Author Topic: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv  (Read 1289 times)

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Offline Jake

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03-03-2012
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/catholics/ugcc/47121/

"Greek Catholic monks of the Order of St Basil the Great expressed dissatisfaction with the possibility of privatization of the Pochaiv Monastery by the Moscow Patriarchate. They call Bill 9690, which envisages the transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, provocative. The Basilian monks state that they have more grounds to claim the Pochaiv Monastery than the monks of the Moscow Patriarchate."

Seems a bite far fetched to me because they only "occuppied" the buildings for a little over 100 years.  The rest of the time it was an Orthodox monastery.


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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2012, 03:54:53 PM »
03-03-2012
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/catholics/ugcc/47121/

"Greek Catholic monks of the Order of St Basil the Great expressed dissatisfaction with the possibility of privatization of the Pochaiv Monastery by the Moscow Patriarchate. They call Bill 9690, which envisages the transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, provocative. The Basilian monks state that they have more grounds to claim the Pochaiv Monastery than the monks of the Moscow Patriarchate."

Seems a bite far fetched to me because they only "occuppied" the buildings for a little over 100 years.  The rest of the time it was an Orthodox monastery.



Will the Basillian Fathers ever leave Ukraine alone?  Probably not.

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2012, 05:07:11 PM »
03-03-2012
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/catholics/ugcc/47121/

"Greek Catholic monks of the Order of St Basil the Great expressed dissatisfaction with the possibility of privatization of the Pochaiv Monastery by the Moscow Patriarchate. They call Bill 9690, which envisages the transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, provocative. The Basilian monks state that they have more grounds to claim the Pochaiv Monastery than the monks of the Moscow Patriarchate."

Seems a bite far fetched to me because they only "occuppied" the buildings for a little over 100 years.  The rest of the time it was an Orthodox monastery.

They are basing their claim on the fact they built the majority of the buildings.  That said I believe in the interest of better realtiosn they should drop this issue.
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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2012, 05:07:42 PM »
03-03-2012
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/catholics/ugcc/47121/

"Greek Catholic monks of the Order of St Basil the Great expressed dissatisfaction with the possibility of privatization of the Pochaiv Monastery by the Moscow Patriarchate. They call Bill 9690, which envisages the transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, provocative. The Basilian monks state that they have more grounds to claim the Pochaiv Monastery than the monks of the Moscow Patriarchate."

Seems a bite far fetched to me because they only "occuppied" the buildings for a little over 100 years.  The rest of the time it was an Orthodox monastery.



Will the Basillian Fathers ever leave Ukraine alone?  Probably not.

Why would they?  They are Ukrainian.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline vasily

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2012, 01:57:44 PM »



 They call Bill 9690, which envisages the transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, provocative.

 Why is it every time the Orthodox ,mainly the Moscow Patriarchate, does something in Ukraine it is labelled "provocative"?  They forget that in the late 1500"s the Orthodox in that area were  being persecuted by the Catholic Church and Eastern Rite. When the Basilian Fathers took control of the monastery, it fell into decline.

 It is getting quite pathetic that Eastern Rite Catholics are quick to point the finger at Moscow and put unwarranted blame on the Russian Orthodox Church. They should realize that at some time Rome will fully Latinize them, as was being done to the Eastern Rite Churches in the USA. Go back to your roots.

Offline Byron

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2012, 05:33:47 AM »



 They call Bill 9690, which envisages the transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, provocative.

 Why is it every time the Orthodox ,mainly the Moscow Patriarchate, does something in Ukraine it is labelled "provocative"?  They forget that in the late 1500"s the Orthodox in that area were  being persecuted by the Catholic Church and Eastern Rite. When the Basilian Fathers took control of the monastery, it fell into decline.

 It is getting quite pathetic that Eastern Rite Catholics are quick to point the finger at Moscow and put unwarranted blame on the Russian Orthodox Church. They should realize that at some time Rome will fully Latinize them, as was being done to the Eastern Rite Churches in the USA. Go back to your roots.

Great post.

How can they (Eastern Catholics) be proud of the fact that their forefathers were forced to change from Orthodoxy to Catholicism by a foreign power using force and/or guile?

Same with Islamised Albanians, Serbs (Bosnians) and Bulgars. They should be ashamed that their forefathers converted to Islam, and should re-convert to their traditional Orthodox faith.




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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2012, 05:41:26 AM »



 They call Bill 9690, which envisages the transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, provocative.

 Why is it every time the Orthodox ,mainly the Moscow Patriarchate, does something in Ukraine it is labelled "provocative"?  They forget that in the late 1500"s the Orthodox in that area were  being persecuted by the Catholic Church and Eastern Rite. When the Basilian Fathers took control of the monastery, it fell into decline.

 It is getting quite pathetic that Eastern Rite Catholics are quick to point the finger at Moscow and put unwarranted blame on the Russian Orthodox Church. They should realize that at some time Rome will fully Latinize them, as was being done to the Eastern Rite Churches in the USA. Go back to your roots.

Great post.

How can they (Eastern Catholics) be proud of the fact that their forefathers were forced to change from Orthodoxy to Catholicism by a foreign power using force and/or guile?

Same with Islamised Albanians, Serbs (Bosnians) and Bulgars. They should be ashamed that their forefathers converted to Islam, and should re-convert to their traditional Orthodox faith.

Ukrainians should be ashamed that they were forced to convert to a foreign religion by their ruler for political expediency.  BRING BACK PERUN!!! 

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2012, 05:53:45 AM »



 They call Bill 9690, which envisages the transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, provocative.

 Why is it every time the Orthodox ,mainly the Moscow Patriarchate, does something in Ukraine it is labelled "provocative"?  They forget that in the late 1500"s the Orthodox in that area were  being persecuted by the Catholic Church and Eastern Rite. When the Basilian Fathers took control of the monastery, it fell into decline.

 It is getting quite pathetic that Eastern Rite Catholics are quick to point the finger at Moscow and put unwarranted blame on the Russian Orthodox Church. They should realize that at some time Rome will fully Latinize them, as was being done to the Eastern Rite Churches in the USA. Go back to your roots.

Great post.

How can they (Eastern Catholics) be proud of the fact that their forefathers were forced to change from Orthodoxy to Catholicism by a foreign power using force and/or guile?

Same with Islamised Albanians, Serbs (Bosnians) and Bulgars. They should be ashamed that their forefathers converted to Islam, and should re-convert to their traditional Orthodox faith.

Ukrainians should be ashamed that they were forced to convert to a foreign religion by their ruler for political expediency.  BRING BACK PERUN!!! 

Bring the worship of Quetzalcoatl back too. I think the annual droughts we've been having in Texas are caused by an insufficient human sacrifices to whatever Aztec god was in charge of rain.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 05:55:58 AM by Cavaradossi »
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Offline Peter J

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2012, 10:36:37 AM »
03-03-2012
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/catholics/ugcc/47121/

"Greek Catholic monks of the Order of St Basil the Great expressed dissatisfaction with the possibility of privatization of the Pochaiv Monastery by the Moscow Patriarchate. They call Bill 9690, which envisages the transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, provocative. The Basilian monks state that they have more grounds to claim the Pochaiv Monastery than the monks of the Moscow Patriarchate."

Seems a bite far fetched to me because they only "occuppied" the buildings for a little over 100 years.  The rest of the time it was an Orthodox monastery.

Hi Jake. Can you provide a bit more information? Which 100 years was that?

Also, it says "transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate",  but transfer from what?
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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2012, 10:38:31 AM »



 They call Bill 9690, which envisages the transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, provocative.

 Why is it every time the Orthodox ,mainly the Moscow Patriarchate, does something in Ukraine it is labelled "provocative"?  They forget that in the late 1500"s the Orthodox in that area were  being persecuted by the Catholic Church and Eastern Rite. When the Basilian Fathers took control of the monastery, it fell into decline.

 It is getting quite pathetic that Eastern Rite Catholics are quick to point the finger at Moscow and put unwarranted blame on the Russian Orthodox Church. They should realize that at some time Rome will fully Latinize them, as was being done to the Eastern Rite Churches in the USA. Go back to your roots.

Great post.

How can they (Eastern Catholics) be proud of the fact that their forefathers were forced to change from Orthodoxy to Catholicism by a foreign power using force and/or guile?

Same with Islamised Albanians, Serbs (Bosnians) and Bulgars. They should be ashamed that their forefathers converted to Islam, and should re-convert to their traditional Orthodox faith.

Ukrainians should be ashamed that they were forced to convert to a foreign religion by their ruler for political expediency.  BRING BACK PERUN!!!  

Bring the worship of Quetzalcoatl back too. I think the annual droughts we've been having in Texas are caused by an insufficient human sacrifices to whatever Aztec god was in charge of rain.

Tlaloc-caused global warming... intriguing hypothesis
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 10:39:12 AM by Iconodule »
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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2012, 10:47:16 AM »
Hi Jake. Can you provide a bit more information? Which 100 years was that?

1713-1832

Quote
Also, it says "transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate",  but transfer from what?

From the state.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 10:47:27 AM by Michał Kalina »

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2012, 11:34:35 AM »



 They call Bill 9690, which envisages the transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, provocative.

 Why is it every time the Orthodox ,mainly the Moscow Patriarchate, does something in Ukraine it is labelled "provocative"?  They forget that in the late 1500"s the Orthodox in that area were  being persecuted by the Catholic Church and Eastern Rite. When the Basilian Fathers took control of the monastery, it fell into decline.

 It is getting quite pathetic that Eastern Rite Catholics are quick to point the finger at Moscow and put unwarranted blame on the Russian Orthodox Church. They should realize that at some time Rome will fully Latinize them, as was being done to the Eastern Rite Churches in the USA. Go back to your roots.

Great post.

How can they (Eastern Catholics) be proud of the fact that their forefathers were forced to change from Orthodoxy to Catholicism by a foreign power using force and/or guile?

Same with Islamised Albanians, Serbs (Bosnians) and Bulgars. They should be ashamed that their forefathers converted to Islam, and should re-convert to their traditional Orthodox faith.

Ukrainians should be ashamed that they were forced to convert to a foreign religion by their ruler for political expediency.  BRING BACK PERUN!!! 

Bring the worship of Quetzalcoatl back too. I think the annual droughts we've been having in Texas are caused by an insufficient human sacrifices to whatever Aztec god was in charge of rain.

Not to quibble, but the Aztec (and by extension their gods) never had any power in what is now Texas.  :P 

You all just need to dance more.  Go talk to some Comanche, Apache and Pueblos.  ;)
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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2012, 11:43:44 AM »

Will the Basillian Fathers ever leave Ukraine alone?  Probably not.

Why would they?  They are Ukrainian.

The question ought to be, "Will the Devil ever leave Ukraine alone?"

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2012, 11:45:05 AM »



 They call Bill 9690, which envisages the transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, provocative.

 Why is it every time the Orthodox ,mainly the Moscow Patriarchate, does something in Ukraine it is labelled "provocative"?  They forget that in the late 1500"s the Orthodox in that area were  being persecuted by the Catholic Church and Eastern Rite. When the Basilian Fathers took control of the monastery, it fell into decline.

 It is getting quite pathetic that Eastern Rite Catholics are quick to point the finger at Moscow and put unwarranted blame on the Russian Orthodox Church. They should realize that at some time Rome will fully Latinize them, as was being done to the Eastern Rite Churches in the USA. Go back to your roots.

Great post.

How can they (Eastern Catholics) be proud of the fact that their forefathers were forced to change from Orthodoxy to Catholicism by a foreign power using force and/or guile?

Same with Islamised Albanians, Serbs (Bosnians) and Bulgars. They should be ashamed that their forefathers converted to Islam, and should re-convert to their traditional Orthodox faith.

Ukrainians should be ashamed that they were forced to convert to a foreign religion by their ruler for political expediency.  BRING BACK PERUN!!!  

Bring the worship of Quetzalcoatl back too. I think the annual droughts we've been having in Texas are caused by an insufficient human sacrifices to whatever Aztec god was in charge of rain.

Not to quibble, but the Aztec (and by extension their gods) never had any power in what is now Texas.  :P  

You all just need to dance more.  Go talk to some Comanche, Apache and Pueblos.  ;)

No Dance! Is Great Fast! ;)

Seriously though, the only online source of this story is from RISU and in reading the article, it appears not to be a formal statment by the Basilian Order, but rather reflects the personal opinion of one "Fr. Ivan (Maikovych), who was the superior of the Buchach Basilian Monastery of the Holy Cross in Ternopil Region for many years." He appeared to speak on behalf of a group of Basilian priests - not the Order per se. Without more information, I am not sure that one can view this as an act sanctioned by the UGCC.

The situation in Ukraine (and to a lessor extent in eastern Slovakia) is, to be charitable - nuanced and multi-layered - and the argument of this priest is not dissimilar to the one made by our Orthodox brothers in the mid-1990's when the Cathedral churches in Lviv and Uzhorod were returned to the Greek Catholics after the 50 year period when the USSR outlawed the UGCC. Stepping back from that argument, in terms of history and law, the Greek Catholics had a strong claim tot he Lviv and Uzhorod properties while their claim to the monastery grounds in Kyiv is dubious.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 11:57:03 AM by podkarpatska »

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2012, 11:59:24 AM »



 They call Bill 9690, which envisages the transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, provocative.

 Why is it every time the Orthodox ,mainly the Moscow Patriarchate, does something in Ukraine it is labelled "provocative"?  They forget that in the late 1500"s the Orthodox in that area were  being persecuted by the Catholic Church and Eastern Rite. When the Basilian Fathers took control of the monastery, it fell into decline.

 It is getting quite pathetic that Eastern Rite Catholics are quick to point the finger at Moscow and put unwarranted blame on the Russian Orthodox Church. They should realize that at some time Rome will fully Latinize them, as was being done to the Eastern Rite Churches in the USA. Go back to your roots.

Great post.

How can they (Eastern Catholics) be proud of the fact that their forefathers were forced to change from Orthodoxy to Catholicism by a foreign power using force and/or guile?

Same with Islamised Albanians, Serbs (Bosnians) and Bulgars. They should be ashamed that their forefathers converted to Islam, and should re-convert to their traditional Orthodox faith.

Ukrainians should be ashamed that they were forced to convert to a foreign religion by their ruler for political expediency.  BRING BACK PERUN!!! 

Bring the worship of Quetzalcoatl back too. I think the annual droughts we've been having in Texas are caused by an insufficient human sacrifices to whatever Aztec god was in charge of rain.

Not to quibble, but the Aztec (and by extension their gods) never had any power in what is now Texas.  :P 

You all just need to dance more.  Go talk to some Comanche, Apache and Pueblos.  ;)

The Quetzalcoatl worshipers may have never made it into Texas, but their descendants certainly did. I think Quetzalcoatl is punishing us collectively for their apostasy.
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline Peter J

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2012, 12:15:03 PM »

Will the Basillian Fathers ever leave Ukraine alone?  Probably not.

Why would they?  They are Ukrainian.

The question ought to be, "Will the Devil ever leave Ukraine alone?"

 ??? I don't think the Devil leaves any place alone.
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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2012, 12:20:08 PM »

Yes, but, he's been working overtime in Ukraine.

No other nation has had to face what Ukraine has - historically or in the present.

What other nation of faithful Orthodox has 3 separate Orthodox Churches vying for power?  The people are confused...don't know where to go.

He's destroying us from the inside out.
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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2012, 12:28:13 PM »

Yes, but, he's been working overtime in Ukraine.

No other nation has had to face what Ukraine has - historically or in the present.

What other nation of faithful Orthodox has 3 separate Orthodox Churches vying for power?  The people are confused...don't know where to go.

He's destroying us from the inside out.

Yes, that is sad. But who knows, perhaps in the end the Ukrainian Orthodox will be a good example to the rest of us (whether Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, etc.) of putting aside differences and coming together after a period of division.
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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2012, 12:42:15 PM »



 They call Bill 9690, which envisages the transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, provocative.

 Why is it every time the Orthodox ,mainly the Moscow Patriarchate, does something in Ukraine it is labelled "provocative"?  They forget that in the late 1500"s the Orthodox in that area were  being persecuted by the Catholic Church and Eastern Rite. When the Basilian Fathers took control of the monastery, it fell into decline.

 It is getting quite pathetic that Eastern Rite Catholics are quick to point the finger at Moscow and put unwarranted blame on the Russian Orthodox Church. They should realize that at some time Rome will fully Latinize them, as was being done to the Eastern Rite Churches in the USA. Go back to your roots.

Great post.

How can they (Eastern Catholics) be proud of the fact that their forefathers were forced to change from Orthodoxy to Catholicism by a foreign power using force and/or guile?

Same with Islamised Albanians, Serbs (Bosnians) and Bulgars. They should be ashamed that their forefathers converted to Islam, and should re-convert to their traditional Orthodox faith.






I see the point. but still, my forefathers were ( in many cases) forced to convert to Christianity but I am not ashamed of being a christian.
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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2012, 12:46:26 PM »
What other nation of faithful Orthodox has 3 separate Orthodox Churches vying for power?  The people are confused...don't know where to go.

Greece?

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2012, 12:48:50 PM »
Great post.

How can they (Eastern Catholics) be proud of the fact that their forefathers were forced to change from Orthodoxy to Catholicism by a foreign power using force and/or guile?

Same with Islamised Albanians, Serbs (Bosnians) and Bulgars. They should be ashamed that their forefathers converted to Islam, and should re-convert to their traditional Orthodox faith.

I see the point. but still, my forefathers were ( in many cases) forced to convert to Christianity but I am not ashamed of being a christian.

Besides which, is it obviously that you should only convert to Orthodoxy (or anything else) if you believe it to be true?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 12:49:39 PM by Peter J »
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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2012, 01:23:01 PM »
Your Profile Info Picture Caption Thing

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2012, 05:29:12 PM »



 They call Bill 9690, which envisages the transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, provocative.

 Why is it every time the Orthodox ,mainly the Moscow Patriarchate, does something in Ukraine it is labelled "provocative"?  They forget that in the late 1500"s the Orthodox in that area were  being persecuted by the Catholic Church and Eastern Rite. When the Basilian Fathers took control of the monastery, it fell into decline.

 It is getting quite pathetic that Eastern Rite Catholics are quick to point the finger at Moscow and put unwarranted blame on the Russian Orthodox Church. They should realize that at some time Rome will fully Latinize them, as was being done to the Eastern Rite Churches in the USA. Go back to your roots.

Great post.

How can they (Eastern Catholics) be proud of the fact that their forefathers were forced to change from Orthodoxy to Catholicism by a foreign power using force and/or guile?

Same with Islamised Albanians, Serbs (Bosnians) and Bulgars. They should be ashamed that their forefathers converted to Islam, and should re-convert to their traditional Orthodox faith.

Ukrainians should be ashamed that they were forced to convert to a foreign religion by their ruler for political expediency.  BRING BACK PERUN!!!  

Bring the worship of Quetzalcoatl back too. I think the annual droughts we've been having in Texas are caused by an insufficient human sacrifices to whatever Aztec god was in charge of rain.

Not to quibble, but the Aztec (and by extension their gods) never had any power in what is now Texas.  :P  

You all just need to dance more.  Go talk to some Comanche, Apache and Pueblos.  ;)

No Dance! Is Great Fast! ;)

Seriously though, the only online source of this story is from RISU and in reading the article, it appears not to be a formal statment by the Basilian Order, but rather reflects the personal opinion of one "Fr. Ivan (Maikovych), who was the superior of the Buchach Basilian Monastery of the Holy Cross in Ternopil Region for many years." He appeared to speak on behalf of a group of Basilian priests - not the Order per se. Without more information, I am not sure that one can view this as an act sanctioned by the UGCC.
It's called "plausible deniability."  Should the person of "Fr. Ivan (Maikovych)" succeed in defeating Bill 9690, or worse yet, get the UGCC recognized as  a claimant to the property, the UGCC (nor the Vatican) will be turning it down.

The situation in Ukraine (and to a lessor extent in eastern Slovakia) is, to be charitable - nuanced and multi-layered - and the argument of this priest is not dissimilar to the one made by our Orthodox brothers in the mid-1990's when the Cathedral churches in Lviv and Uzhorod were returned to the Greek Catholics after the 50 year period when the USSR outlawed the UGCC. Stepping back from that argument, in terms of history and law, the Greek Catholics had a strong claim tot he Lviv and Uzhorod properties while their claim to the monastery grounds in Kyiv is dubious.
The claim to the monastery grounds in Kiev rest on the same claims to St. George Cathedral in Lviv: i.e. the claim that they built it, ignoring the fact that to do so they tore down the Orthodox Cathedral (multiple times, btw) on the same site and seized it while the Orthodox Church labored under a murky legal status.  I'm not an expert in real estate law, but don't you have to own the land before you build on it?

I would like to know who wrote this gem:
Quote
Lviv is a city of religious variety and there have been conflicts between different faiths. At one point over 60 churches existed in the city. The largest Christian churches have existed in the city since the 13th century. There are three major Christian groups: The Ukrainian Catholic Archeparchy of Lviv, the Roman Catholics, and the Armenian Church. Each have had a diocesan seat in Lviv since the 16th century. The Golden Rose Synagogue was built in Lviv in 1582 and in the 18th century the Orthodox community left their allegiance to the Pope in Rome and became the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

 ::)
Quote
This bond was forcibly dissolved in 1946 by the Soviet authorities and the Roman Catholic community was forced out by the expulsion of the Polish population. Since 1989, religious life in Lviv has experienced a revival.
Until 2005 Lviv was the only city with two Catholic Cardinals: Lubomyr Husar (Byzantine Rite) and Marian Jaworski (Latin Rite).
Lviv is the seat of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Lviv, the centre of the Roman Catholic Church in Ukraine and until 21 August 2005 was the centre of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. About 35 per cent of religious buildings belong to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, 11.5 per cent to the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, 9 per cent to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church – Kiev Patriarchate and 6 per cent to the Roman Catholic Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv#Monuments_in_Lviv
Since that all adds up to 61.5%, leaving 38.5% of religious buildings. Who has them?  The Armenians are not that numerous. As the article goes on to state, the once great community of Jews in Lviv has been wipped out, so they can't be making up the 38.5%.  The article doesn't mention Protestants at all...do they even register their religious buildings? Can they?  Since Islam, Buddhism etc. haven't made a dent among the masses of Lviv, that only leaves the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox, i.e. UOC-Moscow Patriarchate, to take up the bulk.  Is that why the 38.5% are not labeled?

It is interesting how the UGCC had restoration of St. George of Lviv (then its primatial see) to celebrate the 400th anniversary of the "Union" of Brest. I wonder how much was celebrated-or even remembered-that the archbishop of Lviv, who sat on the Cathedra of Lviv in St. George (is he buried there?) refused to sign on, and it took over a century to impose it on the Orthodox diocese of Lviv.

If the UGCC got its hands on the Kievan Caves, it would be interesting to see Konstanty Ostrogorski roll in his grave there
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Online ialmisry

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2012, 05:29:12 PM »
Hi Jake. Can you provide a bit more information? Which 100 years was that?

1713-1832

Quote
Also, it says "transfer of the Kyiv Cave and Pochaiv Monasteries to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate",  but transfer from what?

From the state.
Interesting how the property wasn't returned to the Orthodox when the Czar took sovereignty.  The UGCC likes to pray on Russophobia, that only Russian Orthodoxy prevents all Ukrainians from flocking to the "Union" of Brest.  The Orthodox had sought the restoration of the Lavra before 1832, when the Czar had sovereignty for decades and the populace in the countryside had rushed back to Orthodoxy:it took the Latinizing hierarchy of the UGCC (or its predecessor, there being only a "Ruthenian Rite," and no such UGCC-the Vatican itself moved the archbishop's title from Kiev to Lviv) and their flock, who opening tried to make Polish Latins out of the Ukrainians/Ruthenians/Little Russians/Rusyns, engaging in treason and support the uprising of 1831, to induce the Czar to allow the return, which the Austrians and then the Polish Second Republic tried to reverse.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Orest

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2012, 11:23:33 AM »

 to the property, the UGCC (nor the Vatican) will be turning it down.


It is interesting how the UGCC had restoration of St. George of Lviv (then its primatial see) to celebrate the 400th anniversary of the "Union" of Brest. I wonder how much was celebrated-or even remembered-that the archbishop of Lviv, who sat on the Cathedra of Lviv in St. George (is he buried there?) refused to sign on, and it took over a century to impose it on the Orthodox diocese of Lviv.

If the UGCC got its hands on the Kievan Caves, it would be interesting to see Konstanty Ostrogorski roll in his grave there


Good post: you have said it all better than I ever could.  I can only add that Konstantyn Ostrohsky would also roll over in his grave if the Basilians took over Pochaiv too. Good point about the Bishop of L'viv rejecting the Union of Brest and now the Ukrainian Catholics want to celebrate 400 years of the Union of Brest in Lviv?  How ironic.  Would make a good skit for SNL on Ukrainian TV with parts of it in German since it was the Austrians who enforced Catholicism in Galicia.

Offline Peter J

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2012, 12:31:08 PM »
The claim to the monastery grounds in Kiev rest on the same claims to St. George Cathedral in Lviv: i.e. the claim that they built it, ignoring the fact that to do so they tore down the Orthodox Cathedral (multiple times, btw) on the same site and seized it while the Orthodox Church labored under a murky legal status.  

In all honesty, I haven't thought of that.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2012, 12:33:21 PM »
Interesting how the property wasn't returned to the Orthodox when the Czar took sovereignty.  The UGCC likes to pray on Russophobia,

That's a relief. I thought you were going to say they like to prey on Russophobia.

(Man, I need to get out more, and not spend so much time online.)
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2012, 01:26:07 PM »
The claim to the monastery grounds in Kiev rest on the same claims to St. George Cathedral in Lviv: i.e. the claim that they built it, ignoring the fact that to do so they tore down the Orthodox Cathedral (multiple times, btw) on the same site and seized it while the Orthodox Church labored under a murky legal status.  

In all honesty, I haven't thought of that.

But, I think that the Orthodox claim to Kiev is far stronger as the Greek Catholic influence and presence in eastern Ukraine was (and is) far less impactful than it was on the western fringes of the Russian Empire in the regions which were the subject of conflict and 'royal' change in administration from the days preceding, and following, the unions. The passage of time regarding claims to former Orthodox properties in the western regions probably dampens any 'legal' claims of the Orthodox there. Keep in mind that the Unia is contemporaneous to the religious wars and changes in England and the 'transfer' of Catholic properties from the Bishops and monasteries to the Throne during the 16th and 17th centuries are probably analogous in some ways.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 01:26:31 PM by podkarpatska »

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Re: re:UKrainian Greek Catholic Basilian Order Lays Claim to Pochaiv
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2012, 07:10:50 PM »
Interesting how the property wasn't returned to the Orthodox when the Czar took sovereignty.  The UGCC likes to pray on Russophobia,

That's a relief. I thought you were going to say they like to prey on Russophobia.
They do that too, but that's not as sinful as the false dogma of a distinction between Ukrainian and Orthodox.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth