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Author Topic: St. Maximilian Kolbe and the "quasi"-incarnation  (Read 4309 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2012, 12:22:26 PM »

When your ecclesiology is not related to the ongoing discussion in any way?

Well, yes and no. Most of the discussion on this thread has been rooted in William's question of whether an Orthodox can venerate St. Maximilian; but the opening post (now largely forgotten) did actually ask for RC opinions on him.
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« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2012, 12:32:33 PM »

When your ecclesiology is not related to the ongoing discussion in any way?

Well, yes and no. Most of the discussion on this thread has been rooted in William's question of whether an Orthodox can venerate St. Maximilian; but the opening post (now largely forgotten) did actually ask for RC opinions on him.

Thank you for that, Peter!
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« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2012, 12:32:44 PM »

One point of clarification (or maybe just emphasis)--the term proceeds was actually 'chosen' by Christ.

No. The word proceed (procedere) was chosen by St. Jerome.

what is the original greek word, as the creed was originally in greek?
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« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2012, 12:42:01 PM »

When Catholic ecclesiology is challenged, do you expect me or other Catholics to sit idly by and not take up that challenge, to the best of our abilities--mine being pretty limited, admittedly?

When your ecclesiology is not related to the ongoing discussion in any way?

Pretty so.

Our ecclesiology was/is "...related to the ongoing discussion...".  The very fact of anyone mentioning whether or not any given Catholic is "part of the Church" opens the door and brings it into play.
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« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2012, 01:11:34 PM »

One point of clarification (or maybe just emphasis)--the term proceeds was actually 'chosen' by Christ.

No. The word proceed (procedere) was chosen by St. Jerome.

what is the original greek word, as the creed was originally in greek?

ἐκπορευόμενον
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« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2012, 01:43:26 PM »

One point of clarification (or maybe just emphasis)--the term proceeds was actually 'chosen' by Christ.

No. The word proceed (procedere) was chosen by St. Jerome.

what is the original greek word, as the creed was originally in greek?

ἐκπορευόμενον

It definitely isn't a very catchy word.
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« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2012, 02:31:45 PM »

One point of clarification (or maybe just emphasis)--the term proceeds was actually 'chosen' by Christ.

No. The word proceed (procedere) was chosen by St. Jerome.

what is the original greek word, as the creed was originally in greek?

ἐκπορευόμενον

It definitely isn't a very catchy word.

wutev.

its my vanity plate.
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« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2012, 05:31:33 PM »

I just want to inform everyone that I will not be replying to any replies to my previous post in this thread.  It became rather clear to me, fairly quickly, that people have no intention of actually listening to anything I have to say on the matter, and will instead just repeatedly tell me I am wrong, regardless of what I actually say.
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« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2012, 06:37:56 PM »

One point of clarification (or maybe just emphasis)--the term proceeds was actually 'chosen' by Christ.

No. The word proceed (procedere) was chosen by St. Jerome.

what is the original greek word, as the creed was originally in greek?

ἐκπορευόμενον

It definitely isn't a very catchy word.

wutev.

its my vanity plate.

i thought only 7 char is allowed?
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« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2012, 07:53:58 PM »

However, with all due respect, why would the Orthodox care about whether his teaching, as explained in the link you provided, is a pious opinion or anything else for that matter? 

Because otherwise he seemed like an incredibly saintly person. I'd like to know whether it'd be proper to privately venerate him or if his weird theology would prevent that.

Weird theology and not being Orthodox
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« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2012, 07:55:15 PM »

However, with all due respect, why would the Orthodox care about whether his teaching, as explained in the link you provided, is a pious opinion or anything else for that matter? 

Because otherwise he seemed like an incredibly saintly person. I'd like to know whether it'd be proper to privately venerate him or if his weird theology would prevent that.

Venerate St Maximilian Kolbe? I think most EO would say it's not ok...

Why? Is allowing yourself to be slowly starved in palce of another person not saintly?  Huh

The criteria for veneration are more exacting.
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« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2012, 07:57:24 PM »

Well, many Fathers - I believe this is also the general consensus, at least in the earlier centuries of the Church - held to the view that to become a martyr if you aren't part of the Church, is to commit suicide. 

That seems very strange.

If, say, a Buddhist was martyred for being a Buddhist, that obviously wouldn't be equivalent to Christian martyrdom; but to call it suicide? That doesn't make sense.

Many Patristic phrases seem harsh or confusing like St. Athanasius of Alexandria saying that the baptism of heretics is a baptism into atheism.
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« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2012, 08:02:08 PM »

I just want to inform everyone that I will not be replying to any replies to my previous post in this thread.  It became rather clear to me, fairly quickly, that people have no intention of actually listening to anything I have to say on the matter, and will instead just repeatedly tell me I am wrong, regardless of what I actually say.

Happens a lot here.
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« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2012, 08:08:55 PM »

One point of clarification (or maybe just emphasis)--the term proceeds was actually 'chosen' by Christ.

No. The word proceed (procedere) was chosen by St. Jerome.

what is the original greek word, as the creed was originally in greek?

ἐκπορευόμενον

It definitely isn't a very catchy word.

wutev.

its my vanity plate.

i thought only 7 char is allowed?

He just removes all of the vowels, so it reads "kprvmnn".
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« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2012, 08:40:25 PM »

I just want to inform everyone that I will not be replying to any replies to my previous post in this thread.  It became rather clear to me, fairly quickly, that people have no intention of actually listening to anything I have to say on the matter, and will instead just repeatedly tell me I am wrong, regardless of what I actually say.

You give up pretty easily.
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« Reply #60 on: March 02, 2012, 09:00:26 PM »

However, with all due respect, why would the Orthodox care about whether his teaching, as explained in the link you provided, is a pious opinion or anything else for that matter? 

Because otherwise he seemed like an incredibly saintly person. I'd like to know whether it'd be proper to privately venerate him or if his weird theology would prevent that.

Venerate St Maximilian Kolbe? I think most EO would say it's not ok...

Why? Is allowing yourself to be slowly starved in palce of another person not saintly?  Huh

Well, in order to venerate him, you would probably need either an icon or a relic of him...do you have either? Or are you referring to praying to him for intercession? Like I said, he's a post schism RC saint, so most EO would not acknowledge him as a saint that EO would venerate...not on our calendar, or anything like that...

I'm not asking to put him on the calendar. I'm talking about private veneration. I've heard that veneration of post schism saints can be okay potentially if it's private.

I see what St. Kolbe is trying to say. If one actually reads through the passage, it is not heterodox per se, but the term "quasi-incarnation" can be problemactic because it could lend itself to heterdox interpretations. I think St. Kolbe should have just dropped the term altogether, and instead, discussed the intimate relationship between the Holy Spirit and the Theotokos, on its own terms.

Yeah, seems like he was trying to push the boundaries just for the sake of pushing the boundaries.

However, with all due respect, why would the Orthodox care about whether his teaching, as explained in the link you provided, is a pious opinion or anything else for that matter?

Because otherwise he seemed like an incredibly saintly person. I'd like to know whether it'd be proper to privately venerate him or if his weird theology would prevent that.

Why would you venerate a man who started an organisation which main goal is "to proselytize sinners, heretics and schismatics" (what means us).

Can you give me more information on this?

Quote
If you are looking for a Saint that was martyred in Auschwitz, check him.

Thanks, I'll check this out later.

That is the Catholic Church, Roman and Eastern sui juris churches all in communion with the Pope.  We are in what is called, by us,  an imperfect communion with the Orthodox Churches.  If you or others wish to totally dissociate yourselves from us, and deny that we, along with our saints, including St. Kolbe, are indeed "part of the Church", that is your right.  God gave you free will.  It is also your inestimable loss.  It is our loss, too, unfortunately.

This is pretty obviously an unscriptural, untraditiona and unpatristic way of looking at ecclesiology.

I sympathize with you objecting to the absurd implication that what Kolbe did was suicide, but your assertion of ultramontane ecclesiology as something that everyone should accept by default on an Orthodox forum is extremely obnoxious.

I just want to inform everyone that I will not be replying to any replies to my previous post in this thread.  It became rather clear to me, fairly quickly, that people have no intention of actually listening to anything I have to say on the matter, and will instead just repeatedly tell me I am wrong, regardless of what I actually say.

Pulling a Cartman? Sounds like a way of getting out of defending your ridiculous assertion. Thanks for not giving a single citation, by the way.
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« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2012, 09:58:10 AM »

Can you give me more information on this?

Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Immaculata
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« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2012, 10:30:08 AM »


Yeah, I figured you were talking about Militia Immaculata; however, the link you gave doesn't say that their main goal is "to proselytize sinners, heretics and schismatics".
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« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2012, 11:37:29 AM »


Or here: http://www.consecration.com/
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« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2012, 01:34:00 PM »

I sympathize with you objecting to the absurd implication that what Kolbe did was suicide, but your assertion of ultramontane ecclesiology as something that everyone should accept by default on an Orthodox forum is extremely obnoxious.

Where did I assert that "everyone should accept by default" an ultramontanist ecclesiology?  I stated quite simply and clearly the known position of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis Orthodoxy, something which has been stated numerous times on this forum by multiple posters.  My assertion, as you call it, is only that the Catholic Church is, along with Orthodoxy, part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  What I find extremely unfortunate, and hence a loss for all concerned, is that many Orthodox choose to totally deny us that position and to have nothing to do with us, other, perhaps, than to condemn, berate, and belittle us.  Everyone, I believe, loses in that situation.  If you find that an "obnoxious" position, so be it.

It is not only an "absurd implication" that Saint Kolbe committed suicide, but equally if not more obnoxious to me that you and others repeatedly omit the honorific "Saint" when referring to him.  Probably as disrespectful and obnoxious as if I or other Catholics were to refer to St. Maria Skobtsova simply as "Skobtsova".  Look at it this way, if the Catholic Church refused to recognize that Orthodoxy is part of "the Church", I could (but wouldn't simply out of basic respect) assert that St. Maria Skobtsova was just "Skobtsova", a mad woman who committed suicide during the Holocaust.  Somehow I don't think that would go down very well, don't you?

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« Reply #65 on: March 03, 2012, 02:33:42 PM »


Yeah, I figured you were talking about Militia Immaculata; however, the link you gave doesn't say that their main goal is "to proselytize sinners, heretics and schismatics".

Have you opened it?

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The purpose of the Knights is contained in these words: to do all you can for the conversion of sinners, heretics, schismatics and so on
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« Reply #66 on: March 03, 2012, 02:43:14 PM »


Yeah, I figured you were talking about Militia Immaculata; however, the link you gave doesn't say that their main goal is "to proselytize sinners, heretics and schismatics".

Have you opened it?

Quote
The purpose of the Knights is contained in these words: to do all you can for the conversion of sinners, heretics, schismatics and so on

Oh, I see. (I had only done a search for the word "proselytize".)
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« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2012, 02:43:44 PM »


Yeah, I figured you were talking about Militia Immaculata; however, the link you gave doesn't say that their main goal is "to proselytize sinners, heretics and schismatics".

Have you opened it?

Quote
The purpose of the Knights is contained in these words: to do all you can for the conversion of sinners, heretics, schismatics and so on

I don't think they identify Orthodox Christians as either heretics or schismatics, do they?  Besides, if you are strong enough and secure enough in your faith, I'd think you'd have nothing to worry about, even if they did.
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« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2012, 02:47:14 PM »

Why would you venerate a man who started an organisation which main goal is "to proselytize sinners, heretics and schismatics" (what means us).

If you'll forgive me for butting into an intra-Orthodox conversation, I think it needs to be kept in mind that this was before Vatican II (FWIW).
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« Reply #69 on: March 03, 2012, 02:52:49 PM »

Why would you venerate a man who started an organisation which main goal is "to proselytize sinners, heretics and schismatics" (what means us).

If you'll forgive me for butting into an intra-Orthodox conversation, I think it needs to be kept in mind that this was before Vatican II (FWIW).

Just as a point of information, mainly for Michal Kalina, St. Maximilian Kolbe was canonized as a *martyr*, totally apart from any efforts to proselytize "sinners, heretics, and schismatics".
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« Reply #70 on: March 03, 2012, 03:08:03 PM »

After thinking a little more about my last statement

Why would you venerate a man who started an organisation which main goal is "to proselytize sinners, heretics and schismatics" (what means us).

If you'll forgive me for butting into an intra-Orthodox conversation, I think it needs to be kept in mind that this was before Vatican II (FWIW).

I'm actually not so sure it does make a difference, at least in the way I had in mind. After all, Vatican II tells us:

Quote
... We believe that this unity subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time.

However, it is evident that, when individuals wish for full Catholic communion, their preparation and reconciliation is an undertaking which of its nature is distinct from ecumenical action. But there is no opposition between the two, since both proceed from the marvelous ways of God.
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« Reply #71 on: March 03, 2012, 03:23:20 PM »

Why would you venerate a man who started an organisation which main goal is "to proselytize sinners, heretics and schismatics" (what means us).

If you'll forgive me for butting into an intra-Orthodox conversation, I think it needs to be kept in mind that this was before Vatican II (FWIW).

Just as a point of information, mainly for Michal Kalina, St. Maximilian Kolbe was canonized as a *martyr*, totally apart from any efforts to proselytize "sinners, heretics, and schismatics".

If I recall, that caused some controversy, because his death was not caused by hatred of the faith but from an act of his own charity, hence his unofficial designation as a martyr of charity.

Laying one's life down for another is truly noble, but it falls short of martyrdom as it would traditionally be defined (dying for faith in Christ). The Roman Catholic Church is, of course, free to redefine her terminology as much as she wants, but I just thought it would be worth pointing out that if this were an Orthodox man, he would probably be canonized as 'passion-bearer' or something similar.
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« Reply #72 on: March 03, 2012, 06:40:05 PM »

I don't think they identify Orthodox Christians as either heretics or schismatics, do they?  Besides, if you are strong enough and secure enough in your faith, I'd think you'd have nothing to worry about, even if they did.

http://www.ultramontes.pl/Kolbe_20.htm

An article by him where he describes the Orthodox Church as "the religion that was not created by Christ".

Just as a point of information, mainly for Michal Kalina, St. Maximilian Kolbe was canonized as a *martyr*, totally apart from any efforts to proselytize "sinners, heretics, and schismatics".

Does this mean that he had revoked his beliefs before his death?


Laying one's life down for another is truly noble, but it falls short of martyrdom as it would traditionally be defined (dying for faith in Christ). The Roman Catholic Church is, of course, free to redefine her terminology as much as she wants, but I just thought it would be worth pointing out that if this were an Orthodox man, he would probably be canonized as 'passion-bearer' or something similar.

"Passion-bearer" is a Russian thing. I know about several real Saints that died in a similar way and are described by the Church as martyrs because they weren't canonised by the Church of Russia.
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« Reply #73 on: March 03, 2012, 06:58:59 PM »

I don't think they identify Orthodox Christians as either heretics or schismatics, do they? 

Perhaps you're thinking of "Catholic Answers". I've lost count of how many different posters on their forum this week have said that Catholicism and Orthodox are the same, or that "The filioque and the Immaculate Conception are from what I read just differences in theology from East and West." (And yes, I have asked them what "just differences in theology" means, but I haven't gotten much of an answer.)
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« Reply #74 on: March 03, 2012, 09:22:06 PM »

I don't think they identify Orthodox Christians as either heretics or schismatics, do they?  Besides, if you are strong enough and secure enough in your faith, I'd think you'd have nothing to worry about, even if they did.

http://www.ultramontes.pl/Kolbe_20.htm

An article by him where he describes the Orthodox Church as "the religion that was not created by Christ".

Guess those of us who neither read, write, nor understand Polish (?) will have to take your word for it  Roll Eyes.  Care to provide a version translated into English so that your assertion can be verified? 

Just as a point of information, mainly for Michal Kalina, St. Maximilian Kolbe was canonized as a *martyr*, totally apart from any efforts to proselytize "sinners, heretics, and schismatics".

Does this mean that he had revoked his beliefs before his death?

Uh... I don't think so.  Why would he?  If you read the article about him it states quite clearly that he was canonized as a martyr, a martyr of charity.  Now, whether the beliefs of his you mention played a part in it, I really don't know.  The fact of the matter is that he *was* canonized, and he *is* a saint.  If St. Kolbe believed that Orthodox were heretics and/or schismatics, so be it.  Doesn't bother me in the least, really.  He was as entitled to his beliefs as you are to yours.  None of that changes the fact of his sainthood.  You are not required, obligated, or even asked to venerate him or ask for his prayers.  Personally, it matters not a whit to me who you venerate.  I would only ask that you give him the same minimum of respect that you might want a Catholic to give to say, St. Maria Skobtsova.  That's all.  I really don't think that's asking too much.  I realize, of course, that others may think it is.  Oh well.....




Whether one calls St. Kolbe a passion-bearer or martyr of charity or just plain martyr changes nothing.


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« Reply #75 on: March 03, 2012, 09:30:04 PM »

I don't think they identify Orthodox Christians as either heretics or schismatics, do they? 

Perhaps you're thinking of "Catholic Answers". I've lost count of how many different posters on their forum this week have said that Catholicism and Orthodox are the same, or that "The filioque and the Immaculate Conception are from what I read just differences in theology from East and West." (And yes, I have asked them what "just differences in theology" means, but I haven't gotten much of an answer.)

Actually, I wasn't.  But I'd venture to guess that the opinions on CAF are about as (un) representative of Catholics as a whole as the opinions of Orthodox here are as (un) representative of Orthodox as a whole.  But, that's just a guess, of course  Wink.

And you know what....some of those posters there *may* just be correct.  Without knowing what was said and the context the posts, it's really impossible to tell.  Nor does it matter for this discussion.

My point in what you quoted above was that the Militia Immaculata, as far as I can determine, doesn't identify Orthodox as heretics or schismatics.  In fact, I don't think they give Orthodox a second thought at all.  Or even a first thought, for that matter.  And, so far, we only have Michal Kalina's word for it that St. Kolbe himself may have thought otherwise.  If he did, that doesn't make him wrong.  Nor does it make him right.  Nor, especially,  does it undo his actions at Auschwitz for which he was ultimately canonized.
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« Reply #76 on: March 03, 2012, 11:37:48 PM »

J Michael, this is Google Translate's version of the second half of the article:

And if those who were not Catholic? - Second lady interjected. - I for one am Orthodox.

- Then we must dig deeper. All men are brothers, and even the Orthodox Church that same worship Christ the Lord. There could, however, say that religion is the religion of the Orthodox Church, which Christ the Lord founded.

- And why not?

- Because the truth is only one. "Yes" and "no", can not be together right. Well, we say that the Holy Father is the visible head of the Church of Christ, Orthodox but they deny. They can not be both true sentence.

- Serve abolished.

- Well, Christ the Lord knew that there will be different apostasy and gave a clear standard, after which we can know His Church. Addressing itself to St. Peter said: "You are the rock, and upon this rock I will build my Church." Its so the Church is the one on this rock to support, and the successors of St. Peter is not the Russian tsars, but the Popes.

It is not a particularly good translation, but I think the point comes across fairly clearly.
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« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2012, 10:45:05 AM »

Uh... I don't think so.  Why would he?  If you read the article about him it states quite clearly that he was canonized as a martyr, a martyr of charity.  Now, whether the beliefs of his you mention played a part in it, I really don't know.  The fact of the matter is that he *was* canonized, and he *is* a saint. 

And what do you, as a Jewish person, think of his antisemitism?

My point in what you quoted above was that the Militia Immaculata, as far as I can determine, doesn't identify Orthodox as heretics or schismatics.  In fact, I don't think they give Orthodox a second thought at all.

Are we talking about his beliefs or about the current beliefs of the organisation he started?
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« Reply #78 on: March 04, 2012, 11:47:13 AM »

Uh... I don't think so.  Why would he?  If you read the article about him it states quite clearly that he was canonized as a martyr, a martyr of charity.  Now, whether the beliefs of his you mention played a part in it, I really don't know.  The fact of the matter is that he *was* canonized, and he *is* a saint.  

And what do you, as a Jewish person, think of his antisemitism?

My point in what you quoted above was that the Militia Immaculata, as far as I can determine, doesn't identify Orthodox as heretics or schismatics.  In fact, I don't think they give Orthodox a second thought at all.

Are we talking about his beliefs or about the current beliefs of the organisation he started?

I wasn't aware that he was anti-semitic.  Please cite a source for that.  I dislike anti-semitism wherever it comes from--as a Jewish person.  And as a Christian.  Whether he was or wasn't has no bearing on the fact of his sainthood and why he was canonized.  

I wonder just how many Orthodox saints ever expressed anti-semitic opinions?  See, for example, this about St. Nickolai Vleimirovic: Anti-semitism

Some of Velimirović's writings are viewed as anti-semitic.[7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18] He has been criticized for his writings in the book "Through the Prison Window" written while he was a prisoner in the Dachau concentration camp:

    19]

According to the social psychologist Jovan Byford, similar and although less violent remarks can be found in New Speeches under the Mountain, The Ohrid Prologue or Indian Letters[20][21][22]

In his "Through the Prison Window", he was puzzled why the Europeans showed so much tolerance to the Jews and could not see through their "ploys". He also criticized European scientific achievements in the field of particle physics for being anti-Christian and possibly introduced by Jews. Further, he criticized the "mania for cleanliness" as being introduced by the Jews.[23]

Despite the Anti-Semitism accusations, it is recorded that he protected and helped escape from Nazi-occupied Serbia one Jewish family. Ela Trifunović, born Neuheus, wrote to the Serbian Orthodox Church in 2001, claiming that she had spent 18 months hiding in Ljubostinja monastery where she was smuggled by Velimirović, guarded and later helped move on with false papers.[24]
"

The above can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaj_Velimirovi%C4%87

I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion about anti-semitism, but I do want to show that if St. Kolbe ever expressed anti-semitic sentiments, he certainly wasn't alone amongst the saints.

You linked the M.I.  It was their position that you quoted.  So, I guess we're talking about the Militia Immaculata's beliefs, which, of course, St. Kolbe did found
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« Reply #79 on: March 04, 2012, 12:17:18 PM »

I wasn't aware that he was anti-semitic.  Please cite a source for that.

Here: http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-holocaust&month=9606&week=c&msg=yd83edlXY7PXojAVxI%2B9bg&user=&pw=

Quote
Why are you so intent on dragging him down and trying to belittle him?

I am not doing that. I am only surprised how can you venerate him so much when you know almost nothing about him.
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« Reply #80 on: March 04, 2012, 12:20:04 PM »

I wasn't aware that he was anti-semitic.  Please cite a source for that.

Here: http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-holocaust&month=9606&week=c&msg=yd83edlXY7PXojAVxI%2B9bg&user=&pw=

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Why are you so intent on dragging him down and trying to belittle him?

I am not doing that. I am only surprised how can you venerate him so much when you know almost nothing about him.

I may know far more about him than you think.  The fact that he has been canonized is enough for me--yes, even as a Jew.  There are also other reasons not relevant to this discussion.
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« Reply #81 on: March 04, 2012, 12:32:36 PM »

Uh... I don't think so.  Why would he?  If you read the article about him it states quite clearly that he was canonized as a martyr, a martyr of charity.  Now, whether the beliefs of his you mention played a part in it, I really don't know.  The fact of the matter is that he *was* canonized, and he *is* a saint. 

And what do you, as a Jewish person, think of his antisemitism?

My point in what you quoted above was that the Militia Immaculata, as far as I can determine, doesn't identify Orthodox as heretics or schismatics.  In fact, I don't think they give Orthodox a second thought at all.

Are we talking about his beliefs or about the current beliefs of the organisation he started?



This is from the article you linked: "Kolbe was a militant Catholic, anti-liberal, anti-secular and anti-
Masonic, and opposed anybody, Jew or Gentile, whom he saw as a proponent
of secularism. He was ex officio responsible, as head of Niepokalanow,
for its publications, which contained, to a varying degree, anti-Semitic
materials. "Maly Dziennik," a daily paper, popular, with the greatest
circulation, without question published anti-Semitic drivel.

It's difficult not to conclude that Father Kolbe failed in his responsi-
bility adequately to oversee the publications of his monastery. In that,
he was the man of his time and place.

But it is not possible to identify him with such clearly anti-Semitic
clergymen such as, e. g., Monsignors Trzeciak and Charszewski.

If by an anti-Semite one means someone who is against all Jews merely
because they are Jews, then Father Kolbe was not an anti-Semite."



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« Reply #82 on: March 04, 2012, 03:07:17 PM »

During this holy season of the fast,  I am trying to refrain from posting. However, the tone and tenor of this thread has me particularly distressed and I feel compelled to comment. One thing I do agree with here is the assertion that neither this forum, nor CAF, are accurate representations of the views of most adherents to either Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism with respect to each other.

When we start getting into the area of 'my saint is saintlier than your saint', I have a problem. There is little doubt that St. Maximillian Kolbe was canonized for his role in laying down his life for another rather than for any particular teaching or organization he may, or may not, have espoused in his lifetime. Certainly, an analogy may be drawn between that and the glorification of the last Tsar - as I understand it, his glorification in many ways comes from how he led his life after abdication and in the manner of his grisly death - not for the acts as Tsar within his lifetime. (Certainly his glorification is not without critics within Orthodoxy.) I leave those judgments to God - not the internets.

On a personal level, I am related from my paternal grandmother's side of the family to Blessed Pavel (Goidich) who died in a Slovak prison rather than submit to the Communist state's forced liquidation of the Greek Catholic Church. From studying his life, and understanding the tortured history of his people on both sides of the Atlantic, I have little personal doubt of the value of his life, the value of his death and his status in the eyes of the Lord. That doesn't mean that we should be glorifying him in the Orthodox sense as he was surely not Orthodox - however, that fact doesn't diminish or lessen the Christian life and death that he led. As for me, I have little doubt that Blessed Pavel seeks the intercession of Christ and his Blessed Mother for the protection of his people here on earth and for the preservation of their Eastern Christianity and for the unity of the Faith. If that is veneration - so be it. No apology here.
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« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2012, 04:14:29 PM »

It is not only an "absurd implication" that Saint Kolbe committed suicide, but equally if not more obnoxious to me that you and others repeatedly omit the honorific "Saint" when referring to him.  Probably as disrespectful and obnoxious as if I or other Catholics were to refer to St. Maria Skobtsova simply as "Skobtsova".  Look at it this way, if the Catholic Church refused to recognize that Orthodoxy is part of "the Church", I could (but wouldn't simply out of basic respect) assert that St. Maria Skobtsova was just "Skobtsova", a mad woman who committed suicide during the Holocaust.  Somehow I don't think that would go down very well, don't you?

I'm not asserting that Kolbe committed suicide or that he was mad by not putting two letters in front of his name. I'm just expressing the fact that I don't know his standing with the Lord. I do not hold Roman Catholic canonizations to be authoritative.

I wouldn't think it obnoxious if you referred to St. Maria as "Skobtsova." I would find it very obnoxious if you said something like "Saint" Maria Skobtsova with the quotation marks indicating sarcasm like a coreligionist of yours did in referring to St. John Maximatovitch.
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« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2012, 05:02:06 PM »

Are we talking about his beliefs or about the current beliefs of the organisation he started?

No reason we can't be talking about both.

But the suggestion I'd make at this point is that, since it was William who asked whether it'd be proper to privately venerate St. Maximilian, we should ask him whether or not he wants more answers to that question.
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« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2012, 05:10:33 PM »

But the suggestion I'd make at this point is that, since it was William who asked whether it'd be proper to privately venerate St. Maximilian, we should ask him whether or not he wants more answers to that question.

I'll ask my priest if I get a chance and it seems pertinent. I don't want to stir the pot anymore in this thread.
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« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2012, 05:19:22 PM »

But the suggestion I'd make at this point is that, since it was William who asked whether it'd be proper to privately venerate St. Maximilian, we should ask him whether or not he wants more answers to that question.

I'll ask my priest if I get a chance and it seems pertinent. I don't want to stir the pot anymore in this thread.

That seems like the best way to deal with the issue, rather than relying on us hard-nosed and sometimes oversensitive amateurs  Wink  Grin.

Personally, I've really had enough of this thread and agree with podkarpatska's post above.  I shall continue to venerate St. Maximilian and ask for his prayers.  My Orthodox brothers and sisters may, of course, do what they like, in accordance with their ecclesiology and theology.  Far be it from me to criticize them or their choices of saints to venerate and ask for intercessory prayers from.
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« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2012, 05:55:17 PM »

But the suggestion I'd make at this point is that, since it was William who asked whether it'd be proper to privately venerate St. Maximilian, we should ask him whether or not he wants more answers to that question.

I'll ask my priest if I get a chance and it seems pertinent. I don't want to stir the pot anymore in this thread.

Why would you like to do that?
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« Reply #88 on: March 04, 2012, 07:14:28 PM »

I'll ask my priest if I get a chance and it seems pertinent. I don't want to stir the pot anymore in this thread.

Why would you like to do that?

Well sometimes you have to, to keep it from burning.
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« Reply #89 on: March 13, 2012, 10:44:55 AM »

Why would you venerate a man who started an organisation which main goal is "to proselytize sinners, heretics and schismatics" (what means us).
(emphasis added)

Yes, all of us.  Smiley
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