Author Topic: Where is Jesus physically?  (Read 1281 times)

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Offline TristanCross

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Where is Jesus physically?
« on: February 19, 2012, 07:40:35 PM »
As of right now, where is Jesus physically? Since the Logos assumed human flesh, He must be somewhere, right? Many Orthodox refer to Heaven as a state in which we are fully united to God (the attainment of theosis), but is there a physical place we can call Heaven where the saints and Christ are at this moment?
"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2012, 08:33:48 PM »
I think an even better question is "What's up with Enoch and Elijah? Those dudes aren't even dead yet!"

I would say that Christ resides in the "heavenly places" (Ephesians 1:20, 2:6) and is "at the right hand of the Father" (Mark 14:62, 16:19; Acts 2:33, 7:55; Romans 8:34; Hebrews 1:3, 8:1, 10:12, 12:2). This is what the Scripture teaches us.

From the Holy Traditions of the Church, we believe the Most Holy Theotokos resides there as well, having been assumed into the heavens, raised bodily after her Dormition by her Son (see the hymns for the Feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos).

The rest of the saints reside in "Paradise" and rest in Christ, though they await their bodily resurrections. Much of the Church's understanding on Paradise and the abode of the dead can be seen in the non-canonical Gospel of Nicodemus, in which the Harrowing of Hell by Christ on Great and Holy Saturday is recorded. The work even mentions Enoch and Elijah, to answer my own question above. ;)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 08:34:56 PM by Benjamin the Red »
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Offline biro

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2012, 08:53:20 PM »
Seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline Shiny

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2012, 09:27:04 PM »
I've wondered about the same thing. In fact when we die, do we get to "see" anything?
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Offline Twenty Nine

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2012, 10:17:59 PM »
The Eucharist.
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Offline Father H

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2012, 10:28:04 PM »
As of right now, where is Jesus physically? Since the Logos assumed human flesh, He must be somewhere, right? Many Orthodox refer to Heaven as a state in which we are fully united to God (the attainment of theosis), but is there a physical place we can call Heaven where the saints and Christ are at this moment?

On the Throne with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and on every Holy Table, and within the persons of the Faithful who partake of Communion, for starters. 

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2012, 10:54:42 PM »
At the end of the ages, on the altar, at the right hand of the Father.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2012, 11:01:42 PM »
I think an even better question is "What's up with Enoch and Elijah? Those dudes aren't even dead yet!"

Now wait just a second. I have two questions regarding this.

1) If Christ's resurrection were the firstfruits of what our resurrected bodies will be, then what does that mean for Enoch and Elijah?

2) How was Moses present during the configuration if he was dead?
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2012, 11:01:42 PM »
As of right now, where is Jesus physically? Since the Logos assumed human flesh, He must be somewhere, right? Many Orthodox refer to Heaven as a state in which we are fully united to God (the attainment of theosis), but is there a physical place we can call Heaven where the saints and Christ are at this moment?

On the Throne with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and on every Holy Table, and within the persons of the Faithful who partake of Communion, for starters. 
Father, Bless!

Is "The Throne" supposed to be anthromorphic?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2012, 12:02:27 AM »
I think an even better question is "What's up with Enoch and Elijah? Those dudes aren't even dead yet!"

Now wait just a second. I have two questions regarding this.

1) If Christ's resurrection were the firstfruits of what our resurrected bodies will be, then what does that mean for Enoch and Elijah?

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27)

2) How was Moses present during the configuration if he was dead?

Moses was present during the Transfiguration in much the same way the saints appear to us today.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 12:02:59 AM by Benjamin the Red »
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2012, 12:13:28 AM »
As of right now, where is Jesus physically? Since the Logos assumed human flesh, He must be somewhere, right? Many Orthodox refer to Heaven as a state in which we are fully united to God (the attainment of theosis), but is there a physical place we can call Heaven where the saints and Christ are at this moment?

As a Person He is Omni-Present.

His human nature, although distinct and not confused with it, is still inseparable from His Divine nature(recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation). And so where ever His human nature is, His Divine nature is also, and wherever His Divine nature is, His human nature is also.

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Offline Azul

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2012, 01:53:50 PM »
I think I asked that same question on a different thread.

Question is Jesus or God sitting on a literal throne?

I am curious what is heaven?
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Offline akimel

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2012, 02:50:31 PM »
St John Damascene offers the classical Orthodox answer to this question:

"We hold, moreover, that Christ sits in the body at the right hand of God the Father, but we do not hold that the right hand of the Father is actual place. For how could He that is uncircumscribed have a right hand limited by place? Right hands and left hands belong to what is circumscribed. But we understand the right hand of the Father to be the glory and honour of the Godhead in which the Son of God, who existed as God before the ages, and is of like essence to the Father, and in the end became flesh, has a seat in the body, His flesh sharing in the glory. For He along with His flesh is adored with one adoration by all creation." 

Offline Azul

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2012, 03:09:03 PM »
St John Damascene offers the classical Orthodox answer to this question:

"We hold, moreover, that Christ sits in the body at the right hand of God the Father, but we do not hold that the right hand of the Father is actual place. For how could He that is uncircumscribed have a right hand limited by place? Right hands and left hands belong to what is circumscribed. But we understand the right hand of the Father to be the glory and honour of the Godhead in which the Son of God, who existed as God before the ages, and is of like essence to the Father, and in the end became flesh, has a seat in the body, His flesh sharing in the glory. For He along with His flesh is adored with one adoration by all creation." 

What is heaven?Where is it that Christ is abiding right now?
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
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Offline biro

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2012, 03:19:54 PM »
Where is Jesus?

...Where He wants to be.  ;)
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline akimel

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2012, 03:46:59 PM »
The Eucharist.

This is the answer I would chose.  The right hand of God is wherever the Holy Eucharist is celebrated.  Any other answer gets one tied up in intellectual knots.  We start thinking of Heaven as a place in spatial relationship to the world.  And if Heaven is a place, then how is it possible for the bodily Christ to be present under the forms of bread and wine?  The Latin doctrine of transubstantiation was created precisely to answer this question: by the miracle of transubstantiation the substance of the bread and wine is changed into the substance of the physical body of Christ, which resides in a "place" that is not here.  If we have a science bent, perhaps we even start thinking of Heaven as a dimension or an alternative universe or whatever.  But the problem remains--getting Jesus from Heaven onto the Holy Table.  Reformed Christianity also unquestionably accepted the idea of Heaven as a place.  They denied that the bodily Jesus could possible come down from Heaven to be present on the Holy Table: rather, the soul, which is not spatially bounded, must rise to Heaven and there be united to Christ's body and blood.  In the West only Martin Luther and some of his followers, e.g., John Brenz, dared to reject the spatial construal of Heaven. For this reason Lutheran reflection on the eucharistic presence often bears striking resemblance to Eastern reflection. 
   

Offline JamesR

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2012, 04:22:26 PM »
As of right now, where is Jesus physically? Since the Logos assumed human flesh, He must be somewhere, right? Many Orthodox refer to Heaven as a state in which we are fully united to God (the attainment of theosis), but is there a physical place we can call Heaven where the saints and Christ are at this moment?

Well, I do think that you are misunderstanding Theosis, brother. You see, Theisis is not something to be attained, it is not something that will be finished in Heaven, but it is the eternal process of growing closer to God through His Son, and even after death while in the state of Heaven we will still be growing closer to Him for eternity, albeit in an easier way I would assume since there will be no more sin and passions to hold us back anymore and make it harder. Now, moving forward, I have no doubt that there is going to be some physical aspect to Heaven; after all, Jesus redeemed the flesh as well and when He resurrected He was also physical to an extent. As Orthodox Christians we are also forbidden to have our bodies cremated because we recognize that there is going to be something physical in Heaven. Now, I would not go beyond this at all because I think that to this point we are clueless; we know that there is a physical aspect and that Jesus and the Saints will be with us, but, whether or not we will literally see them standing next to us, I do not know.
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Offline Father H

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2012, 04:29:45 PM »
As of right now, where is Jesus physically? Since the Logos assumed human flesh, He must be somewhere, right? Many Orthodox refer to Heaven as a state in which we are fully united to God (the attainment of theosis), but is there a physical place we can call Heaven where the saints and Christ are at this moment?

On the Throne with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and on every Holy Table, and within the persons of the Faithful who partake of Communion, for starters. 
Father, Bless!

Is "The Throne" supposed to be anthromorphic?

My reference was to the Eucharist.  In a sense, "the Throne" is meant to be quite direct.  The Holy Table is also called the Throne on which Christ is enthroned in the Gospel, but above all in the Eucharist.  In iconography when Christ is depicted enthroned it is often upon the throne of the Holy Table.  But more specifically the prayers of the Church say that the Lord is "ever on the throne with the Father and Holy Spirit" and also the Resurrectional prayers "...on the Throne with the Father and the Holy Spirit was Thou, O Christ our God filling all things uncircumscribed."  

Offline TristanCross

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2012, 06:34:49 PM »
I'm not looking for the Eucharist or right hand of God answers. The Eucharist isn't celebrated at every single second, and God the Father is not a physical person. The "right hand of God" is a symbol, not a literal, physical place.
"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
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Offline mike

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2012, 06:56:26 PM »
I'm not looking for the Eucharist or right hand of God answers. The Eucharist isn't celebrated at every single second,

How are you sure? It's possible.

Offline TristanCross

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2012, 07:12:36 PM »
I'm not looking for the Eucharist or right hand of God answers. The Eucharist isn't celebrated at every single second,

How are you sure? It's possible.

Every single second for almost 2000 years? I'm not so sure. What about in the early church? It was very small, and most Christians were in one place. When they were done celebrating the Eucharist, where was Christ physically?
"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2012, 09:46:00 PM »
I'm not looking for the Eucharist or right hand of God answers.
I think he's at the Coming Age.
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Offline Father H

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2012, 11:29:49 PM »
I'm not looking for the Eucharist or right hand of God answers. The Eucharist isn't celebrated at every single second, and God the Father is not a physical person. The "right hand of God" is a symbol, not a literal, physical place.

You may not be looking for those as answers but therein lies your answer, and it is right there in the Eucharistic Liturgy right before the elevation and communion:   
"Attend, O Lord Jesus Christ our God, from Thy holy dwelling place and from the glorious throne of Thy Kingdom, and come to make us holy, O Thou who art enthroned on high with the Father and art invisibly present among us.  And let Thy Pure Body and Precious Blood be given to us by Thine own Mighty Hand, and through us to all Thy People."

Offline Father H

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2012, 11:33:52 PM »
I'm not looking for the Eucharist or right hand of God answers. The Eucharist isn't celebrated at every single second, and God the Father is not a physical person. The "right hand of God" is a symbol, not a literal, physical place.

BTW, the Eucharist is always in the tabernacle. 

Offline Father H

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2012, 11:42:23 PM »
Also, we cannot forget the teachings of the Synod of Constantinople in 1156, expressed by Nicholas of Methone, that there is one sacrifice which was offered once for all on the cross, is offered on the earth in the Eucharist in relations of time, and is offered abidingly in heaven.  (Stone Eucharist Volume 1, 164)

Offline quietmorning

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2012, 12:37:22 PM »
Blessed are those who are pure in heart, for they shall see God. 

He is in the Eucharist. 
He is where two or more gather in His Name.
He is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He is with you always - even until the end of the age.

He is the begger who sits on the street corner.
He is the mother who has been abandoned by her husband.
He is the homosexual dying of aids.
He is the child who prays before she goes to sleep.
He is the alter server who is thankful that he can serve the One God for even just one Liturgy.

We are his body.  If you look at your brother, you see Jesus Christ in physical form.  You can even reach out and touch Him. 

In His Mercy,
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Offline Father H

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2012, 02:54:10 PM »
Also the words of St. Leo are pertinent:

"whatever was visible in our Savior has passed over into his mysteries."  Sermon 74.2

Offline Azul

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2012, 02:58:43 PM »
Also the words of St. Leo are pertinent:

"whatever was visible in our Savior has passed over into his mysteries."  Sermon 74.2


Good quote.

But a sicko like me wants to penetrate into this mystery.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2012, 04:38:47 PM »
Also the words of St. Leo are pertinent:

"whatever was visible in our Savior has passed over into his mysteries."  Sermon 74.2


Good quote.

But a sicko like me wants to penetrate into this mystery.

Good luck with that. St. Ambrose says in his Communion prayer that they are "covered with an impenetrable veil."
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Offline akimel

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2012, 05:46:44 PM »
This is a lovely statement.  Thank you.

Blessed are those who are pure in heart, for they shall see God. 

He is in the Eucharist. 
He is where two or more gather in His Name.
He is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He is with you always - even until the end of the age.

He is the begger who sits on the street corner.
He is the mother who has been abandoned by her husband.
He is the homosexual dying of aids.
He is the child who prays before she goes to sleep.
He is the alter server who is thankful that he can serve the One God for even just one Liturgy.

We are his body.  If you look at your brother, you see Jesus Christ in physical form.  You can even reach out and touch Him. 



Offline Twenty Nine

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2012, 06:32:47 PM »
Every single second for almost 2000 years? I'm not so sure. What about in the early church? It was very small, and most Christians were in one place. When they were done celebrating the Eucharist, where was Christ physically?[/quote]

I think the problem is that we sometimes view space/time as a "container" in the platonic sense and we run into these issues. Modern physics have done away with this "container" view and is now more in line with the fathers.

Understanding where Christ is physically has to go beyond this container view: simply look at the Ascension...how can that be explained using Newtonian/Greek physics?

When Christ walked the earth, creation did not contain Him, He still contained creation and all things.
Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. - Philippians 4:8

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2012, 04:24:58 AM »
  Sitting at the right of God the Father. and since God the father is omnipresent, so is His begotten son.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 04:26:36 AM by deacon Mikias(micah) »

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Where is Jesus physically?
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2012, 05:43:24 AM »
 Sitting at the right of God the Father. and since God the father is omnipresent, so is His begotten son.

Yup!
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 05:44:26 AM by jnorm888 »
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