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Jetavan
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« on: February 23, 2012, 08:31:53 AM » |
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ST. LOUIS (RNS) An Illinois bishop has confirmed that a Roman Catholic priest was fired because he "simply would not and could not pray the prayers of the Mass" under a new translation that went into effect last year.
In a rare letter of explanation about an internal personnel dispute, Bishop Edward Braxton of Belleville, Ill., publicly responded to the firing of the Rev. William Rowe, who has been pastor of St. Mary's Catholic Church in Carmel, Ill., for 18 years.
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Braxton said in the Feb. 14 letter that "several" parishioners of St. Mary's had brought audio and video evidence to the bishop "which showed the many changes and omissions Fr. Rowe makes in the Mass."
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"He mentioned in the letter that we clash in our ecclesiology -- our image of the church," said Rowe, 72. "He's right. He seems to consider the church as the bishops', and my notion is that the church starts with the people." |
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
I'm not a witch.
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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Alpo
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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2012, 09:53:35 AM » |
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"He mentioned in the letter that we clash in our ecclesiology -- our image of the church," said Rowe, 72. "He's right. He seems to consider the church as the bishops', and my notion is that the church starts with the people." So basically a RC bishop fired a Protestant pastor and the people lose their temper over it. Nice. |
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« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 09:54:14 AM by Alpo »
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biro
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2012, 10:15:46 AM » |
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If the excuse were that he wasn't familiar with the rubrics and needed more practice, that might be one thing. However, he is saying he didn't like the new translation, which is different. He would never be happy with it, no matter how much time he had. Too bad he couldn't have approached the bishop earlier, such as a few years ago, when they started working on the translation. I don't know that it would have changed anything, but he wouldn't have to wait until the last minute. It's too late now. A priest has to work for his bishop and his parish. This man may be more at home in the Episcopal Church or somewhere like that.
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phthalyl.podomatic.com
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Peter J
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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2012, 10:28:21 AM » |
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This man may be more at home in the Episcopal Church or somewhere like that.
He's been fired, not excommunicated. |
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"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2012, 10:58:55 AM » |
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If only the Bishops had acted as swiftly when other transgressions were brought to their attention over the years people may have had more respect for their authority in matters such as this.
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Schultz
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« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2012, 11:01:11 AM » |
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If only the Bishops had acted as swiftly when other transgressions were brought to their attention over the years people may have had more respect for their authority in matters such as this.
QFT |
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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
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Punch
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« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2012, 11:10:15 AM » |
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If only the Bishops had acted as swiftly when other transgressions were brought to their attention over the years people may have had more respect for their authority in matters such as this.
Yes, it kind of shows where the priorities are, doesn't it. |
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J Michael
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« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2012, 11:46:19 AM » |
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"He mentioned in the letter that we clash in our ecclesiology -- our image of the church," said Rowe, 72. "He's right. He seems to consider the church as the bishops', and my notion is that the church starts with the people." So basically a RC bishop fired a Protestant pastor and the people lose their temper over it. Nice. I seem to recall the case of a certain (Protestant) Antiochian Orthodox priest who was fired *and* excommunicated and "the people [Orthodox] lost their temper over it", the whole thing causing a huge firestorm within the parish and on the internet and who knows where else. "Nice". In any event, it was an *excellent* move in both cases that the bishops (finally!) dismissed these guys. |
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"Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
— St. Augustine of Hippo
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Alpo
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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2012, 11:50:24 AM » |
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"He mentioned in the letter that we clash in our ecclesiology -- our image of the church," said Rowe, 72. "He's right. He seems to consider the church as the bishops', and my notion is that the church starts with the people." So basically a RC bishop fired a Protestant pastor and the people lose their temper over it. Nice. I seem to recall the case of a certain (Protestant) Antiochian Orthodox priest who was fired *and* excommunicated and "the people [Orthodox] lost their temper over it", the whole thing causing a huge firestorm within the parish and on the internet and who knows where else. "Nice". Huh? FYI, I wasn't criticizing the RCC. |
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« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 11:50:45 AM by Alpo »
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2012, 11:56:30 AM » |
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"He mentioned in the letter that we clash in our ecclesiology -- our image of the church," said Rowe, 72. "He's right. He seems to consider the church as the bishops', and my notion is that the church starts with the people." So basically a RC bishop fired a Protestant pastor and the people lose their temper over it. Nice. I seem to recall the case of a certain (Protestant) Antiochian Orthodox priest who was fired *and* excommunicated and "the people [Orthodox] lost their temper over it", the whole thing causing a huge firestorm within the parish and on the internet and who knows where else. "Nice". Huh? FYI, I wasn't criticizing the RCC. I think he's referring to Ben Lomond 1998. |
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J Michael
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« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2012, 12:00:59 PM » |
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"He mentioned in the letter that we clash in our ecclesiology -- our image of the church," said Rowe, 72. "He's right. He seems to consider the church as the bishops', and my notion is that the church starts with the people." So basically a RC bishop fired a Protestant pastor and the people lose their temper over it. Nice. I seem to recall the case of a certain (Protestant) Antiochian Orthodox priest who was fired *and* excommunicated and "the people [Orthodox] lost their temper over it", the whole thing causing a huge firestorm within the parish and on the internet and who knows where else. "Nice". Huh? FYI, I wasn't criticizing the RCC. I didn't take it that way. Okay, well...maybe a tiny bit . My point, which I think now I didn't put very well, was that there are rotten apples in both the OC and RCC barrels, and people being people, don't like disruption of the familiar, even if what is "familiar" is wrong. And it really shouldn't surprise us when they get upset. Guess I should have said it that way instead of how I did. |
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"Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
— St. Augustine of Hippo
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J Michael
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« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2012, 12:01:52 PM » |
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"He mentioned in the letter that we clash in our ecclesiology -- our image of the church," said Rowe, 72. "He's right. He seems to consider the church as the bishops', and my notion is that the church starts with the people." So basically a RC bishop fired a Protestant pastor and the people lose their temper over it. Nice. I seem to recall the case of a certain (Protestant) Antiochian Orthodox priest who was fired *and* excommunicated and "the people [Orthodox] lost their temper over it", the whole thing causing a huge firestorm within the parish and on the internet and who knows where else. "Nice". Huh? FYI, I wasn't criticizing the RCC. I think he's referring to Ben Lomond 1998. No--Yelovich, 2010-2011. |
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"Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
— St. Augustine of Hippo
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Peter J
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« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2012, 12:20:58 PM » |
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My point, which I think now I didn't put very well, was that there are rotten apples in both the OC and RCC barrels, When my family went to pick apples, we always called the bad ones "protestant apples". I didn't hear the saying "There's a bad apple in every bunch" until I went away to college. |
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"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
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J Michael
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« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2012, 12:32:08 PM » |
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My point, which I think now I didn't put very well, was that there are rotten apples in both the OC and RCC barrels, When my family went to pick apples, we always called the bad ones "protestant apples". I didn't hear the saying "There's a bad apple in every bunch" until I went away to college.  |
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"Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
— St. Augustine of Hippo
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Jetavan
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« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2012, 12:52:06 PM » |
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My point, which I think now I didn't put very well, was that there are rotten apples in both the OC and RCC barrels, When my family went to pick apples, we always called the bad ones "protestant apples". I didn't hear the saying "There's a bad apple in every bunch" until I went away to college. Protestant Apples...a Diet of Worms. |
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
I'm not a witch.
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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Peter J
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« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2012, 12:58:45 PM » |
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^^ Man, I can't believe I didn't think of that first. Joking aside, I think this is a well-detailed article: Illinois bishop accepts priest's resignation over way he says Mass. |
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"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
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Punch
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« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2012, 12:59:41 PM » |
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My point, which I think now I didn't put very well, was that there are rotten apples in both the OC and RCC barrels, When my family went to pick apples, we always called the bad ones "protestant apples". I didn't hear the saying "There's a bad apple in every bunch" until I went away to college. Protestant Apples...a Diet of Worms. LOL |
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Peter J
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« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2012, 01:41:06 PM » |
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The saddest part of all this, possibly, is that it will make a nice handle for those who opposed the 2007 motu proprio establishing the TLM as the "Extraordinary Form". Some of you may remember Ted Rosean's article from a couple years ago, Two rites make a wrong: We are one church and we need just one Mass, this Catholic argues-even if that one Mass is celebrated in any number of languages. |
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"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
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biro
Ursus maritimus
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2012, 01:48:39 PM » |
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This man may be more at home in the Episcopal Church or somewhere like that.
He's been fired, not excommunicated. Okay, I misunderstood. Thanks. |
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phthalyl.podomatic.com
the-cornet.blogspot.com
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Alpo
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« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2012, 01:54:34 PM » |
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My point, which I think now I didn't put very well, was that there are rotten apples in both the OC and RCC barrels, and people being people, don't like disruption of the familiar, even if what is "familiar" is wrong. And it really shouldn't surprise us when they get upset.
However, I wasn't actually suprised but rather bewildered by the people's logic. Being a rationally-oriented person I have hard time understanding the outrage about the issue since the bishop was just doing his job. But then again you are probably correct in that generally people don't like disruption of the familiar. |
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« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 01:55:00 PM by Alpo »
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Peter J
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« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2012, 01:58:43 PM » |
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This man may be more at home in the Episcopal Church or somewhere like that.
He's been fired, not excommunicated. Okay, I misunderstood. Thanks.  |
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"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
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username!
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« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2012, 02:18:02 PM » |
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If only the Bishops had acted as swiftly when other transgressions were brought to their attention over the years people may have had more respect for their authority in matters such as this.
If I had a praise banner I'd be waving it! |
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2012, 03:01:51 PM » |
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Were there an Orthodox priest who took liturgics into his own, improvisational style, he would meet the same fate as did Fr. Rowe. It certainly wouldn't have taken five years to resolve either.
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J Michael
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« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2012, 03:09:05 PM » |
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Were there an Orthodox priest who took liturgics into his own, improvisational style, he would meet the same fate as did Fr. Rowe. It certainly wouldn't have taken five years to resolve either.
Better sooner than later. Better late than never. Would that it *never* had to happen at all . |
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"Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
— St. Augustine of Hippo
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Maria
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O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
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« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2012, 03:41:15 PM » |
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My point, which I think now I didn't put very well, was that there are rotten apples in both the OC and RCC barrels, When my family went to pick apples, we always called the bad ones "protestant apples". I didn't hear the saying "There's a bad apple in every bunch" until I went away to college. Protestant Apples...a Diet of Worms. Good one. Protestants after all protested. Their very name indicates that fact. |
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« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 03:45:24 PM by Maria »
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Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
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Peter J
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« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2012, 04:17:30 PM » |
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Protestants after all protested.
Their very name indicates that fact.
That's certainly true, but nowadays it's pretty rare for "Protestant" to be used in reference to those who protested the Diet of Speyer in 1529. There's another usage of "Protestant", which is basically synonymous with "bad". |
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"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
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orthonorm
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« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2012, 06:15:55 PM » |
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Protestants after all protested.
Their very name indicates that fact.
That's certainly true, but nowadays it's pretty rare for "Protestant" to be used in reference to those who protested the Diet of Speyer in 1529. There's another usage of "Protestant", which is basically synonymous with "bad". You'll be glad to know that in my politically world, I make sure whenever there is any contest. One side are the contestants and the other the protestants. Works for protests. Depending on the stance we make sure to to properly label ourselves protesters or contesters. |
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« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 06:16:23 PM by orthonorm »
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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LBK
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« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2012, 06:25:08 PM » |
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Were there an Orthodox priest who took liturgics into his own, improvisational style, he would meet the same fate as did Fr. Rowe. It certainly wouldn't have taken five years to resolve either.
Precisely. It'd be a race as to who would get to him first - his bishop, or the babushki/yiayies.  |
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J Michael
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« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2012, 06:25:38 PM » |
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Protestants after all protested.
Their very name indicates that fact.
That's certainly true, but nowadays it's pretty rare for "Protestant" to be used in reference to those who protested the Diet of Speyer in 1529. There's another usage of "Protestant", which is basically synonymous with "bad". You'll be glad to know that in my politically world, I make sure whenever there is any contest. One side are the contestants and the other the protestants. Works for protests. Depending on the stance we make sure to to properly label ourselves protesters or contesters.  |
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"Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
— St. Augustine of Hippo
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2012, 06:36:19 PM » |
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Were there an Orthodox priest who took liturgics into his own, improvisational style, he would meet the same fate as did Fr. Rowe. It certainly wouldn't have taken five years to resolve either.
Precisely. It'd be a race as to who would get to him first - his bishop, or the babushki/yiayies. I would bet on the Trustees,led by the Church President....they are usually younger and quicker than the older women! Of course they often mistake correct practice for innovation so...... |
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2012, 06:38:14 PM » |
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This just in: Roman Catholics $*#@ed off because their bishops are doing their job properly.
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2012, 06:42:23 PM » |
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This just in: Roman Catholics $*#@ed off because their bishops are doing their job properly.
Get over to the Herman thread and start making me laugh, lawyer. |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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Peter J
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« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2012, 06:58:32 PM » |
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This just in: Roman Catholics $*#@ed off because their bishops are doing their job properly.
Non-Orthodox bishops doing their job properly? How shocking! |
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"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2012, 07:00:47 PM » |
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This just in: Roman Catholics $*#@ed off because their bishops are doing their job properly.
Non-Orthodox bishops doing their job properly? How shocking! My post was not a criticism of the Roman Catholic hierarchy. |
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2012, 07:01:40 PM » |
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This just in: Roman Catholics $*#@ed off because their bishops are doing their job properly.
Get over to the Herman thread and start making me laugh, lawyer. Alas, I can't see images from my work computer. |
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2012, 07:14:19 PM » |
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This just in: Roman Catholics $*#@ed off because their bishops are doing their job properly.
Get over to the Herman thread and start making me laugh, lawyer. Alas, I can't see images from my work computer. Srsly? That sucks. |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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Peter J
Formerly PJ
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« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2012, 08:02:23 PM » |
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This just in: Roman Catholics $*#@ed off because their bishops are doing their job properly.
Non-Orthodox bishops doing their job properly? How shocking! My post was not a criticism of the Roman Catholic hierarchy. Don't worry, I didn't think it was. I was assuming it was tongue-in-cheek. |
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"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
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Paisius
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Reframed
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« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2012, 10:51:43 PM » |
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My point, which I think now I didn't put very well, was that there are rotten apples in both the OC and RCC barrels, When my family went to pick apples, we always called the bad ones "protestant apples". I didn't hear the saying "There's a bad apple in every bunch" until I went away to college. Protestant Apples...a Diet of Worms. I'll never forget the first time I saw that phrase in my high school history book. I thought "man, I wonder why they made him eat worms." |
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"Is it really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest?" - Milton Friedman
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scamandrius
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« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2012, 10:59:27 PM » |
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Were there an Orthodox priest who took liturgics into his own, improvisational style, he would meet the same fate as did Fr. Rowe. It certainly wouldn't have taken five years to resolve either.
I know of one Orthodox priest who frequently "messes" with the prayers and responses to meet his own "daily" interests whenever he serves in our community. It's annoying, ruins the smooth flow of the office and/or Liturgy and serves no purpose. No one calls him out on it (I want to, but I won't) and he just keeps doing it as he wants. Maybe if there was some formal reprimand, it would stop. |
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I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius Those who do not read history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene http://myorthodoxjourney.blogspot.com/ |
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LBK
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« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2012, 11:15:51 PM » |
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No one calls him out on it (I want to, but I won't) and he just keeps doing it as he wants. Maybe if there was some formal reprimand, it would stop. A formal reprimand can never be issued if nobody speaks up. Most bishops don't have telepathic powers, you know. |
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Peter J
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« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2012, 11:29:02 PM » |
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I know of one Orthodox priest who frequently "messes" with the prayers and responses to meet his own "daily" interests whenever he serves in our community. I can give you a famous Anglican example ... In order to spare the laity all "difficulties" he has deserted both the lectionary and the appointed psalms and now, without noticing it, revolves endlessly round the little treadmill of his fifteen favourite psalms and twenty favourite lessons. We are thus safe from the danger that any truth not already familiar to him and to his flock should over reach them through Scripture. (The vicar just described is fictional, but I think he was based on one or more real-life examples.) |
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"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
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FormerReformer
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« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2012, 12:37:09 AM » |
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I know of one Orthodox priest who frequently "messes" with the prayers and responses to meet his own "daily" interests whenever he serves in our community. I can give you a famous Anglican example ... In order to spare the laity all "difficulties" he has deserted both the lectionary and the appointed psalms and now, without noticing it, revolves endlessly round the little treadmill of his fifteen favourite psalms and twenty favourite lessons. We are thus safe from the danger that any truth not already familiar to him and to his flock should over reach them through Scripture. (The vicar just described is fictional, but I think he was based on one or more real-life examples.) A little off topic, but I've always wondered who the Episcopal Ghost in The Great Divorce was based on- Pike having died after Lewis, Spong still very much alive today, and both American. |
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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
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Peter J
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« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2012, 10:58:40 PM » |
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I know of one Orthodox priest who frequently "messes" with the prayers and responses to meet his own "daily" interests whenever he serves in our community. I can give you a famous Anglican example ... In order to spare the laity all "difficulties" he has deserted both the lectionary and the appointed psalms and now, without noticing it, revolves endlessly round the little treadmill of his fifteen favourite psalms and twenty favourite lessons. We are thus safe from the danger that any truth not already familiar to him and to his flock should over reach them through Scripture. (The vicar just described is fictional, but I think he was based on one or more real-life examples.) A little off topic, but I've always wondered who the Episcopal Ghost in The Great Divorce was based on That I couldn't say. - Pike having died after Lewis, Spong still very much alive today, and both American.
I don't know who Pike was. As for Spong, would Lewis have even heard of him? I don't doubt he was alive back then, but was he well known? |
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"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
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