really? The idea of the church as a "hospital for sinners" is common to Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike.

Goody! I'm a person.
Expressing my personal view.

so what do you consider it to be then?

I have no idea Ortho Cat, i really don't. I have never thought of the church in any way other than a functioning body of working parts that make up a whole with Christ as the head.

FountainPen, do body parts normally do their own thing, without any other part knowing what that thing is?  Because it seems to me that if my left hand is changing the channel on the television, while my right hand is writing a letter, and my eyes are watching my dog chase his tail, then nothing will actually be accomplished.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline Peter J

  • Formerly PJ
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,268
  • Faith: Melkite Catholic
I don't see the church primarily as a hospital

Really? The idea of the church as a "hospital for sinners" is common to Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike.

Goody! I'm a person.
Expressing my personal view.

That's alright, I never thought it was otherwise; I was just surprised by it.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
if we don't go to church to be healed and spiritually fed, restoring our wholeness in Christ, what do we go there for? socializing? to show each other how saintly we are? Seriously...I don't see the alternative here...  ???

Go there to the church building, i guess my answer would be... to gather.

Why do we gather? I suppose to edify and encourage each other in Christ.

I do not believe we go to a church building to worship God. Like i have expressed before, i believe worship is what you do all week.

Ok, now i'm really confused. I get the edification and encouragement part, well enough.

How can it not be the role of the Christian to engage in corporate worship towards God? We see scripture replete with references to this!

So you don't think Christians should gather together to pray, to sing hymns, to read the scriptures, to praise and give thanks to God? What about the Lord's supper? Shouldn't we gather together to celebrate this? How can you separate these activities from worship? Or perhaps I should ask, what is is that you do differently during personal "worship" that differs from the above mentioned activities?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 08:34:16 PM by Ortho_cat »

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?

Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.


We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?

Christ is not only Jehovah Rapha but Jehovah Sabaoth, Jehovah Shammah, Jehovah Jireh etc...

I wouldn't single out that relationship as central.
Could you say all that again in plain English, please?

Our relationship with Christ is much more than Jesus our physician.

Jesus our provider, our peace, our protector et al. He has many names and titles no one is central.
Did anyone here say that we see Jesus only or primarily as our Physician?

The church is a hospital for sinners is stated a lot. I haven't read that the church is 'insert anything else' stated as often, if at all.

And what, exactly, is your experience of Orthodoxy? The Internet? Books?

I doubt it can even be books.  If you read very many Orthodox books at all, at least ones that are more theologically inclined than Frederica Matthews-Green books (not that there's anything wrong with those), you will at the very least read countless times about the Church being the Body of Christ.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,375
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
If you read very many Orthodox books at all, at least ones that are more theologically inclined than Frederica Matthews-Green books (not that there's anything wrong with those)
"In this life, God is veiled by the material world he created; in the next life, the veil is taken away and there is no separation." -Frederica Matthews-Green
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
If you read very many Orthodox books at all, at least ones that are more theologically inclined than Frederica Matthews-Green books (not that there's anything wrong with those)
"In this life, God is veiled by the material world he created; in the next life, the veil is taken away and there is no separation." -Frederica Matthews-Green

great quote.

Offline J Michael

  • Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,551
  • Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!
  • Faith: Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Passaic
Fountain Pen,

Having read through this whole thread, I can't help but wonder, like Shanghaiski, why you're here.  (And don't say for the same reason that I am, because you don't know why I am here).  I speculate about several possible reasons that you may be here and I'd be sincerely interested to know from you if any of them are correct:
1.  To bash Orthodoxy and organized religion in general
2.  To sway Orthodox away from the Church
3.  To be convinced, through a kind of perverse argumentative process, of the truth of Orthodoxy and/or organized religion in general
4.  To ask for help without actually coming out and asking for it
5.  To just argue for the sake of it
6.  All of the above
7.  None of the above--if so, just why *are* you here on this board, having started this thread?

Just a few thoughts.   ;)
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
IIRC, FP said that she knew someone IRL who is Orthodox...at least I think so.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 09:10:06 PM by Ortho_cat »

Offline Delphine

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
Fountain Pen,

Having read through this whole thread, I can't help but wonder, like Shanghaiski, why you're here.  (And don't say for the same reason that I am, because you don't know why I am here).  I speculate about several possible reasons that you may be here and I'd be sincerely interested to know from you if any of them are correct:
1.  To bash Orthodoxy and organized religion in general
2.  To sway Orthodox away from the Church
3.  To be convinced, through a kind of perverse argumentative process, of the truth of Orthodoxy and/or organized religion in general
4.  To ask for help without actually coming out and asking for it
5.  To just argue for the sake of it
6.  All of the above
7.  None of the above--if so, just why *are* you here on this board, having started this thread?

Just a few thoughts.   ;)

What if she's here to learn about Orthodoxy and finds the discussions interesting? What if she wants to see how people respond to legitimate concerns she has about Orthodox Christianity?

I don't come from any form of Protestant background, so FountainPen asks a lot of questions and has a perspective that I've never considered before. I think they're really good questions, and I love reading the responses that take her seriously. I always worry when people ask her what she's doing here because I really don't want her to leave!

Offline Delphine

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
Worship to me is a lifestyle, so the way i worship is not something i separate out and do on a Sunday morning but it's incorporated into everything i do in life. When i wash dishes, i do it "unto The Lord", when i tend a sick relative i am worshipping God with my life. When i speak to someone about God i am worshipping and when i put out the rubbish i am worshipping also.

Our whole life is sacrifice of worship, praise and thanksgiving to God. Whatever we do in life, we do "unto The Lord". (Colossians 3:23)

I think this is true, as long as you're mindful of God as you're doing these things.

My priest was talking about someone (another priest? a monk?) who's knees were so bad that he could no longer do prostrations. He ended up getting a treadmill and said that running on the treadmill was just as beneficial for him as doing the prostrations used to be.

Akimori, i might i be mentally unwell if i started adding certain rituals to my day such as handwashing, checking doors making sure they are shut, touching light switches 20 times or stepping over a threshold three times before i can shut the door. It's not the one thing that i might do or the reason that i might have for what i do -- which might sound incredibly plausible -- but the behaviours collectively can become problematic and can be a sign of somethng more sinister. I'm not suggesting that Orthodox Christians are mentally unwell but i'm suggesting that there is a line where rituals can be problematic to us even though we feel we might have good reasons for them.

I think the treadmill example applies to this concern as well. There seems to be a lot of flexibility in the Orthodox Church as to what would be most beneficial to the individual, which I think would help prevent these rituals from straying into the superstitious (for example, if someone were to believe that if you don't do these rituals a precise way at a precise time of day a precise number of times, you would derive no benefit).

--

If I'm off in any way, someone please correct me. I'm still learning about Orthodoxy, too.

Offline Delphine

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
Worship to me is a lifestyle, so the way i worship is not something i separate out and do on a Sunday morning but it's incorporated into everything i do in life. When i wash dishes, i do it "unto The Lord", when i tend a sick relative i am worshipping God with my life. When i speak to someone about God i am worshipping and when i put out the rubbish i am worshipping also.

Our whole life is sacrifice of worship, praise and thanksgiving to God. Whatever we do in life, we do "unto The Lord". (Colossians 3:23)

This reminds me of a post from one of my favorite blogs, evlogia. It's written by an Orthodox stay-at-home mom. Blog subtitle: "Grace in the profoundly ordinary."
http://evlogiaonline.com/2012/02/19/judgment-sunday/

Just an example of an Orthodox Christian living out her life.

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,375
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
If you read very many Orthodox books at all, at least ones that are more theologically inclined than Frederica Matthews-Green books (not that there's anything wrong with those)
"In this life, God is veiled by the material world he created; in the next life, the veil is taken away and there is no separation." -Frederica Matthews-Green

great quote.
Mani would have loved it.
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline biro

  • Excelsior
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,526
  • Leave me alone, I was only singing
    • Alaska Volcanoes
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Fountain Pen, I'm not trying to be offensive, but are you saying you're against going to any church at all? Because the Orthodox are not the only ones who have services with a pattern, so to speak. Even churches who say they don't have routines, really do- because if they always open by singing hymns and then listening to the sermon, then that's a routine too.

At You Tube, you can find many samples of what an Orthodox service looks like in action. I can't force you to go to a church. That's up to you. But Orthodoxy is not just to be talked about, and it is very beautiful when lived out. It is not just a series of things to do.

Thanks.  :)
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

--

And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Fountain Pen, I'm not trying to be offensive, but are you saying you're against going to any church at all? Because the Orthodox are not the only ones who have services with a pattern, so to speak. Even churches who say they don't have routines, really do- because if they always open by singing hymns and then listening to the sermon, then that's a routine too.

At You Tube, you can find many samples of what an Orthodox service looks like in action. I can't force you to go to a church. That's up to you. But Orthodoxy is not just to be talked about, and it is very beautiful when lived out. It is not just a series of things to do.

Thanks.  :)

Biro: even when you've 'got your chops on' as it were, you couldn't be offensive, not to me at least, so don't ever worry about that. :)

Several points. I've booked a Greek holiday so i will eventually experience an Orthodox church -- in context as well! To answer your other question as honestly as i can at the moment -- i'm not against going to a church service, no. I do occasionally go, though mainly to quiet prayer services with nothing else going on, but that isn't often i admit.

I don't feel good about anything that any church might do that puts a block inbetween the lost and God. I don't really know what i mean by that entirely. I suppose i don't really know at all Biro. I do get together with some of the people who have also come out of church like me.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
Fountain Pen,

Having read through this whole thread, I can't help but wonder, like Shanghaiski, why you're here.  (And don't say for the same reason that I am, because you don't know why I am here).  I speculate about several possible reasons that you may be here and I'd be sincerely interested to know from you if any of them are correct:
1.  To bash Orthodoxy and organized religion in general
2.  To sway Orthodox away from the Church
3.  To be convinced, through a kind of perverse argumentative process, of the truth of Orthodoxy and/or organized religion in general
4.  To ask for help without actually coming out and asking for it
5.  To just argue for the sake of it
6.  All of the above
7.  None of the above--if so, just why *are* you here on this board, having started this thread?

Just a few thoughts.   ;)



I'm always puzzled by people demanding to know the answer to this question. It is only asked of non-Orthodox people i think. People have all kinds of motives for being on a forum and i think it's none of anyone else's business really why you, me or or anyone else does what they do. It's a forum for goodness sakes, on the innynet! #laughs

You read what i post. Choose to answer it or choose to ignore it, it's no off skin my nose!

Why i am on this forum shouldn't matter to your choice to respond to a post or not.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline FountainPen

  • Is not wasting any more of her ink
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,025
IIRC, FP said that she knew someone IRL who is Orthodox...at least I think so.

Yes that's true, i have a friend who's almost catechumen now which initially horrified me and started my search into Orthodoxy, mostly to prove to her the idolatry involved and get her to reconsider. After a while of reading around this forum though, for whatever reason that initially brought me here, the statements of Orthodox belief presented a more personal challenge to me.
None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain

Offline akimori makoto

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,126
  • No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...
Several points. I've booked a Greek holiday so i will eventually experience an Orthodox church -- in context as well!

Something about this statement perturbs me, hah.

Yes that's true, i have a friend who's almost catechumen now which initially horrified me and started my search into Orthodoxy, mostly to prove to her the idolatry involved and get her to reconsider. After a while of reading around this forum though, for whatever reason that initially brought me here, the statements of Ort