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Author Topic: In what way do I demonstrate love by paying homage to the emperor?  (Read 984 times) Average Rating: 0
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jaroslavkourakin
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« on: February 25, 2012, 07:05:55 AM »

So I just spoke with the Abbot that he should tell me what to do in life. He asked me my education, I said I am a high school dropout because I did not want to be part of the system. He asks if my little revolution was out of hate, and I said yes although it was more for keeping my own dignity in my own eyes. But sure, I hated the system as well. Then he goes on talking, The recluse goes outside of society because of love, and he prays for the society.

That sounds actually perfect in my ears. My question is then why not all Christians are commanded to be recluses in such a manner? Then we would have our own society in the 'wilderness', offering sacrifices to the Lord. For the Israelites did not stay in Egypt under Pharoah, did they? So why should we stay in Egypt?
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« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2012, 09:33:17 AM »

Do what?  Huh Huh

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« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2012, 09:36:47 AM »

For the Israelites did not stay in Egypt under Pharoah, did they? So why should we stay in Egypt?

Christianity isn't a national religion, Judaism - was.
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« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2012, 12:48:10 PM »

My question is then why not all Christians are commanded to be recluses in such a manner? Then we would have our own society in the 'wilderness', offering sacrifices to the Lord. For the Israelites did not stay in Egypt under Pharoah, did they? So why should we stay in Egypt?

Because we are His hands and His feet - because while you are praying, there are many many of us acting on the behalf of the prayers you are giving to Our Father on the behalf of the rest of the world.  Egypt was indeed a prison to the children, but before God delivered them, they resided in Egypt for hundreds of years.  It is up to God - always up to Our Father in Heaven to place us where He wants us to be for His own reasons.  For God so LOVED the 'world' . . .

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<< Matthew 9 >> http://esv.scripturetext.com/matthew/9.htm
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35And Jesus went throughout all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction. 36When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. 37Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; 38therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.”

It's all about love, Jaro.  God made everything. . .everything, everyone is HIS.  If there is anyone or anything to hate, hate evil.  Hate the enemy (the accuser and the fallen angels, and our own flesh that pursues death at every moment) that enslaves those in society.  Society itself is just the product of the fallen nature of man - nothing more.  - but pray for the slaves.  Pray for those of us who are where God put us and struggle in this daily.  We NEED your prayers.  

« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 12:58:11 PM by quietmorning » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2012, 01:11:40 PM »

Think of it this way, in using Egypt as the example.  Moses was chosen by God to save His people way before Moses was even born.  He was raised in Egypt - in the very house of the leader of this society. . . he was the Pharaoh's daughter's adoptive son.  Moses committed murder by HIS 'little revolution'.  In so doing, he helped no one, and he himself became a fugitive. 

While he was a fugitive, he met God in the Bush that did not burn - and God pretty much said, "ok, your 'little revolution' did nothing more than kill a man that was just following orders, but if you will FOLLOW ME. . . I will free your people and my chosen people.  If you will do AS I SAY, I will do this."  (Paraphrasing, please forgive.)

He did as he was told to do.  Moses did not deliver his people, God did. 

When we try to take the staff in our own hands and 'strike the rock' - we strike Christ, Himself.  I refer to when Moses struck the rock when the people needed water.  Because he did this, he was not allowed to go into the promised land.  He sinned against God. 

God hates this enslavement MORE than you do.  He is not a God that loves oppression or governments that destroy their people.  But it is up to HIM to do what is needed. . .not us.  He knows it better than we do.  He knows what will work.  We are blind deaf and dumb.  We can't see what He sees.  He often uses oppression to humble us and bring us closer to Him. . . to remind us to be thankful, for our good, so that we can war against the flesh and win. . .and not lose our eternal souls to a death that is much worse than what we could ever go through here on earth. 

So, Moses. . .was born in the land as a slave. . . was adopted as a son of the land itself, and not only a son but a prince - then through his own volition became a murderer and a fugitive. . .then God sent him BACK into Egypt, but not OF Egypt. . .IN Egypt. . .TO deliver his people by God's hand.  A side note is that Moses was also called the most humble man on earth. . .after he gave up his 'little revolution' . . . and THAT'S when God chose to truly use him in a MIRACULOUS revolution. 
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« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2012, 01:18:45 PM »

Jaroslav--If Quiet morning's responses do not answer your questions, I don't know who can. As we approach Great Lent (Forgiveness Vespers only 29.5 hours from now), I ask for your forgiveness and, as God forgives, I forgive you as well.
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« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2012, 02:46:54 PM »

I have essentially decided to give up my conscious thought. This was the descision a while back but this issue came in the way you could say. Thus I bear no judgement of where I am, and I do not decide where to go.

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

And Amen.
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« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2012, 03:33:31 PM »

I have essentially decided to give up my conscious thought. This was the descision a while back but this issue came in the way you could say. Thus I bear no judgement of where I am, and I do not decide where to go.

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

And Amen.

As with and from your first post - forward, you continue to humble me. Thank you.  Please forgive me if I have hurt or offended you in any way, I am truly sorry.  I can get pretty arrogant . . .and I became so in discussion with you. . .I am sorry.   May the Lord have mercy on us both. 

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« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2012, 03:37:46 PM »

For what it's worth, the Western Roman Empire fell a long time ago, and the Eastern Empire carried on for some centuries after that, but both no longer exist as political state entities (in a conventional sense).

Don't worry yourself too much. There is no Caesar these days, unless you mean Caesar salad... which is nice for after Lent.  Wink Smiley

May the Lord help you and guide you, Jaroslav.
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jaroslavkourakin
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« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2012, 04:34:00 PM »

As with and from your first post - forward, you continue to humble me. Thank you.  Please forgive me if I have hurt or offended you in any way, I am truly sorry.  I can get pretty arrogant . . .and I became so in discussion with you. . .I am sorry.   May the Lord have mercy on us both. 

I'm not offended. Your post with the angel with sword was a particularly striking one, as I felt the "pull" of that message. I didn't trust it to be God, that's why I asked, how do you know if it's an angel and not a devil.

And I did have a minor consultation with the Abbot, and I don't mind his reply.

I will not deny there is a power that can rule the soul in the orthodox Church, I feel it's pull once in a while. But again, I don't trust it entirely. But since I won't be consciously thinking and therefore not doubting, I should be guided rightly as I keep my attention on God. 

For what it's worth, the Western Roman Empire fell a long time ago, and the Eastern Empire carried on for some centuries after that, but both no longer exist as political state entities (in a conventional sense).

Don't worry yourself too much. There is no Caesar these days, unless you mean Caesar salad... which is nice for after Lent.  Wink Smiley

That entirely depends on where you get your news from. The aristocracy hasn't actually disappeared, they have just gone from overt control to covert control.
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« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2012, 10:01:12 PM »

For the Israelites did not stay in Egypt under Pharoah, did they? So why should we stay in Egypt?

Christianity isn't a national religion, Judaism - was.

Boy has history had it wrong for the last 1700 years!
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« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2012, 10:08:41 PM »

As with and from your first post - forward, you continue to humble me. Thank you.  Please forgive me if I have hurt or offended you in any way, I am truly sorry.  I can get pretty arrogant . . .and I became so in discussion with you. . .I am sorry.   May the Lord have mercy on us both. 

I'm not offended. Your post with the angel with sword was a particularly striking one, as I felt the "pull" of that message. I didn't trust it to be God, that's why I asked, how do you know if it's an angel and not a devil.

And I did have a minor consultation with the Abbot, and I don't mind his reply.

I will not deny there is a power that can rule the soul in the orthodox Church, I feel it's pull once in a while. But again, I don't trust it entirely. But since I won't be consciously thinking and therefore not doubting, I should be guided rightly as I keep my attention on God. 

For what it's worth, the Western Roman Empire fell a long time ago, and the Eastern Empire carried on for some centuries after that, but both no longer exist as political state entities (in a conventional sense).

Don't worry yourself too much. There is no Caesar these days, unless you mean Caesar salad... which is nice for after Lent.  Wink Smiley

That entirely depends on where you get your news from. The aristocracy hasn't actually disappeared, they have just gone from overt control to covert control.

There is nothing wrong with you thinking.  That is why God gave you a brain.  And you are correct about the aristocracy.  Keep in mind that freedom comes from within.  I often feel much as you do.  Sometimes in order to develop love for something we have to get away from it.  Some of us are introverts, and an extrovert can no more understand us than a fish can understand an elephant.  The desire to escape the "world" is strong in some of us, and it sent many men into the deserts and forests.  There is nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with hating that which separates us from God.  We must, however, not hate His creation.  There is a difference and not all people understand that.
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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2012, 02:37:07 AM »

Well, to paraphrase what my particularly devout Christian professor said (he's a Catholic, but a sincere Christian regardless), some of us are called to pray (in monasteries, as recluses, etc.) and some of us are called to be in the fray (as people who hold secular occupations but are still devout Christians doing our best to set Christlike examples for others to follow). I believe I am in the latter, with the gifts, talents, and abilities I have (and am said to have--people have long said I am a natural at being a teacher or professor--thus I am trying to become a professor).
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« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2012, 04:22:22 PM »

One can still find traces of the true Gospel in the NT, although it has been covered in nonsense to serve the interest of the state. No worldly authority is ordained by God, because all worldly authority is an abomination. And he carries the sword _entirely_ in vain.

If I have forgiven, and been forgiven, what do I owe any man? For what reason should I be his slave? The statists think they own the world. With their fleshly might they expect intimidate godless people into submission, but they will not intimidate me. They don't own a hectar that God hasn't allowed them to have power over, and not a single person God has not handed into their dominion.

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« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2012, 05:02:54 PM »

So I just spoke with the Abbot that he should tell me what to do in life. He asked me my education, I said I am a high school dropout because I did not want to be part of the system. He asks if my little revolution was out of hate, and I said yes although it was more for keeping my own dignity in my own eyes. But sure, I hated the system as well. Then he goes on talking, The recluse goes outside of society because of love, and he prays for the society.

That sounds actually perfect in my ears. My question is then why not all Christians are commanded to be recluses in such a manner? Then we would have our own society in the 'wilderness', offering sacrifices to the Lord. For the Israelites did not stay in Egypt under Pharoah, did they? So why should we stay in Egypt?

The Egypt typified in the Old Testament is like "the world" of the New Testament, that is, the sum of the passions. There are many who live in the the physical world, but are not of "the world," the sum of the passions. They live and work as many others do, but their inner work and their inner life is quite different. Some struggle for the passions, others struggle against them, and both of these can live either in the wilderness or in cities.

Each person has his or her own calling, to which God is directing them. Not all are suited for eremitical life--this the Fathers state explicitly. Neither are all suited to cenobiticism. Some are called to marriage and fulfill God's commandments through the rearing of children. Others who live in the world unmarried are, in a way, under a different kind of obedience. Each person struggles to know and fulfill his calling. Some have found it, others are still looking. But God will save them all if they turn to Him.
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« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2012, 05:10:51 PM »

I'm not talking about monasticism or hermeticism, I'm talking about living outside worldly jurisdiction, for the simple reason that such jurisdiction is corrupt, and contrary to the Christian way. I do not believe we have to in any way. If we have to preach to people, we can eventually make a visit for the sake of preaching. I think God would give us our own land if we only believed in it.
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« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2012, 05:49:15 PM »

I'm not talking about monasticism or hermeticism, I'm talking about living outside worldly jurisdiction, for the simple reason that such jurisdiction is corrupt, and contrary to the Christian way. I do not believe we have to in any way. If we have to preach to people, we can eventually make a visit for the sake of preaching. I think God would give us our own land if we only believed in it.

He gives us the Kingdom of Heaven. Is this not enough?
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« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2012, 07:14:48 PM »

They don't own a hectar that God hasn't allowed them to have power over, and not a single person God has not handed into their dominion.

This should answer your question.
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« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2012, 07:23:19 PM »

They don't own a hectar that God hasn't allowed them to have power over, and not a single person God has not handed into their dominion.

This should answer your question.

"The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof."
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« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2012, 09:01:13 AM »

If my salvation depends on me kissing the feet of the State, then I think that is a salvation I can skip. However, the is no condemnation in Christ Jesus, and Forgive, and you will be forgiven. That being said, I don't really see how being a servant of the State is a demonstration of forgiveness, because the State is unforgiving.

God owns every inch of the strip club as well. Doesn't mean we should be in it.
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« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2012, 09:18:45 AM »

You do realize that no matter how try to work out your idea into real life, there will still be some form of government with human authority that you must submit to, unless you desire to be the one holding the authority over everyone else. There is no way around it.
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« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2012, 09:48:00 AM »

You do realize that no matter how try to work out your idea into real life, there will still be some form of government with human authority that you must submit to, unless you desire to be the one holding the authority over everyone else. There is no way around it.

Or, I can live under the providence of God.

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You will hide them in the shelter of your presence; from the trouble of the children of men you will hide them.

"Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." William Penn
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« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2012, 10:32:26 AM »

You do realize that no matter how try to work out your idea into real life, there will still be some form of government with human authority that you must submit to, unless you desire to be the one holding the authority over everyone else. There is no way around it.

Or, I can live under the providence of God.

What if God's providence is for you to live under an earthly authority?
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« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2012, 10:39:44 AM »

What if God's providence is for you to live under an earthly authority?

Then I am being punished for sin, and I have not been forgiven.
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« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2012, 11:03:49 AM »

What if God's providence is for you to live under an earthly authority?

Then I am being punished for sin, and I have not been forgiven.

Would you care to elaborate?  I'm having trouble connecting the dots on this one.
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« Reply #25 on: February 29, 2012, 11:24:13 AM »

Jaro, did you read today's reading?  Isaiah 2:3-11.  You referenced beating plows to plow shears a bit ago.  When Jesus Christ came one of the arguments that I hear from my brother - who is Jewish is that He did not deliver Israel from Roman rule, therefore He could not be the Messiah.  Yet, Israel stands TODAY as a sovereign country - it is no longer under the rule of another gentile nation.  And as sick as it sounds, if Christ did not come and die for us and for Israel, Israel would be a scattered nation to this day.

There is the first coming of Christ, and the second coming of Christ.  The first brought us His Holy Spirit, the second a new world.  It is in THIS new world where the kings and leaders of THIS world FAIL and are laughed at - and no one at that time will take up the leadership role, but Christ.  

Until then, we still live in a fallen world.  A world of princes and principalities - a world of great darkness.  At this time, we have SEEN a great light.  In the coming age we will be redeemed by that great light.  

Seasons come and go.  His seasons are not our seasons.  We are creatures of linier time.  

Think of this. . .it took ONE man (speaking of the man/God, Jesus Christ) to bring redemption to ALL of mankind.  It only takes ONE.  Just ONE.  God is ONE - and He can do anything.  I am nothing but dust. . .you are nothing but dust. . .both of us taking on the mantle of Christ, the filling of Christ . . . who knows what God will do or how. . .but I know for a fact that it won't be by my might. . . or my strength. . .or yours. It's by His Spirit. . . Who knows the very heart and mind of God.  

So right idea. . . but it's season has not come.  This is the season we are in. This is the time we are in.  Be thankful for this, it is IN THIS that all things will bear fruit for THAT season.  

The book of Revelations is an incredible book of God glorifying His Kingship and setting all things RIGHT.  We can't do it.  Only He can do it.  

Now in the meantime. . .do I pay taxes?  Do my sons go to war if they are drafted?  I live as a foreigner on this planet.  My home is elsewhere.  Do I pay rent while I am here?  Until evil is defeated and thrown into the lake of fire, evil has this world.  We are in it, not of it.  Do I pay taxes to evil, then?  

Yes.  

Why?  Why would I do such a thing?  "In what way do I demonstrate love by paying homage to". . .EVIL?  ("the emperor?")

Matthew 5:9 ESV
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“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

Matthew 5:13 ESV
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“You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people’s feet.

So we are to maintain or restore peace, if we want to be the sons / daughters of our Father in heaven - not for ourselves but for those who are lost in this world.  We already have the Peace from above in us through The Holy Spirit. . .but that Peace is to go out into the world.  The great commission was not 'go into a field and be 'off the grid' until I come again.'  The great commission was:  Matthew 28:16-20 ESV
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“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

They went to John the Baptist but Jesus went to them.  

So will I pay taxes.  Yes.  Why?  Because it gives me ownership of this time for this moment and in doing so I can turn what is evil into good by being the salt.  

Now if I take this great commission He gave to us and rest on my laurels. . .and just pay taxes and sit at home watching TV all day and let life revolve around me?  Then I become the very evil He seeks to destroy. . . and God help me, because I will be destroyed right along with that evil I so partake.  I've become flavorless.  Without use, and only good for being trodden under feet.  

So each of us have a choice what we will do in becoming sons of God. . .in the Great Commission.  Some pray because HE SO LOVES THE WORLD.  Some DO because HE SO LOVES THE WORLD.  Some are martyred BECAUSE HE SO LOVES THE WORLD.  Some go here and there spreading His Gospel, BECAUSE HE SO LOVES THE WORLD.  

If I love HIM. . .Then the very things important to HIM are important TO ME.  If I don't love HIM, then I do not care, and I become nothing more than a leech.  If I don't love Him, then I insist that He take MY agenda of MY understanding. . . instead of understanding that His ways are higher than my ways and I may not understand them, but they are PERFECT.  If I love Him, I will ask Him to break my heart with what breaks His, to move my heart in His direction. . .to help me to submit to Him in every action of every moment of every day - and know that it is only in Him that I can do this.

So, in His time, when He comes again to judge the living and the dead, all things will be made new and RIGHT.  Evil is defeated.  Kings fall and are discarded, and the ONE KING reigns.  

But He does it, we don't.  We pray and ask for His coming. . .the Bride cries out, "Lord Come!"  We walk in the salt that we are and do not become useless slugs.  We are the light of the world, we do not hide in bushels. . .we shine our light before men. (Matthew 5:14) .  . . .we do not hide. . . we pay to Caesar what belong to Caesar, we give to God what is God's. . .in this we don't serve two masters.  We serve one master and pay RENT to the other.  We live in his dominion until his dominion is overthrown trusting God every day and in every way to do so, as it is not ours to do.  If we firmly believe it is ours to do, then we make ourselves god.  We know that even as we pay tax - that we are actually giving it to God because God is sovereign were as these  other guys just THINK they are the bosses. 

With this, I'm going to excuse myself from these conversations, as I am weak and struggle with pride and vanity.  Please forgive me.  I will continue to pray for you, please pray for me, a sinner.

 


« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 11:37:23 AM by quietmorning » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: February 29, 2012, 11:46:46 AM »

What if God's providence is for you to live under an earthly authority?

Then I am being punished for sin, and I have not been forgiven.

Would you care to elaborate?  I'm having trouble connecting the dots on this one.

God disciplines those He loves, as a father disciplines his sons.  We are not punished - we are disciplined.  There's a difference.  Punishment holds no hope for learning the truth. . .it's setting someone in prison and throwing away the key.  Discipline teaches, hones, brings us back to Him in truth.  

If someone has not been forgiven it is because they have not forgiven.  God is all merciful, and even in our unforgiveness, He disciplines us to bring us to that forgiveness that we might be forgiven.  

He does things for more reasons than just to discipline.  All men are sinners and have fallen short.  For some, they go through extreme hardship so that they might share in the suffering of Christ, so that they might know Him in a way few others do.  For some, they are there solely so that someone who needs them to be there will have them when they need them.  Because God so loves us. . .there are a myriad of other reasons. . .and often it's a who knows, but in all, perhaps we'll be humble enough to take it always as His love for us, and only for that reason.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 11:48:50 AM by quietmorning » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: February 29, 2012, 03:46:57 PM »

The Bible says the Tribe of Dan will come and Judge the entire world according to their wicked judgement. I would rather be in the Church that is spared the hour of trial. But that will be pretty hard if one lives under worldly authority.

People have very little spine. The cry freedom of speech and religion today, but should a power just give them only a little intimidation, they would not do much about it. Especially if there is economic and geopolitical turmoil. I really don't see why I should perish at the hands of the wicked. Especially when supposed Christians never understood faith and life under God.

I'm still surprised though that the Cathars were massacred, and the Church that killed them gets to stand for at least 1000 years. But they didn't have everything straight it seems either. "Kill them all. God will know his own". Whoa.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 03:57:10 PM by jaroslavkourakin » Logged
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