OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 28, 2014, 02:50:18 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Mary thing.  (Read 5768 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Nuckle
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: none
Posts: 12


« on: February 26, 2012, 01:44:40 AM »

This is one thing that bothers me as a Protestant, the Mary thing. I was long taught by other Protestants that Catholics worship Mary and I understand the Orthodox idea of Mary is not the same but still closer to Catholics than Protestants. I know Catholics do not really worship Mary (technically) but as a Protestant it still makes me feel a tad queasy. I don't think anybody would deny that even if the Roman Catholic Church does not articulate a theological position of Mary worship it is certainly true that many individual Catholics in the past have either danced this line or gone close to it. Louis de Montfort certainly danced about as close to the line as he could come and the previous Pope considered himself a follower of his!

There are five questions that I hope people can answer all or some of them.

1. What is the Orthodox perspective on Mary?

2. How does it differ from Catholicism?

3. Do Orthodox acknowledge that many Catholics including Louis de Montfort who is a canonized Roman Catholic saint danced the line of Mary worship or crossed it altogether?

4. Is this danger prevalent in Orthodoxy?

5. Give me some resources which show me Marian theology has its roots in the Paristics?
Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,768


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2012, 01:54:54 AM »

RE Question 4: The danger of offering adoration or divine service to something or someone other than God is, and will be, present no matter what until the end of this age.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 01:55:36 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,028


« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2012, 02:40:51 AM »

Regarding #3, I don't know any Orthodox who care or even know about Louis de Montfort or anything he wrote (I only know about him because I'm ex-RC; I didn't like him back then, either). I don't mean this in a snide way, it just doesn't really make sense that any Orthodox would have opinions about a specific non-Orthodox thinker, especially one who lived so long after the divide between East and West. It would be like asking a Protestant for their perspective on Tamav Irini or Savvas the New. If they knew, it would be an oddity, and if they had an opinion it wouldn't matter.

For an exposition of St. Mary in the Orthodox concept according to the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria (non-Chalcedonian), please see Fr. Tadrous Malaty's book of the same name, available for free via Orthodox E-Books. I think the quoted portion from St. Ephrem the Syrian (d. 373) at the beginning of the book testifies as to the antiquity of the veneration of the Virgin Mary, and the great saint is not the first to have written on it.

Awake, O my harp, your chords
in praise of the Virgin Mary!
Lift up your voice and sing
the wonderful history of this Virgin,
the daughter of David,
who gave birth to the Life of the world!

Logged

JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2012, 03:02:51 AM »

1. What is the Orthodox perspective on Mary?
The Orthodox position is that the Theotokos is an extremely holy woman, with many (most? nearly all?) Orthodox holding to the belief that she was, indeed, without sin.  She lived a holy life in complete obedience to, and service of, God.  It is for this that she was chosen by the Father to bear His Son.  She remained perpetually a virgin. 

2. How does it differ from Catholicism?
I do not care what the Catholics believe; I am Orthodox.

3. Do Orthodox acknowledge that many Catholics including Louis de Montfort who is a canonized Roman Catholic saint danced the line of Mary worship or crossed it altogether?
Orthodox do not care what the Catholics believe.  The Catholics are not Orthodox, hence the two different names.  You might as well be asking "Do the Orthodox acknowledge that the Catholics believe in purgatory?"  It is irrelevant to a discussion of the Orthodox view of the Mother of God.  I recommend asking the Catholics about Montfort.

4. Is this danger prevalent in Orthodoxy?
The danger, as Nicholas said, in worshiping as God that which is not God can - and does - exist in all times, climes, and faiths.  There are some Protestants, for instance, (and I have personally known some) who - if they do not actually do so, come very close to - place the Bible on par with, if not above, God.  That, too, is idolatry, yet we don't relegate the Bible to the trash-heap just because some people go overboard.  It is the same reason we don't disregard icons, even though some treat them as Christ Himself, and it is the same reason we don't hide our Crosses, even though some treat them like magical amulets.

5. Give me some resources which show me Marian theology has its roots in the Patristics?
Others who have incredible memories for precisely where, and in what works, each and every saint has ever spoken about anything at all - and where you can find it on the internet - will doubtlessly chime in before long (there are a great deal on this forum).
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Nuckle
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: none
Posts: 12


« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2012, 03:19:45 AM »

So if Mary is without sin how do you reconcile this with the biblical admonition that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? Does this imply Mary is excepted from all and if so how?
Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,086


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2012, 04:08:48 AM »

Here is an excerpt from my book that may be helpful:

WHO IS MARY?
   
Some Christians diminish her importance, and others idolatrously worship her. But who is Mary? And why do those of us in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church properly venerate her?
   
In Orthodoxy, our devotion to the Virgin Mary is derived directly from what the Bible says about her. The Scriptures declare her to be the Mother of Our Lord (St. Luke 1:43), and thus we honor her as the “Theotokos”- The Mother of God. In affirming Mary as the “Theotokos,” we are in no way declaring her to be greater than God. What we are professing is the glorious Mystery of the Incarnation: God became a man and was born of the Virgin- the Virgin who was divinely chosen for her purity, faith, humility, and obedience.
   
Mary was the ladder reaching from earth to Heaven upon whom God descended in order to walk amongst humanity and redeem us from sin and death. Our Lady the Virgin Mary was the first person to receive Jesus Christ by faith, thus she is the supreme example of how we too should receive Christ into our lives. The Incarnation is the central doctrine of Christianity. If we dishonor or diminish the role of Mary in bringing forth the Savior of the world, then we dishonor and diminish the Savior Himself.
   
Was Mary sinless? Did she remain a virgin all of her life? These questions are frequently disputed and debated by those outside of the Orthodox Faith. But they are questions best answered by simply proclaiming and affirming her titles and virtues as revealed in the Holy Bible and in the sacred Apostolic Teachings and Traditions of the Church.
   
Following are some of the titles and virtues that the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church ascribes to Our Lady the Holy Virgin Mary. They come from one of our ecclesiastical prayer books called THE WUDASSE MARYAM: Hymns of Praise to the Holy Virgin Mary.
   
My prayer is that by meditating on her virtues and proclaiming her titles, you will cultivate a deep and mystical relationship with Our Lady the Holy Virgin St. Mary. For she is the greater than all the Saints, more exalted than the angels, and holier than any person who has ever lived other than He to whom she alone was worthy to give birth.
   
Let us ask her to intercede on our behalf. Let us look to her as our shining example of Christian faith. Let us learn from her purity, her humility, and her obedience. And most of all, may she guide us to a deeper, richer, and fuller knowledge of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.   

   "Thou was called the 'Holy of Holies'"

   "Ever-pure Bearer of God"

   "Thou art 'The Sanctuary'"

   "Thou art the 'Urn of God' or the 'Holy Golden Pot'"

   "Thou art ‘The Golden Candlestick'"

   "Thou art ‘The Censer of Gold'"

   "Thou art ‘The Garden of Delight'"

   "Beautiful Dove"

   "Thou art ‘like the rod of Aaron’"

   "Thou art greater than the high priest and thou art more honorable than the prophets."

   "In thee there is majesty of appearance which is greater than the majesty of the Seraphim and Cherubim."

   "Thou art the 'Glory of Our Race.'"

   "Thou art 'She Who Must Beg for Life for Our Souls.'"

   "The Perfect (or absolute) Virgin."

   "Thou art 'The Ladder Reaching from Heaven to Earth' on which the angels of God do ascend and descend, which Jacob saw."

   "Thou art 'The Burning Bush'"

   "Thou art that 'Field Wherein no Seed was Sown,' and yet from thee came forth the Fruit of Life."

   "Thou art the 'Treasure House' which Joseph bought and found therein a pearl, a precious gem, that is Eyesus Kristos our Redeemer."

   "The Joy to the Angels"

   "Thou art worthy to be called the 'God-Bearer.'"

   "The Mother of All Living Beings"

   "The Spiritual Mountain"

   "The greatness of the Virgin whom God has chosen is beyond anyone to describe."

   "Thou art symbolized in the pure twig and true vessel representing the Right Faith of the saints, our Fathers."

   "The 'Mother of the Resplendent Light.'"

   "Pure Virgin, Mother of the Light"

   "The Throne of the King Whom the Cherubim Carry"

   "Second Heaven upon the Earth"

   "The Gate that Lets in the Rising Sun"

   "The Pure Bride Chamber of the Holy Bridegroom"

   "Country of God"

   "The Abode of All Who Rejoice"

   "Thou art the 'True Cloud' and hast shown us the water from the rain."

   "The Spotless Virgin"

   "O Pure Maryam in whom there is no blemish"

   "O undefiled Vessel that is perfect and spotless"

   "O Garden that is endowed with reason"

   "Thou art 'The Beauty of Praise.'"

   "O Thorn-bush, who was not consumed by the fire of the Godhead"

   "O Maid and Virgin Mother, heaven and the heavenly, who carried in thine own body Him Who is born aloft on the Cherubim."

   "The Glory of Maryam is greater than all of the saints."

   "She was worthy to receive the Word of the Father."

   "Greater is she than the Cherubim and superior to the Seraphim, for she became the Ark (or Tabernacle) of One of the Holy Trinity."

   "She is Jerusalem, the land of the prophets and the joyful habitation of all the saints."

   "Ezekiel the Prophet testified concerning her and said, 'I see a sealed door in the east, sealed with a great and wonderful seal, and no one save the God of Powers has entered through it. He has gone in through it and come out.' (Ezekiel 43:4-5; 44:13)"

   "The Virgin is the Door who brought the Redeemer to us, and after bringing Him forth, she remained a virgin."

   "Thou art complete and Blessed, for thou found grace from the King of Glory Who is God in Truth."

   "Praise and glory belong to thee all the more from all who dwell upon the earth."
   
   "The Bush which Moses saw burning in the desert with its wood remaining unconsumed signifies Maryam, the Spotless Virgin."

   "On account of Eve was the door of the Garden shut up, and through Maryam the Virgin it is opened to us again and we are permitted to eat of the Tree of Life in the Holy Body and Precious Blood of Christ."

   "After she brought Him forth, her virginity was not lost, and it became manifest that she was the Bearer of God."

   "From woman was given the Lord, the word of the Father, Who is called Emmanuel. On account of this we beseech her at all times to intercede on our behalf to her Beloved son for the forgiveness of our sins."

   "She was beneficent towards all the saints and patriarchs in that she brought to them Him for Whom they awaited; and she brought to the prophets Him Whose coming they prophesied; and to the apostles she brought Him in Whose name they were to preach to all the ends of the world. From her came forth Him for Whom the martyrs and the faithful were to undergo struggle, that is Eyesus Kristos (Jesus Christ)."

   "Thou alone, O Lady who brought forth God, art the 'Mother of Light.'"

   "Blessed art thou, 'Greater than the Heavens and Higher than the earth.'"

   "Thou transcends the conception of every mind, O Maryam the Virgin. Who is able to describe thy greatness, for there is none with whom thou may be compared. The angels magnify thee and the Seraphim praise thee."

   "Greater art thou than all women who have received grace and honor."

   "O Maryam, the Bearer of God, 'The Spiritual City wherein God the Most High took up His abode.'"

   "Maryam the Virgin is 'The Vessel of Priceless Ointment,' 'The Fountainhead (or spring) of the Water of Life. The fruit of her womb has saved the whole world."

   "The Trusted Advocate of the Human Race"

   "Honored art thou by all, thou who hast become 'The Dwelling Place of the Word of the Father.'"

   "Thou art the tent which is pitched, which gathers together the Christian people and teaches them to worship the Life-giving Trinity."

   "Thou hast born the Pillar of Fire which Moses saw, even the Son of God Who came and dwelt in thy womb."

   "Thou became the Ark for Him Who created heaven and earth, which the earth cannot contain."

   "Thou art 'The Ladder which Leads to Heaven.'"

   "Thou art brighter than the sun."

   "Thou art the Eastern Horizon where rises the brilliant star Whose appearance the saints awaited with joy and gladness."

   "Pure and Bright art thou in everything, O Holy One, worthy of all praise. Thou who hast held the Lord in thine arms."

   "Rejoice, thou who art full of grace. We marvel at thy greatness, O devoted Virgin, and we ascribe joy to thee with the Angel Gabriel; for the Fruit of thy womb is the source of salvation for our race, and has brought us nigh unto God His Father."

   "Thou art 'The Young Shoot from the Root of David.'"

   "Thou became 'The Second Heaven on Earth' thou 'Spotless God-Bearer.'"

   "Thou art 'The Tent of the Holy of Holies' wherein the Ark which was covered all over with plates of gold and had therein the Tablets of the Covenant and the golden urn with the manna signifying the Son of God."

   "Rejoice thou 'Garden Paradise' which provides for the Lamb that speaks, even the Son of the Father who abides forever."

   "Thou art called 'The Mother of Kristos the King.'"

   "Thou art 'The Ladder' on which Jacob saw the Son of God; for thou carried in thy womb Him Who could not be touched."

   "Thou hast become 'Our Intercessor to Our Lord Eyesus Kristos,' Who was incarnate of thee for our salvation."

   "O Blessed and Undefiled Bride Chamber."

   "The Unblemished Virgin"

   "The Undefiled Vessel"

   "The Glory of All the World"

   "The Light which Shall Never be Put Out"

   "The Shrine which Shall Never be Abandoned"

   "Staff of the Faith"

   "The Never Failing Support of the Saints"

“Mary the virgin is found obedient, saying, ‘Behold the handmaiden of the Lord; be it unto me according to your word.’ In contrast, Eve was disobedient. For she did not obey when she was still a virgin. Having become disobedient, she was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race. Correspondingly, Mary, who was also a virgin (although betrothed to a man), by yielding obedience, became the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. This demonstrates the corresponding reference from Mary back to Eve. So it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.” -St. Irenaeus-

“It was while Eve was yet a virgin that the ensnaring word had crept into her ear. And this word was to build the edifice of death. In like manner, the Word of God must be introduced into a virgin’s soul – that Word who was to raise the fabric of life, so that what had been reduced to ruin by this sex, might by the self-same sex be recovered to salvation. As Eve had believed the serpent, so Mary believed the angel.” -Tertullian-


O Our Lady, the Virgin Saint Maryam,
in St. Gabriel’s greetings:
 "Peace be unto you."
Holy and pure, O Mother of the Almighty God:
"Peace be unto you."
Blessed art thou among women,
 and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb.
Hail Mary, full of grace,
pray for us before Our Lord Jesus Christ
that He may forgive us for our sins.


         In the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, One God, -Amen-


Selam, +GMK+
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Nuckle
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer
Jurisdiction: none
Posts: 12


« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2012, 04:15:13 AM »

Still, is Mary exempted from ever having sinned? If Paul says all have sinned how can all not apply to her?
Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,086


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2012, 06:24:54 AM »

Still, is Mary exempted from ever having sinned? If Paul says all have sinned how can all not apply to her?

"All" does not include Christ. So we have to be careful about interpreting single verses of Scripture in an overly literal manner and outside of the context of the entire Scriptures and the Teachings and Traditions of the Church. St.Mary calls God "my Savior" (St. Luke 1:47), but this does not necessarily mean that she was a sinner. The Virgin Mary was still subject to death and the environment of sin that exists in a fallen world. So, in this sense, like all of us, The Virgin Mary needed salvation from death and sin. But there is no reason to assume that the Virgin Mary ever committed any actual sin herself. As my post above emphasizes, it is best to simply focus on and meditate upon what the Church says about Our Lady the Virgin St. Mary, and not become too obsessed with whether or not she actually sinned.


Selam
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 06:26:08 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2012, 08:45:30 AM »

So if Mary is without sin how do you reconcile this with the biblical admonition that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? Does this imply Mary is excepted from all and if so how?

Do you think that every single statement in the Bible is meant to be 100% without exception?
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
WeldeMikael
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 506


« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2012, 09:18:07 AM »

She is the Theotokos.  Wink

Enough said, no ?
Logged
Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2012, 10:04:46 AM »

Still, is Mary exempted from ever having sinned? If Paul says all have sinned how can all not apply to her?

no
Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
Clemente
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Europe
Posts: 224


« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2012, 11:51:41 AM »

This is one thing that bothers me as a Protestant, the Mary thing. I was long taught by other Protestants that Catholics worship Mary and I understand the Orthodox idea of Mary is not the same but still closer to Catholics than Protestants. I know Catholics do not really worship Mary (technically) but as a Protestant it still makes me feel a tad queasy. I don't think anybody would deny that even if the Roman Catholic Church does not articulate a theological position of Mary worship it is certainly true that many individual Catholics in the past have either danced this line or gone close to it. Louis de Montfort certainly danced about as close to the line as he could come and the previous Pope considered himself a follower of his!

There are five questions that I hope people can answer all or some of them.

1. What is the Orthodox perspective on Mary?

2. How does it differ from Catholicism?

3. Do Orthodox acknowledge that many Catholics including Louis de Montfort who is a canonized Roman Catholic saint danced the line of Mary worship or crossed it altogether?

4. Is this danger prevalent in Orthodoxy?

5. Give me some resources which show me Marian theology has its roots in the Paristics?
I know where you are coming from here. The three biggest issues for most Protestants as they consider Orthodoxy are Mary, Mary, and Mary. The difficulty regarding Mary for Protestants is that much of the evidence for various Marian doctrines is found in Tradition but outside of Scripture. If you follow Sola Scriptura, there is much of historic Christianity that is important-eg fasting-that your epistemology will not pick up.

The good news: there are only two Marian "dogmas" that you would need to accept as an Orthodox, namely the title "Theotokos" and the perpetual virginity of Mary. Unlike the Roman Catholics, Orthodoxy has not dogmatised the Immaculate Conception, the Ascension, or the Sinlessness of Mary.

The title Theotokos is an important Christological distinction and many Evangelicals have affirmed this. So that leaves the perpetual virginity, which does enjoy patristic support. For example, Athanasius, who saved us from Arianism, wrote "Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that He took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary" (Discourses against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

Jerome, who translated the Bible, wrote "But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature". (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).

Augustine also addressed the subject "In being born of a virgin who chose to remain a virgin even before she knew who was to be born other, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

The Reformers also accepted the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos

Regarding the sinlessness of Mary, note that this is not dogma and that several prominent Orthodox saints have not accepted that Mary was always sinless, though this may be the default view of many Orthodox. For example, several of the Early Church Fathers (e.g., Origen, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria, and Basil) held that Mary, although outstandingly holy in character, had nonetheless been guilty of some sins. St. John Chrysostom, whose liturgy we celebrate most Sundays, mentions the Wedding at Cana where she presumed to instruct Him. A modern saint, St John Maximovitch, rejected the absolute sinlessness of the Theotokos and was nevertheless canonized. St John Maximovitch pointed out to the fact that a very important prayer in the Divine Liturgy calls Jesus Christ "the only sinless one."

The bad news for Protestants is that many Orthodox liturgical texts and prayers include references to Mary such as "save us" that can be difficult and confusing. I would suggest that any inquirer into Orthodoxy consider if you can accept that which is truly dogma--the title "Theotokos" and the perpetual virginity And then, I would just put this on hold for a while and come experience Orthodoxy. Taste and see that the Lord is good. Then, speak to a priest about any further concerns you may have.





Logged
Clemente
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Europe
Posts: 224


« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2012, 11:53:11 AM »

She is the Theotokos.  Wink

Enough said, no ?
Um, no.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,531


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2012, 11:56:10 AM »

So if Mary is without sin how do you reconcile this with the biblical admonition that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God?
I never thought this passage of Scripture was intended to establish a mathematical "all" defined as every individual member of a set. Besides, the verse was written so that we may apply it each to him/herself, not to some other person.
Logged
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2012, 12:46:47 PM »

So if Mary is without sin how do you reconcile this with the biblical admonition that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God?
I never thought this passage of Scripture was intended to establish a mathematical "all" defined as every individual member of a set. Besides, the verse was written so that we may apply it each to him/herself, not to some other person.

In support of what Peter says here, there are many verses where "all" does not literally mean every individual ever.  For instance, 2 Corinthians 3:2 - "You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men."  Yet not every man had or has read the epistle.  Is. 24:7 - "The new wine fails, the vine languishes, All the merry-hearted sigh."  There are many other examples

Also, another way to think about this is with regards to the difference between intentional and unintentional sin.  I tend to think about it this way, to be honest.  I think it would be perfectly reasonable, in light of various Scripture passages I've read, to believe Mary may have unintentionally sinned at some point(s) from the time she was an infant to when she fell asleep but just never intentionally sinned.  Who am I to say?

This isn't something I think much about to be honest.  The traditions that honor highly her are early and seem to be Apostolic.  Among women, she is most blessed.  She was chosen to bear the Christ child and raise him in motherly-kindness.  It is healthy and good to honor her.  The Scriptures do, the early, holy, Apostolic church Fathers do, and Christ honored her very highly when he started his public ministry at her request.
Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2012, 01:31:21 PM »

Here is a short book available online that will give you an Orthodox perspective and response to some questions you may have on Mary.

The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God by St. John Maximovitch
http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/library/st_john_maximovich/on_veneration_of_the_theotokos.htm

Also available on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Veneration-Mary-Birthgiver-God/dp/0938635689
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,266



« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2012, 02:34:54 PM »

2. How does it differ from Catholicism?

Well, it doesn't differ too much. I think they have some dogmas in the Catholic Church that some Orthodox see as problematic such as the dogma of her being Co-Redemptrix. My knowledge of that particular dogma isn't very clear so I really couldn't tell you too much. However, I feel that the devotion assigned to St. Mary in the Orthodox Church and Catholic Church isn't very different at all. We Orthodox Christians have a very strong devotion to the Mother of God. Read any Akathist service or canon to her and you will see this very clearly. Orthodox wouldn't have any problem with the rosary for example. Some do, but it really centers around using the imagination during the rosary that Orthodox Christians find problems rather than the prayers themselves.

Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,707


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2012, 02:40:32 PM »

Quote from: Nuckle
I was long taught by other Protestants that Catholics worship Mary and I understand the Orthodox idea of Mary is not the same but still closer to Catholics than Protestants. I know Catholics do not really worship Mary (technically) but as a Protestant it still makes me feel a tad queasy. I don't think anybody would deny that even if the Roman Catholic Church does not articulate a theological position of Mary worship it is certainly true that many individual Catholics in the past have either danced this line or gone close to it. Louis de Montfort certainly danced about as close to the line as he could come and the previous Pope considered himself a follower of his!

Seriously, do you really think the Roman Catholics worship Mary? Give it a rest. How many times do you have to hear the word "No"? As someone who grew up Roman Catholic, I almost want to slam the door in someone's face when they say this. It gets more than a little ridiculous. Book after book, debate after debate, radio show after radio show, and so on, people say "No" and someone else wants to turn it into "Yes" because that's what they wish it meant.

No. And no. And no some more.

Please stop.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Clemente
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Europe
Posts: 224


« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2012, 03:35:29 PM »

2. How does it differ from Catholicism?

Well, it doesn't differ too much. I think they have some dogmas in the Catholic Church that some Orthodox see as problematic such as the dogma of her being Co-Redemptrix. My knowledge of that particular dogma isn't very clear so I really couldn't tell you too much. However, I feel that the devotion assigned to St. Mary in the Orthodox Church and Catholic Church isn't very different at all. We Orthodox Christians have a very strong devotion to the Mother of God. Read any Akathist service or canon to her and you will see this very clearly. Orthodox wouldn't have any problem with the rosary for example. Some do, but it really centers around using the imagination during the rosary that Orthodox Christians find problems rather than the prayers themselves.


To be fair, "Co-Redemptrix" isn't dogma yet in the Roman Catholic Church. But it, along with "Co-Mediatrix" could be declared dogma in the future, since there is certainly much popular support for such dogma.

These titles are not typically found in Orthodoxy and certainly not Orthodox dogma.
Logged
Clemente
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Europe
Posts: 224


« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2012, 03:43:46 PM »

Quote from: Nuckle
I was long taught by other Protestants that Catholics worship Mary and I understand the Orthodox idea of Mary is not the same but still closer to Catholics than Protestants. I know Catholics do not really worship Mary (technically) but as a Protestant it still makes me feel a tad queasy. I don't think anybody would deny that even if the Roman Catholic Church does not articulate a theological position of Mary worship it is certainly true that many individual Catholics in the past have either danced this line or gone close to it. Louis de Montfort certainly danced about as close to the line as he could come and the previous Pope considered himself a follower of his!

Seriously, do you really think the Roman Catholics worship Mary? Give it a rest. How many times do you have to hear the word "No"? As someone who grew up Roman Catholic, I almost want to slam the door in someone's face when they say this. It gets more than a little ridiculous. Book after book, debate after debate, radio show after radio show, and so on, people say "No" and someone else wants to turn it into "Yes" because that's what they wish it meant.

No. And no. And no some more.

Please stop.
Yes, officially you are right; their veneration of the Theotokos is called hyperdulia. But often popular Roman Catholic hyperdulia is rather indistinguishable from worship reserved for God. Orthodox leaders have also denounced Roman Catholic Marian "hypertrophy", so be careful whom you are slamming the door on...
Logged
William
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2012, 03:48:27 PM »

Clemente, I think your approach is too mercenary. Trying to find the bare minimum of Tradition we'd be required to accept does not seem like a good idea to me.

The saints you cited were simply wrong, as many saints have been. Orthodox liturgics make it pretty clear what the Orthodox believe about Our Lady's sinlessness.

I agree with Andrew on this. But maybe it's just our bias as former Catholics showing.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,707


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2012, 03:51:02 PM »

Quote from: Nuckle
I was long taught by other Protestants that Catholics worship Mary and I understand the Orthodox idea of Mary is not the same but still closer to Catholics than Protestants. I know Catholics do not really worship Mary (technically) but as a Protestant it still makes me feel a tad queasy. I don't think anybody would deny that even if the Roman Catholic Church does not articulate a theological position of Mary worship it is certainly true that many individual Catholics in the past have either danced this line or gone close to it. Louis de Montfort certainly danced about as close to the line as he could come and the previous Pope considered himself a follower of his!

Seriously, do you really think the Roman Catholics worship Mary? Give it a rest. How many times do you have to hear the word "No"? As someone who grew up Roman Catholic, I almost want to slam the door in someone's face when they say this. It gets more than a little ridiculous. Book after book, debate after debate, radio show after radio show, and so on, people say "No" and someone else wants to turn it into "Yes" because that's what they wish it meant.

No. And no. And no some more.

Please stop.
Yes, officially you are right; their veneration of the Theotokos is called hyperdulia. But often popular Roman Catholic hyperdulia is rather indistinguishable from worship reserved for God. Orthodox leaders have also denounced Roman Catholic Marian "hypertrophy", so be careful whom you are slamming the door on...

You can say what you want. I don't see it that way.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2012, 04:07:35 PM »

Clemente, I think your approach is too mercenary. Trying to find the bare minimum of Tradition we'd be required to accept does not seem like a good idea to me.

The saints you cited were simply wrong, as many saints have been. Orthodox liturgics make it pretty clear what the Orthodox believe about Our Lady's sinlessness.

When you are talking about the common teaching of Sts. Cyril, Basil, and John Chrysostom and no Father contemporary with or earlier than them disagreed, you aren't talking about a 'bare minimum of Tradition'. You're talking about a pretty clear example of the Vincentian canon for establishing the 'Apostolic Tradition'. Especially since Orthodox liturgics actually agrees with them (not surprising given the liturgies of St. Basil and St. John are the core of our liturgics).

Every liturgy, Christ is addressed in absolute terms: "O Only Sinless One". The Theotokos, on the other hand, is addressed in comparitive terms ('most blessed', 'most pure', 'most immaculate')--that is, she is not the only blessed one, but of all blessed ones, she is the most.

But to focus for Nuckle, this is not a dogmatic issue because the sins (or lack thereof) of another human being are completely irrelevent to your salvation (or mine--I'm saying 'you' for the sake of the argument, but everything I imply about 'you' certainly applies to 'me'). If the Theotokos sinned/when the Theotokos sinned, if St. John the Baptist sinned/when St. John sinned, if your mother sinned/when your mother sinned, none of that is relevant to whether or not you have sinned, and if you have what you need to do in relationship to Christ and His Church to address that.
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
Clemente
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Europe
Posts: 224


« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2012, 04:12:29 PM »

Clemente, I think your approach is too mercenary. Trying to find the bare minimum of Tradition we'd be required to accept does not seem like a good idea to me.

The saints you cited were simply wrong, as many saints have been. Orthodox liturgics make it pretty clear what the Orthodox believe about Our Lady's sinlessness.

I agree with Andrew on this. But maybe it's just our bias as former Catholics showing.
I guess you know better than these saints then. St John Maximovitch was quite familiar with Orthodox liturgics, you know. He explains his thoughtful position with ample evidence from the Fathers in The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God. If his view is not acceptable in Orthodoxy, why was he canonised? And then, St. John Chrysostom knew a bit also about liturgics...

Since the sinlessness of Mary has never been dogmatically defined, I see no reason for a potential convert to assume a Roman Catholic understanding that Mary was sinless from conception when other understandings may be possible in Orthodoxy that are also consistent with our liturgics.

I also think it is not an issue to get hung up on. At least that is the advice I got from a priest when I was in a similar place. I would speak to a priest about it if necessary.
Logged
Clemente
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Europe
Posts: 224


« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2012, 04:17:56 PM »

When you are talking about the common teaching of Sts. Cyril, Basil, and John Chrysostom and no Father contemporary with or earlier than them disagreed, you aren't talking about a 'bare minimum of Tradition'. You're talking about a pretty clear example of the Vincentian canon for establishing the 'Apostolic Tradition'. Especially since Orthodox liturgics actually agrees with them (not surprising given the liturgies of St. Basil and St. John are the core of our liturgics).

Every liturgy, Christ is addressed in absolute terms: "O Only Sinless One". The Theotokos, on the other hand, is addressed in comparitive terms ('most blessed', 'most pure', 'most immaculate')--that is, she is not the only blessed one, but of all blessed ones, she is the most.

But to focus for Nuckle, this is not a dogmatic issue because the sins (or lack thereof) of another human being are completely irrelevent to your salvation (or mine--I'm saying 'you' for the sake of the argument, but everything I imply about 'you' certainly applies to 'me'). If the Theotokos sinned/when the Theotokos sinned, if St. John the Baptist sinned/when St. John sinned, if your mother sinned/when your mother sinned, none of that is relevant to whether or not you have sinned, and if you have what you need to do in relationship to Christ and His Church to address that.

I agree completely with you advice here.
Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,534



« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2012, 04:18:34 PM »

Clemente, I think your approach is too mercenary. Trying to find the bare minimum of Tradition we'd be required to accept does not seem like a good idea to me.

The saints you cited were simply wrong, as many saints have been. Orthodox liturgics make it pretty clear what the Orthodox believe about Our Lady's sinlessness.

When you are talking about the common teaching of Sts. Cyril, Basil, and John Chrysostom and no Father contemporary with or earlier than them disagreed, you aren't talking about a 'bare minimum of Tradition'. You're talking about a pretty clear example of the Vincentian canon for establishing the 'Apostolic Tradition'. Especially since Orthodox liturgics actually agrees with them (not surprising given the liturgies of St. Basil and St. John are the core of our liturgics).

Every liturgy, Christ is addressed in absolute terms: "O Only Sinless One". The Theotokos, on the other hand, is addressed in comparitive terms ('most blessed', 'most pure', 'most immaculate')--that is, she is not the only blessed one, but of all blessed ones, she is the most.

But to focus for Nuckle, this is not a dogmatic issue because the sins (or lack thereof) of another human being are completely irrelevent to your salvation (or mine--I'm saying 'you' for the sake of the argument, but everything I imply about 'you' certainly applies to 'me'). If the Theotokos sinned/when the Theotokos sinned, if St. John the Baptist sinned/when St. John sinned, if your mother sinned/when your mother sinned, none of that is relevant to whether or not you have sinned, and if you have what you need to do in relationship to Christ and His Church to address that.

But what are we to make of services like the small paraklesis, where the Theotokos is called things like "only all-blameless one"?
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2012, 04:21:34 PM »

Clemente, I think your approach is too mercenary. Trying to find the bare minimum of Tradition we'd be required to accept does not seem like a good idea to me.

The saints you cited were simply wrong, as many saints have been. Orthodox liturgics make it pretty clear what the Orthodox believe about Our Lady's sinlessness.

When you are talking about the common teaching of Sts. Cyril, Basil, and John Chrysostom and no Father contemporary with or earlier than them disagreed, you aren't talking about a 'bare minimum of Tradition'. You're talking about a pretty clear example of the Vincentian canon for establishing the 'Apostolic Tradition'. Especially since Orthodox liturgics actually agrees with them (not surprising given the liturgies of St. Basil and St. John are the core of our liturgics).

Every liturgy, Christ is addressed in absolute terms: "O Only Sinless One". The Theotokos, on the other hand, is addressed in comparitive terms ('most blessed', 'most pure', 'most immaculate')--that is, she is not the only blessed one, but of all blessed ones, she is the most.

But to focus for Nuckle, this is not a dogmatic issue because the sins (or lack thereof) of another human being are completely irrelevent to your salvation (or mine--I'm saying 'you' for the sake of the argument, but everything I imply about 'you' certainly applies to 'me'). If the Theotokos sinned/when the Theotokos sinned, if St. John the Baptist sinned/when St. John sinned, if your mother sinned/when your mother sinned, none of that is relevant to whether or not you have sinned, and if you have what you need to do in relationship to Christ and His Church to address that.

But what are we to make of services like the small paraklesis, where the Theotokos is called things like "only all-blameless one"?

One can sin without blame.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,707


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2012, 04:34:08 PM »

Really? You mean like an involuntary sin?  Huh
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
William
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2012, 04:36:48 PM »

When you are talking about the common teaching of Sts. Cyril, Basil, and John Chrysostom
I'd like to see a reference for Sts. Cyril or Basil.

Quote
and no Father contemporary with or earlier than them disagreed,
I doubt it. But even if that were true, no Father earlier than the Cappadocians taught that the Trinity is three hypostases subsisting in one ousia. Different facets of the faith get more explicit exposition at different times.

Quote
you aren't talking about a 'bare minimum of Tradition'.
Keep in mind that I was also referring to Clemente saying that Protestant converts are not required to accept the Dormition/Assumption.

Quote
Especially since Orthodox liturgics actually agrees with them (not surprising given the liturgies of St. Basil and St. John are the core of our liturgics).
Speaking of St. John Chrysostom's liturgy, what is chanted toward the end of the anaphora, again?

Quote
Every liturgy, Christ is addressed in absolute terms: "O Only Sinless One". The Theotokos, on the other hand, is addressed in comparitive terms ('most blessed', 'most pure', 'most immaculate')--that is, she is not the only blessed one, but of all blessed ones, she is the most.
I've also heard "all-pure," "all-immaculate" and other things like that. I'm not sure how your argument would hold up in the original Greek.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
William
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2012, 04:42:33 PM »

I guess you know better than these saints then.
And I guess you know better than all the Orthodox who believe that Mary was, indeed, sinless.  Roll Eyes

Can we avoid the indignant, "I guess you know better than x" posts? It doesn't really get us anywhere.

Quote
St John Maximovitch was quite familiar with Orthodox liturgics, you know. He explains his thoughtful position with ample evidence from the Fathers in The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God. If his view is not acceptable in Orthodoxy, why was he canonised?

Augustine, Theodoret of Cyrrhus, Isaac the Syrian, etc.

Quote
Since the sinlessness of Mary has never been dogmatically defined, I see no reason for a potential convert to assume a Roman Catholic understanding that Mary was sinless from conception when other understandings may be possible in Orthodoxy that are also consistent with our liturgics.

I also think it is not an issue to get hung up on. At least that is the advice I got from a priest when I was in a similar place. I would speak to a priest about it if necessary.

I just don't like seeing Orthodox tradition getting trampled on and marginalized in order to pander to certain demographics of converts.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
Clemente
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Europe
Posts: 224


« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2012, 05:13:14 PM »

I guess you know better than these saints then.
And I guess you know better than all the Orthodox who believe that Mary was, indeed, sinless.  Roll Eyes

Can we avoid the indignant, "I guess you know better than x" posts? It doesn't really get us anywhere.

Quote
St John Maximovitch was quite familiar with Orthodox liturgics, you know. He explains his thoughtful position with ample evidence from the Fathers in The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God. If his view is not acceptable in Orthodoxy, why was he canonised?

Augustine, Theodoret of Cyrrhus, Isaac the Syrian, etc.

Quote
Since the sinlessness of Mary has never been dogmatically defined, I see no reason for a potential convert to assume a Roman Catholic understanding that Mary was sinless from conception when other understandings may be possible in Orthodoxy that are also consistent with our liturgics.

I also think it is not an issue to get hung up on. At least that is the advice I got from a priest when I was in a similar place. I would speak to a priest about it if necessary.

I just don't like seeing Orthodox tradition getting trampled on and marginalized in order to pander to certain demographics of converts.
I just don't like dogma being declared by Internet posters. I'll leave that to Ecumenical Councils.

Why are you insisting on a particular dogma when no such has been declared? I'm not insisting on a particular view, but rather just recognising that there are a variety of legitimate views about the sinlessness of the Theotokos within Orthodoxy.

Is agreeing with prominent Fathers such St. John Crysostom or St. John Maximovitch trampling on Orthodox tradition? I think you are exaggerating just a tad. I don't think this is a matter for the Gran Inquisitor.
Logged
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,453



« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2012, 08:08:22 PM »

Mary is not honoured because she's Mary. She is not honoured because of her sinlessness - whatever that may mean. She is honoured because she gave birth to God through her obedience. Without the Incarnation, we would have no salvation. She is worthy of an honour that cannot be given to any other human being.

As I grow in my understanding of the Incarnation, I realize more and more the importance of her role. It did take a while to reach that point. One of the best works I have read about her is "On the Mother of God" by Jacob of Serug (non-Chalcedonian). It's a beautiful and relatively short work that I try to read at least once a year.
Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2012, 08:29:30 PM »

If "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" then every child born even a moment ago, is a sinner.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2012, 08:38:34 PM »

Hi all. I've been following this thread with some interest. Until today I would have said "The Orthodox believe Mary was sinless"; but some here seem to be saying that it's not that simple.  Huh
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2012, 08:39:59 PM »

If "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" then every child born even a moment ago, is a sinner.

Well... we ARE all born 'fallen' short.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2012, 08:42:41 PM »

2. How does it differ from Catholicism?

Well, it doesn't differ too much. I think they have some dogmas in the Catholic Church that some Orthodox see as problematic such as the dogma of her being Co-Redemptrix. My knowledge of that particular dogma isn't very clear so I really couldn't tell you too much. However, I feel that the devotion assigned to St. Mary in the Orthodox Church and Catholic Church isn't very different at all. We Orthodox Christians have a very strong devotion to the Mother of God. Read any Akathist service or canon to her and you will see this very clearly. Orthodox wouldn't have any problem with the rosary for example. Some do, but it really centers around using the imagination during the rosary that Orthodox Christians find problems rather than the prayers themselves.


To be fair, "Co-Redemptrix" isn't dogma yet in the Roman Catholic Church. But it, along with "Co-Mediatrix" could be declared dogma in the future, since there is certainly much popular support for such dogma.

These titles are not typically found in Orthodoxy and certainly not Orthodox dogma.

I was ready to cue the game-show buzzer when Andrew that Catholics have a "dogma of her being Co-Redemptrix".

As far as the possibility that it will be dogmatically defined in the future ... well, naturally I can't prove that it won't be, but I see no reason to expect it.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2012, 08:44:29 PM »

Yes, officially you are right; their veneration of the Theotokos is called hyperdulia. But often popular Roman Catholic hyperdulia is rather indistinguishable from worship reserved for God.

Your assertion is simultaneously harsh and vague.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2012, 08:46:07 PM »

Question for anyone here: is it fair to say that Orthodox are fine with the phrase "praying to Mary"?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2012, 08:52:16 PM »

Question for anyone here: is it fair to say that Orthodox are fine with the phrase "praying to Mary"?

Through

It even rhymes and still a single syllable and you can write it thru or hows some says it: tru, so it is nearly as short and looks pretty much the same as well.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,619


Teaching on the mountain


« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2012, 01:32:36 AM »

Question for anyone here: is it fair to say that Orthodox are fine with the phrase "praying to Mary"?
Nah, of course.
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2012, 01:58:08 AM »

She is the Theotokos.  Wink

Enough said, no ?
Um, no.

That's right, he forgot the ever-virgin part  angel

As far as her "sinless status" this has no bearing on our salvation. This is always a controversial topic. I'm agnostic about the subject...I affirm what we say about her in the liturgy. I'm certainly not going to accuse her.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 02:01:49 AM by Ortho_cat » Logged
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,983


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2012, 02:35:54 AM »



There are five questions that I hope people can answer all or some of them.

1. What is the Orthodox perspective on Mary?

 You will get all sorts of answers from people who have not been properly catechized, unfortunately.  If you want the Churches 'official' dogmatic teaching on the Theotokos, may I suggest the following online catechism?

* These Truths We Hold

As for your other questions regarding what Roman Catholics believe about the Theotokos, you need to consult Roman Catholic teachings.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 03:04:33 AM by GabrieltheCelt » Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Clemente
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Europe
Posts: 224


« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2012, 02:38:49 AM »

Hi all. I've been following this thread with some interest. Until today I would have said "The Orthodox believe Mary was sinless"; but some here seem to be saying that it's not that simple.  Huh
About 50% of Orthodox posters here believe she was always sinless, according to this poll.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=28645.0

This has been treated in numerous threads.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2012, 04:05:22 AM »

Yes, officially you are right; their veneration of the Theotokos is called hyperdulia. But often popular Roman Catholic hyperdulia is rather indistinguishable from worship reserved for God. Orthodox leaders have also denounced Roman Catholic Marian "hypertrophy", so be careful whom you are slamming the door on...
However, generally Catholics ask Mary to pray for us and to intercede for us. However, in the Orthodox Church there is a prayer: Most Holy Mother of God, save us. This Orthodox prayer appears to be somewhat stronger than most Roman Catholic prayers to Mary.
Logged
WeldeMikael
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 506


« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2012, 05:03:08 AM »

We Roman Catholic have a plenty of prayers to Mary too !
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,531


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2012, 05:18:48 AM »

Still, is Mary exempted from ever having sinned? If Paul says all have sinned how can all not apply to her?

no
Would you care to elaborate?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,531


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2012, 05:31:24 AM »

I guess you know better than these saints then.
And I guess you know better than all the Orthodox who believe that Mary was, indeed, sinless.  Roll Eyes

Can we avoid the indignant, "I guess you know better than x" posts? It doesn't really get us anywhere.

Quote
St John Maximovitch was quite familiar with Orthodox liturgics, you know. He explains his thoughtful position with ample evidence from the Fathers in The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God. If his view is not acceptable in Orthodoxy, why was he canonised?

Augustine, Theodoret of Cyrrhus, Isaac the Syrian, etc.

Quote
Since the sinlessness of Mary has never been dogmatically defined, I see no reason for a potential convert to assume a Roman Catholic understanding that Mary was sinless from conception when other understandings may be possible in Orthodoxy that are also consistent with our liturgics.

I also think it is not an issue to get hung up on. At least that is the advice I got from a priest when I was in a similar place. I would speak to a priest about it if necessary.

I just don't like seeing Orthodox tradition getting trampled on and marginalized in order to pander to certain demographics of converts.
How well do you really know Orthodox Tradition?
Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,534



« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2012, 05:40:45 AM »

I guess you know better than these saints then.
And I guess you know better than all the Orthodox who believe that Mary was, indeed, sinless.  Roll Eyes

Can we avoid the indignant, "I guess you know better than x" posts? It doesn't really get us anywhere.

Quote
St John Maximovitch was quite familiar with Orthodox liturgics, you know. He explains his thoughtful position with ample evidence from the Fathers in The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God. If his view is not acceptable in Orthodoxy, why was he canonised?

Augustine, Theodoret of Cyrrhus, Isaac the Syrian, etc.

Quote
Since the sinlessness of Mary has never been dogmatically defined, I see no reason for a potential convert to assume a Roman Catholic understanding that Mary was sinless from conception when other understandings may be possible in Orthodoxy that are also consistent with our liturgics.

I also think it is not an issue to get hung up on. At least that is the advice I got from a priest when I was in a similar place. I would speak to a priest about it if necessary.

I just don't like seeing Orthodox tradition getting trampled on and marginalized in order to pander to certain demographics of converts.
How well do you really know Orthodox Tradition?
Mileage may vary based on how much the sophist making such a judgment agrees with the one being judged.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Bigsinner
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA  (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 436



« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2012, 08:02:08 AM »

Yes, officially you are right; their veneration of the Theotokos is called hyperdulia. But often popular Roman Catholic hyperdulia is rather indistinguishable from worship reserved for God. Orthodox leaders have also denounced Roman Catholic Marian "hypertrophy", so be careful whom you are slamming the door on...
However, generally Catholics ask Mary to pray for us and to intercede for us. However, in the Orthodox Church there is a prayer: Most Holy Mother of God, save us. This Orthodox prayer appears to be somewhat stronger than most Roman Catholic prayers to Mary.

I have to admit, I have always been a little uncomfortable with this prayer, and I was never a Protestant.  Is this a mis-translation from another language?  Huh 
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2012, 08:23:05 AM »

Question for anyone here: is it fair to say that Orthodox are fine with the phrase "praying to Mary"?
Nah, of course.

I can't tell if you're saying "of course" or "of course not". The latter would fit better with orthonorm's answer:

Question for anyone here: is it fair to say that Orthodox are fine with the phrase "praying to Mary"?

Through

It even rhymes and still a single syllable and you can write it thru or hows some says it: tru, so it is nearly as short and looks pretty much the same as well.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2012, 09:30:54 AM »

However, generally Catholics ask Mary to pray for us and to intercede for us. However, in the Orthodox Church there is a prayer: Most Holy Mother of God, save us. This Orthodox prayer appears to be somewhat stronger than most Roman Catholic prayers to Mary.
I have to admit, I have always been a little uncomfortable with this prayer, and I was never a Protestant.  Is this a mis-translation from another language?  Huh  

It's not a mistranslation. The same word is also used by Paul when he writes about one spouse saving the other, himself becoming all things to all men that he might save some, telling Timothy that he could save himself and his congregation, James uses the same word when talking about saving a brother and hiding a multitude of sins when you correct him, and Jude says to save other s with fear pulling them out of the fire.

Perhaps this prayer would be better understood within the context of how the word "saved" is used scripturally in these passages.

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 09:31:49 AM by Melodist » Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
Posts: 2,109



« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2012, 09:44:14 AM »

However, generally Catholics ask Mary to pray for us and to intercede for us. However, in the Orthodox Church there is a prayer: Most Holy Mother of God, save us. This Orthodox prayer appears to be somewhat stronger than most Roman Catholic prayers to Mary.
I have to admit, I have always been a little uncomfortable with this prayer, and I was never a Protestant.  Is this a mis-translation from another language?  Huh  

It's not a mistranslation. The same word is also used by Paul when he writes about one spouse saving the other, himself becoming all things to all men that he might save some, telling Timothy that he could save himself and his congregation, James uses the same word when talking about saving a brother and hiding a multitude of sins when you correct him, and Jude says to save other s with fear pulling them out of the fire.

Perhaps this prayer would be better understood within the context of how the word "saved" is used scripturally in these passages.

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".
I used to be a part of a parish that does this.

Question for anyone here: is it fair to say that Orthodox are fine with the phrase "praying to Mary"?
I am.
Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL ORTHODOX CHURCH
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2012, 10:05:10 AM »

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,193


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2012, 10:09:14 AM »

I know at the end of vespers we'll have some type of adoration song for the Theotokos and a small prayer asking to protect us or something similar.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2012, 10:54:49 AM »

Nuckle,



I found these to be very helpful some years ago. Maybe you will too:

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/2008/11/who-is-theotokos.html (Who is the Theotokos?)

Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2012, 11:46:28 AM »

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

Not everyone inserts the "Most holy Theotokos save us".
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2012, 12:01:32 PM »

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

Not everyone inserts the "Most holy Theotokos save us".

Oh, okay I see what you're saying.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2012, 12:10:21 PM »

The evos didn't invent the English language believe it or not.

No reason to worry or concern ourselves with how they've decided to narrowly define a single word in English which is actually quite broad in its meaning.

This cuts both ways. By not taking it out or going the unfortunate route of Orthodox really believing what the evos criticize us for.

Mary saves us.

But really, like Fr. Thom says, this really shouldn't be part of a discussion with an evo who is Ortho-curious. Too easily to go wrong, hard for it to go right.

How we understand Christ is what matters first and foremost. 
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,531


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2012, 12:27:17 PM »

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

Not everyone inserts the "Most holy Theotokos save us".
It's only in the Greek and Antiochian churches that I've seen the practice.
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2012, 12:34:18 PM »

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

Not everyone inserts the "Most holy Theotokos save us".
It's only in the Greek and Antiochian churches that I've seen the practice.

This is getting confusing . . . PtA, do you mean not using "Most Holy Theotokos save us"?
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,531


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2012, 12:51:32 PM »

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

Not everyone inserts the "Most holy Theotokos save us".
It's only in the Greek and Antiochian churches that I've seen the practice.

This is getting confusing . . . PtA, do you mean not using "Most Holy Theotokos save us"?
No, I mean the practice of inserting the "Most Holy Theotokos save us."
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2012, 01:02:49 PM »

So if Mary is without sin how do you reconcile this with the biblical admonition that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? Does this imply Mary is excepted from all and if so how?

We believe she is without voluntary sin. There is, however, involuntary sin. We say in prayers that we sin at every hour, and we ask for God to forgive those sins about which we know and those sins about which we don't know--our perspective is very limited, and sin clouds it. The Mother of Christ our God also needed a savior, like all of us. She is not excepted from humanity. Only Jesus Christ is completely sinless.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2012, 01:04:30 PM »

So if Mary is without sin how do you reconcile this with the biblical admonition that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God?
I never thought this passage of Scripture was intended to establish a mathematical "all" defined as every individual member of a set. Besides, the verse was written so that we may apply it each to him/herself, not to some other person.

In support of what Peter says here, there are many verses where "all" does not literally mean every individual ever.  For instance, 2 Corinthians 3:2 - "You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men."  Yet not every man had or has read the epistle.  Is. 24:7 - "The new wine fails, the vine languishes, All the merry-hearted sigh."  There are many other examples

Also, another way to think about this is with regards to the difference between intentional and unintentional sin.  I tend to think about it this way, to be honest.  I think it would be perfectly reasonable, in light of various Scripture passages I've read, to believe Mary may have unintentionally sinned at some point(s) from the time she was an infant to when she fell asleep but just never intentionally sinned.  Who am I to say?

This isn't something I think much about to be honest.  The traditions that honor highly her are early and seem to be Apostolic.  Among women, she is most blessed.  She was chosen to bear the Christ child and raise him in motherly-kindness.  It is healthy and good to honor her.  The Scriptures do, the early, holy, Apostolic church Fathers do, and Christ honored her very highly when he started his public ministry at her request.

"All generations shall call me blessed."
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2012, 01:08:39 PM »

Mary is not honoured because she's Mary. She is not honoured because of her sinlessness - whatever that may mean. She is honoured because she gave birth to God through her obedience. Without the Incarnation, we would have no salvation. She is worthy of an honour that cannot be given to any other human being.

As I grow in my understanding of the Incarnation, I realize more and more the importance of her role. It did take a while to reach that point. One of the best works I have read about her is "On the Mother of God" by Jacob of Serug (non-Chalcedonian). It's a beautiful and relatively short work that I try to read at least once a year.

Amen. And thank you.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2012, 01:11:58 PM »

Question for anyone here: is it fair to say that Orthodox are fine with the phrase "praying to Mary"?

Why not? A prayer is a communication, a cry from the heart. When I ask her for something, I'm not asking her to ask the Lord, who will then get back to her, and she will do whatever. That would be really overthinking it and perhaps warping things. I ask my friend, my parent, my priest, my patron saint, the mother of my God, and God Himself for things; I talk with all of them. We are a family. We have intimacy.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2012, 01:15:17 PM »



There are five questions that I hope people can answer all or some of them.

1. What is the Orthodox perspective on Mary?

 You will get all sorts of answers from people who have not been properly catechized, unfortunately.  If you want the Churches 'official' dogmatic teaching on the Theotokos, may I suggest the following online catechism?

* These Truths We Hold

As for your other questions regarding what Roman Catholics believe about the Theotokos, you need to consult Roman Catholic teachings.

The dogmatic teachings of Mary held by the EOC are that she is ever-virgin and Theotokos. No more, no less.
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2012, 01:16:17 PM »

Yes, officially you are right; their veneration of the Theotokos is called hyperdulia. But often popular Roman Catholic hyperdulia is rather indistinguishable from worship reserved for God. Orthodox leaders have also denounced Roman Catholic Marian "hypertrophy", so be careful whom you are slamming the door on...
However, generally Catholics ask Mary to pray for us and to intercede for us. However, in the Orthodox Church there is a prayer: Most Holy Mother of God, save us. This Orthodox prayer appears to be somewhat stronger than most Roman Catholic prayers to Mary.

I have to admit, I have always been a little uncomfortable with this prayer, and I was never a Protestant.  Is this a mis-translation from another language?  Huh 

It is not soteriological, it is imminent. The Greek "sozon" has several meanings, just as the English "save." When Peter was sinking after walking on water, he cried to the Lord, "Kyrie, sozon me!" The Lord did not let him sink, in order to save him later when He was crucified. Likewise, when we ask Our Lady to save us, we are asking her to save us from danger, and not saying that somehow her Son's death on the Cross is ineffective.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,707


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2012, 01:16:25 PM »

To "pray" originally meant to beg, cry or ask pleadingly. If you've ever seen the phrase in old plays, "I prithee," it's a contraction of "I pray thee." Many words used to have more than one meaning, and still do, only people forget about the variations and just remember the first. We should be careful not to conflate the shades of meaning, because they are not the same.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2012, 01:17:53 PM »

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

The Slavic churches do not do this; the Greek ones do. I don't know about the Slavic churches ruled by Greeks or the Greeks ruled by Slavs, or the Georgians who are neither Slavs nor Greeks.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #69 on: February 28, 2012, 01:20:17 PM »

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

Not everyone inserts the "Most holy Theotokos save us".

sometimes we say this at vespers, but not in the DL. We use "to Thee, O Lord"
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #70 on: February 28, 2012, 01:21:45 PM »

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

The Slavic churches do not do this; the Greek ones do. I don't know about the Slavic churches ruled by Greeks or the Greeks ruled by Slavs, or the Georgians who are neither Slavs nor Greeks.

Melodist, explain to me why I am getting confused here.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,534



« Reply #71 on: February 28, 2012, 02:05:28 PM »

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

The Slavic churches do not do this; the Greek ones do. I don't know about the Slavic churches ruled by Greeks or the Greeks ruled by Slavs, or the Georgians who are neither Slavs nor Greeks.

That's odd, my parish is Greek, and they don't do it. I have seen this done at an Antiochian parish, however.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,768


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2012, 02:25:06 PM »

This Orthodox prayer appears to be somewhat stronger than most Roman Catholic prayers to Mary.
The last time I was in a catholic church, I think a passing mention was made once to "mary and the saints and angels", but that was it.  Grin
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 02:25:19 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #73 on: February 28, 2012, 02:30:13 PM »

This Orthodox prayer appears to be somewhat stronger than most Roman Catholic prayers to Mary.
The last time I was in a catholic church, I think a passing mention was made once to "mary and the saints and angels", but that was it.  Grin

Sorry buddy, but during Forgiveness Vespers, the odd* text we were using had Mediatrix in it.

*Odd meaning here, some the parts we typically have in Vespers was off a bit languagewise. IOW, odd to me.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
podkarpatska
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,020


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #74 on: February 28, 2012, 02:34:52 PM »



The Slavic churches do not do this; the Greek ones do. I don't know about the Slavic churches ruled by Greeks or the Greeks ruled by Slavs, or the Georgians who are neither Slavs nor Greeks.


I have never heard that inserted in ACROD parishes. From 'Come to Me', the English prayerbook of the Carpatho-Russian Diocese under the Ecumenical Patriarchate. (ACROD):  

"Commemorating our ever-holy, ever-pure, ever-blessed and glorious Lady, the Birth-giver of God and ever-Virgin Mary, together with all the Saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God. "

The response is 'To You, O Lord' or in Slavonic 'Tebi Hospodi.'

The only thing close is the refrain found in the First Antiphon: "Through the prayers of the Birth-giver of God, O Saviour, save us." This, very clearly, is merely an intercessory prayer. Salvation is through Our Saviour.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 02:35:50 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,768


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #75 on: February 28, 2012, 02:35:33 PM »

Sorry buddy, but during Forgiveness Vespers, the odd* text we were using had Mediatrix in it.

*Odd meaning here, some the parts we typically have in Vespers was off a bit languagewise. IOW, odd to me.
I went to the Canon at an OCA church yesterday, and also heard Mediatrix then.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #76 on: February 28, 2012, 03:16:00 PM »

To "pray" originally meant to beg, cry or ask pleadingly. If you've ever seen the phrase in old plays, "I prithee," it's a contraction of "I pray thee." Many words used to have more than one meaning, and still do, only people forget about the variations and just remember the first. We should be careful not to conflate the shades of meaning, because they are not the same.

Agreed.

The word is still used this way in the law. The orders sought by the applicant in a case are referred to as his/her prayers.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #77 on: February 28, 2012, 03:24:23 PM »

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

Not everyone inserts the "Most holy Theotokos save us".

sometimes we say this at vespers, but not in the DL. We use "to Thee, O Lord"

Just to be clear, the "yperayian Theotoke, soson imas" / "most-holy Theotokos, save us" does not replace the "Si, Kyrie" / "to You, o Lord", but is rather sung at a (preferably) low volume while the priest or deacon intones "tis panayias, &c." / "commemorating our most-holy, &c.".

The choir/people will usually chime in when the priest or deacon gets to the word "Marias" / "Mary" and will have finished by the time the priest or deacon gets to "ke pasan tin zoin imon" / "and our whole life".

Personally, I find the practice distracting and a bit redundant.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #78 on: February 28, 2012, 03:27:58 PM »

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

Not everyone inserts the "Most holy Theotokos save us".

sometimes we say this at vespers, but not in the DL. We use "to Thee, O Lord"

Just to be clear, the "yperayian Theotoke, soson imas" / "most-holy Theotokos, save us" does not replace the "Si, Kyrie" / "to You, o Lord", but is rather sung at a (preferably) low volume while the priest or deacon intones "tis panayias, &c." / "commemorating our most-holy, &c.".

The choir/people will usually chime in when the priest or deacon gets to the word "Marias" / "Mary" and will have finished by the time the priest or deacon gets to "ke pasan tin zoin imon" / "and our whole life".

Personally, I find the practice distracting and a bit redundant.

ya we do it as you described during vespers.
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #79 on: February 28, 2012, 03:29:13 PM »

Sorry buddy, but during Forgiveness Vespers, the odd* text we were using had Mediatrix in it.

*Odd meaning here, some the parts we typically have in Vespers was off a bit languagewise. IOW, odd to me.
I went to the Canon at an OCA church yesterday, and also heard Mediatrix then.

can someone give the context that this word was found in?
Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,768


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #80 on: February 28, 2012, 03:42:38 PM »

Sorry buddy, but during Forgiveness Vespers, the odd* text we were using had Mediatrix in it.

*Odd meaning here, some the parts we typically have in Vespers was off a bit languagewise. IOW, odd to me.
I went to the Canon at an OCA church yesterday, and also heard Mediatrix then.

can someone give the context that this word was found in?
It's supposed to be Mediator. Maybe the St. Alexis-era converts to the OCA kept translations including the latin "Mediatrix".

Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #81 on: February 28, 2012, 03:43:47 PM »

Sorry buddy, but during Forgiveness Vespers, the odd* text we were using had Mediatrix in it.

*Odd meaning here, some the parts we typically have in Vespers was off a bit languagewise. IOW, odd to me.
I went to the Canon at an OCA church yesterday, and also heard Mediatrix then.

can someone give the context that this word was found in?
It's supposed to be Mediator. Maybe the St. Alexis-era converts to the OCA kept translations including the latin "Mediatrix".



Do you have a particular objection to "mediatrix" other than that it sounds a bit archaic and clumsy?
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #82 on: February 28, 2012, 03:47:40 PM »

Sorry buddy, but during Forgiveness Vespers, the odd* text we were using had Mediatrix in it.

*Odd meaning here, some the parts we typically have in Vespers was off a bit languagewise. IOW, odd to me.
I went to the Canon at an OCA church yesterday, and also heard Mediatrix then.

can someone give the context that this word was found in?
It's supposed to be Mediator. Maybe the St. Alexis-era converts to the OCA kept translations including the latin "Mediatrix".



Do you have a particular objection to "mediatrix" other than that it sounds a bit archaic and clumsy?

We've been here before. Read around this post:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13075.msg675024.html#msg675024
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #83 on: February 28, 2012, 03:56:56 PM »

Sorry buddy, but during Forgiveness Vespers, the odd* text we were using had Mediatrix in it.

*Odd meaning here, some the parts we typically have in Vespers was off a bit languagewise. IOW, odd to me.
I went to the Canon at an OCA church yesterday, and also heard Mediatrix then.

can someone give the context that this word was found in?
It's supposed to be Mediator. Maybe the St. Alexis-era converts to the OCA kept translations including the latin "Mediatrix".



Do you have a particular objection to "mediatrix" other than that it sounds a bit archaic and clumsy?

We've been here before. Read around this post:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13075.msg675024.html#msg675024

Thanks.

Nice Holmes quote, by the way, hah.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #84 on: February 28, 2012, 04:15:16 PM »

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

Not everyone inserts the "Most holy Theotokos save us".

sometimes we say this at vespers, but not in the DL. We use "to Thee, O Lord"

Just to be clear, the "yperayian Theotoke, soson imas" / "most-holy Theotokos, save us" does not replace the "Si, Kyrie" / "to You, o Lord", but is rather sung at a (preferably) low volume while the priest or deacon intones "tis panayias, &c." / "commemorating our most-holy, &c.".

The choir/people will usually chime in when the priest or deacon gets to the word "Marias" / "Mary" and will have finished by the time the priest or deacon gets to "ke pasan tin zoin imon" / "and our whole life".

Personally, I find the practice distracting and a bit redundant.

Does one redundant Byzantine liturgical practice stick out amongst so many others?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,453



« Reply #85 on: February 28, 2012, 04:37:37 PM »

Just to be clear, the "yperayian Theotoke, soson imas" / "most-holy Theotokos, save us" does not replace the "Si, Kyrie" / "to You, o Lord", but is rather sung at a (preferably) low volume while the priest or deacon intones "tis panayias, &c." / "commemorating our most-holy, &c.".

The choir/people will usually chime in when the priest or deacon gets to the word "Marias" / "Mary" and will have finished by the time the priest or deacon gets to "ke pasan tin zoin imon" / "and our whole life".

Personally, I find the practice distracting and a bit redundant.
This is how we do it, too (in English only, though). I don't find it any more distracting than singing other hymns during the priest's prayers. It's all part of the symphony of the clergy and the rest of the people each doing their part.
Logged
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #86 on: February 28, 2012, 05:04:26 PM »

Melodist, explain to me why I am getting confused here.

What we do:

Priest: Commemorating our ever-holy, ever-pure, ever-blessed and glorious Lady, the Birth-giver of God and ever-Virgin Mary, together with all the Saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

People: To Thee O Lord


Alternative tradition found in some churches:

Priest: Commemorating our ever-holy, ever-pure, ever-blessed and glorious Lady, the Birth-giver of God and ever-Virgin Mary,

People: Most holy Theotokos save us

Priest: Together with all the Saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

People: To Thee O Lord


I know they use the second one at St James (Antiochian).
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #87 on: February 28, 2012, 05:15:55 PM »

Melodist, explain to me why I am getting confused here.

What we do:

Priest: Commemorating our ever-holy, ever-pure, ever-blessed and glorious Lady, the Birth-giver of God and ever-Virgin Mary, together with all the Saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

People: To Thee O Lord


Alternative tradition found in some churches:

Priest: Commemorating our ever-holy, ever-pure, ever-blessed and glorious Lady, the Birth-giver of God and ever-Virgin Mary,

People: Most holy Theotokos save us

Priest: Together with all the Saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

People: To Thee O Lord


I know they use the second one at St James (Antiochian).
Here is the accusation against Marian Catholic belief and practice by an Orthodox poster:
But often popular Roman Catholic hyperdulia is rather indistinguishable from worship reserved for God. Orthodox leaders have also denounced Roman Catholic Marian "hypertrophy", so be careful whom you are slamming the door on...
However, I would suggest that the prayer: Most holy Mother of God save us, is quite strong even in the context as quoted above.
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #88 on: February 28, 2012, 05:54:44 PM »

Melodist, explain to me why I am getting confused here.

What we do:

Priest: Commemorating our ever-holy, ever-pure, ever-blessed and glorious Lady, the Birth-giver of God and ever-Virgin Mary, together with all the Saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

People: To Thee O Lord


Alternative tradition found in some churches:

Priest: Commemorating our ever-holy, ever-pure, ever-blessed and glorious Lady, the Birth-giver of God and ever-Virgin Mary,

People: Most holy Theotokos save us

Priest: Together with all the Saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

People: To Thee O Lord


I know they use the second one at St James (Antiochian).
Here is the accusation against Marian Catholic belief and practice by an Orthodox poster:
But often popular Roman Catholic hyperdulia is rather indistinguishable from worship reserved for God. Orthodox leaders have also denounced Roman Catholic Marian "hypertrophy", so be careful whom you are slamming the door on...
However, I would suggest that the prayer: Most holy Mother of God save us, is quite strong even in the context as quoted above.

Thus endeth the confusion. I was correct in my assumptions all along.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #89 on: February 28, 2012, 06:05:17 PM »

How about, "Most Holy Theotokos, could you consider possibly helping me out when you get around to it. I mean, I'm surrounded by enemies stronger than I am and will probably die without intervention, but don't go through any trouble on my account" ?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« Reply #90 on: February 28, 2012, 06:27:33 PM »

Here is the accusation against Marian Catholic belief and practice by an Orthodox poster:
But often popular Roman Catholic hyperdulia is rather indistinguishable from worship reserved for God. Orthodox leaders have also denounced Roman Catholic Marian "hypertrophy", so be careful whom you are slamming the door on...
However, I would suggest that the prayer: Most holy Mother of God save us, is quite strong even in the context as quoted above.

Indeed. It was in a similar vein that I asked whether Orthodox speak of "praying to Mary".
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #91 on: February 28, 2012, 07:03:01 PM »

Here is the accusation against Marian Catholic belief and practice by an Orthodox poster:
But often popular Roman Catholic hyperdulia is rather indistinguishable from worship reserved for God. Orthodox leaders have also denounced Roman Catholic Marian "hypertrophy", so be careful whom you are slamming the door on...
However, I would suggest that the prayer: Most holy Mother of God save us, is quite strong even in the context as quoted above.
Indeed. It was in a similar vein that I asked whether Orthodox speak of "praying to Mary".

Mary is not who we are committing ourselves and each other an all our life to. She is not God and she is not the one being referred to as Lord. Even if the context still seems strong to you, it is not really any stronger than the scriptural passages I made reference to.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Aaron M
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: nothing
Posts: 60


« Reply #92 on: February 28, 2012, 10:50:01 PM »

Hmmm, since a Protestant is needed in here... (David Young?  Cleopas?  Keble?)

My being a perpetual half-hearted lazy inquirer, I do not have terribly much invested in the Marian question as applied to Orthodoxy, but I don't at all 'buy' that the Orthodox understanding of her veneration or "powers" is essentially different from the Roman Catholic.  If anything, I think that the Orthodox both in quality (in "poetic" expression) and quantity (the frequency of her mention) give **more** laud to her, and as (or more) explicitly than the Catholic, freely assign imperatives of salvation to her (or so it definitely sounds to me, and I don't see my understanding ever really changing).  Ultimately it means little to me the apologetic that the Orthodox "do not dogmatize" about beliefs concerning her, if in substance they be the same.

I have an Orthodox prayerbook that I sometimes still use when wanting to pray something deep and feeling inclusive of ancient Christian history - usually will just read the Marian prayers as approved to praying them as the other God-addressed ones (not always, but most of the time; Protestant!)

Tackle this one, please:

"Open the door of thy loving-kindness; O blessed Mother of God, so that we who put our hope in thee may not perish.  Through thee may we be delivered from adversities, for thou art the salvation of the Christian people."  (included in 'Troparion' section of "Prayers Before Sleep")

While any Marian veneration is very problematic for Protestants, what in there do you (figurative, any one?) suppose is the most difficult phrase in this prayer?  (And this is the most difficult Marian prayer to me that I have read, Orthodox or Catholic.)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 10:53:44 PM by Aaron M » Logged
William
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #93 on: February 28, 2012, 11:14:48 PM »

I just don't like dogma being declared by Internet posters. I'll leave that to Ecumenical Councils.

And that's what I take issue with; the attitude that you can be sola synoda and Orthodox.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #94 on: February 28, 2012, 11:42:41 PM »

I just don't like dogma being declared by Internet posters. I'll leave that to Ecumenical Councils.

And that's what I take issue with; the attitude that you can be sola synoda and Orthodox.

William, I think you're right to highlight the dangers of Clemente's approach. I sometimes take issue with what I think qualifies as the opposite approach -- namely, taking any theological error repeated over the last few decades or perhaps a century or two and saying it is part of the apostolic faith.

Is there a way of "doing" Orthodoxy which doesn't fall into either of these two extremes?
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #95 on: February 28, 2012, 11:47:43 PM »

How about, "Most Holy Theotokos, could you consider possibly helping me out when you get around to it. I mean, I'm surrounded by enemies stronger than I am and will probably die without intervention, but don't go through any trouble on my account" ?

This is pretty much how I do things. I find passive aggression most effective with Jewish mothers.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,194


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #96 on: February 28, 2012, 11:50:31 PM »

Quote
Is there a way of "doing" Orthodoxy which doesn't fall into either of these two extremes?

Yes.

Grow older - age has a way of improving discernment for most people.

Expose yourself to different "flavors" of Orthodox praxis.

Attend as many church services as you can, and keep your eyes and ears open. Hymnography and iconography are pillars of safe, reliable doctrine and theology.
Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,534



« Reply #97 on: February 29, 2012, 12:12:22 AM »

Hmmm, since a Protestant is needed in here... (David Young?  Cleopas?  Keble?)

My being a perpetual half-hearted lazy inquirer, I do not have terribly much invested in the Marian question as applied to Orthodoxy, but I don't at all 'buy' that the Orthodox understanding of her veneration or "powers" is essentially different from the Roman Catholic.  If anything, I think that the Orthodox both in quality (in "poetic" expression) and quantity (the frequency of her mention) give **more** laud to her, and as (or more) explicitly than the Catholic, freely assign imperatives of salvation to her (or so it definitely sounds to me, and I don't see my understanding ever really changing).  Ultimately it means little to me the apologetic that the Orthodox "do not dogmatize" about beliefs concerning her, if in substance they be the same.

I have an Orthodox prayerbook that I sometimes still use when wanting to pray something deep and feeling inclusive of ancient Christian history - usually will just read the Marian prayers as approved to praying them as the other God-addressed ones (not always, but most of the time; Protestant!)

Tackle this one, please:

"Open the door of thy loving-kindness; O blessed Mother of God, so that we who put our hope in thee may not perish.  Through thee may we be delivered from adversities, for thou art the salvation of the Christian people."  (included in 'Troparion' section of "Prayers Before Sleep")

While any Marian veneration is very problematic for Protestants, what in there do you (figurative, any one?) suppose is the most difficult phrase in this prayer?  (And this is the most difficult Marian prayer to me that I have read, Orthodox or Catholic.)


I believe that it was St. Isaac the Syrian who explained that when we pray for the Theotokos to save us, we are praying that she will accept the annunciation, because without that our salvation would never come to be, and our faith would be in vain. This is not the only way to understand it, of course, but you have to understand that regardless of interpretation, it is implicit that God is the only one who saves in this abstract soteriological sense that you're talking about. The Orthodox seem to get a lot of criticism from Protestants for the fact that they don't focus on the abstract (the question of who saves and how are we saved) but instead choose to focus on that which is experienced (how may we live a Christian life and have communion with God), hence the common but misguided accusation that the Orthodox are Pelagian heretics or the like.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 12:12:56 AM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #98 on: February 29, 2012, 12:18:17 AM »

I believe that it was St. Isaac the Syrian who explained that when we pray for the Theotokos to save us, we are praying that she will accept the annunciation, because without that our salvation would never come to be, and our faith would be in vain.

I believe it was the Wise Ass of Seria, me, who came to the very same conclusion without much reading. And similar thoughts about why we pray for folks departed in general.

 
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,534



« Reply #99 on: February 29, 2012, 12:33:39 AM »

I believe that it was St. Isaac the Syrian who explained that when we pray for the Theotokos to save us, we are praying that she will accept the annunciation, because without that our salvation would never come to be, and our faith would be in vain.

I believe it was the Wise Ass of Seria, me, who came to the very same conclusion without much reading. And similar thoughts about why we pray for folks departed in general.

 

Jeder Esel merkt
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #100 on: February 29, 2012, 12:39:48 AM »

I believe that it was St. Isaac the Syrian who explained that when we pray for the Theotokos to save us, we are praying that she will accept the annunciation, because without that our salvation would never come to be, and our faith would be in vain.

I believe it was the Wise Ass of Seria, me, who came to the very same conclusion without much reading. And similar thoughts about why we pray for folks departed in general.

 

Jeder Esel merkt

Brilliant.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
DavidH
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 531



WWW
« Reply #101 on: February 29, 2012, 12:45:10 AM »

My understanding is that when we ask Mary to "save us" we are not asking her to redeem us, that belongs to Christ alone.

The word save ("sozo") can also be translated as "deliver" us.

So why don't we just say that? Why should we? It's not the way we feel we have to talk in everyday conversation when we say to someone who helps us, "Oh, you really saved me!"

And it is not the way Scripture speaks either when St. Paul tells St. Timothy to continue being faithful so he can save both himself and those who hear him (1 Tim. 4:16) or when we are told that by turning someone from error we save his soul from hell (James 5:20) or when we are told to save others with fear by pulling them out of the fire (Jude 22, 23)

So, saying "Most Holy Theotokos save us!" does not mean "Redeem us!" but "Deliver us!"
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,531


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #102 on: February 29, 2012, 01:27:55 AM »

I believe that it was St. Isaac the Syrian who explained that when we pray for the Theotokos to save us, we are praying that she will accept the annunciation, because without that our salvation would never come to be, and our faith would be in vain.

I believe it was the Wise Ass of Seria, me, who came to the very same conclusion without much reading. And similar thoughts about why we pray for folks departed in general.

 

Jeder Esel merkt
Translation please.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 01:28:25 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,534



« Reply #103 on: February 29, 2012, 01:35:36 AM »

I believe that it was St. Isaac the Syrian who explained that when we pray for the Theotokos to save us, we are praying that she will accept the annunciation, because without that our salvation would never come to be, and our faith would be in vain.

I believe it was the Wise Ass of Seria, me, who came to the very same conclusion without much reading. And similar thoughts about why we pray for folks departed in general.

 

Jeder Esel merkt
Translation please.

Any fool (literally donkey) notices [that].

This is what Johannes Brahms famously remarked when somebody pointed out to him the similarity between the secondary theme of the fourth movement of his First Symphony, and the main theme of the fourth movement of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #104 on: February 29, 2012, 01:56:35 AM »

Hmmm, since a Protestant is needed in here... (David Young?  Cleopas?  Keble?)

My being a perpetual half-hearted lazy inquirer, I do not have terribly much invested in the Marian question as applied to Orthodoxy, but I don't at all 'buy' that the Orthodox understanding of her veneration or "powers" is essentially different from the Roman Catholic.  If anything, I think that the Orthodox both in quality (in "poetic" expression) and quantity (the frequency of her mention) give **more** laud to her, and as (or more) explicitly than the Catholic, freely assign imperatives of salvation to her (or so it definitely sounds to me, and I don't see my understanding ever really changing).  Ultimately it means little to me the apologetic that the Orthodox "do not dogmatize" about beliefs concerning her, if in substance they be the same.

I have an Orthodox prayerbook that I sometimes still use when wanting to pray something deep and feeling inclusive of ancient Christian history - usually will just read the Marian prayers as approved to praying them as the other God-addressed ones (not always, but most of the time; Protestant!)

Tackle this one, please:

"Open the door of thy loving-kindness; O blessed Mother of God, so that we who put our hope in thee may not perish.  Through thee may we be delivered from adversities, for thou art the salvation of the Christian people."  (included in 'Troparion' section of "Prayers Before Sleep")

While any Marian veneration is very problematic for Protestants, what in there do you (figurative, any one?) suppose is the most difficult phrase in this prayer?  (And this is the most difficult Marian prayer to me that I have read, Orthodox or Catholic.)


I believe that it was St. Isaac the Syrian who explained that when we pray for the Theotokos to save us, we are praying that she will accept the annunciation, because without that our salvation would never come to be, and our faith would be in vain. This is not the only way to understand it, of course, but you have to understand that regardless of interpretation, it is implicit that God is the only one who saves in this abstract soteriological sense that you're talking about. The Orthodox seem to get a lot of criticism from Protestants for the fact that they don't focus on the abstract (the question of who saves and how are we saved) but instead choose to focus on that which is experienced (how may we live a Christian life and have communion with God), hence the common but misguided accusation that the Orthodox are Pelagian heretics or the like.

why would we be praying for her to do what she already did?
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #105 on: February 29, 2012, 02:25:41 AM »

ya, I think the charge that the RC's venerate Mary more than the Orthodox is trumped up. They do tend to represent her as stand-alone though in statuary, while you will rarely see her by herself (without the Christ Child) in Orthodox iconography.
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #106 on: February 29, 2012, 02:34:58 AM »

RE Question 4: The danger of offering adoration or divine service to something or someone other than God is, and will be, present no matter what until the end of this age.

I think what the OP is more concerned about is whether or not we open up a door for such activity by encouraging such high veneration of Mary and the Saints.
Logged
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,266



« Reply #107 on: February 29, 2012, 03:55:53 AM »

2. How does it differ from Catholicism?

Well, it doesn't differ too much. I think they have some dogmas in the Catholic Church that some Orthodox see as problematic such as the dogma of her being Co-Redemptrix. My knowledge of that particular dogma isn't very clear so I really couldn't tell you too much. However, I feel that the devotion assigned to St. Mary in the Orthodox Church and Catholic Church isn't very different at all. We Orthodox Christians have a very strong devotion to the Mother of God. Read any Akathist service or canon to her and you will see this very clearly. Orthodox wouldn't have any problem with the rosary for example. Some do, but it really centers around using the imagination during the rosary that Orthodox Christians find problems rather than the prayers themselves.


To be fair, "Co-Redemptrix" isn't dogma yet in the Roman Catholic Church. But it, along with "Co-Mediatrix" could be declared dogma in the future, since there is certainly much popular support for such dogma.

These titles are not typically found in Orthodoxy and certainly not Orthodox dogma.

I was ready to cue the game-show buzzer when Andrew that Catholics have a "dogma of her being Co-Redemptrix".

As far as the possibility that it will be dogmatically defined in the future ... well, naturally I can't prove that it won't be, but I see no reason to expect it.

Which is why I clarified I didn't know much about the idea since I have not read up on that particular belief. I've heard some Orthodox people criticizing Catholics for those ideas and they've always referred to them as dogmas. Thank you both for the clarification. Just the same, I still hold to the position that the way that Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholic veneration is pretty much on the same page.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« Reply #108 on: February 29, 2012, 08:55:12 AM »

I've heard some Orthodox people criticizing Catholics for those ideas and they've always referred to them as dogmas. 

There a movement (a fringe movement some of us would say) that believes that a "fifth Marian dogma" is going to be defined immanently. But even those persons, if cornered, will admit that there's no "fifth Marian dogma" yet.

Thank you both for the clarification.

 Smiley
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #109 on: February 29, 2012, 12:42:07 PM »

I've heard some Orthodox people criticizing Catholics for those ideas and they've always referred to them as dogmas.  

There a movement (a fringe movement some of us would say) that believes that a "fifth Marian dogma" is going to be defined immanently. But even those persons, if cornered, will admit that there's no "fifth Marian dogma" yet.

Thank you both for the clarification.

 Smiley

From what I understand, its can be considered a pious opinion at this stage. Orthodox would not hesitate to say that Mary had a role/ a part to play in the salvation of mankind, via her Fiat, her "yes". Although an RC understanding I think goes so far as to say that she suffered along with Christ, and this has some redemptive value (correct me if i'm wrong), I've not heard this from an Odox perspective, although we talk about her sufferings along with Christ during holy week.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 12:42:47 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #110 on: February 29, 2012, 12:45:28 PM »

saw this from wiki:

The concept of Co-redemptrix refers to an indirect or unequal but important participation by the Blessed Virgin Mary in redemption, notably: that she gave free consent to give life to the Redeemer, to share his life, to suffer with him under the cross, to offer His sacrifice to God the Father for the sake of the redemption of mankind, and to bring about all particular post-assumption graces by way of intercession. The latter concept is included in the concept of Mediatrix which is a separate concept[1] but regularly included by faithful who use the title of co-redemptrix.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,140


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #111 on: February 29, 2012, 03:56:44 PM »

I've heard some Orthodox people criticizing Catholics for those ideas and they've always referred to them as dogmas.  

There a movement (a fringe movement some of us would say) that believes that a "fifth Marian dogma" is going to be defined immanently. But even those persons, if cornered, will admit that there's no "fifth Marian dogma" yet.

Thank you both for the clarification.

 Smiley

From what I understand, its can be considered a pious opinion at this stage. Orthodox would not hesitate to say that Mary had a role/ a part to play in the salvation of mankind, via her Fiat, her "yes". Although an RC understanding I think goes so far as to say that she suffered along with Christ, and this has some redemptive value (correct me if i'm wrong), I've not heard this from an Odox perspective, although we talk about her sufferings along with Christ during holy week.
Her suffering is not considered to be different than St. Paul's suffering when he says "I make up in my body, what is lacking in the suffering of Christ." Of course the is a difficult and enigmatic scripture, but it is there never the less.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
akimel
Fr Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR (Western Rite)
Posts: 519



WWW
« Reply #112 on: February 29, 2012, 07:27:09 PM »

I commend Mother Maria's article "The Veneration of the Mother of God."
Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« Reply #113 on: February 29, 2012, 07:52:01 PM »

I've heard some Orthodox people criticizing Catholics for those ideas and they've always referred to them as dogmas.  

There a movement (a fringe movement some of us would say) that believes that a "fifth Marian dogma" is going to be defined immanently. But even those persons, if cornered, will admit that there's no "fifth Marian dogma" yet.

Thank you both for the clarification.

 Smiley

From what I understand, its can be considered a pious opinion at this stage. Orthodox would not hesitate to say that Mary had a role/ a part to play in the salvation of mankind, via her Fiat, her "yes". Although an RC understanding I think goes so far as to say that she suffered along with Christ, and this has some redemptive value (correct me if i'm wrong), I've not heard this from an Odox perspective, although we talk about her sufferings along with Christ during holy week.
Her suffering is not considered to be different than St. Paul's suffering when he says "I make up in my body, what is lacking in the suffering of Christ." Of course the is a difficult and enigmatic scripture, but it is there never the less.

But, as I understand it, the proposed dogma would say that Mary is Co-redemptrix, not that all of us are.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #114 on: February 29, 2012, 10:28:29 PM »

From what I understand, its can be considered a pious opinion at this stage. Orthodox would not hesitate to say that Mary had a role/ a part to play in the salvation of mankind, via her Fiat, her "yes". Although an RC understanding I think goes so far as to say that she suffered along with Christ, and this has some redemptive value (correct me if i'm wrong), I've not heard this from an Odox perspective, although we talk about her sufferings along with Christ during holy week.
Her suffering is not considered to be different than St. Paul's suffering when he says "I make up in my body, what is lacking in the suffering of Christ." Of course the is a difficult and enigmatic scripture, but it is there never the less.
But, as I understand it, the proposed dogma would say that Mary is Co-redemptrix, not that all of us are.

Can't say I care for how the term sounds, but to be fair to what it sounds like they are trying to say, not all of us said yes at the annunciation and gave birth to the Savior of mankind, even though we are called to imitate that "yes" in our daily lives.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #115 on: February 29, 2012, 11:44:06 PM »

From what I understand, its can be considered a pious opinion at this stage. Orthodox would not hesitate to say that Mary had a role/ a part to play in the salvation of mankind, via her Fiat, her "yes". Although an RC understanding I think goes so far as to say that she suffered along with Christ, and this has some redemptive value (correct me if i'm wrong), I've not heard this from an Odox perspective, although we talk about her sufferings along with Christ during holy week.
Her suffering is not considered to be different than St. Paul's suffering when he says "I make up in my body, what is lacking in the suffering of Christ." Of course the is a difficult and enigmatic scripture, but it is there never the less.
But, as I understand it, the proposed dogma would say that Mary is Co-redemptrix, not that all of us are.

Can't say I care for how the term sounds, but to be fair to what it sounds like they are trying to say, not all of us said yes at the annunciation and gave birth to the Savior of mankind, even though we are called to imitate that "yes" in our daily lives.

what about this part:

"that she gave free consent to give life to the Redeemer, to share his life, to suffer with him under the cross, to offer His sacrifice to God the Father for the sake of the redemption of mankind..."

seems theologically faulty to me from an odox perspective....
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #116 on: February 29, 2012, 11:47:46 PM »

odox

Finally a street worthy way to refer to the Church I am part of.

Thanks.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,140


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #117 on: March 01, 2012, 12:21:05 AM »

I've heard some Orthodox people criticizing Catholics for those ideas and they've always referred to them as dogmas.  

There a movement (a fringe movement some of us would say) that believes that a "fifth Marian dogma" is going to be defined immanently. But even those persons, if cornered, will admit that there's no "fifth Marian dogma" yet.

Thank you both for the clarification.

 Smiley

From what I understand, its can be considered a pious opinion at this stage. Orthodox would not hesitate to say that Mary had a role/ a part to play in the salvation of mankind, via her Fiat, her "yes". Although an RC understanding I think goes so far as to say that she suffered along with Christ, and this has some redemptive value (correct me if i'm wrong), I've not heard this from an Odox perspective, although we talk about her sufferings along with Christ during holy week.
Her suffering is not considered to be different than St. Paul's suffering when he says "I make up in my body, what is lacking in the suffering of Christ." Of course the is a difficult and enigmatic scripture, but it is there never the less.

But, as I understand it, the proposed dogma would say that Mary is Co-redemptrix, not that all of us are.
Every explanation that I have ever read about the title "co-redemptrix" has rested on the notion that we are all "co-redeemers with/in Christ". Mary simply participates in this quality to a higher degree because she is the New Eve that has untied the knot of the old Eve. I doubt that the Catholic Church will every raise the idea to the level of dogma, but if she does do so, I have every bit of faith that it will described in this context.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,140


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #118 on: March 01, 2012, 12:21:52 AM »

From what I understand, its can be considered a pious opinion at this stage. Orthodox would not hesitate to say that Mary had a role/ a part to play in the salvation of mankind, via her Fiat, her "yes". Although an RC understanding I think goes so far as to say that she suffered along with Christ, and this has some redemptive value (correct me if i'm wrong), I've not heard this from an Odox perspective, although we talk about her sufferings along with Christ during holy week.
Her suffering is not considered to be different than St. Paul's suffering when he says "I make up in my body, what is lacking in the suffering of Christ." Of course the is a difficult and enigmatic scripture, but it is there never the less.
But, as I understand it, the proposed dogma would say that Mary is Co-redemptrix, not that all of us are.

Can't say I care for how the term sounds, but to be fair to what it sounds like they are trying to say, not all of us said yes at the annunciation and gave birth to the Savior of mankind, even though we are called to imitate that "yes" in our daily lives.
Well stated.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
podkarpatska
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,020


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #119 on: March 01, 2012, 12:41:03 PM »

I just don't like dogma being declared by Internet posters. I'll leave that to Ecumenical Councils.

And that's what I take issue with; the attitude that you can be sola synoda and Orthodox.

William, I think you're right to highlight the dangers of Clemente's approach. I sometimes take issue with what I think qualifies as the opposite approach -- namely, taking any theological error repeated over the last few decades or perhaps a century or two and saying it is part of the apostolic faith.

Is there a way of "doing" Orthodoxy which doesn't fall into either of these two extremes?

Standard Orthodox response to your question: "It depends."  Wink
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« Reply #120 on: March 01, 2012, 01:22:44 PM »

From Yahoo Answers:

Quote
Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary "the woman with the redeemer." This is because "co" is from the Latin word "cum" which means "with." Therefore, "co-redemptrix" means "woman with the redeemer." Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

- Why is the Catholic Church teaching Mary is the mother of God?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #121 on: March 01, 2012, 01:41:21 PM »

Can't say I care for how the term sounds, but to be fair to what it sounds like they are trying to say, not all of us said yes at the annunciation and gave birth to the Savior of mankind, even though we are called to imitate that "yes" in our daily lives.
what about this part:

"that she gave free consent to give life to the Redeemer, to share his life, to suffer with him under the cross, to offer His sacrifice to God the Father for the sake of the redemption of mankind..."

seems theologically faulty to me from an odox perspective....

Thine own of Thine own we offer unto Thee on behalf of all and for all.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #122 on: March 01, 2012, 02:12:04 PM »

Can't say I care for how the term sounds, but to be fair to what it sounds like they are trying to say, not all of us said yes at the annunciation and gave birth to the Savior of mankind, even though we are called to imitate that "yes" in our daily lives.
what about this part:

"that she gave free consent to give life to the Redeemer, to share his life, to suffer with him under the cross, to offer His sacrifice to God the Father for the sake of the redemption of mankind..."

seems theologically faulty to me from an odox perspective....

Thine own of Thine own we offer unto Thee on behalf of all and for all.

Yes, we say Jesus offers Himself, to Himself.
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #123 on: March 01, 2012, 02:35:15 PM »

Can't say I care for how the term sounds, but to be fair to what it sounds like they are trying to say, not all of us said yes at the annunciation and gave birth to the Savior of mankind, even though we are called to imitate that "yes" in our daily lives.
what about this part:

"that she gave free consent to give life to the Redeemer, to share his life, to suffer with him under the cross, to offer His sacrifice to God the Father for the sake of the redemption of mankind..."

seems theologically faulty to me from an odox perspective....

Thine own of Thine own we offer unto Thee on behalf of all and for all.

Yes, we say Jesus offers Himself, to Himself.

EDIT: Now if you are going to parse that as the Church being the Body of Christ and thus Christ is still doing the offering, that would include Mary as well.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 02:36:47 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #124 on: March 01, 2012, 04:20:07 PM »

Dogmatically, I think what makes the RC understanding of Mary problematic is the doctrine of Immaculate Conception, which itself is hinged upon the doctrine of Original Guilt. The Theotokos must be spared original guilt so that she can give birth to Christ (who must be sinless, and therefore cannot be guilty of Adam's sin). Orthodoxy rejects the notion of original guilt outright. We are not personally guilty of the sin of Adam.

Further, removing the Theotokos from our fallen nature also removed Christ from our fallen nature. That is, they have a different nature, an unfallen human nature. However, as the Fathers teach us, "That which is not assumed is not saved." How can Christ redeem our fallen nature if he does not assume it?

This means that, in Orthodoxy, the Theotokos is human just like we are human. She is the great example, not the great exception. There is nothing special about her. She's just as human (and only as human) as anyone else. We can all attain to similar glory, having the same starting point as her ourselves.

However, the idea that the Theotokos is a mediatrix or even a co-redemptrix, I think, does exist in Orthodoxy. However, this does not imply some active participation in the Passion of Christ. No, this ultimate and salvific act belongs to Christ alone. However, the Theotokos brings Christ into the world, and so it is through her that He accomplishes His work. As we sing at Sunday Matins,

"since Thou hast given birth to Christ, thou hast delivered Adam from his sin, thou has given joy to Eve instead of sadness through the God-Man who was borne of thee..."

It is through the Theotokos that Christ accomplishes these things, and we honor her for that participation. However, nothing in this implies that she participates especially in Christ's saving passion. Further, since she inherits the same fallen human nature as the rest of us, she is also in need of redemption through her Son, just as we are.
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #125 on: March 01, 2012, 04:48:08 PM »

Can't say I care for how the term sounds, but to be fair to what it sounds like they are trying to say, not all of us said yes at the annunciation and gave birth to the Savior of mankind, even though we are called to imitate that "yes" in our daily lives.
what about this part:

"that she gave free consent to give life to the Redeemer, to share his life, to suffer with him under the cross, to offer His sacrifice to God the Father for the sake of the redemption of mankind..."

seems theologically faulty to me from an odox perspective....
Thine own of Thine own we offer unto Thee on behalf of all and for all.
Yes, we say Jesus offers Himself, to Himself.

Actually we say we offer the Eucharist (Christ's Body "which is broken" and Blood "which is shed") to God the Father, that is who that entire anaphora is prayed to.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #126 on: March 01, 2012, 05:03:23 PM »

However, the idea that the Theotokos is a mediatrix or even a co-redemptrix, I think, does exist in Orthodoxy. However, this does not imply some active participation in the Passion of Christ. No, this ultimate and salvific act belongs to Christ alone. However, the Theotokos brings Christ into the world, and so it is through her that He accomplishes His work. As we sing at Sunday Matins,

"since Thou hast given birth to Christ, thou hast delivered Adam from his sin, thou has given joy to Eve instead of sadness through the God-Man who was borne of thee..."

It is through the Theotokos that Christ accomplishes these things, and we honor her for that participation. However, nothing in this implies that she participates especially in Christ's saving passion.

Actually that is one of the reasons why I'm Orthodox, Christ's saving work isn't something that just happens to us, but something that we actively participate in, as Fr Hopko likes to paraphrase St Paul - You can't reign with Him unless you suffer with Him and you can't live with Him unless you die with Him. Also keep in mind, while present at Christ's passion, she watched it happen as a mother watching it happen to her Son.

Quote
Further, since she inherits the same fallen human nature as the rest of us, she is also in need of redemption through her Son, just as we are.

Agree 100%. Just for the record.

As I said earlier, I'm personally uncomfortable with the phrase, even though the teaching behind it can have a good and proper explanation. I would say that this would be one of those things better left as theological opinion and pious expression and not officially dogmatized.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #127 on: March 01, 2012, 05:09:37 PM »

Can't say I care for how the term sounds, but to be fair to what it sounds like they are trying to say, not all of us said yes at the annunciation and gave birth to the Savior of mankind, even though we are called to imitate that "yes" in our daily lives.
what about this part:

"that she gave free consent to give life to the Redeemer, to share his life, to suffer with him under the cross, to offer His sacrifice to God the Father for the sake of the redemption of mankind..."

seems theologically faulty to me from an odox perspective....
Thine own of Thine own we offer unto Thee on behalf of all and for all.
Yes, we say Jesus offers Himself, to Himself.


Actually we say we offer the Eucharist (Christ's Body "which is broken" and Blood "which is shed") to God the Father, that is who that entire anaphora is prayed to.

Are you sure it is referring to the sacrifice and us as the one who offers it?

Every book/podcast i've read/heard explaining the sacrificial offering clearly states that Christ is the one who is offered, the one who offers, and the one who receives.
Logged
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #128 on: March 01, 2012, 05:25:20 PM »

Actually we say we offer the Eucharist (Christ's Body "which is broken" and Blood "which is shed") to God the Father, that is who that entire anaphora is prayed to.
Are you sure it is referring to the sacrifice and us as the one who offers it?

Every book/podcast i've read/heard explaining the sacrificial offering clearly states that Christ is the one who is offered, the one who offers, and the one who receives.

I'm just quoting the prayer in what we say and Who we say it to.

Yes Christ is the Great High Priest Who offers the Sacrifice of Himself, but according to the prayers, we literally remember (make present) Christ's Sacrifice of Himself and offer that up to God the Father as we also offer ourselves up to God to receive and be united to Christ in the Eucharist.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,531


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #129 on: March 03, 2012, 01:15:31 PM »

The tangent regarding whether the Theotokos was born needing the redemption of baptism to live a sinless life has been split off and moved to this location on the Orthodox-Catholic board: We are all (the Theotokos included) born in need of redemption?  What remains here on the Orthodox-Protestant board started as a discussion of whether Catholics and Orthodox worship Mary. Let us please keep our replies focused on this topic as stated in the OP. Thank you.
Logged
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #130 on: March 15, 2012, 08:28:04 PM »

Thank you for mentioning this, Shanghaiski.  I've come to that conclusion myself.  However, I'm a catechumen and have not had the chance to ask my priest about this issue yet.  It is good to know more orthodox affirm this.

So if Mary is without sin how do you reconcile this with the biblical admonition that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? Does this imply Mary is excepted from all and if so how?

We believe she is without voluntary sin. There is, however, involuntary sin. We say in prayers that we sin at every hour, and we ask for God to forgive those sins about which we know and those sins about which we don't know--our perspective is very limited, and sin clouds it. The Mother of Christ our God also needed a savior, like all of us. She is not excepted from humanity. Only Jesus Christ is completely sinless.
Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #131 on: March 15, 2012, 11:12:35 PM »

Thank you for mentioning this, Shanghaiski.  I've come to that conclusion myself.  However, I'm a catechumen and have not had the chance to ask my priest about this issue yet.  It is good to know more orthodox affirm this.

So if Mary is without sin how do you reconcile this with the biblical admonition that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? Does this imply Mary is excepted from all and if so how?

We believe she is without voluntary sin. There is, however, involuntary sin. We say in prayers that we sin at every hour, and we ask for God to forgive those sins about which we know and those sins about which we don't know--our perspective is very limited, and sin clouds it. The Mother of Christ our God also needed a savior, like all of us. She is not excepted from humanity. Only Jesus Christ is completely sinless.

most people will say she was sinless, period.
Logged
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #132 on: March 16, 2012, 03:09:45 AM »

most people will say she was sinless, period.

Dear Ortho_cat,

By saying that, do they mean she was without involuntary sin?  Or is your point rather that most just don't get into specifics? 

If they specifically mean she was without involuntary sin, do you think it is possible for "most orthodox" to be wrong on any given issue?
Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
jckstraw72
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,174



« Reply #133 on: March 16, 2012, 08:49:51 AM »

Ecumenical Councils are not the only way that the Church proclaims her truths. In the service for the Dormition you will hear about the Assumption of Mary -- case closed, really. If you don't want to believe in the Assumption I guess you could just never go to Church on the Dormition...

Also, the Councils themselves proclaimed that they were following the Fathers, so then we know that the Fathers are a source of dogma. Its not like the teachings of the Church became true once the Councils proclaimed it. The truths were always true and taught in the Fathers and liturgical services of the Church.
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #134 on: March 16, 2012, 11:15:51 AM »

most people will say she was sinless, period.

Dear Ortho_cat,

By saying that, do they mean she was without involuntary sin?  Or is your point rather that most just don't get into specifics?  

If they specifically mean she was without involuntary sin, do you think it is possible for "most orthodox" to be wrong on any given issue?

I've attempted to make the distinction before regarding her being sinless from voluntary sin while still being subject to involuntary sin. My viewpoint was rejected by most. Although in Orthodoxy there is a distinction between the two, most people you find will say that Mary was sinless in both aspects. With that being said, no one will throw you under the bus for believing either. It's not dogma by any means...i.e. to what extent/degree she was sinless doesn't affect our salvation.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 11:16:17 AM by Ortho_cat » Logged
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #135 on: March 16, 2012, 03:27:25 PM »

most people will say she was sinless, period.

Dear Ortho_cat,

By saying that, do they mean she was without involuntary sin?  Or is your point rather that most just don't get into specifics? 

If they specifically mean she was without involuntary sin, do you think it is possible for "most orthodox" to be wrong on any given issue?

Undoubtedly. There is a reason the Church has never considered 'majority-rules' voting as a way to determine anything of importance. Infallibility belongs only to Christ and through Him to the Church as a whole, never to a segment no matter how large a segment it might be.

In my experience, most Orthodox have simply never thought about this matter in any kind of systematic way (i.e., why does the Church say 'only Sinless' of Christ, why does it choose 'blameless' here for the Theotokos, what would it mean for our teaching on fallen human nature if the Theotokos really was completely free from sin, etc). There are multiple good reasons for that:

1) The answer to the question has absolutely zero dogmatic value (that is, whether the Theotokos ever sinned or not has no impact on my sin, my salavation or what I need to do about either)

2) Thinking about anyone else's sins (much less the Theotokos') is generally heavily discouraged as spiritually unhealthy. There are a few saints who were really extravagant sinners before their conversion (e.g. St. Paul's persecution of  Christians, St. Mary of Egypt's licentiousness) where we  find value in looking at the contrast as proof of the effectiveness of repentance and the possibility of coming to sanctity however low the starting point, but they  are definitely the exception rather than the rule. I don't know what sins St. Seraphim may have committed--and I don't want to know.

3) There is a strong emotional element here. As we become adopted sons of the Father through our union with the Son, so Orthodox tend to see the Theotokos as our beloved adopted Mother. It's not uncommon for people to think 'my mother's a saint' when she's really just a nice lady. And the fastet way to start a fight with someone is to say something negative about their mother--even when the statement might be  objectively true. So why would any Orthodox ever want to say something negative about our mother the Theotokos--who really is not just a saint but the greatest saint.
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #136 on: March 16, 2012, 04:21:01 PM »

I am honestly agnostic about the issue. I just don't see enough evidence in liturgy or scripture to come to a definitive conclusion regarding the nature of her sinlessness, and the references to such in patristics and writings of the saints seems to be contradicting in the degree or totality of her sinlessness. (As Witega mentioned, it does refer to Christ as the only sinless one in the Divine Liturgy). I don't find it spiritually healthy to meditate on the potential sins of another, especially a saint, but I do consider her to be the holiest woman to have ever lived, and that I believe the Church is abundantly clear on.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 04:21:44 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
theo philosopher
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 315



« Reply #137 on: March 16, 2012, 04:22:49 PM »

I am honestly agnostic about the issue. I just don't see enough evidence in liturgy or scripture to come to a definitive conclusion regarding the nature of her sinlessness, and the references to such in patristics and writings of the saints seems to be contradicting in the degree or totality of her sinlessness. (As Witega mentioned, it does refer to Christ as the only sinless one in the Divine Liturgy). I don't find it spiritually healthy to meditate on the potential sins of another, especially a saint, but I do consider her to be the holiest woman to have ever lived, and that I believe the Church is abundantly clear on.

I think this is the fair view to hold. Did Mary sin? What matters is that she was redeemed by Christ and needed a redeemer. What matters is she was truly the first Christian as she is the first person to have said "yes" to Christ. What matters is we are to follow the blessed Theotokos in her example and willingly bring Christ into our own lives.
Logged

“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #138 on: March 16, 2012, 04:39:21 PM »

I don't find it spiritually healthy to meditate on the potential sins of another, especially a saint, but I do consider her to be the holiest woman to have ever lived, and that I believe the Church is abundantly clear on.

replace 'woman' with 'human who was not Incarnate God' and I don't think every Orthodox, past or present, would fully agree with that sentence.
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #139 on: March 16, 2012, 04:58:19 PM »

I don't find it spiritually healthy to meditate on the potential sins of another, especially a saint, but I do consider her to be the holiest woman to have ever lived, and that I believe the Church is abundantly clear on.

replace 'woman' with 'human who was not Incarnate God' and I don't think every Orthodox, past or present, would fully agree with that sentence.

Well Jesus Himself said that no man was more righteous than John the Baptist...
Logged
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #140 on: March 16, 2012, 06:49:46 PM »

I've attempted to make the distinction before regarding her being sinless from voluntary sin while still being subject to involuntary sin. My viewpoint was rejected by most. Although in Orthodoxy there is a distinction between the two, most people you find will say that Mary was sinless in both aspects. With that being said, no one will throw you under the bus for believing either. It's not dogma by any means...i.e. to what extent/degree she was sinless doesn't affect our salvation.

It's good to know where the majority seems to stand.  But can't anything effect our salvation, depending on our own conscience before God?  Isn't salvation at its core a matter of God's judgment of the motives and intents of each heart, as each heart follows Him alone, more than it is a matter of adherence to certain doctrinal standards?  I don't know the answer to these questions.  I'm relatively new to the orthodox faith.

I do know this much:  given my experience in life, I personally would consider it unsafe to my salvation to change my view simply according to what is rejected or accepted by most modern Christians.  It seems to me that all peoples, even "God's People," struggle with imperfection.  Historically, in the people of God, I see a pattern where there seems to be a smaller remnant that goes against the grain and gets it right more often than the majority.  That doesn't mean I've got to try to be a rebel without a cause.  However, if my mind and heart sincerely lead me in a direction that is contrary to popular opinion, then I don't worry too much about it as long as my own conscience is clean.  This is especially true if the matter is not "dogma" according to holy tradition.  In fact, I would even expect such situations to occur as long as there is sin in the world.

Christ said, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters - even his own life - such a person cannot be my disciple."  I suspect this was said even for us, orthodox Christians, even today, to all of us sinners.  

Growing up as a Southern Baptist, I believed all sorts of false doctrines that everyone or most everyone around me believed, very many of them seemingly sincere, good Christians.  It took me 15 years to realize I had to walk according to the Word of God and my conscience in the Spirit, not popular opinion, not my families conscience, and not even my "spiritual" families opinion.  God only.  I was miraculously healed, had a vision of Christ, and believed at the age of 14.  However, it wasn't for 15 more years that I became willing to reject everything that everyone had ever told me about God, regardless how many of "them" there were, and just accept what God seemed to be revealing to my spirit.  Until I did that I was a Copier more than a Christian.  And thank God I finally became willing.  He saved me, and brought me to the Orthodox Church.

So... long story short.  I'm gonna go with "Mary probably had un-intentional sin."  Smiley   That's just me.  It's not a huge issue for me either.  I'm just trying to understand some of the words I'm saying in the liturgy and not just thoughtlessly repeat what I hear.

All that said, I do believe she chose not to sin though.  I think that is important.  Is that considered dogma?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 06:52:30 PM by acts420 » Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 4 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.477 seconds with 169 queries.