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Question: would anybody tell me about the 'Assyrian Church' and it's stand on Christology?
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deacon Mikias(micah)
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« on: February 24, 2012, 04:55:10 AM »

would anybody tell me about the 'Assyrian Church' and it's stand on Christology?
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« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2012, 10:52:02 PM »

Welcome to the forum!   Smiley

If you click on the "Church of the East" tag, below, you'll find other threads about that particular Church.
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« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2012, 03:37:17 AM »

would anybody tell me about the 'Assyrian Church' and it's stand on Christology?

Welcome to the forum!



This is a very complex chart of Syrian Neoplatonic Christology (Assyrian Church of the East Christology). As you can see, A nature exists in general subsistences, which are individuated as persons.

In other words, they believe that there are two subsistences called "Jesus Christ" and "the Word/the Son" who shared the titles "lord" and "son" in one person. The two subsistences combine to form "the Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God".

This is alien to Roman Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Christology.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 03:37:58 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2012, 06:16:28 AM »

would anybody tell me about the 'Assyrian Church' and it's stand on Christology?

Welcome to the forum!



This is a very complex chart of Syrian Neoplatonic Christology (Assyrian Church of the East Christology). As you can see, A nature exists in general subsistences, which are individuated as persons.

In other words, they believe that there are two subsistences called "Jesus Christ" and "the Word/the Son" who shared the titles "lord" and "son" in one person. The two subsistences combine to form "the Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God".

This is alien to Roman Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Christology.

It's not alien to Reformed Protestantism.
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2012, 03:47:20 PM »

It's not alien to Reformed Protestantism.
Especially the Extra Calvinisticum.
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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2012, 04:17:29 PM »

It's not alien to Reformed Protestantism.
Especially the Extra Calvinisticum.

I read that as Extra Calvinism, as in "Reformed Protestantism: Now with Extra Calvinism!"
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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2012, 10:36:59 PM »

It's not alien to Reformed Protestantism.
Especially the Extra Calvinisticum.

I read that as Extra Calvinism, as in "Reformed Protestantism: Now with Extra Calvinism!"

It's a word specifically in regards to Calvin's Christology and maybe also his interpretation of the Eucharist.
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« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2012, 04:32:41 AM »

But i am pretty sure i red that it is called a Nestorian church in the east. i just can't figure it out how and when the church been considered in this way.
 in christ
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« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2012, 04:39:52 AM »

But i am pretty sure i red that it is called a Nestorian church in the east. i just can't figure it out how and when the church been considered in this way.
 in christ
Deacon Mikias,

A lot of Christians in Persia, East Syria, and Arabia had a Christology that used language easily exploited by the heretic Nestorius, and his better-meaning predecessors, Theodore and Diodore. When Nestorius was anathematized, his followers influenced the Church of the East, which was geographically and politically isolated by the Persian Empire and later by Islam.

The main controversy occurred in the 5th Century.

You'll find that in many instances of a great heresy, the heretics find enclaves on the fringes of the empire or the "civilized" world.

« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 04:46:13 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2012, 06:59:26 AM »

 big thanks Nicholas, but all u meant was they accepted the chistological formula of nestorius,the heretic. wasn't it?
 In Christ
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« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2012, 08:30:35 AM »

The Church of the East is hardly influenced by Nestorius. The main sources of their Christology have always been Theodore of Mopsuestia and Diodore.
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« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2012, 02:16:04 PM »

big thanks Nicholas, but all u meant was they accepted the chistological formula of nestorius,the heretic. wasn't it?
 In Christ
They were also heavily influenced by Manichean gnosticism, which explains their traditionally extreme ascetical practices (I am not sure if this remains so today) and their Christology was susceptible to heresy because they defined nature and person in a really really vague and confused manner, poorly blending semitic and platonic thought.
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« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2012, 02:17:30 PM »

The main sources of their Christology have always been Theodore of Mopsuestia and Diodore.
Plus the various native persian and iraqi oddballs that Rafaa enlightened us about.
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« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2012, 03:56:44 PM »

I'm still not sure I understand the difference between Qnoma and Parsopa in their theology. Can anyone enlighten me here?
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« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2012, 05:40:01 PM »

The main sources of their Christology have always been Theodore of Mopsuestia and Diodore.
Plus the various native persian and iraqi oddballs that Rafaa enlightened us about.

From what I understand though, he recanted all what he thought the Assyrian Church believed, since he's not even Assyrian or part of the Church of the East.  In fact, if anything, he seems to have recanted EVERYTHING he wrote here in the forums.  I say this only because on facebook, he continually makes public apologies for everything he said.

So I suppose we'll have to wait for an Assyrian member to share with us his/her thoughts to make that type of judgment.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 05:40:42 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2012, 05:45:00 PM »

I'm still not sure I understand the difference between Qnoma and Parsopa in their theology. Can anyone enlighten me here?

Supposedly, Qnoma is what is translated into Greek as Hypostasis and Parsopa translated into Person (Prosopon).  From what I can gather, Qnoma is the individualization or the actual "thing" that an essence represents and Parsopa is literally a mask, an external representation of the thing.  Very subtle differences it seems.  Nevertheless, Nestorians cannot believe in a hypostatic union, or a union that leads to "One Qnume," and they consider the union as a "prosopic" union, only an external union based on appearance, but a sharing of titles as well as a union based on will, which some theologians do say is a characteristic of Nestorianism that also has a built-in Monothelitism in it.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Fr. John Romanides does an excellent study on Theodore of Mopsuestia's Monothelitism, where pretty much all humans are destined to be part of the divine will, just that Jesus the man was born with that capability already being part of the divine will of the Word, whereas we have to develop it by abolishing our own human will until it is actually abolished.  This also leads to an all-out apocatastasis, that in the end, eventually all human wills will be abolished even by that eternal fire.  And so, it's not surprising to find in the history of the Assyrian Church a belief in not merely hopeful, but actual apocatastasis.
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« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2012, 10:15:52 PM »

The main sources of their Christology have always been Theodore of Mopsuestia and Diodore.
Plus the various native persian and iraqi oddballs that Rafaa enlightened us about.

At least two of those "oddballs" are recognized as Saints in my Church, St. Isaac & St. John Saba.

I know I'm in the minority here, but I very much respect the Assyrian people and their Church. And hope one day our Churches can have a fruitful dialogue with them.
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« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2012, 02:20:44 AM »

The main sources of their Christology have always been Theodore of Mopsuestia and Diodore.
Plus the various native persian and iraqi oddballs that Rafaa enlightened us about.

At least two of those "oddballs" are recognized as Saints in my Church, St. Isaac & St. John Saba.

I know I'm in the minority here, but I very much respect the Assyrian people and their Church. And hope one day our Churches can have a fruitful dialogue with them.

They weren't oddballs because they were Persian and Iraqi, they were oddballs who were Persian and Iraqi.

Not talking about St. Isaac and/or St. Ephraim or St. John.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 02:21:21 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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