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Author Topic: Problems with the Incarnation / Trinity  (Read 2177 times) Average Rating: 0
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Azul
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« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2012, 04:10:27 PM »

And I do it for myself as a reminder to cautiosly use my words and why not abandon all this G-d talk.
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« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2012, 04:16:46 PM »

For me the Pre-Incarnated Logos is not a Person but a quality of G-d.I always thought of Him like that.There is onle one Person for me, One G-d whose quality is given and determined by the Holy Trinity.

But i`m not sure how to explain the Incarnation.Did this One G-d in his entire Being descended in the Virgin and got Incarnated?



OK. So the answer to the question about trying to convince us of the non-Personhood of the Word rather than asking for help understanding the Eternal Personhood of all Persons of the Trinity was:

yes.

A profitable Fast to you.

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« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2012, 04:25:14 PM »

Azul, are you suggesting that Christ was just an emanation or something from the Father before the Incarnation but at that point He became a Person?
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« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2012, 05:41:40 PM »

For me the Pre-Incarnated Logos is not a Person but a quality of G-d.I always thought of Him like that.
Why?
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« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2012, 11:08:08 PM »

I read this years ago, but this mode of thinking changed my central understanding of "person" vs. "individual", even changed my whole view of how to read the Church fathers.  Not to sound sensationalist, but this even changed my life in a way.  So, hats off to Fr. Thomas Hopko for this crucial point:

Quote
I prefer the word communion to relationship. The Orthodox approach is that we are made in the image and likeness of God, and that God is a Trinity of persons in absolute identity of being and of life in perfect communion. Therefore, communion is the given. Anything that breaks that communion destroys the very roots of our existence. That’s why forgiveness is essential if there is going to be human life in the image of God. We are all sinners, living with other sinners, and so 70 times 7 times a day we must re-establish communion — and want to do so. The desire is the main thing, and the feeling that it is of value.

The obsession with relationship — the individual in search of relationships — in the modern world shows there is an ontological crack in our being. There is no such thing as an individual. He was created, probably, in a Western European university. We don’t recognize our essential communion. I don’t look at you and say, “You are my life.”

Modern interpretations of the commandment in the Torah reflect this individualistic attitude. The first commandment is that you love God with all your mind, all your soul, and all your strength, and the second is that you love your neighbor as yourself. The only way you can prove you love God is by loving your neighbor, and the only way you can love your neighbor in this world is by endless forgiveness. So, “love your neighbor as yourself.” However, in certain modern editions of the Bible, I have seen this translated as, “You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself.” But that’s not what it says.

I recall a televised discussion program in which we were asked what was most important in Christianity. Part of what I said was that the only way we can find ourselves is to deny ourselves. That’s Christ’s teaching. If you cling to yourself, you lose yourself. The unwillingness to forgive is the ultimate act of not wanting to let yourself go. You want to defend yourself, assert yourself, protect yourself. There is a consistent line through the Gospel — if you want to be the first you must will to be the last. The other fellow, who taught the psychology of religion at a Protestant seminary, said, “What you are saying is the source of the neuroses of Western society. What we need is healthy self-love and healthy self-esteem.” Then he quoted that line, “You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself.” He insisted that you must love yourself first and have a sense of dignity. If one has that, forgiveness is either out of the question or an act of condescension toward the poor sinner. It is no longer an identification with the other as a sinner, too. I said that of course if we are made in the image of God it’s quite self-affirming, and self-hatred is an evil. But my main point is that there is no self there to be defended except the one that comes into existence by the act of love and self-emptying. It’s only by loving the other that myself actually emerges. Forgiveness is at the heart of that.

As we were leaving a venerable old rabbi with a shining face called us over. “That line, you know, comes from the Torah, from Leviticus,” he said, “and it cannot possibly be translated ‘love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ It says, ‘You shall love your neighbor as being your own self’.” Your neighbor is your true self. You have no self in yourself.

After this I started reading the Church Fathers in this light, and that’s what they all say — “Your brother is your life.” I have no self in myself except the one that is fulfilled by loving the other. The Trinitarian character of God is a metaphysical absolute here, so to speak. God’s own self is another — His Son. The same thing happens on the human level. So the minute I don’t feel deeply that my real self is the other, then I’ll have no reason to forgive anyone. But if that is my reality, and my only real self is the other, and my own identity and fulfillment emerges only in the act of loving the other, that gives substance to the idea that we are potentially God-like beings. Now, if you add to that that we are all to some degree faulty and weak and so on, that act of love will always be an act of forgiveness. That’s how I find and fulfill myself as a human being made in God’s image. Otherwise, I cannot. So the act of forgiveness is the very act by which our humanity is constituted. Deny that, and we kill ourselves. It’s a metaphysical suicide.

You are making a distinction here between the individual and the person.

The individual is the person that refuses to love. When a person refuses to identify in being and value with “the least,” even with “the enemy,” then the person becomes an individual, a self enclosed being trying to have proper relationships — usually on his or her own terms. But again, we would say that the person only comes into existence by going out of oneself into communion with the other. So my task is not to decide whether or not I will be in relationship with you but to realize that I am in communion with you: my life is yours, and your life is mine. Without this, there is no way that we are going to be able to carry on.


from http://www.incommunion.org/2005/08/03/living-in-communion/


In other words, the Trinity is not three individuals, but three persons, in the sense that they are perfectly in communion with one another.  This perfect communion from the very beginning is this Oneness.  The One God is the perfection of communion of Love.  Therefore, the awareness of "self" is not there.  The Father is aware in the Son through the Spirit.  The Son is aware in the Father through the Spirit.  The Father is aware in the Spirit through the Son, and the Son is aware in the Spirit through the Father.  The Spirit is aware in the Father through the Son, and the Spirit is aware in the Son through the Father.  This perfection in Trinitarian relationship of awareness of the self in the other, not in oneself, and act of awareness is through the agency of yet another, the perfection of the circle of communion of three, for this is a way in which we can understand the simplest of Oneness in the Threeness.

We on the other hand are persons who can potentially be individuals, but we are to emulate God by acting as self-sacrificing persons as best as possible, as Christ commanded, "Be Perfect, as my Father in heaven is Perfect."  The word "Person" therefore describes a hypostasis that wants to enter into personal relationship.  The Trinity is in fact so personal, that God is also Pantocrator, for God creates so that God may also have a personal relationship with His creation, and this is done in a manner that the Logos, the Son of God may eventually take creation in the form of man as part of His own so that we may enter into this same relationship with the Father and the Holy Spirit as the Logos does, so that we be sons to the Father by the sanctification of the Holy Spirit.

This is only the best way one can explain our relationship with God.  It is how we can relate to God that we can also understand who and what God is.  If God is Perfect Love, then God is Perfectly Triune.  If God is incarnate, then we can be perfected and grafted into this Triune relationship.  It is because God is Love that He is also incarnate, because not only He is Love within Himself, but He loves us, and wants to establish us as love within Himself.  This is a very complex view of God, but the complexity of it all is also worthy of God, for we can only understand so much about God through our relationship with Him.  But what He really IS in His essence, only the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit knows, and something no creation is able to know.  Therefore, beyond this, we call "mystery" and the Trinity truly is a mystery at some point.

Now, what is a Muslim God?  The God of the Muslims is a God that can never be in communion with us.  He sends us intermediaries, but He never directly interacts with us, because that would be blasphemy in the eyes of a Muslim.  For God to interact with creation is defiling.  It is in fact a pagan aspect of God, for pagans also believe that it would be defiling for the gods to interact directly with us.  But the Judeo-Christian God is the God that interacts directly with us, and if He does send messengers it's because to show how His messengers interacted with God, and how we can also interact directly with God as His messengers can, even if they be angels, for we are higher than the angels.  But a Muslim God may say he loves us, but only the type of love that is politically correct.  A King who sits on His throne, but never leaves His throne, and creates and sends higher forms of creation, i.e. messengers to do His work for Him.  But Christ is a King who takes His throne and places it in our hearts.  It is through this relationship with Christ that we can understand the Oneness of God in the Trinity, because such is true Love.  But in Islam, it is blasphemy for God to be among us in our midst, but to keep Him in His place away from us, and we only obey His words to us through other more higher beings of His creation.  Where's the love in that?  In Christianity, the fear results from the love to God.  In Islam, the love results from the fear of God.  In Christianity, God came to primarily serve us.  In Islam, God sends messengers to primarily be served.  In Christianity, God is Triune and bring us into unison with Him.  In Islam, God is separate from His creation, and therefore, no need for Triunity.

Therefore, before all else, the concept of love, not a simple love of your fellow peers of faith, but a boundless love of all, even to your archenemies, need to be understood first.  And if that is understood, then one can also understand the true Love, that is who God is.  If Muslims can truly understand this Agape Love, then the foundations of their theology and their practical lives will be shattered.  Then they can come back and talk about the Trinity.

Dear friend, thanx for your post, I hope these will not be your last posts on this thread and I`ll try to be as respectfull as possible.It is really interesting how much people can babble about nothing.You did nothing but 'dodge' 'dodge' 'dodge' and avoid answering direct questions directly and somehow managed to give an answer that really doesn`t say anything of what I really asked.But I appreciate your effort in putting up with a philosophy.

Well, let's take this one by one.  Which is the first question you want answered?  Because I thought maybe I at least answered for you the Christian interpretation of the understanding of the difference between "person" and "individual," especially from the interview with Fr. Thomas Hopko.
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« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2012, 11:56:32 PM »



Was the pre-Incarnational Christ a self-conscious Individual?

   I am going to stay away from using words like self-conscious for now because I feel it's use reduces god to a creation.  What we have to remember is that our sense of self comes from not us but others. One individual equals zero individuals. Simply because a second individual is needed to attest as a receptor and the first individual will get a sense of self because of acknowledgment from the second... That is why a single person can't exist on there own. The same can be said of god. God couldn't exist as one person. So the answer is yes.




Quote
I was refering strictly to the Divine non-enhypostized in humanity, prior to Incarnation Nature.The term "word of God" is an antropomorgy unless it is a metaphor.

         The hypostasis of Christ existed before he took on human nature. The Logo or Word are the same hypostasis of Christ.
It's easier to think of it this way. God the father can't communicate to creation directly so he sent his son to speak to man on his behalf. Also don't attribute just one meaning to the word. Logos also means reason in Greek. So there was a reason as well. That reason was to save mankind.


Quote
A self-conscious individual became Incarnated?


Read # one above.



Quote
Hypostasis is an extremely vague term.Simple question was the Word prior to Incarnation an actual Self-Conscious Individual or an Energy?



The logo consciousness is realized by the other persons in the trinity and they acknowledge the other members. It is said that they share in essence and not energy.



Quote

On the contrary this is exactly what we need to do.The trinitarian idea doesn`t seem to have as much support in the OT as it does in the NT.I`ve heard a priest once say that the Trinity is only a term the fathers used to make their theology more aprehensive in front of Arianism and that in fact we don`t believe in a Trinity-Trinity , but in One God.


No. Lets reiterate. 1 = 0
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« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2012, 09:16:30 AM »



Was the pre-Incarnational Christ a self-conscious Individual?

   I am going to stay away from using words like self-conscious for now because I feel it's use reduces god to a creation.  What we have to remember is that our sense of self comes from not us but others. One individual equals zero individuals. Simply because a second individual is needed to attest as a receptor and the first individual will get a sense of self because of acknowledgment from the second... That is why a single person can't exist on there own. The same can be said of god. God couldn't exist as one person. So the answer is yes.

Descartes has fried your egg.
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« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2012, 09:48:51 AM »



Was the pre-Incarnational Christ a self-conscious Individual?

   I am going to stay away from using words like self-conscious for now because I feel it's use reduces god to a creation.  What we have to remember is that our sense of self comes from not us but others. One individual equals zero individuals. Simply because a second individual is needed to attest as a receptor and the first individual will get a sense of self because of acknowledgment from the second... That is why a single person can't exist on there own. The same can be said of god. God couldn't exist as one person. So the answer is yes.



Descartes has fried your egg.


I don't trust anyone that argues that the seat of the soul is the pineal gland.
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« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2012, 11:22:18 AM »

I read this years ago, but this mode of thinking changed my central understanding of "person" vs. "individual", even changed my whole view of how to read the Church fathers.  Not to sound sensationalist, but this even changed my life in a way.  So, hats off to Fr. Thomas Hopko for this crucial point:

Quote
I prefer the word communion to relationship. The Orthodox approach is that we are made in the image and likeness of God, and that God is a Trinity of persons in absolute identity of being and of life in perfect communion. Therefore, communion is the given. Anything that breaks that communion destroys the very roots of our existence. That’s why forgiveness is essential if there is going to be human life in the image of God. We are all sinners, living with other sinners, and so 70 times 7 times a day we must re-establish communion — and want to do so. The desire is the main thing, and the feeling that it is of value.

The obsession with relationship — the individual in search of relationships — in the modern world shows there is an ontological crack in our being. There is no such thing as an individual. He was created, probably, in a Western European university. We don’t recognize our essential communion. I don’t look at you and say, “You are my life.”

Modern interpretations of the commandment in the Torah reflect this individualistic attitude. The first commandment is that you love God with all your mind, all your soul, and all your strength, and the second is that you love your neighbor as yourself. The only way you can prove you love God is by loving your neighbor, and the only way you can love your neighbor in this world is by endless forgiveness. So, “love your neighbor as yourself.” However, in certain modern editions of the Bible, I have seen this translated as, “You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself.” But that’s not what it says.

I recall a televised discussion program in which we were asked what was most important in Christianity. Part of what I said was that the only way we can find ourselves is to deny ourselves. That’s Christ’s teaching. If you cling to yourself, you lose yourself. The unwillingness to forgive is the ultimate act of not wanting to let yourself go. You want to defend yourself, assert yourself, protect yourself. There is a consistent line through the Gospel — if you want to be the first you must will to be the last. The other fellow, who taught the psychology of religion at a Protestant seminary, said, “What you are saying is the source of the neuroses of Western society. What we need is healthy self-love and healthy self-esteem.” Then he quoted that line, “You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself.” He insisted that you must love yourself first and have a sense of dignity. If one has that, forgiveness is either out of the question or an act of condescension toward the poor sinner. It is no longer an identification with the other as a sinner, too. I said that of course if we are made in the image of God it’s quite self-affirming, and self-hatred is an evil. But my main point is that there is no self there to be defended except the one that comes into existence by the act of love and self-emptying. It’s only by loving the other that myself actually emerges. Forgiveness is at the heart of that.

As we were leaving a venerable old rabbi with a shining face called us over. “That line, you know, comes from the Torah, from Leviticus,” he said, “and it cannot possibly be translated ‘love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ It says, ‘You shall love your neighbor as being your own self’.” Your neighbor is your true self. You have no self in yourself.

After this I started reading the Church Fathers in this light, and that’s what they all say — “Your brother is your life.” I have no self in myself except the one that is fulfilled by loving the other. The Trinitarian character of God is a metaphysical absolute here, so to speak. God’s own self is another — His Son. The same thing happens on the human level. So the minute I don’t feel deeply that my real self is the other, then I’ll have no reason to forgive anyone. But if that is my reality, and my only real self is the other, and my own identity and fulfillment emerges only in the act of loving the other, that gives substance to the idea that we are potentially God-like beings. Now, if you add to that that we are all to some degree faulty and weak and so on, that act of love will always be an act of forgiveness. That’s how I find and fulfill myself as a human being made in God’s image. Otherwise, I cannot. So the act of forgiveness is the very act by which our humanity is constituted. Deny that, and we kill ourselves. It’s a metaphysical suicide.

You are making a distinction here between the individual and the person.

The individual is the person that refuses to love. When a person refuses to identify in being and value with “the least,” even with “the enemy,” then the person becomes an individual, a self enclosed being trying to have proper relationships — usually on his or her own terms. But again, we would say that the person only comes into existence by going out of oneself into communion with the other. So my task is not to decide whether or not I will be in relationship with you but to realize that I am in communion with you: my life is yours, and your life is mine. Without this, there is no way that we are going to be able to carry on.


from http://www.incommunion.org/2005/08/03/living-in-communion/


In other words, the Trinity is not three individuals, but three persons, in the sense that they are perfectly in communion with one another.  This perfect communion from the very beginning is this Oneness.  The One God is the perfection of communion of Love.  Therefore, the awareness of "self" is not there.  The Father is aware in the Son through the Spirit.  The Son is aware in the Father through the Spirit.  The Father is aware in the Spirit through the Son, and the Son is aware in the Spirit through the Father.  The Spirit is aware in the Father through the Son, and the Spirit is aware in the Son through the Father.  This perfection in Trinitarian relationship of awareness of the self in the other, not in oneself, and act of awareness is through the agency of yet another, the perfection of the circle of communion of three, for this is a way in which we can understand the simplest of Oneness in the Threeness.

We on the other hand are persons who can potentially be individuals, but we are to emulate God by acting as self-sacrificing persons as best as possible, as Christ commanded, "Be Perfect, as my Father in heaven is Perfect."  The word "Person" therefore describes a hypostasis that wants to enter into personal relationship.  The Trinity is in fact so personal, that God is also Pantocrator, for God creates so that God may also have a personal relationship with His creation, and this is done in a manner that the Logos, the Son of God may eventually take creation in the form of man as part of His own so that we may enter into this same relationship with the Father and the Holy Spirit as the Logos does, so that we be sons to the Father by the sanctification of the Holy Spirit.

This is only the best way one can explain our relationship with God.  It is how we can relate to God that we can also understand who and what God is.  If God is Perfect Love, then God is Perfectly Triune.  If God is incarnate, then we can be perfected and grafted into this Triune relationship.  It is because God is Love that He is also incarnate, because not only He is Love within Himself, but He loves us, and wants to establish us as love within Himself.  This is a very complex view of God, but the complexity of it all is also worthy of God, for we can only understand so much about God through our relationship with Him.  But what He really IS in His essence, only the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit knows, and something no creation is able to know.  Therefore, beyond this, we call "mystery" and the Trinity truly is a mystery at some point.

Now, what is a Muslim God?  The God of the Muslims is a God that can never be in communion with us.  He sends us intermediaries, but He never directly interacts with us, because that would be blasphemy in the eyes of a Muslim.  For God to interact with creation is defiling.  It is in fact a pagan aspect of God, for pagans also believe that it would be defiling for the gods to interact directly with us.  But the Judeo-Christian God is the God that interacts directly with us, and if He does send messengers it's because to show how His messengers interacted with God, and how we can also interact directly with God as His messengers can, even if they be angels, for we are higher than the angels.  But a Muslim God may say he loves us, but only the type of love that is politically correct.  A King who sits on His throne, but never leaves His throne, and creates and sends higher forms of creation, i.e. messengers to do His work for Him.  But Christ is a King who takes His throne and places it in our hearts.  It is through this relationship with Christ that we can understand the Oneness of God in the Trinity, because such is true Love.  But in Islam, it is blasphemy for God to be among us in our midst, but to keep Him in His place away from us, and we only obey His words to us through other more higher beings of His creation.  Where's the love in that?  In Christianity, the fear results from the love to God.  In Islam, the love results from the fear of God.  In Christianity, God came to primarily serve us.  In Islam, God sends messengers to primarily be served.  In Christianity, God is Triune and bring us into unison with Him.  In Islam, God is separate from His creation, and therefore, no need for Triunity.

Therefore, before all else, the concept of love, not a simple love of your fellow peers of faith, but a boundless love of all, even to your archenemies, need to be understood first.  And if that is understood, then one can also understand the true Love, that is who God is.  If Muslims can truly understand this Agape Love, then the foundations of their theology and their practical lives will be shattered.  Then they can come back and talk about the Trinity.

Dear friend, thanx for your post, I hope these will not be your last posts on this thread and I`ll try to be as respectfull as possible.It is really interesting how much people can babble about nothing.You did nothing but 'dodge' 'dodge' 'dodge' and avoid answering direct questions directly and somehow managed to give an answer that really doesn`t say anything of what I really asked.But I appreciate your effort in putting up with a philosophy.

Well, let's take this one by one.  Which is the first question you want answered?  Because I thought maybe I at least answered for you the Christian interpretation of the understanding of the difference between "person" and "individual," especially from the interview with Fr. Thomas Hopko.

Was the Word prior the Incarnation a self-conscious Individual?Yes or No question.
What precisely got Incarnated of the Virgin and how?
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« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2012, 11:28:06 AM »

Azul, are you suggesting that Christ was just an emanation or something from the Father before the Incarnation but at that point He became a Person?

Yes Christ was something of God's Being, an energy something before the Incarnation.I dunno exactly how to explain what happened at the Incarnation and precisely what got Incarnated.
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« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2012, 11:32:57 AM »

For me the Pre-Incarnated Logos is not a Person but a quality of G-d.I always thought of Him like that.
Why?

Because I always thought of God as being One.
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« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2012, 11:34:47 AM »

For me the Pre-Incarnated Logos is not a Person but a quality of G-d.I always thought of Him like that.There is onle one Person for me, One G-d whose quality is given and determined by the Holy Trinity.

But i`m not sure how to explain the Incarnation.Did this One G-d in his entire Being descended in the Virgin and got Incarnated?



OK. So the answer to the question about trying to convince us of the non-Personhood of the Word rather than asking for help understanding the Eternal Personhood of all Persons of the Trinity was:

yes.

A profitable Fast to you.



It's none of those.I`m trying to convince myself , test and clarify my believes.
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« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2012, 12:27:52 AM »

Was the Word prior the Incarnation a self-conscious Individual?Yes or No question.

First what is a self-conscious Individual?  When you ask about "individual" I say "No, He is not.  He is "a Prosopon of the Trinity," and even that terminology is weak to truly describe the Limitless.  When you ask about "self," I also say, "No!  Because a self is created.  He is uncreated.  He is beyond self."  When you ask about conscious, I say "No!  He is beyond consciousness.  Conscious is who you and I are."

In the end, the question you ask is actually invalid, because God cannot be compared to something that is known in an anthropomorphic sense.

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What precisely got Incarnated of the Virgin and how?

"What" and "How" are mysteries.  The Incarnation is a mystery.  It cannot be explained adequately.  We can only answer "Who."  Because the "What" and the "How" depend on understanding the essence of the divinity of Christ and how it was united to the humanity, and since the understanding is beyond what any human mind is capable of understanding, then this question is also invalid to ask.
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« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2012, 01:05:31 AM »

For me the Pre-Incarnated Logos is not a Person but a quality of G-d.I always thought of Him like that.
Why?

Because I always thought of God as being One.
He is. The word used for "one" when the Tanakh says "God is one" is ahad. This word means unity, not singularity. E pluribus unum.

A singularity is something that cannot be reduced to parts because it is so simple. The Greeks often worshipped this god.
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« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2012, 12:05:41 PM »

For me the Pre-Incarnated Logos is not a Person but a quality of G-d.I always thought of Him like that.
Why?

Because I always thought of God as being One.
He is. The word used for "one" when the Tanakh says "God is one" is ahad. This word means unity, not singularity. E pluribus unum.

A singularity is something that cannot be reduced to parts because it is so simple. The Greeks often worshipped this god.

I always thought of Him as a "Singularity" .
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« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2012, 03:26:53 PM »

For me the Pre-Incarnated Logos is not a Person but a quality of G-d.I always thought of Him like that.
Why?

Because I always thought of God as being One.
He is. The word used for "one" when the Tanakh says "God is one" is ahad. This word means unity, not singularity. E pluribus unum.

A singularity is something that cannot be reduced to parts because it is so simple. The Greeks often worshipped this god.

I always thought of Him as a "Singularity" .
Well I'm afraid that is not the ancient Jewish or Christian understanding of God, but the Monad of the Greeks.
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« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2012, 03:51:36 PM »

For me the Pre-Incarnated Logos is not a Person but a quality of G-d.I always thought of Him like that.
Why?

Because I always thought of God as being One.
He is. The word used for "one" when the Tanakh says "God is one" is ahad. This word means unity, not singularity. E pluribus unum.

A singularity is something that cannot be reduced to parts because it is so simple. The Greeks often worshipped this god.

I always thought of Him as a "Singularity" .
Well I'm afraid that is not the ancient Jewish or Christian understanding of God, but the Monad of the Greeks.

I always thought of Him like that from childhood without knowing much(nothing) of religious phylosophies, but I grew up with God and thanks to Him.
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« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2012, 04:15:08 PM »

For me the Pre-Incarnated Logos is not a Person but a quality of G-d.I always thought of Him like that.
Why?

Because I always thought of God as being One.
He is. The word used for "one" when the Tanakh says "God is one" is ahad. This word means unity, not singularity. E pluribus unum.

A singularity is something that cannot be reduced to parts because it is so simple. The Greeks often worshipped this god.

I always thought of Him as a "Singularity" .
Well I'm afraid that is not the ancient Jewish or Christian understanding of God, but the Monad of the Greeks.

I always thought of Him like that from childhood without knowing much(nothing) of religious phylosophies, but I grew up with God and thanks to Him.

That is great Azul; I really mean it! Now that you are no longer a child, you are seeking a deeper understanding of Him and I also admire this. Most of all, I admire your courage in exploring your issues in public, knowing that you might get uncomplimentary remarks.

That said, may I ask you a question? Do you "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind"? You do not have to answer me, of course. However, if you do, you will more than likely end up thinking why you had a problem with the Holy Trinity of all things? Now, I am not arguing anything here, just predicting.
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« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2012, 07:19:29 PM »

For me the Pre-Incarnated Logos is not a Person but a quality of G-d.I always thought of Him like that.There is onle one Person for me, One G-d whose quality is given and determined by the Holy Trinity.

But i`m not sure how to explain the Incarnation.Did this One G-d in his entire Being descended in the Virgin and got Incarnated?



OK. So the answer to the question about trying to convince us of the non-Personhood of the Word rather than asking for help understanding the Eternal Personhood of all Persons of the Trinity was:

yes.

A profitable Fast to you.



It's none of those.I`m trying to convince myself , test and clarify my believes.

Do you take communion? 
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« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2012, 08:34:43 PM »

I always thought of Him like that from childhood without knowing much(nothing) of religious phylosophies, but I grew up with God and thanks to Him.
Well, I grew up with a vague monadic understanding of God, too. But I don't hold a vague monadic understanding of God.
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« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2012, 11:07:53 PM »

Azul, the Scripture identifies God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yes, this is a mystery and hard to understand. But it's true.

Continuing to pray for you.  Smiley angel
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« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2012, 11:15:30 PM »

For me the Pre-Incarnated Logos is not a Person but a quality of G-d.I always thought of Him like that.
Why?

Because I always thought of God as being One.
He is. The word used for "one" when the Tanakh says "God is one" is ahad. This word means unity, not singularity. E pluribus unum.

A singularity is something that cannot be reduced to parts because it is so simple. The Greeks often worshipped this god.

I always thought of Him as a "Singularity" .
Well I'm afraid that is not the ancient Jewish or Christian understanding of God, but the Monad of the Greeks.

I always thought of Him like that from childhood without knowing much(nothing) of religious phylosophies, but I grew up with God and thanks to Him.

Well, will you continue holding your guesswork idea of God or will you accept the teachings of your Church based on His revelation to man?
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« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2012, 11:41:04 AM »

For me the Pre-Incarnated Logos is not a Person but a quality of G-d.I always thought of Him like that.
Why?

Because I always thought of God as being One.
He is. The word used for "one" when the Tanakh says "God is one" is ahad. This word means unity, not singularity. E pluribus unum.

A singularity is something that cannot be reduced to parts because it is so simple. The Greeks often worshipped this god.

I always thought of Him as a "Singularity" .

I usually discern it like this. Have you ever spoken a word at the same time as someone else? At that very moment you both had exact kinetics of thought. That is how it is with the trinity. Except that every kinisis of thought is continually the same. One in thought and three in substance is just one facet that we can see that the one and three works in conjunction. It's basically a loop hole in mathematics.  Just to add to this complexity we can say they are one in thought, persona and essence while three in substance and hypostasis. Than you will have a hell of a time discerning that. Wink
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« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2012, 12:59:37 PM »

What is the intra-trinitarian perichoretic interpenetration?
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« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2012, 07:26:13 PM »

First off, William, cool it with the tough guy stuff.

What is the intra-trinitarian perichoretic interpenetration?

Perichoresis is a fancy word that means that the Word and the Spirit live within and dwell within the Father and each other in an infinitely intimate way.

"It happened, in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and  he was baptized by John in the Jordan. Immediately coming up from the water, he saw the heavens torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. A voice came out of the heavens, 'You are my beloved Son, in you I am well pleased." -Mark 1
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« Reply #70 on: March 08, 2012, 12:24:12 AM »

What is the intra-trinitarian perichoretic interpenetration?

Unity of Triune Love
by Abbot Sophronius (10th century Coptic Hermit)

(Translated from Coptic by George Bebawi, Ph.D., As appeared in Coptic Church Review; Vol.25, number 4, Winter 2004

God is love because He is triune; or is it because He is triune that He is love? Love and Trinity are the same. In the Godhead there is the spring of love, the Father; the revelation of love, the Son; the giving and the communion of love, the Holy Spirit.

The Father loves His Son and the Son is His beloved. The Son sends the Spirit, who is the Spirit of the Father, and that is why the Son said “All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you." John 16:14

The Holy Spirit is the Sprit of communion; He proceeds from the Father and rests in the Son and opens the fountain of love for us.
The Father is the beloved of the Son and the beloved of the Holy Spirit. For each of the Three is lover and beloved.

W H E N
The Son takes His office as Mediator, the Son is the beloved of the Father.
The Son offers His life for the world, the Father is the beloved of the Son.
The Holy Spirit proceeds for the Incarnation of the Son, the Son is the beloved of the Holy Spirit.
The Son sends the Holy Spirit of the Father, the Holy Spirit becomes the beloved of the Son.

The movement of love of the Holy Thriad is the perichoresis, where Each exchanges His movement with the other. When we pray in the beloved Lord Jesus Christ, we receive from Him the Holy Spirit because the Son is the Head of the new creation. But we also receive the Son our Lord from the Holy Spirit in order to rest in the Father.

The movement of the humility of God, the Trinity, is like that; the Father comes to us in His Son, and the Son comes to us in the Holy Spirit. When we receive the Son from the Holy Spirit, we ascend to the Father to rest in Him.

Let us embark on this journey by taking our beginning with the Son who eternally took His beginning from the Father - the true Beginning (arche) of the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Let us surrender to the Love of God the Father who is revealed in His Son and is communicated to us in the Son through the Holy Spirit.
We surrender to the Son who emptied Himself and took our form. We accept to be crucified with Him in the mystery of baptism, that by His humility we may have the first taste of divine love - the love that does not take anything from us but gives everything first to receive us. The humble love of the Divine who empties Himself, even of His holiness, to become a slave in order to lift up the slave to the divine love; for God loves for no reason, no necessity, because love is His very nature.

Let us explore with holiness the divine love and take the holy word of God as our beginning, and His love as our goal. Let us have no reason for loving God as the Trinity has no reason for being the Communion of love of the Three, who love because love is their nature.
Let us look at the cross to learn sacrificial love, the love of the Trinity who offered the Son for sinners; who was declared to be Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness by resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, (Romans 1:4)
When we die we can love even to the point of physical death for then, and only then, we can complete our baptism and receive divine love, and then love like the Trinity because our love comes from Him.

The Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father and rests in the Son takes us to the Bosom of the Father. The holy apostle told us that since we are the children of the Father, the Father sends the Spirit of His Son (the Spirit who rests in the Son from Eternity or from the beginning, and because of His Incarnation rests on Him) to be for us our Unction, to anoint us in Him and with Him because He is the second Adam and the head of the new creation which receives the Holy Spirit for eternal life.

Let us pray in Jesus our true Intercessor to be anointed by the Holy Spirit in Him and by Him who is our high-priest to rest in the Bosom of the Father.

True prayer in the Holy Spirit is when we cry Abba Father. This short cry includes the mystery of our salvation. We look at the Spring of Love, God the Father, the Revelation of Love, God the Son, and the Communion of Love, God the Holy Spirit. When we are adopted we know that they are not three gods but one God in Three. We discern the Three and we discern the moment of divine love because divine love is not static but dynamic.

In His mercy the Father moves always to the Beloved and the Beloved moves always to the Holy Spirit. Let us not imagine distance or time but just as our blood moves by the pulse of our heart and by our breathing so in like manner the Three move towards each other. This movement is one of distinction and differences. The three are not just names in the Godhead but Three Hypostases in one Ousia. Three Beloved in the one communion of Love; three lovers in the one undivided love. The Father is the Spring from whom comes the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Son is the Revelation who reveals the Father and gives the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Gift of communion who proceeds from the Father and rests in the Son and brings the whole creation to this communion.


Let us recapitulate:

God is love; that is why God is Trinity.
Love is communion and communion is between more than one
Self love is the foundation of love
Self giving is the very communion between two, but shared love of two with a third transcends the closed relationship of the two. When two who love each other as equals share their love with a third equal, they move from the exclusive dyadic love to the communal triadic love. Triadic love is perfect for these reasons:
1. It is communal because more than two is a community.
2. It does not stop at exclusive dyadic love because a third who shares the love of the two, gives back the same love of the two.
3. It is the circle of infinite movement for two do not make a circle, but three close the circle as each stands in the one third of the circle and makes it complete.
If we apply this to the Holy Trinity we can see that the movement of love is a movement of perichoresis (AGreek word which is equivalent to the Latin circumcession); both mean penetration and dance.

Concluding in Grace:

Now generation reaches its climax, and procession its goal to perfect the plan of our salvation. The One who is always with the Father and in the Father has created in Himself the new humanity. It was new from the very moment of his conception but it had not met our death. It met death in the flesh by the power of the Anointing which Jesus received for us at His baptism. At His conception in the womb of Mary, Jesus received from the Holy Spirit the foundation of the new creation. This new creation has its beginning in the Holy Spirit and in communion with the Father because the Father is its Arche (source); the Son is its Mediator and the Holy Spirit is its life. This happened secretly while the world was asleep.


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